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Gutterless Buildings

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rich_9999

I've been scratching my head as to how this problem is solved.

This building has no gutter. Rain simply falls between the cladding where it meets some form of the waterproof membrane before running off onto the ground below.

Cross battening will need to penetrate the waterproof membrane to get a secure fixing to the structure. So how do you deal with the breach to the waterproof seal?

Also, how is ventilation addressed when you are essentially wrapping the house in a giant condom?

Has anybody got any info on this matter or potentially a construction detail showing the build up?

Thanks

 
Apr 27, 18 5:08 pm
Non Sequitur

Seems like a simple but elegant rainscreen system would do the trick.

Apr 27, 18 5:26 pm
rich_9999

Thanks for feedback. 

The vertical batten fixed to the structural member is making me wonder whether water ingress is a concern?

I came across the Dupont Tyvek UV Facade, have you ever specified a specific product or know of an alternative?

Apr 27, 18 6:29 pm
Non Sequitur

Is the entire drainage plane supported by polyolefin sheathing?

proto

my guess is that there IS a gutter hidden in there & that bulk water collected from the horizontal area is moved away and not just trickled to the bottom of the wall via the rain screen cavity

letting bulk water stream around all your wall penetrations (windows, doors, piping, vents, etc) is just asking for water intrusion problems no matter how well it's sealed up

Apr 27, 18 6:59 pm

You don't need gutters in the desert.

Apr 27, 18 7:57 pm
rich_9999

That might be true, however this building is located in Dungeness (United Kingdom).

Janosh

Here in the desert, all competent buildings have gutters

citizen

"Wrapped in a giant condom" you say?  Thanks for the reminder to visit the drug store!

(Sorry....)

Apr 27, 18 8:40 pm
rich_9999

Do they make full body suit prophylactic now?

citizen

Lame joke aside, this is an interesting topic, and not only for permeable rain screen installations.  I've seen drawings (though not the actual installation) of these shapes of impermeable pitched roofs (standing seam, or shingles) with integral gutters that sit below the roof surface, open above like a trough.  And while that might work for a high roof nobody sees, for low structures like these it would kill the "pure" geometric effect.

Apr 27, 18 8:45 pm
rich_9999

I found this picture, I suspect this could be how the Dungeness building has been constructed.

Has anyone got an idea of what the membrane wrap would be? To me that looks like a thin EPDM membrane? 

The batten fixings are an area of concern, Some sort of water seal I assume is used? Also I'm assuming you'd treat the wall build up similar to a warm roof deck?


Apr 27, 18 10:07 pm
Rusty!

Problem with EPDM is that it really doesn't like punctures. Good air barriers the likes from Grace or Henry have a 'self healing' feature that claims any screws penetrating the membrane will not compromise the membrane's ability to keep water out. I am not sure why they used a sheet product on this type of assembly. I would personally use fluid applied system and only after all cladding attachments have been installed first.

randomised

SeARCH should have some books with detail drawings of their projects, look for Wolzak:



Another nice one, although don't know if they published their drawings is Rocha Tombal's huis Bierings:



Apr 28, 18 8:42 am
Volunteer

If the roofs don't leak (big if) the skylights certainly will.

Apr 28, 18 10:03 am
randomised

It's just a matter of knowing how to detail properly. As if they had their shit together in the past or something...that Pantheon building is leaking like crazy!

Wood Guy

I imagine the house is covered with EPDM, but it could be this vapor-open product:  https://foursevenfive.com/prod.... The horizontal battens probably have neoprene gaskets or bushings at the fasteners. 

I would be leery of flush-glazed skylights--there are plenty of reliable skylights available, but flush-glazing is asking for trouble. 

Apr 28, 18 11:37 am
Wood Guy

You mentioned venting--do you mean venting the roof, or mechanical ventilation for the house? With closed-cell spray foam you don't need to vent the walls or roof. (For environmental reasons I strongly recommend an HFO-based blowing agent, such as Lapolla Foamlok 2000 4G or Demilec Heatlok HFO High-Lift, instead of conventional HCFC-blown foam, which is a potent, persistent global warming agent, aka carbon polluter.) I prefer to design foam-free assemblies, but the detail you show is not a forgiving one, so foam is warranted. 

Apr 28, 18 11:47 am
archinet

I suspect proto might be right. I never worked on a pitched roof house but I have worked on buildings with hidden gutters systems in Germany, where for instance a flat roof is covered with a deck, beneath the deck is an elaborate system of gutters to manage to water.

