there are about 0 jobs for architects in Italy

I already found 3 on dezeen...

randomised, it makes sense indeed. I wrote "I am Italian" because technically I am, but by descent. I wasn't born there and I never lived there, and I don't speak Italian. The thing is that I don't want to move to Italy or Spain. I'm sure that Italy and Spain are great countries, but I'd prefer moving to a country along the line of the U.K., Germany or The Netherlands.

Ah, so you applied for an EU-passport to come and take advantage of our superior welfare state and steal our jobs, our houses and our women...in that case don't come to the Netherlands ;-)

hahaha

From what I just read all over the internet I understand that EU nationals could be able to stay living in the UK through the transition period to ensure that complete chaos won't reign in the UK after Brexit day, March 29th. That's a really big "could". Legally residing EU nationals (who have lived at least 5 years in the UK) could get permanent residency immediatelly, and those that arrive in the transition period could stay 5 years to get that. That's another big "could". I knew that the situation was bad, but not that bad. You are right Bench, too much uncertainty. Let's not forget that free movement of people is something that the UK's Prime Minister doesn't want. It seems that Germany starts being a better option.

There will be chaos after March 29 at this current rate. My understanding of the rule was that anyone who had already moved to the UK as an EU national before the day they legally invoked their Leaving Clause would be allowed to stay up to 5 years to apply for PR, and any EU national arriving after 29 March 2017 would not necessarily be entitled to that.

But I could be wrong...

Yes, but the thing is that no one knows. All of those are possibilities, but just that. Before March 29th there's nothing set in stone.

You are right Adrian. What could happen post-Brexit is uncertain. And it will be like that right until December 31st 2020, not just March 29th 2019. I don't speak Italian and I'm not planning on moving there. I would rather move to Germany. It would be better if I learn to speak German of course. I could try looking for a job as an English speaker, but that would narrow my options a lot. And I'll have to choose a city. Berlin is an option for me there, but I didn't really investigated a lot about other German cities.

I'm really not Miles. I know that there's a 99.99% chance of not getting a job in architecture, not even outside the UK, but I prefer being in Europe without a job in architecture than here with one. And I knew that things in the UK where bad right now with Brexit, but not as bad as Bench and Adrian wrote. I guess that waiting for March 29th to see what happens with Brexit could be an option.

I bet Italy is a great country, but it's not an option for me. I prefer countries along the line of Germany. And I want to live in a big city. I don't live in Europe so I will have a hard time finding a job even in the biggest cities.

A lot to learn about Europe Lucas, Malta is not Italy but an independent country (used to be British until the 60's)

I know that. I guess it would have been better if I had replied to McTaco's comment about Italy, sorry.

And with Spain is the same, it's not really "my style". I would be better off in Germany or The Netherlands.

Those seem like really good and interesting options. I will definitely have those places in mind, thanks.

OP has an Italian passport. Argentina is famous for giving shelter to German Nazis and Italian Fascists after those countries were defeated in World War II, so maybe that's why.

My bad, sorry, didn't notice that. It's still worthless since he doesn't speak Italian and never been there. And yeah, I wanted to point out that thing about Argentina too but I didn't want to be an asshole lol https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/128/145/27d.jpg

the Italian passport enables the OP to legally settle and work in any EU country so it's not that worthless. Once the UK leaves the EU, chances are EU passport holders won't have the same legal rights as before, basically that's how Brexit will affect the OP

przemula, sorry for the confusion, I didn't intend that to happen. I wrote that I'm Italian because I'm Italian by descent. I wasn't born there, but I have Italian citizenship. So that gives me the right of free movement throughout the European Union, something that would not be possible being just Argentinian. Now I guess that you understand why Brexit affects me.

