We're operating in Manhattan and a company approached us to renovate their 7000 sq.ft office space. We will be producing drawings, renderings, plans and specifications up to a design development set for an AOR to review and file. We will then produce an interior construction document set based upon final finishes, furniture and approved drawings.
Anyone have any insight or a resource on contract templates for design services for unlicensed offices?
Lol @ ‘certified’ interior designer. That is also meaningless in this context. The only ones capable of getting a permit for the described job in NYC are a licensed architect or licensed engineer. Speaking of, what kind of fit out is this? 7K SF of commercial space is likely going to require engineering services too which will invariably affect your light fixtures and other designed elements.
No licensed professional in their right mind is just going to ‘review and stamp’ an unlicensed outside party’s drawings. We get drawings from ‘designers’ all the time and they are never even close to ready or prepared for permitting. OP can’t be liable for anything because OP has no license. And no I don’t know any lawyers who write contracts for unlicensed designers because I’ve only done work at licensed architecture firms and utilized those firms’ contracts or AIA contracts, which pertain to licensed professionals.
Don’t get salty when a bunch of licensed professionals explain to you the ins and outs of licensing and contracts when you come onto this board asking questions about how to garner fee whilst avoiding or not bothering to be licensed. Just get licensed if you’re so clever and then you can utilize the AIA docs with amendments as desired for your situation. None of the verbiage in there will be relevant if you aren’t licensed though. That’s sort of the whole point of the license and the contracts going together. But hey you’re really ‘creative’ and apparently us lame architects of record haven’t got a creative bone in our bodies so maybe you can creatively craft a contract for yourself.
So... you don't have a license to practice architecture?
Nov 29, 19 3:32 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
which part? I'm thinking the whole "contract templates for design services for unlicensed offices" indicates the op is running a drafting service, not a licensed practice.
In my state of Washington, one may not design anything above 4000sqft and that’s not residential in use.
You’re talking about a commercial remodel, which will likely require a licensed professional. Although I don’t know about the rules in NY - most states have pretty similar thresholds for design services. The issue comes down to whether you understand exiting, fire and life safety, which “lay-people” haven’t learned about.
We’re a design studio. Drafting is part of our services. We’re a collaborative with full time positions at larger architecture offices elsewhere. We offer conceptual design and drafting services to be passed onto the owners AOR for their review.
Is your client aware that your business is not a licensed architectural firm? It would be prudent to include this information both to your potential client and in your contract. Your company may not produce the construction documents, the AOR will produce the construction & permit documents based on your ‘design set’ and file those documents with the DOB. The AOR will be (or ought to be) responsible for construction administration services as well, as they will later be responsible for closing out the permit which is under their license. While what you’re describing is not uncommon or unheard of, you don’t seem to know the basics and it would be in your best interest to identify the AOR as soon as possible and confer with a lawyer, preferably one versed in design services, to draft the contract for you. Also bear in mind the client/owner will need to sign a contract directly with the AOR for those separate services requiring a license, since your firm cannot legally proved said services. There is no scale of project in New York City for which an unlicensed designer is allowed to legally provide design services. Residential projects under a certain size OUTSIDE of NYC are possible without a license, but never in the city, never commercial. Too many people, too much liability.
Yes, our client is well aware that we offer conceptual design services and that they will need an AOR to file, permit and sign off the project. We will be producing certain aspects of the interior construction documents that relate to custom decorative fixtures and millworker which do require a permit to construct.
Yes, I understand the basics of project management and contracts. I’m not sure how you gathered that I do not? Noted on your advice regarding a lawyer. Do you happen to have a name of one?
The long and short is this; what you seek, exists in all likelihood as an interior designer, look and see what they use, because the specifics of your question don't exist, and you will need to create your own. That is of course IDs are not required to be licensed in NYS. Here's my question; why do the thing, if you don't know how to do the thing? Architecture isn't only about design, it's about the hard stuff that no one likes; contracts.
Nov 29, 19 8:59 pm ·
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apx9101
I sure hope architects aren't approaching work based soley on what they know how to do. It's called a "practice" of a reason. You should be always learning as an architect.
We get plenty of works from clients who choose the cheap option first by hiring drafting services from unlicensed folks... then realize they can't get permits or are stuck with garbage docs. These clients, often tenants of our larger clients, come running to us for solutions only to be met with full arch service fees.
Nov 29, 19 11:00 pm ·
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apx9101
It’s also true that clients are unimpressed with their architects and seek creative direction and lateral thinking. How doe
s your winning work relate to the topic of the thread?
Nov 29, 19 11:04 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
because we get work from people after they go the cheaper way and hire non-licensed folks thinking they can save a few bucks. We can do creative just as well as anyone else. That's the easy part.
Nov 29, 19 11:19 pm ·
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apx9101
It’s not about cheaper. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And if creative is simply a line item to you then therein highlights the problem.
Nov 29, 19 11:23 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I actually do know a thing or two (or three) about this. I see lots of projects go to shit because people pick cheap unlicensed folks who then produce unusable docs because of their lack of experience. I don't mind it, more work for me. Picked up 2 projects like this earlier today (not kidding here either) but we're likely to turn those away. Too busy.
Nov 29, 19 11:28 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
NS, don't you just love when people come here with questions, and then proceed to know evvvvvverything, but the answer to their own question?
Nov 30, 19 1:05 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
yes Sir.
Nov 30, 19 1:10 pm ·
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apx9101
What I love most is the absurd attitude from the clearly disenchanted. Totally zombie architects angry from a place of judgement and top down linear thinking.
Listen Muppet, no disenchantment here, just laughing at the clearly millennial sense of entitlement that asks for real professionals to parachute into a problem that you're clearly not capable of managing yourself.
Nov 30, 19 2:03 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
This is fantastic.
Nov 30, 19 2:17 pm ·
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apx9101
I appreciate critical comments but this post is not about your subjectivity and generational politics. You have no knowledge of my experience or my capabilities. We don't need trolling. If your opinion is that designers should not engage in commissioned work unless are licensed then just state that and move on. Be an example of that sophistication and professionalism you are unsuccessfully trying to enforce and don't call people names.