Apr 28, 18 12:16 pm
randomised

We do hidden gutters in the Netherlands all the time, I really don't get all the fuss.

Apr 28, 18 3:53 pm
rich_9999

The building above is not a hidden gutter building but a gutterless building. Do you see the gravel around the building? I suspect the rainwater is collected beneath.

randomised

So what's the problem again? In that case it will probably be covered in rubber like one of the pics above. Easy easy

randomised

Here a  gutterless and seamless rubber building by NL Architects: http://www.nlarchitects.nl/slideshow/52#

A gutterless rubber house by Cityförster:

Another gutterless and sprayed rubber building, by Benthem Crouwel:

Holiday home, Texel



Wood Guy

I don't know where you guys think the gutter is hiding, or why one is necessary, or why it applies to the original question....

We did gutterless buildings all the time when I worked here:  https://www.ecocor.us/walls. The roof was not totally open to the elements but the overall system was not dissimilar.

Apr 28, 18 5:47 pm
rich_9999

Thanks for the link. I will look into the tech a little further. Hopefully, it leads to me appreciating whats actually going on. I like the idea of designing gutterless homes, however, I do want to make sure I'm not going to design a house that leaks in 5 years.

Archlandia
You could also do a Kengo Kuma detail. Where there actually is a gutter built into the eave detail, but you can’t see it unless you’re above the eave
Apr 29, 18 5:27 pm

Gutters are a bad solution to basic design failure. Internal gutters are especially stupid, especially in freezing climes.

While gutters are stupid, rainscreens are idiotic in wood frame construction. None of the buildings shown here appears to have effective drainage.

The horizontal lath on the walls and roof are effective water stops. Absorption and capillary action wet the lath and penetrating connectors. This will cause rot of both the lath and the framing with trapped moisture potentially causing mold (see EIFS class actions, also insurance for builders and owners).

Apr 29, 18 5:59 pm
I'm not a robot

what about heat tracing the gutters?

I'm not a robot

what about heat tracing the gutters?

PandasAreSexy

>Gutters are a bad solution to basic design failure.

How so?

Wood Guy

From what I've seen, rain screens may be the single most important element to include on wood-clad buildings. They need to drain adequately, of course; to what degree depends on the cladding design. They are best ventilated at top and bottom. The small amount of water that gets through conventional cladding is not enough to rot the furring, as long as it can dry easily. What's idiotic is nailing wood siding directly to the WRB and then complaining when the wood or finish fails. Or using imitation wood cladding as a work-around.

Ground gutters are a simple way to deal with stormwater, but they have their own set of design details to consider.


PandasAreSexy

What about:

1. Cover roof and walls with standing seam roofing, with roof lapping over walls.

2.  Attach solar panel roof clamps designed for standing seam roofs as needed to avoid penetrations. https://www.solarelectricsuppl...

3. Bolt furring to clamps.

4. Fasten cladding to furring. 

Apr 30, 18 2:21 am

WTF do you need *another* roof for over the standing seam?

WTF do you need *another* roof for over the standing seam?
Non Sequitur

WTF do you need another post over your other post

Well-played, NonSeq! (But MIle sit's a good question.)

I'm guessing you guys missed the metaphor.

PandasAreSexy

Hey now, I'm with you on this, I think it's a stupid design. I was just thinking of a way make it without creating any holes in anything.

rich_9999

PandasAreSexy - I think most people would agree good design is simple, so I wonder why you think this is a solution? . Your proposal is to double labour and material costs for no real benefit.

joseffischer

I would disagree that.. inherently (which is how most architect's take it) a good design IS simple. A good design is a good design. Simplicity may or may not be involved. To broaden the comment to what may be implicit... I also disagree aesthetically and personally that a good design must APPEAR simple. I-phones look nice and have their place. I don't need every building ever made to have the sleakness, lack of buttons, knobs, etc, and "simplicity" of an I-phone.

rich_9999

Disagree all you want. Simplicity, utility and function are what i believe to be the core tenants of good design. That doesn't have to mean designing a shiny iPhone. All it means is removing anything from the process that is not necessary. It requires a greater understanding of how to build things and takes more thought. Something that separates a high-end designer from a mediocre one.

Non Sequitur

^Making things not leak is neither high-end or mediocre, it's minimum standard.

PandasAreSexy

rich_9999 - Not sure what to make of your response... It's a solution because its a solution, bad or good? You also seem to be saying that my solution is not simple because it is not cheap?

I think its a good solution because:

- It is highly durable, metal roofing.

