I wonder how many design principles, project managers and studio leaders in architectural firms agree to unreasonable deadlines. This is fine however they arent the ones living up to those deadlines, the employees at their respective firms end up slogging hours in order to keep the work their manager made. Is it fair to expect 12-14 hours of work given to an employee suddenly mid day or towards the end of the day and expect them to have it done? Where does this relaying need to please the client or at times just the contractor come from?
Can something be done about this?
Any thoughts, experiences, anecdotes to share people?
no, it’s not fair to work 12+ hr days and you’re a fool if you agree to it. There are plenty of offices where slavery is minimal, so no time or respect for the wankers cramming so much work for other.
Jan 28, 19 5:25 pm ·
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Rusty!
meh. I'll do 12+ hours. Not all the time though, but as needed. Just pay me correctly. There is quite a salary range in NYC. There should be something for everyone. There is only one combination of pay/hours that you don't want.
Jan 28, 19 6:30 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I still have the occasional 12+ days but I’m compensated for every hour. I’m also able to flat out say no without repercussion.
Jan 28, 19 6:40 pm ·
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curtkram
12 hours because of bad management is different than 12 hours because something actually needs to get done
I agree, but how do we address this as a profession, the only reason employers feel the need to do this is one upping someone else, why are we so insecure as a profession.
Jan 28, 19 5:32 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Reject the impossible deadlines, prioritize work within your available hours, change offices.
Jan 28, 19 5:36 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
In that order.
Jan 28, 19 5:36 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Protect your subordinates, be honest with your superiors. Change offices if necessary.
Jan 28, 19 6:58 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
Too many architects chasing too few jobs. Firm owners will promise clients anything to get a project.
Screwing around when the boss is away is a time-honored practice - thus the charette. My old man told me stories about doing this in Johnson's office.
Jan 28, 19 8:08 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Screwing around was probably more fun back in the day. Now people just do lame things like check sport stats online.
Jan 28, 19 8:55 pm ·
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curtkram
i was talking to a client today and he asked when i could get him what he wanted. since he went to me instead of someone who doesn't know what's going on, i gave him a schedule i thought i could meet. he said 'ok.' i think most architects say stupid things because we're afraid of our clients.
Jan 28, 19 10:12 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I observe similarly, curt.
Jan 28, 19 11:15 pm ·
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geezertect
Isn't all this kind of pathetic? It's just not a grown up profession.
It is my experience that bosses are afraid to tell their clients 'no' when confronted with unrealistic deadlines and this is then dumped onto their staff, or bosses paint a too optimistic picture and say they can have it all done by tomorrow (not always literally) just to impress their clients.
I also think it's when jobs are billed by the hour instead of a fixed fee that unrealistic deadlines are worst.
It generally leads to bad architecture and lots of copy-paste, just to get that shit done.
Stand up for yourself, if the team says it can't be done your boss has no choice but to change things. If no one ever speaks up and only complains behind people's backs it will stay the same.
Firms get laid after deadlines. So if a firm is stapped for cash, whether ita because its because it doesn't have enough projects in the pipeline or because too many projects are in the same phase, or because the clients are late on payments, all lf this creates pressure on managers to try to create opportunities and reasons for the accounting departments to send invoices. While the AIA contracts establish progress payment protocols, in general architects get paid after they have completed something (after a deadline).
Jan 29, 19 7:34 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Not really. Most bill monthly based on percentage completed up to that point. Rush and massive OT is signs of mismanagement, not aggressive billing cycles.
Jan 29, 19 7:45 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
How do you know? Are you intimately familiar with the firm's finances? Also- there is such a thing as yearly profit goals and business plan....
Jan 29, 19 8:11 am ·
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Non Sequitur
I know how mine, and many other offices are run in my area and as generally stated in our handbook of practice.
Jan 29, 19 8:20 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
Right- so if you have a month in which you are coordinating mep and structural, and end up only 10% complefe because of conflicts etc, and you have multiple projects like that, its not necessarily that the projects are mismanaged, its just that coordion is taking a while due to project complexity.
Jan 29, 19 9:09 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
So at the end of the day, it is a cashflow issue and so firms try to get things done quicker so they can actually bill more...
Jan 29, 19 9:09 am ·
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Non Sequitur
how much cashflow problems do you have if overtime is not compensated for? In our larger, 50 to $100+ million projects, end of month billings are the same every month during a particular project phase. No guessing and you know how much time to spend on the project base on that.