The OP’s lack of experience is evident in the title of this thread. Not to mention his posts.
Nov 30, 19 3:20 pm ·
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joseffischer
AIA provides standard contracts... they're not free. If you aren't familiar with bridging contracts between firms and/or AoR contracts with their consultants, I'd start there. As a "not-architect" I'd assume you'll want to be considered a consultant. Further note, yes, consultants produce drawings that eventually go into the CD set, including engineers, interior design, kitchen consultants, etc, all of which, legally, have been coordinated by the architect of record.
We will be working with a certified interior design office who has a solid working relationship with the building architect. Thanks for the helpful comments.
Nov 30, 19 12:03 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Then why are you needed then?
Nov 30, 19 1:10 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
NS, information that would've been helpful to know from the start, but what do I know, I've only been doing this fur twenty years.
Nov 30, 19 1:17 pm ·
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apx9101
Process and philosophy behind a task. Architecture is not your contractors permit requirement.
Nov 30, 19 1:31 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I know what those words mean, but I don’t think you do.
just a letter agreement should be fine. you can pick carpet color and pendant lights, but you're not really responsible for anything.
be very clear on what you're responsible for and what you're not responsible for. ultimately the architect will be responsible for life safety, exiting, accessibility, and all that, so spell that out in your contract. when you hand off your floor plan, they may need to change it. account for that coordination in your schedule and fees.
The AIA documents have the ultimate loophole: the The AOR is responsible for coordinating all of the owner's consultants... this includes design architects. However, the AOR must have a separate contract with the Owner and the design architect cannot pass the services of the AOR through.
So, if the OP joined an architecture office and did exactly what he is doing now but had his work signed of by someone in the office with a liscense it would be quite OK? He is having his work signed of by someone with a liscense. I don't see any difference except he is doing the creative part that he would most likely not be allowed to do in an architecture office. Good for him.
Rick- what makes you think you are an expert? Every time a licensure questions comes forth on this forum, you pounce on it as if you're the authority. I could understand if this is how you approached a question on licensing in Oregon, but what I don't get is the level of confidence and importance you give yourself as a seeming authority on practice for all states when you aren't licensed in any of them.
Nov 30, 19 5:53 pm ·
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apx9101
We are not using the title architect. We are not architects.
Nov 30, 19 6:18 pm ·
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apx9101
Thank you. This is Very helpful. We will consult accordingly with the owners chosen AOR.
Nov 30, 19 6:32 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Rick... people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks... you're calling yourself a "building designer". In my book, that's walking a fine line...
Nov 30, 19 6:44 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
and I don't care what the law says- let me ask you: who else designs buildings? Architects and Engineers- right? You're neither, so to call yourself a building designer is really pushin' it.
Nov 30, 19 6:45 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Its not a protected title, but it sure as hell would make one believe you are either an architect or an engineer, and THAT is illegal...
Nov 30, 19 6:55 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Rick, do what you gotta do man. I just have no idea how you find clients...
Nov 30, 19 7:49 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
I mean I can only imagine: you get some bottom of the barrel client, who is clueless, and you
Nov 30, 19 7:51 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
you are the cheepest and most willing around.
Nov 30, 19 7:51 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Any legitimate owner would invest in a real and licensed architect and engineer, regardless if the building is exempt or not. No wonder your fees are so low.
Nov 30, 19 7:57 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
LOL Rick-
Nov 30, 19 8:42 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Im just curious: why would anyone who is willing to invest upwards of a half a million dollars NOT go with a licensed architect? Your pricing has everything to do with having a contract in the first place.
Nov 30, 19 8:44 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
what was your highest contract?
Nov 30, 19 8:51 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
what was your biggest construction budget?
Nov 30, 19 10:45 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
RickyB, how many half-million dollar building design projects do you handle per year?
Dec 2, 19 8:25 am ·
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Flatfish
7307 does not limit the services of interior designers. It's "Special Provisions" governing what types of projects can be undertaken by joint partnerships. There is no dollar limit or project size limit on interior design projects. As long as they don't make structural changes they are not architectural services, and none of the statutes pertaining to architects and architectural services apply.
New York specifically allows interior designers to provide these services, on projects of any size and budget:
layouts and planning of interior construction
furnishings and fixtures
cabinetry, lighting and finishes
schematic design and development
space planning
complete interior design specifications
working drawings
project monitoring and post-occupancy review
other aspects of interior construction not materially related to the
main structural building components or systems
Lol @ ‘certified’ interior designer. That is also meaningless in this context. The only ones capable of getting a permit for the described job in NYC are a licensed architect or licensed engineer. Speaking of, what kind of fit out is this? 7K SF of commercial space is likely going to require engineering services too which will invariably affect your light fixtures and other designed elements.
No licensed professional in their right mind is just going to ‘review and stamp’ an unlicensed outside party’s drawings. We get drawings from ‘designers’ all the time and they are never even close to ready or prepared for permitting. OP can’t be liable for anything because OP has no license. And no I don’t know any lawyers who write contracts for unlicensed designers because I’ve only done work at licensed architecture firms and utilized those firms’ contracts or AIA contracts, which pertain to licensed professionals.
Don’t get salty when a bunch of licensed professionals explain to you the ins and outs of licensing and contracts when you come onto this board asking questions about how to garner fee whilst avoiding or not bothering to be licensed. Just get licensed if you’re so clever and then you can utilize the AIA docs with amendments as desired for your situation. None of the verbiage in there will be relevant if you aren’t licensed though. That’s sort of the whole point of the license and the contracts going together. But hey you’re really ‘creative’ and apparently us lame architects of record haven’t got a creative bone in our bodies so maybe you can creatively craft a contract for yourself.
So you do work with designers who submit design drawings to you. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience? What are those contracts like? That's been my question this entire time.
This particular project is an office space for an 18 person start(ed) up. It's a graphic-app design company.
Nov 30, 19 6:13 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
Wrong, archinine. There are several architects who will gladly be executive architects, which is yes, to essentially review and stamp drawings. Sorry your licensure isnt actually worth too much.