- Puts no holes in the shell of the house.

- Would allow for the cladding to be repaired / replaced easily without putting more holes in things.

Wood Guy

Panda, your idea is probably better than the OP's, but otherwise the wood screening serves no function. Most building elements serve some sort of function, and those that don't (phony shutters, eg) are not considered good design, by good designers.

rich_9999

PandasAreSexy - I will try to elaborate a little. It's just not very elegant. There is no right or wrong if the end result leads to the same outcome. But it is a solution that fundamentally goes against everything I stand for when I go to design. I do not think the idea is net positive overall. It's the type of solution if you were doing it for profit would see you being annihilated by competition very quickly.

rich_9999

Non Sequitur - That point is a non sequitur and does not follow the logic of my comment. It does appear though that me establishing what makes for high end and mediocre has got your panties in a twist. Maybe I hit a nerve?

Non Sequitur

No nerve hit and also, no wearing panties here. Seems like you need a more in-depth understanding of building construction to see what we're all telling you.

rich_9999

Non Sequitur - You are clearly wrong. The fact that Gutterless buildings exist and that building products are available specifically show there is a use case. If you think Building Control and Insurance companies would pass them over and over again if they are known to fail then you are clearly misguided. Also, you seem to have a very limiting view of what is and is not possible. Thank god everybody is not like you, Elon Musk wouldn't exist how we know him today that for sure.

Non Sequitur

Now who has a nerve hit? Stand back and re-read the comments. A building like the example you describe would fail within on freeze-thaw cycle in my location. Sometimes you just need to consider that you're not the smartest or most informed person and others might know something you've overlooked.

PandasAreSexy

@Wood Guy - I completely agree. I like how it looks but just seems like problems waiting to happen. Bad design, I was just thinking about how I could make it durably. 

 @rich_9999 - It seems pretty elegant to me. I am combining pretty simple known methods to create the effect. 

 What is not elegant about it? 

 I thought your issue was with price not elegance. 

If we’re talking about elegant solution isn’t this entire design flawed since it isn’t simple to start with? 

 Also I don’t really think this solution would be done for profit really since this isn’t a common type of design? 

 And are you sure I would be eliminated on profit? 

The standing seam roof is common construction method, my clamps can go on with unskilled labor, and you do not have to worry about damage as much when applying the cladding since its over a metal roof. Plus the durability and repairability... 

 Btw are you a keeper? Cause you seem to keep moving the goal post.

rich_9999

Non Sequitur - You are just a dude on the other side of the internet. I listen to all comments and do my own research and come to my own conclusions. I'm not overlooking anything you have brought up I just find it to be weak or an appeal to stick to tradition. Maybe you should re-read your own comments because you seem to be the biggest know it all here. The evidence is that gutterless building do indeed exist and that they continue to be built. Why is that? Clearly, they are not failing on mass like you claim. Also, I have great faith in the smart R & D people that design and test these products. Much more so than a person who has never looked into the technology at all but has formed an opinion based on what his professor probably told him many many years ago.

rich_9999

PandasAreSexy - You are using the word elegant to literally. When I say elegant in design terms I mean that it is designed and constructed in the simplest way possible. That involves looking at all aspects of the design-build process. - Am I using more material than absolutely necessary? - Is this the simplest way to achieve the desired result? - Am I overcomplicating the process for a person building the thing? Can I strip it back and make it easier? - Does it function as intended? - Is this the best use of the client's funds? I would refrain from saying the system is flawed. Some people on the thread think it is and some do not. Simply, it is not the standard and therefore it takes the effort and time to educate yourself on it. Something I am doing. I do not think to design a gutterless building is impossible. People are as we speak working out the finer details on how to colonize Mars. Designing a simple watertight gutterless building is not beyond the realms of human endeavour. Maybe beyond Non Sequiturs.

Non Sequitur

delusions are a great thing, no?

rich_9999

No, delusions are not productive. Denying the existance of and or it's technology because you take issue with it on a personal level for what ever reason is delusional. Non Sequitur you are delusional.


Non Sequitur

I take no issues with the style but take a comical issue with your pedestrian effort to figure things out. I think it's a simple detail and I could, if I had a few minutes, draft up with a solution that would maintain the look, keep the important parts dry, and preserve the wood decorations. This level of detail is about 75% of my day to day work anyways.

rich_9999

I have no doubt you would detail it wrong.