I wrote that th is is my 7th/8th year working in a building company, that's why it took me so long to get my degree. That experience could be usefull somewhere, architecture or construction. I know that I would be competing with a lot of locals for job positions, that's another thing that I will have to experience on my own. I know that the job market is not the same in every part of Europe, that's why I'm concerned about it. After choosing a country I will investigate more about the job market in every city. And if a choose Germany of course I will investigate about the difference about Western/Eastern Germany that you point out.

przemula maybe you can tell me something about that Western/Eastern Germany difference, I'm really interested in knowing that.

Yes, I know nothing about ot her countries, just what I can read here on the internet, but that's the same with every other country in the world outside of Argentina. I'm just trying to choose a city where I think I might fit.

przemula this is going to be one of the most important decisions that I'll have to make in my life. Of course I know that it will be really difficult and that there are thousands of different factors involved. I know that and I will get through all that. I may wear long shorts like a teenager but that doesn't mean that I think like one 100% of the time.

hahaha Non Sequitur you are wright. I'm taking a lot of usefull information from this anyway.

Good catch there Ricky.

haha maybe I was thinking about FLW, I don't know why I wrote "wright". Ups!

First of all, Austria is not Eastern Europe. And stop spreading bullshit if you're not familiar with the current situation, there's absolutely no hate towards immigrants in either Hungary or Poland. In fact, Poland is one of the safest countries in whole Europe. Visegrad Group (Poland, Hungary, Czech an Slovakia) are against stupid and insane immigration policies dictated by EU officials and that's why liberal media shit on them and call them nationalist, hostile, etc. People who are willing to work instead of demanding social benefits are always welcome in V4 countries.

I like Danish architecture, Copenhagen could be the city to move if I choose Denmark. I will investigate a little bit to compare them with Berlin/Germany. Norway is always in the list of "best countries to live in" (I know that kind of lists aren't always 100% usefull), but it seems to me that it's more difficult to work there as an architect or in an architecture office than in other countries of the region.

Przemula, there IS hate in Poland against migrants, foreigners, Jews, Roma, people of colour, gays, etc. Why are you telling lies?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

I love it how not wanting your country to turn into an absolute shithole means you’re every “-ist” in the book. There’s a reason the Based countries are starting to become destinations.

@LITS4FormZ     Ahhhh, yes, and just what might you say causes otherwise prosperous countries to become "absolute sh**hole[s]," as you so eloquently put it?

Yes Rick, you are Right. I prefer moving already knowing how to speak the language. Being a foreigner already puts me behind everyone else, so speaking the language could help me a bit.

I guess I'll have to try finding a job before moving, maybe I'll come up with that 00.01% of luck. I'll have that "trade job in construction" in mind, thanks. Someone told me that learning German is easier for people that speak English. Maybe it would have been better if he told me "it's less difficult" and not "it's easier", thanks for the heads up Adrian.

German - quick overview about the issues with its grammar https://youtu.be/K3IImGiiY1Q?t=600 I can think of at least 3 things that make German harder than English 1) nouns have 3 rather random genders to be memorized along with each noun 2) a case system which takes into account said genders 3) A lot of German words are alien to an English speaker because a huge amount of English words are derived from French (Norman conquest)

Thanks for the info. There's a big chance of moving to Germany, so I'll start learning German as soon as I can. I'll just have to put a lot of effort into it and see what happens.

on the degree validity; your course list is/was very different from any school in europe or north america; they won't let you just "validate" it. In italy for instance, you need 3 semesters of historic restoration. In the US, you may say you have an architectural degree, but you will never be able to get a license without doing a masters here.

JLC-1, nunca fui a Europa y no conozco a nadie allá. JLC-1, I've never been to Europe and I don't know anyone.

Another one that tells me that I won't get a job in Architecture in Europe. Hey, dreaming is free. Let me dream damn it, let me dream! Haha, I know, I know. I'm already thinking that because I'm not moving IF I get a job, I'm moving no matter what happens. But in Italy I have a chance you say? Who knew, Italy is one of the European countries with a highest percentage of architects in its population.