We don’t have contracts with the non licensed people supplying design intent drawings. Nor have I seen their contracts. The contracts between AOR and unlicensed designers are both directly with the client. Same way I wouldn’t see a clients contract with a contractor. It’s not in my business’ purview. I’m not describing a ‘bad experience’ in receiving unprepared drawings, I’m describing the experience of any typical AOR, and part of the reason said AOR is hired to begin with. Have you ever worked in a licensed firm? Have you ever prepared permit drawings under the guidance of a licensed professional? No offense but you sound kind of clueless/inexperienced. Get licensed. This will all make more sense once you do.
Dec 1, 19 6:23 pm ·
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joseffischer
Point of Order, your standard CA responsibilities should include receiving and reviewing the O/C contract, reviewing just for coordination of dates, etc. One could go to the first OAC meeting and just assume the schedule and schedule of values and other documents were all made in accordance with the contracts... but I'd argue that wouldn't be best practice.
rick, just stop. I’m in the middle of my exams, studying contracts daily, and even I can tell much of what you’re saying is not accurate.
Dec 1, 19 9:24 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Most residential projects on Park Avenue that are led by and interior designer exceed 10,000,000.
Dec 2, 19 9:27 am ·
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Non Sequitur
10K in NYC gets you what? A couple door knobs?
Dec 2, 19 9:40 am ·
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Flatfish
Rick is fundamentally confusing statutes regarding pass-through of services, with rules regarding what services interior designers may provide.
There is no $ limit on projects that an unlicensed person can do, if they involve only interior design and not "construction materially related to the main structural building components or systems".
These are tasks that NYS explicitly states can be provided by an interior designer on any project, of any size:
layouts and planning of interior construction
furnishings and fixtures
cabinetry, lighting and finishes
schematic design and development
space planning
complete interior design specifications
working drawings
project monitoring and post-occupancy review
other aspects of interior construction not materially related to the
main structural building components or systems
The OP hasn't described anything that doesn't fit into this list.
Dec 2, 19 9:56 am ·
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Flatfish
As for the OP's original question: I would recommend ASID's commercial contracts.
The OP is (or hopes to be) “working with a certified interior design office”. I wasn’t aware that there was a level below that.
Dec 2, 19 10:46 am ·
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Flatfish
Certification and registration of interior designers is voluntary in NY. A "certified interior designer" and an uncertified/unregistered interior designer are both allowed to work on interior design projects of any budget and size. The difference between "certified interior designer" and uncertified interior designer is that the latter is registered with the state by submitting minimum education and training documentation, so is allowed to call themselves certified. It's supposed to help the public in selecting a well-qualified designer.
Rick's statement that "interior design is under the scope of architectural services in New York when the project exceeds $10K in NYC or $20K outside NYC" is incorrect. Interior design is not under the scope of architectural services in New York. The thing he keeps quoting is a dollar threshold that governs types of architectural corporations, and architects' involvement in pass-through services. It's not a limitation on what interior designers (certified or not) are allowed to do.
Dec 2, 19 11:01 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
"Interior design is not under the scope of architectural services in New York". Wrong:
Dec 2, 19 11:24 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/archguide-b2.htmWhile an architect may retain an interior designer as a consultant, or have an interior designer on staff, and pass on those services to the client, an interior designer or firm may not pass on architectural or engineering services to the client. There is nothing to prevent an interior design firm from having an architect on staff to participate or assist in the provision of interior design services, however, even if the architect has ownership in the interior design firm, the firm itself is still not authorized to provide architectural services.
Dec 2, 19 11:24 am ·
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Flatfish
That has to do with pass-through services between architects and interior designers. Interior designers can't practice architecture, but the practice of interior design is a separately defined profession in NY. The tasks I posted above are directly pasted from the statutes governing the practice of interior design.
Dec 2, 19 11:26 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
Yeah, because they illegally get their drawings rubber stamped by a willing licensed architect.
Dec 2, 19 11:29 am ·
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Flatfish
No, their drawings don't need to be stamped unless they contain structural modifications.
Dec 2, 19 11:31 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
Not if you're in NYC. Alterations require Licensed Architects or Engineers.
Condo Boards often require it too.
Dec 2, 19 12:22 pm ·
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Bloopox
It's been a few years since I worked in NYC, but my recollection is for most things you needed an RA who was registered with the DOB to file, but what they were signing was the application, not necessarily stamping interior designers' drawings. Interior designers did sets all the time that were filed as part of applications signed by RAs and PEs, but that didn't mean the licensed professional was stamping the drawings of the interior designer, they were just part of the filed application. The only drawings that needed to be stamped were those that affected life-safety, utilities, and structure. Has that changed?
Dec 2, 19 12:44 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Bloopox: there are plenty of interior designers who "pass-on" architectural services. What I am saying is that regardless of who produces the permit set, yes- interior elevations and details are never filed at the DOB. However, interior designers often do the permit drawings and have them rubber stamped...
Far be it from me to tell you when to shut up Rick, but I'll just note NY's fondness for the fines collected from unlicensed people practicing law on the internet. The state Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that "applying the law to an individual’s specific circumstances generally is the ‘practice of law."
guys, if you try to correct him he just responds saying the same thing with more words. I mean, they're getting long.
Dec 1, 19 11:07 pm ·
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poop876
I just ignore him as obviously he has some issues!
Dec 1, 19 11:39 pm ·
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kjdt
If you try to correct him he does respond with lots of words - but you can see in his post history that he tends to do that in just one or two threads at a time. When a thread gets Ricked it's unfortunate for that thread, but then people heroically take turns engaging with him in those one or two threads at a time for as long as they can, because it usually keeps him out of all the others. The best diverters can keep him going for days and sometimes even weeks at a time in just one or two threads, for the good of the whole forum.
Dec 1, 19 11:54 pm ·
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citizen
^ Someone has to fall on a grenade occasionally so that others may live.
Dec 2, 19 12:59 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Shut-up.... don't tell him our secret.