Jan 29, 19 9:13 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
Let me ask you- what are your firm's monthly expenses? What if you were able to cover this month, but next month your clients are late with payments? Relying on lines of credit is not good financial practice... you are taking on risk.
Jan 29, 19 9:23 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
It seems like many architects operate with no regard to wanting to make a profit. Profit also needs to be accounted for. Breaking even every month is not a symptom of good management.
Jan 29, 19 9:25 am ·
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BulgarBlogger
So if you accomplish your work faster (and better) than the time you were alloted, you actually maximize profit. So while I still contend that cashflow is an issue, I equally believe that making a profit is part lf
Jan 29, 19 9:27 am ·
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Non Sequitur
I honestly have no idea what the monthly expenses are or what the monthly billings are for the entire office... we have dozens of active projects spread over many clients. Nothing wrong with profit and we do tend to let the drafting staff know how many hours are available to them to complete certain tasks (as to not run over on margins), but we compensate all OT so if someone needs to put in 30% OT to suit a particular project's deliverable, it's fully compensated. Perhaps this is not so smoothly if you rely on only a handful or projects/clients tho.
NS, seems like you have boxed yourself into a "perfect" situation, where everything runs like clockwork and nothing ever goes wrong. Aka a city-type job or one in a super large conglomerate. Good for you, just sayin' that a lot of us do not see any growth in such jobs. But then you are canadian, do you need growth?
Jan 29, 19 3:31 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I don't disagree with the boxin POV, but I'm one of 6 licensed arch in a mid-size private office. Not gov/city or multi-national office. We do have good growth here, and have for some time now.
Just had a conversation yesterday with the bosses on what would be a more realistic timeline for a similar project to one that was not properly budgeted. Everybody was aware and open that the work required more effort than anticipated. No blaming production staff for being lazy or not working free overtime. So much garbage continues because people just accept it as part of the job.
It's important to prioritize. A few things that have really helped me (i'm a PA, if you're a designer then the below might not help all that much):
1. Get organized....Spend a few minutes everyday with the team so everyone knows exactly what he or she needs to accomplish for the day and week. Make it very clear.
2. Understand what really needs to be drawn to convey the scope. Understand how drawings and specs work. I'm surprised how many senior people spend tons of time detailing stuff that is easily and clearly explained in the spec. Also understand how the scope is being bought out. If the exterior wall is being bid as a design assist or design build don't spend exorbitant hours detailing stuff that the contractor is being paid to detail and engineer.
3. It's really important to understand the critical path of the job i.e. what the contractor needs tomorrow vs next month or next year.
4. Build relationships with your local contractors that you work with on a regular basis. That goes a long way, they get it. They know everyone is busy, a lot of stuff can be solved in a 5 minute conversation with the GC and sub as long as the scope is bought; see comment 2.
That was extremely insightful, and thank you for sharing, I'm sure its going to help a lot of people. I also agree the understanding of what needs to be drawn versus specified or both is crucial. Though both the drawings and the specifications take time it's efficient if both have a clear path and that information isn't duplicated, as that means there is wastage of manhours.
In my experience there is no such thing as an unreasonable deadline. It is always the case of understaffed project.
I have seen projects that are very reasonably scheduled faceplant due to staffing issues. And I have seen crazy fasttracked projects come together beautifully because staffing was there.
Sometimes staffing is a genuine problem and sometimes it's management playing Money Ball.
Also, 24/7 studio culture in most arch schools translates into a distorted view among architects of all levels of what a "regular working week" actually means and where working long hours into the night and longer is something people actually take pride in...
Jan 29, 19 12:49 pm ·
·
Steeplechase
This is true. Nobody would congratulate you for showing up drunk but will if you show up in the same state of mind due to sleep deprivation. Long hours are a sign of disrespect because you’re not giving it your best.
Then you have clients that "compress schedules" which forces the staff to "double time it" over a shorter schedule = long hours and weekends, a " do or die" mentality sets in with inpatient PMs and lots of yelling and blame game
Jan 29, 19 1:13 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
only if you work in incompetent environments or have no care for your own personal life. Again, how many times do we need to remind you that your view of the profession is not even close to accurate?
Jan 29, 19 1:20 pm ·
·
nehaprane
I disagree, I believe that a large part of the industry fuctions in this way, be it small to mid sized firms or even large nation wide acclaimed firms. Its a matter of attitude, the way this work culture is percieved, and employees when turn into employers do the same for their subordinates.
Well, I worked at one firm on an airport terminal project, and the airline, compressed the schedule, the city(SF) gave us all these unreasonable timelines
Jan 29, 19 1:29 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Did you work for Gensler, Woods Bagot, HKS?