Yes, you are right. Depending on the country the process of "validating" my degree could be a nightmare. I'll get deeper into it.

you should try to get into a kitchen shop, or a cabinet shop - what the italians call "arredamenti" - it's these design/build companies that do kitchens, closets,bathrooms and sell their products along with the design, there is a huge market - people move with their kitchens and need to adjust, when you rent a new place it comes without closets or kitchens, so it's always in demand.

People moving with their kitchens? Wow, that sounds crazy from here. Interesting option, I'll definitely have that in mind. With studying architecture the good thing is that there are a lot of things that I could do, not just working in an architecture office or a construction company. Companies like the ones you are pointing are one example.

watch house hunters international, those people are always shocked to find out there's no kitchen at all.

So I guess that in Italy when you rent you don't get light fixtures too, am I right?

Working for an international company sounds like a good option (if I get a job in one of course). And I don't believe that getting a job in a construction company is impossible. Even though 70% of Germans speak English (using Germany just as an example) I'll try to learn the language as much as I can.

If you can get a job at Hochtief which seems possible considering you experience and take German classes at night, you should be able to move to an architecture company afterwards.

Yeah sure. I don't really know anything about the local building code (of course it changes from city to city) but I'll get into that after I choose a city. As well as with different materials that they may use and here we don't. After I settle I'll keep looking for a job in an architecture company. When I find one I'll take it .

@lucas- just work your ass off and learn the language as soon as possible- take night courses. The Germans will like you as long as you work hard and learn the language asap- that will be taken more seriously than where you are from, I would know bc I have experience in Germany. Also I highly doubt you would be put in any position initially at hochtief where you will be delegating and therefore need to be an expert on local codes. Plus if you gain experience at hochteif many arch firms will view this favorably.

Rick, I understand. I know that as a foreigner I will have to work harder than everyone else. The good thing is that it will help me grow professionaly more than being here. And thanks for the info about building codes.

archinet, I guess I won't get a high skilled position at any firm, being in architecture or construction. It sounds like a good idea to start working at a construction company. After all architecture students don't excel at knowing how things get built.

Lots of uncertainty in the UK right now - since there is no clear Brexit plan in place, there are no clear rules for settlement of EU nationals. If a peoples vote goes ahead, most likely UK will stay in the EU.

^ When it comes to free movement of persons, Norway, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, and Iceland can be considered as if they were part of the EU, so they can be included in OP's search.

Andorra.

as far as I know, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino are not part of the EU, EEA or EFTA, thus the free movement may not apply in their case

OMG TED, Germany is fifth in your list hehe. When you put Ireland in the first place, are you thinking about any city in particular? Dublin perhaps? I read that Dublin will grow because of Brexit, along with Germany of course.

@lucag51 Germany would be No. 1 but I was crap when studying German. Do speak Spanish and Spain would be on the list but economy and approach to healthy living is not as high as 2-3-4 -Anywhere in Ireland - Dublin is a natural - Guinness is good for you!

hahahahaha

Bet you £1 UK will not leave the EU -

We already have an Atlantikwall, built by that other great public speaker...

haha

What a Laibach copy cats...

Not too many things are made from scratch. Laibach is an Avant-garde rinse & repeat gig; their album covers include your typical Metropolis or Duchamp visual imagery, and so forth. But I like them too.

Thanks fot both music bands, I'll get deeper into that as well haha.

Adrian -> Wow, I'll have a really long way until I can understand that hehe. Let's hope it's not too long.

Adrian, I don't think I will regret my decision of moving to Europe. Of course I will be continuously trying to get a job in architecture, that's what I studied for. But if I have to change and do something else then so be it. Like I told JLC-1, I'm not moving if I find a job in architecture, I'm moving there no matter what happens. My overall idea is to be in a better country. About "being an architect", I don't know if that could be possible. I could validate my degree, but working as a professional architect could be really hard for me being a foreigner.