Dec 2, 19 8:24 am ·
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kjdt
He seems pretty well occupied today in the one about TOEFL scores in GSAPP applications - things about which he's even less familiar than interior design regulations in New York.
Bullshit on most people here taking a dump on the OP for not being licenced. We work on many large projects around the country as unlicensed architects (so yes, we can actually focus on the design).
Licensed architects are dime-a-dozen and there are many that work with us in capacity as executive architects to vet and stamp the drawings. If you are holding onto your licensure as the ONLY thing that makes you worth practicing, you must suck as a designer.
Dec 2, 19 11:22 am ·
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Non Sequitur
There is a difference between experienced folks offering design services and non-experience folks offering design services. Given the nature of the OP's question, it was assumed that this fell in the latter category, hence the shitting. If I was a betting man, I would bet that the OP got the design gig via friends and family and is likely offering their work at a fraction of the cost of a licensed professional thinking someone else will just review and stamp.
This can work, but only when both parties know their roles. Don't think this is the case here. I've mentioned it here and several times before in the forum, we get tonnes of work from our client's tenants because they (the tenants) cheap out and hire other designers who in turn can't legally get them permit docs. We always charge full fees when they come back unable to move forward with their work.
Anyways, perhaps something worth it's own discussion one day.
Dec 2, 19 11:54 am ·
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poop876
Even your office manager busy designing?
Dec 2, 19 12:00 pm ·
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atelier nobody
"We work on many large projects around the country as unlicensed architects..."
You just committed a misdemeanor in almost every state you have ever designed a project in, and a felony in some.
Dec 2, 19 2:15 pm ·
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citizen
What's this "tonne" BS? ;o]
Dec 2, 19 2:41 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
It's not BS, just means I'm better than you. Sorry
Dec 2, 19 2:46 pm ·
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archi_dude
I think the "dumping on" is generally coming from that attitude that architects who know how to get things built are just licensed CAD monkeys. What they don't realize or have to deal with is the usual sizable effort that must be undertaken when a "designer" who never bothers with the constructability details pops out a "design package." Schedule delays and unforeseen costs are usually the impacts far outweighing the paltry few thousand "saved" on a commission fee. Seeing owners get sucked into this is confusing at best, frustrating for those taxed with fixing.
Anyone with access to some basic software can be a "designer." Getting things done efficiently is another matter.
Dec 2, 19 3:00 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
"We work on many large projects around the country as unlicensed architects..." means that we have executive architects in all these states who do the difficult work on getting stuff built. Does not make what we do illegal.
What I am trying to say is that you are equating good design to licensure. This is just not true, unless of course "design" is just a line item in the services you provide.
Dec 2, 19 6:35 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
I've been an AOR and assisted a highly respected, young design firm, not only did they not know the first thing about code, contracts, or contract documents, they knew even less about what it takes to be an architect. That's the point. Good design, exists on the paper; build it, with all the fucking tools, not just the ones that get you in the fucking periodicals.
Dec 2, 19 7:44 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
Not sure it is so black-and -white, Beta. For example, in our firm here, there are quite a few people with over 15-20 years of experience and have worked on built projects, but are not licensed. So yes, we do look at code, zoning etc but not to a level that is expected of Executive architects. On a more "starchitect" level, this happens all the time - the Broad Museum in DTLA was "designed" by DSR, but the executive architect is Gensler. Turned out pretty good, I think...
Dec 2, 19 7:51 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
Same, of course, but perhaps no one in DSR is licensed in CA, and they need an architect to execute their design, but we're not talking about that here. I couldn't even represent myself as an architect in CA. We seem to be discussing what are the requisite skills necessary to be a responsible semi-pro, and to not fully articulate all the particulars, or even have the basic skills to "design" a coherent contract. 7000 sf is a modest scale for an office, but no less challenging, so I'll wait for the publication of this very important project, by this very important design firm.
Archi_dude +++
“I think the "dumping on" is generally coming from that attitude that architects who know how to get things built are just licensed CAD monkeys. What they don't realize or have to deal with is the usual sizable effort that must be undertaken when a "designer" who never bothers with the constructability details pops out a "design package." Schedule delays and unforeseen costs are usually the impacts far outweighing the paltry few thousand "saved" on a commission fee. Seeing owners get sucked into this is confusing at best, frustrating for those taxed with fixing.
Anyone with access to some basic software can be a "designer." Getting things done efficiently is another matter.”
Exactly. I’ve spent countless hours cleaning up ‘design packages’ which could never be built much less permitted in the shape they were received. Hence we would never just ‘flip thru and stamp’. Significant changes must always be made to get the package to a buildable / permittable level. Designing something that looks good on paper is not the same as designing something that can be built and look good in real life. Turning your nose up at architects who have the ability to do both is just case in point to how little ‘designers’ understand about the full value and services of a licensed and seasoned professional.
As a fledgling architect-in-training I'm very disheartened to observe the vitriol being spewed left and right on this chain. There are shitty designers and there are shitty architects. I've met licensed architects who do not deserve the title and I've met unlicensed designers who know construction like the back of their hand. The OP asked a reasonable question(the same question I had), and was met with a sea of architects seemingly projecting their misfortunes. Do I plan on getting licensed? Yes. Am I licensed now? Hell no! Do I deserve to learn how to write contracts and manage a project through freelance work. YES. So, can anyone tell me if I can legally write a contract similar to AIA's B105 form myself or do I need my AOR(a friend of mine) to sign it for me?
Why don't you ask your friend? In the end, you're looking to have your buddy AoR accept legal liability. This should be explained to your clients so they know what your professional limitations are based on the local laws where the project is being constructed.
What is this assumption that I lied to my client? In the first meeting with them I made it clear that I am not licensed and explained that I cannot stamp the drawings.
Most of the architectural work in a firm is done by unliscensed architects under the supervision of a liscensed member of the firm. How is that any different than an unliscensed architect, not an employee of a firm, having his work supervised and signed off by a registered architect?
Interesting question. I'd say in your example the difference is what is considered direct supervision. Is it having a licensed architect review your work at key points in the various project phases? Or is it having the licensed architect guide the entire design process from concept through CD's?