Jan 29, 19 2:06 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Dude, if you worked in the Big Room then I may have to apologize
to you for being unduly harsh. That place was a travesty.
Terminal 1, Southwest Airlines in the building just off 01 L - It was a for another firm that specializes in airports - I know many who worked for Woods Bagot - I heard the horror stories
Jan 29, 19 3:19 pm ·
·
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Architects & their unreasonable deadlines
I wonder how many design principles, project managers and studio leaders in architectural firms agree to unreasonable deadlines. This is fine however they arent the ones living up to those deadlines, the employees at their respective firms end up slogging hours in order to keep the work their manager made. Is it fair to expect 12-14 hours of work given to an employee suddenly mid day or towards the end of the day and expect them to have it done? Where does this relaying need to please the client or at times just the contractor come from?
Can something be done about this?
Any thoughts, experiences, anecdotes to share people?
no, it’s not fair to work 12+ hr days and you’re a fool if you agree to it. There are plenty of offices where slavery is minimal, so no time or respect for the wankers cramming so much work for other.
meh. I'll do 12+ hours. Not all the time though, but as needed. Just pay me correctly. There is quite a salary range in NYC. There should be something for everyone. There is only one combination of pay/hours that you don't want.
I still have the occasional 12+ days but I’m compensated for every hour. I’m also able to flat out say no without repercussion.
12 hours because of bad management is different than 12 hours because something actually needs to get done
^^this
I agree, but how do we address this as a profession, the only reason employers feel the need to do this is one upping someone else, why are we so insecure as a profession.
Reject the impossible deadlines, prioritize work within your available hours, change offices.
In that order.
Protect your subordinates, be honest with your superiors. Change offices if necessary.
Too many architects chasing too few jobs. Firm owners will promise clients anything to get a project.
Just tell them no. Actually, I think there are so many unrealistic deadlines cause if they weren't set, you'd screw off to the last minute.
Screwing around when the boss is away is a time-honored practice - thus the charette. My old man told me stories about doing this in Johnson's office.
Screwing around was probably more fun back in the day. Now people just do lame things like check sport stats online.
i was talking to a client today and he asked when i could get him what he wanted. since he went to me instead of someone who doesn't know what's going on, i gave him a schedule i thought i could meet. he said 'ok.' i think most architects say stupid things because we're afraid of our clients.
I observe similarly, curt.
Isn't all this kind of pathetic? It's just not a grown up profession.
It is my experience that bosses are afraid to tell their clients 'no' when confronted with unrealistic deadlines and this is then dumped onto their staff, or bosses paint a too optimistic picture and say they can have it all done by tomorrow (not always literally) just to impress their clients.
I also think it's when jobs are billed by the hour instead of a fixed fee that unrealistic deadlines are worst.
It generally leads to bad architecture and lots of copy-paste, just to get that shit done.
Stand up for yourself, if the team says it can't be done your boss has no choice but to change things. If no one ever speaks up and only complains behind people's backs it will stay the same.
Workers unite!
One word: cashflow.
Firms get laid after deadlines. So if a firm is stapped for cash, whether ita because its because it doesn't have enough projects in the pipeline or because too many projects are in the same phase, or because the clients are late on payments, all lf this creates pressure on managers to try to create opportunities and reasons for the accounting departments to send invoices. While the AIA contracts establish progress payment protocols, in general architects get paid after they have completed something (after a deadline).
Not really. Most bill monthly based on percentage completed up to that point. Rush and massive OT is signs of mismanagement, not aggressive billing cycles.
How do you know? Are you intimately familiar with the firm's finances? Also- there is such a thing as yearly profit goals and business plan....
I know how mine, and many other offices are run in my area and as generally stated in our handbook of practice.
Right- so if you have a month in which you are coordinating mep and structural, and end up only 10% complefe because of conflicts etc, and you have multiple projects like that, its not necessarily that the projects are mismanaged, its just that coordion is taking a while due to project complexity.
So at the end of the day, it is a cashflow issue and so firms try to get things done quicker so they can actually bill more...
how much cashflow problems do you have if overtime is not compensated for? In our larger, 50 to $100+ million projects, end of month billings are the same every month during a particular project phase. No guessing and you know how much time to spend on the project base on that.
Let me ask you- what are your firm's monthly expenses? What if you were able to cover this month, but next month your clients are late with payments? Relying on lines of credit is not good financial practice... you are taking on risk.