I'll definitely look for information on other sites, the way of living is not the same everywhere. I know that it's going to be really hard, so the harder I try and work, the less difficult it will be. Thanks for all your insights Adrian, I really appreciate it.

you dont need to speak dutch to live/work in NL...ask all the expats

No need to speak Dutch, but you'll always be considered an outsider if you don't.

of course, but technically you dont need it...and you can always learn over time. rotterdam architecture scene is full of foreigners...who either come for a few years and dont learn, or who stay for a lot longer and then do learn

I know, am working in the Rotterdam and Amsterdam architecture scene myself as a Dutchman and have worked and am working with many foreigners. But I am not talking about life inside the office, I was referring to the existence outside in the real world. People will basically consider you a tourist/outsider and won't really bother all that much. You'll be excluded from many (social) functions, will basically only make lasting friendships with other foreigners. People in other places, let's say parents at a daycare for your kids, will just ignore you because you don't speak Dutch, etc. Speaking from first and second hand experience here. Yes basically everybody speaks English (except my mother), you can order your complicated coffee preference anywhere you like but it just feels very unwelcoming that when there's more than one Dutch person in the room they immediately switch to Dutch even though they were just talking to you in English, for example. And professionally you'll hit that glass ceiling pretty soon. Sure, you can foam a couple of models, do a couple of renderings, even make a bunch of drawings that look like technical drawings, but unless the office has international projects going (best in your country of origin or at least where they speak your native language) or you pick up Dutch it will be extremely tough earning a decent, comfy and permanent spot at the table dealing with clients, contractors and advisors.

I'm enjoying speaking my dinglish (dutch english mix). My method is everyone speaks to me in Dutch (also at meetings), I answer in English...works pretty well...gotta get over the insecurity of sounding like a 2 y ear old though...and just start speaking properly.

"you can order your complicated coffee preference anywhere " if I met a Dutch person who doesn't speak English and tried German to order "eine Tasse Kaffee" does that mean I might end up with a purse and coffee?

Nobody orders their coffee like that in Germany :) 'Einen Kaffee, bitte' would be enough, and I'm sure you'll get a cup of coffee with that when ordering in NL too.

"Ich hätte gern eine Tasse Kaffee", or without Tasse - Ich möchte gern' einen Kaffee

^ I was told that's how Schiller was ordering his coffee while he was writing his Ode to Joy

randomised -> to be fussy about the coffee, it depends on the waiter's question, the reply would be "Ein Kaffee bitte..." (nominative) or "Einen Kaffee bitte..." (accusative), true, many use the short form if used directly, that's why I find German grammar so hard

I was mostly referring to the somehow superfluous Tasse, not to Ein vs Einen, I wrote that without thinking too much about nominative or accusative, not to mention genetive or dative...we don't use cases in Dutch any longer, thankfully. If you ever consider moving east, to Poland, they have seven! cases instead of the meagre 4 in German :)

I think you dropped the cases before or around WW2? Sanskrit has 8 cases, that's the maximum # of cases any Indo-European language can aspire to.

Was wrong, Ossetian has 9 cases

Adrian, I'll have German standards in mind. Talking about where I should go, I wanted to move to London at first, so maybe Berlin is the closest that I could get to that kind of city in Germany and in the rest of Europe (remember that France is not an option for me). As you mention west Germany is in better shape, but I guess that living in east Germany is way better than living here. I'll have to think about it.

I could get a job (I'm not saying wich type of job or where) speaking just English. Nevertheless, I want to learn the languaje because I want to be part of the society. I'm not moving a couple of years to earn Euros and come back and change those to Pesos (the currency in Argentina, with an exchange rate of 50 to 1).

True, some of the most interesting contemporary architecture is done over there. Ah well, guess the pampas is always greener on the other side of the border...

Well yeah, the grass is always greener on the other side, or at least it seams that way. It doesn't matter if it's way greener or just a little bit greener, I just need a change, a start from scratch.

Yes, that would be just stupid...especially since the level of English is not that great among your general contractors or suppliers, or among non-native-English-as-a-second-or-third-language-speaking-architects ;) Just go through some of the portfolios posted here to get what I mean.