May 14, 20 10:04 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Volunteer, the client hires the firm, which is licensed. In your example, the client hires an unlicensed entity who then relies on a 3rd party for a stamp, who is not under contract by the client.
May 14, 20 10:15 am ·
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archiboi99
This is my first time at the rodeo, so I'm learning a lot about the complexities of liability. Since I'd like to guide the design process, I've reached out to a renovation contractor that could take on liability for the CA process, then my friend could take on liability for the actual drawings. Thanks for the input!
May 14, 20 10:30 am ·
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archiboi99
Alternatively, I've also explore getting insurance for myself, so I could sign the contract(essentially taking on liability for the CA process).
May 14, 20 10:31 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Have a lawyer review your contracts before signing them. I've very happy the arrangement you explain is not permitted in my area.
May 14, 20 10:33 am ·
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archiboi99
I'm working with people I trust and discussing liability with all parties involved, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing my professional due-diligence.
May 14, 20 1:18 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
^mistake no.1. Contracts are for when shit eventually hits the fan. Trust means nothing when lawyers are involved.
May 14, 20 1:19 pm ·
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archiboi99
Are you suggesting then that I have no place trying to learn about the process that I aspire to someday master as a licensed professional? If so, then I'll tell the client right now that I'm just an inexperienced nobody and send them your number. Problem solved!
May 14, 20 1:29 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Incorrect. What I said is that trust only works when you get along which is a very temporary thing when construction is involved. This shows your inexperience and you'll thank yourself to have vetted your agreements with a (paid) lawyer before engaging in practice. People like to sue for all sorts of nonsense and "friends" will turn on you when money is involved.
I got on the defensive, I apologize. The heat of the other posters is getting to my head. 'Trust' can be a temporary concept. I'll take your advice and run it by a lawyer. And trust me, only 4 years in the field has already taught me to never trust anyone. haha. Thanks!
"...trust only works when you get along which is a very temporary thing when construction is involved...People like to sue for all sorts of nonsense and "friends" will turn on you when money is involved..."
"...Geez, you must have worked in some shitty offices, and had shitty contracts or met shitty people..."...;)))...
“ That being said, I got all the answers I needed from a mentor of mine. Once again, the internet has failed to be helpful.”
You mean to say that random internet strangers on a forum didn’t give you the precise (free) advice you were looking for!? Blasphemy! What is even the point of the internet!
Nov 15, 20 10:46 pm ·
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Design contracts for unlicensed architects
We're operating in Manhattan and a company approached us to renovate their 7000 sq.ft office space. We will be producing drawings, renderings, plans and specifications up to a design development set for an AOR to review and file. We will then produce an interior construction document set based upon final finishes, furniture and approved drawings.
Anyone have any insight or a resource on contract templates for design services for unlicensed offices?
Thanks
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No licensed professional in their right mind is just going to ‘review and stamp’ an unlicensed outside party’s drawings. We get drawings from ‘designers’ all the time and they are never even close to ready or prepared for permitting. OP can’t be liable for anything because OP has no license. And no I don’t know any lawyers who write contracts for unlicensed designers because I’ve only done work at licensed architecture firms and utilized those firms’ contracts or AIA contracts, which pertain to licensed professionals.
Don’t get salty when a bunch of licensed professionals explain to you the ins and outs of licensing and contracts when you come onto this board asking questions about how to garner fee whilst avoiding or not bothering to be licensed. Just get licensed if you’re so clever and then you can utilize the AIA docs with amendments as desired for your situation. None of the verbiage in there will be relevant if you aren’t licensed though. That’s sort of the whole point of the license and the contracts going together. But hey you’re really ‘creative’ and apparently us lame architects of record haven’t got a creative bone in our bodies so maybe you can creatively craft a contract for yourself.
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So... you don't have a license to practice architecture?
which part? I'm thinking the whole "contract templates for design services for unlicensed offices" indicates the op is running a drafting service, not a licensed practice.
You’re talking about a commercial remodel, which will likely require a licensed professional. Although I don’t know about the rules in NY - most states have pretty similar thresholds for design services. The issue comes down to whether you understand exiting, fire and life safety, which “lay-people” haven’t learned about.
We’re a design studio. Drafting is part of our services. We’re a collaborative with full time positions at larger architecture offices elsewhere. We offer conceptual design and drafting services to be passed onto the owners AOR for their review.
Yes, our client is well aware that we offer conceptual design services and that they will need an AOR to file, permit and sign off the project. We will be producing certain aspects of the interior construction documents that relate to custom decorative fixtures and millworker which do require a permit to construct.
Yes, I understand the basics of project management and contracts. I’m not sure how you gathered that I do not? Noted on your advice regarding a lawyer. Do you happen to have a name of one?
Thanks
The long and short is this; what you seek, exists in all likelihood as an interior designer, look and see what they use, because the specifics of your question don't exist, and you will need to create your own. That is of course IDs are not required to be licensed in NYS. Here's my question; why do the thing, if you don't know how to do the thing? Architecture isn't only about design, it's about the hard stuff that no one likes; contracts.
I sure hope architects aren't approaching work based soley on what they know how to do. It's called a "practice" of a reason. You should be always learning as an architect.
My point exactly. I could give you a fish, if that'll make you happy.
You sound like you’re only good at contracts.
You sound like you're not good at much of anything but being a drafter, or doing lumion.
You talking to this person like this is an example of everything wrong with architecture.
We get plenty of works from clients who choose the cheap option first by hiring drafting services from unlicensed folks... then realize they can't get permits or are stuck with garbage docs. These clients, often tenants of our larger clients, come running to us for solutions only to be met with full arch service fees.
It’s also true that clients are unimpressed with their architects and seek creative direction and lateral thinking. How doe
s your winning work relate to the topic of the thread?
because we get work from people after they go the cheaper way and hire non-licensed folks thinking they can save a few bucks. We can do creative just as well as anyone else. That's the easy part.
It’s not about cheaper. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And if creative is simply a line item to you then therein highlights the problem.