Non Sequitur

You would be wrong with that assumption.

rich_9999

Tell us all the wall build up? Tell us all what tapes, glues and joints you would use? Tell us all what membrane is required? Tell us all if any type of water seal is needed where screws penetrate? You're pretty quick to reply so let's see how good you actually are. If you're a qualified Architect I guarantee you don't know how to do it. Go call over your Technologist and ask him. By the way, I don't have a 'pedestrian' understanding. I pretty much know how the system works. I just don't know what the membrane used is. When I need to design it I can find out pretty easily by calling a few manufacturers and follow up on some of the links left by some of the people on the thread as a starting point. I, however, don't work in the industry anymore. retired at 30. I make money trading. I'm researching this for a self-build project I plan to carry out. In maybe 2 years time. So it's something I research in the background. Not a pressing issue.

Non Sequitur

...and you'll pay me for this information right?

rich_9999

Sure I'll buy you some sports leggings and a nice little crop top. You mentioned how fierce you look in clothes found in the women's aisle. Do you need some red lipstick to go with?

Non Sequitur

I prefer sans lipstick. Keeps things natural and authentic. But that aside, no, you won't be getting detailed information from me as that is the service clients pay for. There is more than enough here amid the sass for you to find your way.

rich_9999

I don't know what sans lipstick is. Weird you do though.

Trust me you won't be telling me anything I don't already know, that is obvious by your posts.

Non Sequitur

or is it. Funny how you keep thinking that.

joseffischer

Here's an interesting thing to process. If you look at NRCA's metal roof flashing standards, you'll notice that they call out .5 mil for alum gutters as a "30-year" roof minimum thickness. If you look at their 1980s standards (we have an old hard copy in the office) It called out .8 mil and required a bend for pieces longer than 8". Did aluminum magically become a better material, was the old requirement "bad design", or has the industry just gotten cheaper and crappier over time leading to watercanning and denting in my gutters and a product that won't last the stated warranty period?

joseffischer

I imagine all these wood-like exterior finishes on buildings without any conventional drip edge at the roof edge don't hold up well.  The Breuer Library is a good example of an architect purposefully using wear, age, and rain lines to create an aesthetic exterior.

Apr 30, 18 7:59 am
rich_9999

Not true, understanding how the house will behave under rainy conditions and detailing accordingly would solve any accelerated decay to the exterior cladding.

joseffischer

... um, yes true? If you understand how wood works, and you create a mitered outside joint at the roof edge, you've created a location of accelerated decay. Google roof eave wood rot and notice how we go to great lengths to hide and cover the edge of a roof with fascia and soffit to protect the wood and to hide the wood for when it rots. Note also how we paint said fascia and soffit periodically to further maintain the detail. For all these exposed wood systems where my wall is my roof, do they go back and use a stain clear seal coat every two years?

rich_9999

Not true, you just don't know how to detail water build up out of your design.

rich_9999

I will rephrase. If you design the water to run off between the cladding slats and remove all areas for water to collect the wood will not rot or decay any more than what you would expect to naturally occur.

Wood Guy

The problem with mitered boards is that end grain absorbs water more readily than face grain, and water is drawn into narrow spaces by capillary action. So even if the boards or slats are not sitting in water, the joint will absorb water and the wood will eventually rot, or if there is a finish, it will fail. If the miter is fully glued or otherwise sealed it would not be a problem, until the sealant fails.

Non Sequitur

"until the sealant fails" Comment of the week right there.

joseffischer

Two points for wood guy!

joseffischer

Oh, and here's another persnickity thought. Let's say you "design the water to run off" like rich is suggesting, wow, good for you, you're actually doing your job... but then they don't build it how you design, and the building leaks... How'd that happen, I "designed it right" therefore the building should never leak, no?

Gutters are not necessary if the walls and roof membranes are sealed correctly and the windows are installed correctly. The main function of gutters is to convey roof runoff away from the building and to reduce the impact of rain falling off the roof onto the ground.  Sometimes the gutters can backfire and lead to rotting and roof leaks, especially in climates where ice dams are possible. Walls have, for as long as we have had buildings, needed to contend with water flowing down the surface. One method in masonry construction is to create a ledge to divert or shed water as it flows down the wall towards the head of a window, this is most pronounced in Gothic architecture but exist in many historical styles where a little roof or ledge is used to divert or shed water flowing down the face of a wall away from the windows. 

Eventually all things break down and will start to leak, keeping as much water off the walls and other surfaces as possible will extend the lifespan of the building system.

Over and OUT

Peter N

Apr 30, 18 12:41 pm
JLC-1

I used to like these houses without eaves, until I started building houses.