It seems like many architects operate with no regard to wanting to make a profit. Profit also needs to be accounted for. Breaking even every month is not a symptom of good management.
So if you accomplish your work faster (and better) than the time you were alloted, you actually maximize profit. So while I still contend that cashflow is an issue, I equally believe that making a profit is part lf
I honestly have no idea what the monthly expenses are or what the monthly billings are for the entire office... we have dozens of active projects spread over many clients. Nothing wrong with profit and we do tend to let the drafting staff know how many hours are available to them to complete certain tasks (as to not run over on margins), but we compensate all OT so if someone needs to put in 30% OT to suit a particular project's deliverable, it's fully compensated. Perhaps this is not so smoothly if you rely on only a handful or projects/clients tho.
#InCanada.Whereeverything(apparently)isperfect.And reasonable.Andperfectlyreasonable.
^sometimes.
NS, seems like you have boxed yourself into a "perfect" situation, where everything runs like clockwork and nothing ever goes wrong. Aka a city-type job or one in a super large conglomerate. Good for you, just sayin' that a lot of us do not see any growth in such jobs. But then you are canadian, do you need growth?
I don't disagree with the boxin POV, but I'm one of 6 licensed arch in a mid-size private office. Not gov/city or multi-national office. We do have good growth here, and have for some time now.
Firms get paid*** (oops)
Just had a conversation yesterday with the bosses on what would be a more realistic timeline for a similar project to one that was not properly budgeted. Everybody was aware and open that the work required more effort than anticipated. No blaming production staff for being lazy or not working free overtime. So much garbage continues because people just accept it as part of the job.
It's important to prioritize. A few things that have really helped me (i'm a PA, if you're a designer then the below might not help all that much):
1. Get organized....Spend a few minutes everyday with the team so everyone knows exactly what he or she needs to accomplish for the day and week. Make it very clear.
2. Understand what really needs to be drawn to convey the scope. Understand how drawings and specs work. I'm surprised how many senior people spend tons of time detailing stuff that is easily and clearly explained in the spec. Also understand how the scope is being bought out. If the exterior wall is being bid as a design assist or design build don't spend exorbitant hours detailing stuff that the contractor is being paid to detail and engineer.
3. It's really important to understand the critical path of the job i.e. what the contractor needs tomorrow vs next month or next year.
4. Build relationships with your local contractors that you work with on a regular basis. That goes a long way, they get it. They know everyone is busy, a lot of stuff can be solved in a 5 minute conversation with the GC and sub as long as the scope is bought; see comment 2.
5. For big projects, Revit.
Good luck
Sean,
That was extremely insightful, and thank you for sharing, I'm sure its going to help a lot of people. I also agree the understanding of what needs to be drawn versus specified or both is crucial. Though both the drawings and the specifications take time it's efficient if both have a clear path and that information isn't duplicated, as that means there is wastage of manhours.
In my experience there is no such thing as an unreasonable deadline. It is always the case of understaffed project.
I have seen projects that are very reasonably scheduled faceplant due to staffing issues. And I have seen crazy fasttracked projects come together beautifully because staffing was there.
Sometimes staffing is a genuine problem and sometimes it's management playing Money Ball.
Also, 24/7 studio culture in most arch schools translates into a distorted view among architects of all levels of what a "regular working week" actually means and where working long hours into the night and longer is something people actually take pride in...
This is true. Nobody would congratulate you for showing up drunk but will if you show up in the same state of mind due to sleep deprivation. Long hours are a sign of disrespect because you’re not giving it your best.
Then you have clients that "compress schedules" which forces the staff to "double time it" over a shorter schedule = long hours and weekends, a " do or die" mentality sets in with inpatient PMs and lots of yelling and blame game
only if you work in incompetent environments or have no care for your own personal life. Again, how many times do we need to remind you that your view of the profession is not even close to accurate?
I disagree, I believe that a large part of the industry fuctions in this way, be it small to mid sized firms or even large nation wide acclaimed firms. Its a matter of attitude, the way this work culture is percieved, and employees when turn into employers do the same for their subordinates.
Well, I worked at one firm on an airport terminal project, and the airline, compressed the schedule, the city(SF) gave us all these unreasonable timelines
Did you work for Gensler, Woods Bagot, HKS?
Dude, if you worked in the Big Room then I may have to apologize to you for being unduly harsh. That place was a travesty.
Terminal 1, Southwest Airlines in the building just off 01 L - It was a for another firm that specializes in airports - I know many who worked for Woods Bagot - I heard the horror stories
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