I actually do know a thing or two (or three) about this. I see lots of projects go to shit because people pick cheap unlicensed folks who then produce unusable docs because of their lack of experience. I don't mind it, more work for me. Picked up 2 projects like this earlier today (not kidding here either) but we're likely to turn those away. Too busy.
NS, don't you just love when people come here with questions, and then proceed to know evvvvvverything, but the answer to their own question?
yes Sir.
What I love most is the absurd attitude from the clearly disenchanted. Totally zombie architects angry from a place of judgement and top down linear thinking.
Listen Muppet, no disenchantment here, just laughing at the clearly millennial sense of entitlement that asks for real professionals to parachute into a problem that you're clearly not capable of managing yourself.
This is fantastic.
I appreciate critical comments but this post is not about your subjectivity and generational politics. You have no knowledge of my experience or my capabilities. We don't need trolling. If your opinion is that designers should not engage in commissioned work unless are licensed then just state that and move on. Be an example of that sophistication and professionalism you are unsuccessfully trying to enforce and don't call people names.
Born on third base, thinks they hit a triple. Reminds me of those Ivy kids, that worked at SOM, and got caught cheating on the ARE.
The OP’s lack of experience is evident in the title of this thread. Not to mention his posts.
AIA provides standard contracts... they're not free. If you aren't familiar with bridging contracts between firms and/or AoR contracts with their consultants, I'd start there.
As a "not-architect" I'd assume you'll want to be considered a consultant.
Further note, yes, consultants produce drawings that eventually go into the CD set, including engineers, interior design, kitchen consultants, etc, all of which, legally, have been coordinated by the architect of record.
where are all of the OP’s responses?
We will be working with a certified interior design office who has a solid working relationship with the building architect. Thanks for the helpful comments.
Then why are you needed then?
NS, information that would've been helpful to know from the start, but what do I know, I've only been doing this fur twenty years.
Process and philosophy behind a task. Architecture is not your contractors permit requirement.
I know what those words mean, but I don’t think you do.
just a letter agreement should be fine. you can pick carpet color and pendant lights, but you're not really responsible for anything.
be very clear on what you're responsible for and what you're not responsible for. ultimately the architect will be responsible for life safety, exiting, accessibility, and all that, so spell that out in your contract. when you hand off your floor plan, they may need to change it. account for that coordination in your schedule and fees.
The AIA documents have the ultimate loophole: the The AOR is responsible for coordinating all of the owner's consultants... this includes design architects. However, the AOR must have a separate contract with the Owner and the design architect cannot pass the services of the AOR through.
Rick, I'm pretty sure that as a Licensed Architect in NYS, I know more about practice law than you do.
ok good, glad someone else also brought up AIA docs and standard procedure with consultants
So, if the OP joined an architecture office and did exactly what he is doing now but had his work signed of by someone in the office with a liscense it would be quite OK? He is having his work signed of by someone with a liscense. I don't see any difference except he is doing the creative part that he would most likely not be allowed to do in an architecture office. Good for him.
Only if the owner of the firm is
licensed.
Rick- what makes you think you are an expert? Every time a licensure questions comes forth on this forum, you pounce on it as if you're the authority. I could understand if this is how you approached a question on licensing in Oregon, but what I don't get is the level of confidence and importance you give yourself as a seeming authority on practice for all states when you aren't licensed in any of them.
We are not using the title architect. We are not architects.
Thank you. This is Very helpful. We will consult accordingly with the owners chosen AOR.
Rick... people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks... you're calling yourself a "building designer". In my book, that's walking a fine line...
and I don't care what the law says- let me ask you: who else designs buildings? Architects and Engineers- right? You're neither, so to call yourself a building designer is really pushin' it.
Its not a protected title, but it sure as hell would make one believe you are either an architect or an engineer, and THAT is illegal...
Rick, do what you gotta do man. I just have no idea how you find clients...
I mean I can only imagine: you get some bottom of the barrel client, who is clueless, and you
you are the cheepest and most willing around.
Any legitimate owner would invest in a real and licensed architect and engineer, regardless if the building is exempt or not. No wonder your fees are so low.
LOL Rick-
Im just curious: why would anyone who is willing to invest upwards of a half a million dollars NOT go with a licensed architect? Your pricing has everything to do with having a contract in the first place.
what was your highest contract?
what was your biggest construction budget?
RickyB, how many half-million dollar building design projects do you handle per year?
7307 does not limit the services of interior designers. It's "Special Provisions" governing what types of projects can be undertaken by joint partnerships. There is no dollar limit or project size limit on interior design projects. As long as they don't make structural changes they are not architectural services, and none of the statutes pertaining to architects and architectural services apply.
New York specifically allows interior designers to provide these services, on projects of any size and budget:
No licensed professional in their right mind is just going to ‘review and stamp’ an unlicensed outside party’s drawings. We get drawings from ‘designers’ all the time and they are never even close to ready or prepared for permitting. OP can’t be liable for anything because OP has no license. And no I don’t know any lawyers who write contracts for unlicensed designers because I’ve only done work at licensed architecture firms and utilized those firms’ contracts or AIA contracts, which pertain to licensed professionals.
Don’t get salty when a bunch of licensed professionals explain to you the ins and outs of licensing and contracts when you come onto this board asking questions about how to garner fee whilst avoiding or not bothering to be licensed. Just get licensed if you’re so clever and then you can utilize the AIA docs with amendments as desired for your situation. None of the verbiage in there will be relevant if you aren’t licensed though. That’s sort of the whole point of the license and the contracts going together. But hey you’re really ‘creative’ and apparently us lame architects of record haven’t got a creative bone in our bodies so maybe you can creatively craft a contract for yourself.
So you do work with designers who submit design drawings to you. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience? What are those contracts like? That's been my question this entire time. This particular project is an office space for an 18 person start(ed) up. It's a graphic-app design company.
Wrong, archinine. There are several architects who will gladly be executive architects, which is yes, to essentially review and stamp drawings. Sorry your licensure isnt actually worth too much.
Point of Order, your standard CA responsibilities should include receiving and reviewing the O/C contract, reviewing just for coordination of dates, etc. One could go to the first OAC meeting and just assume the schedule and schedule of values and other documents were all made in accordance with the contracts... but I'd argue that wouldn't be best practice.
@archinine How did you become so jaded?
rick, just stop. I’m in the middle of my exams, studying contracts daily, and even I can tell much of what you’re saying is not accurate.
Most residential projects on Park Avenue that are led by and interior designer exceed 10,000,000.
10K in NYC gets you what? A couple door knobs?
Rick is fundamentally confusing statutes regarding pass-through of services, with rules regarding what services interior designers may provide.
There is no $ limit on projects that an unlicensed person can do, if they involve only interior design and not "construction materially related to the main structural building components or systems".
These are tasks that NYS explicitly states can be provided by an interior designer on any project, of any size:
The OP hasn't described anything that doesn't fit into this list.
As for the OP's original question: I would recommend ASID's commercial contracts.
The OP is (or hopes to be) “working with a certified interior design office”. I wasn’t aware that there was a level below that.
Certification and registration of interior designers is voluntary in NY. A "certified interior designer" and an uncertified/unregistered interior designer are both allowed to work on interior design projects of any budget and size. The difference between "certified interior designer" and uncertified interior designer is that the latter is registered with the state by submitting minimum education and training documentation, so is allowed to call themselves certified. It's supposed to help the public in selecting a well-qualified designer.
Rick's statement that "interior design is under the scope of architectural services in New York when the project exceeds $10K in NYC or $20K outside NYC" is incorrect. Interior design is not under the scope of architectural services in New York. The thing he keeps quoting is a dollar threshold that governs types of architectural corporations, and architects' involvement in pass-through services. It's not a limitation on what interior designers (certified or not) are allowed to do.
"Interior design is not under the scope of architectural services in New York". Wrong:
http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/archguide-b2.htm While an architect may retain an interior designer as a consultant, or have an interior designer on staff, and pass on those services to the client, an interior designer or firm may not pass on architectural or engineering services to the client. There is nothing to prevent an interior design firm from having an architect on staff to participate or assist in the provision of interior design services, however, even if the architect has ownership in the interior design firm, the firm itself is still not authorized to provide architectural services.
That has to do with pass-through services between architects and interior designers. Interior designers can't practice architecture, but the practice of interior design is a separately defined profession in NY. The tasks I posted above are directly pasted from the statutes governing the practice of interior design.
Yeah, because they illegally get their drawings rubber stamped by a willing licensed architect.
No, their drawings don't need to be stamped unless they contain structural modifications.
Not if you're in NYC. Alterations require Licensed Architects or Engineers. Condo Boards often require it too.
It's been a few years since I worked in NYC, but my recollection is for most things you needed an RA who was registered with the DOB to file, but what they were signing was the application, not necessarily stamping interior designers' drawings. Interior designers did sets all the time that were filed as part of applications signed by RAs and PEs, but that didn't mean the licensed professional was stamping the drawings of the interior designer, they were just part of the filed application. The only drawings that needed to be stamped were those that affected life-safety, utilities, and structure. Has that changed?
Bloopox: there are plenty of interior designers who "pass-on" architectural services. What I am saying is that regardless of who produces the permit set, yes- interior elevations and details are never filed at the DOB. However, interior designers often do the permit drawings and have them rubber stamped...
Far be it from me to tell you when to shut up Rick, but I'll just note NY's fondness for the fines collected from unlicensed people practicing law on the internet. The state Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that "applying the law to an individual’s specific circumstances generally is the ‘practice of law."
I know. They told me that when I reported you.
guys, if you try to correct him he just responds saying the same thing with more words. I mean, they're getting long.
I just ignore him as obviously he has some issues!
If you try to correct him he does respond with lots of words - but you can see in his post history that he tends to do that in just one or two threads at a time. When a thread gets Ricked it's unfortunate for that thread, but then people heroically take turns engaging with him in those one or two threads at a time for as long as they can, because it usually keeps him out of all the others. The best diverters can keep him going for days and sometimes even weeks at a time in just one or two threads, for the good of the whole forum.
^ Someone has to fall on a grenade occasionally so that others may live.
Shut-up.... don't tell him our secret.
He seems pretty well occupied today in the one about TOEFL scores in GSAPP applications - things about which he's even less familiar than interior design regulations in New York.
Rick nuked his comments again?
Curious if he requested it or if it was decided from the green head?
He probably got spooked when he got called out on illegal practice of law.
If that was the case, would we not see daily nuking of his posts?
People don't threaten to report him every day. Maybe they should start.
Licensed architects are dime-a-dozen and there are many that work with us in capacity as executive architects to vet and stamp the drawings. If you are holding onto your licensure as the ONLY thing that makes you worth practicing, you must suck as a designer.
There is a difference between experienced folks offering design services and non-experience folks offering design services. Given the nature of the OP's question, it was assumed that this fell in the latter category, hence the shitting. If I was a betting man, I would bet that the OP got the design gig via friends and family and is likely offering their work at a fraction of the cost of a licensed professional thinking someone else will just review and stamp.
This can work, but only when both parties know their roles. Don't think this is the case here. I've mentioned it here and several times before in the forum, we get tonnes of work from our client's tenants because they (the tenants) cheap out and hire other designers who in turn can't legally get them permit docs. We always charge full fees when they come back unable to move forward with their work.
Anyways, perhaps something worth it's own discussion one day.
Even your office manager busy designing?
"We work on many large projects around the country as unlicensed architects..."
You just committed a misdemeanor in almost every state you have ever designed a project in, and a felony in some.
What's this "tonne" BS? ;o]
It's not BS, just means I'm better than you. Sorry
I think the "dumping on" is generally coming from that attitude that architects who know how to get things built are just licensed CAD monkeys. What they don't realize or have to deal with is the usual sizable effort that must be undertaken when a "designer" who never bothers with the constructability details pops out a "design package." Schedule delays and unforeseen costs are usually the impacts far outweighing the paltry few thousand "saved" on a commission fee. Seeing owners get sucked into this is confusing at best, frustrating for those taxed with fixing.
Anyone with access to some basic software can be a "designer." Getting things done efficiently is another matter.
"We work on many large projects around the country as unlicensed architects..." means that we have executive architects in all these states who do the difficult work on getting stuff built. Does not make what we do illegal.
What I am trying to say is that you are equating good design to licensure. This is just not true, unless of course "design" is just a line item in the services you provide.
I've been an AOR and assisted a highly respected, young design firm, not only did they not know the first thing about code, contracts, or contract documents, they knew even less about what it takes to be an architect. That's the point. Good design, exists on the paper; build it, with all the fucking tools, not just the ones that get you in the fucking periodicals.
Not sure it is so black-and -white, Beta. For example, in our firm here, there are quite a few people with over 15-20 years of experience and have worked on built projects, but are not licensed. So yes, we do look at code, zoning etc but not to a level that is expected of Executive architects. On a more "starchitect" level, this happens all the time - the Broad Museum in DTLA was "designed" by DSR, but the executive architect is Gensler. Turned out pretty good, I think...
Same, of course, but perhaps no one in DSR is licensed in CA, and they need an architect to execute their design, but we're not talking about that here. I couldn't even represent myself as an architect in CA. We seem to be discussing what are the requisite skills necessary to be a responsible semi-pro, and to not fully articulate all the particulars, or even have the basic skills to "design" a coherent contract. 7000 sf is a modest scale for an office, but no less challenging, so I'll wait for the publication of this very important project, by this very important design firm.
There's a book you can buy for the type stuff the OP is seeking:
Business and Legal Forms for Interior Designers
https://www.barnesandnoble.com...
“I think the "dumping on" is generally coming from that attitude that architects who know how to get things built are just licensed CAD monkeys. What they don't realize or have to deal with is the usual sizable effort that must be undertaken when a "designer" who never bothers with the constructability details pops out a "design package." Schedule delays and unforeseen costs are usually the impacts far outweighing the paltry few thousand "saved" on a commission fee. Seeing owners get sucked into this is confusing at best, frustrating for those taxed with fixing.
Anyone with access to some basic software can be a "designer." Getting things done efficiently is another matter.”
Exactly. I’ve spent countless hours cleaning up ‘design packages’ which could never be built much less permitted in the shape they were received. Hence we would never just ‘flip thru and stamp’. Significant changes must always be made to get the package to a buildable / permittable level. Designing something that looks good on paper is not the same as designing something that can be built and look good in real life. Turning your nose up at architects who have the ability to do both is just case in point to how little ‘designers’ understand about the full value and services of a licensed and seasoned professional.
As a fledgling architect-in-training I'm very disheartened to observe the vitriol being spewed left and right on this chain. There are shitty designers and there are shitty architects. I've met licensed architects who do not deserve the title and I've met unlicensed designers who know construction like the back of their hand. The OP asked a reasonable question(the same question I had), and was met with a sea of architects seemingly projecting their misfortunes. Do I plan on getting licensed? Yes. Am I licensed now? Hell no! Do I deserve to learn how to write contracts and manage a project through freelance work. YES. So, can anyone tell me if I can legally write a contract similar to AIA's B105 form myself or do I need my AOR(a friend of mine) to sign it for me?
Why don't you ask your friend? In the end, you're looking to have your buddy AoR accept legal liability. This should be explained to your clients so they know what your professional limitations are based on the local laws where the project is being constructed.
What is this assumption that I lied to my client? In the first meeting with them I made it clear that I am not licensed and explained that I cannot stamp the drawings.
That being said, I got all the answers I needed from a mentor of mine. Once again, the internet has failed to be helpful.
I never said anything about lying. .
Most of the architectural work in a firm is done by unliscensed architects under the supervision of a liscensed member of the firm. How is that any different than an unliscensed architect, not an employee of a firm, having his work supervised and signed off by a registered architect?
Interesting question. I'd say in your example the difference is what is considered direct supervision. Is it having a licensed architect review your work at key points in the various project phases? Or is it having the licensed architect guide the entire design process from concept through CD's?
Volunteer, the client hires the firm, which is licensed. In your example, the client hires an unlicensed entity who then relies on a 3rd party for a stamp, who is not under contract by the client.
This is my first time at the rodeo, so I'm learning a lot about the complexities of liability. Since I'd like to guide the design process, I've reached out to a renovation contractor that could take on liability for the CA process, then my friend could take on liability for the actual drawings. Thanks for the input!
Alternatively, I've also explore getting insurance for myself, so I could sign the contract(essentially taking on liability for the CA process).
Have a lawyer review your contracts before signing them. I've very happy the arrangement you explain is not permitted in my area.
I'm working with people I trust and discussing liability with all parties involved, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing my professional due-diligence.
^mistake no.1. Contracts are for when shit eventually hits the fan. Trust means nothing when lawyers are involved.
Are you suggesting then that I have no place trying to learn about the process that I aspire to someday master as a licensed professional? If so, then I'll tell the client right now that I'm just an inexperienced nobody and send them your number. Problem solved!
Incorrect. What I said is that trust only works when you get along which is a very temporary thing when construction is involved. This shows your inexperience and you'll thank yourself to have vetted your agreements with a (paid) lawyer before engaging in practice. People like to sue for all sorts of nonsense and "friends" will turn on you when money is involved.
I got on the defensive, I apologize. The heat of the other posters is getting to my head. 'Trust' can be a temporary concept. I'll take your advice and run it by a lawyer. And trust me, only 4 years in the field has already taught me to never trust anyone. haha. Thanks!
Non Sequitur,
"...trust only works when you get along which is a very temporary thing when construction is involved...People like to sue for all sorts of nonsense and "friends" will turn on you when money is involved..."
"...Geez, you must have worked in some shitty offices, and had shitty contracts or met shitty people..."...;)))...
Cheers!
You mean to say that random internet strangers on a forum didn’t give you the precise (free) advice you were looking for!? Blasphemy! What is even the point of the internet!
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