Apr 30, 18 5:20 pm
citizen

^ Yes. Not just gutterless, but eaveless. This affects only drainage but also shade, shadows, wear of wall finishes, and 8 other brilliantly considered aspects I can't think of right now.

Uuuuugggh I hear you JLC-1 but I looooooooove the look of eaveless pitched roofs!!! Edward Durell Stone, John Pawson....sooooooo pretty but I know they don't make sense!

citizen

Better sleeveless than eaveless =o)

JLC-1

I could understand eavelessness in a dry and always cloudy climate, but for 99% of the world it's not the case. Now you get the contradiction that is being an architect? cool and pretty don't work well with sustainable and comfortable. took me a while to let go.

tduds

"cool and pretty don't work well with sustainable and comfortable." Challenge accepted.

Volunteer

Gutters are used to keep water from eroding the house foundation over time. Often you will need an additional pipe along the ground to receive the runoff from a downspout on one side of the house to another side of the house where the runoff can be dispersed more easily. This pipe can either be buried or above ground by the side of the house.

Apr 30, 18 6:43 pm
Volunteer

Here are high-end copper gutters on a high-end modern house. The house has a copper roof as well. Expensive.

May 1, 18 10:08 am
joseffischer

Your house?

rich_9999

Why are you posting about copper gutters? The context of this discussion is gutterless building and not expensive guttering materials.

Volunteer

Sad to say, not. The home is by zone 4 architects. It is the 'Morning star' house on their website. It is located in Aspen and the interior shots are equally attractive.

randomised

That's no high-end modern house in my book.

This is:

...and it has eaves :)

Volunteer

Looks like something they found when they drained one of your canals. How long had it been underwater?

That's an excellent burn, Volunteer! I like the house, but I appreciate that you used a funny insult that doesn't attack anyone personally to make your opinion known. Our OP here could learn from you.

randomised

Nice one Volunteer, although I am a fan of weathered concrete and other traces of nature in buildings, I'll be sure to pass on the message next time I see Peter Zumthor...still think that cabin with the copper roof is kitsch, could be standing next to that Zaha house for a Russian oligarch.

joseffischer

Should have known it was a Zumthor piece... I like both of them, but would prefer to live in the not-modern one. Copper is warm to me.

Volunteer

rich_999,

Architects always want to reinvent the wheel but seem to always leave the roundness out. The post points out that gutters and downspouts can be attractive as well as useful which makes the whole point of hiding them pointless. Sorry if you were offended.

May 1, 18 11:13 am
rich_9999

Why would I be offended? It takes a little more to make me cry. The point you are making is redundant. If the thread was asking what do you consider to be the most beautiful guttering material on the market? Maybe then the post has some merit. This thread is about gutterless building and the technology behind them. What is attractive is pure conjecture. You just said you think that building is attractive. I disagree, I think it's pretty mediocre looking with some 'gutter bling' If that what you think makes for good design then okay. I think it about striving for better and simpler solutions.

Volunteer

A building without gutters is not 'better' nor 'simpler'. A copper gutter and downspout assembly will last 100 years. How long do you think the mishmash setups on the 'gutterless' buildings pictured in this thread will last? Not very long. Then the owner gets to rip up the walls and roof every few years for very expensive repairs.

JLC-1

better and simpler is pure conjecture - the image you posted of a proper rain screen is not how they did the building on your original post, can you spot the failure and how it will turn the beautiful wood sticks into mush in 2 years?

Non Sequitur

Just one failure? Like pick our favorite? That's a hard choice to make, so many good options.

JLC-1

well yes, the vertical sticks are attached to a horizontal strip that's collecting water even in a drought; the first one up will fail first, but it will make all the sticks turn and moan from that point up. We just finished a "trespa" type facade on a house with vertical pattern, had to use perforated galvanized strips proprietary to the manufacturer of the panels, otherwise no warranties.

Non Sequitur

I personally like the air-bubbles in the mod-bit membrane. Good quality control there.... my contractors would have cut and redone that section instantly.

rich_9999

JLC-1 The battening running horizontal to the membrane is clearly incorrect. It needs to be cross battened with the vertical member being attacted to the membrane first. The point of the second picture was to show the membrane and ask if anybody knows what it is.

Wood Guy

Often the bubbles don't show until you're done and the sun hits it. Once it offgasses the bubbles go away.

Non Sequitur

Wood guy, that makes sense. I guess I don't typically specify that type of membrane on the vertical.

Wood Guy

I never have either, but back in my contracting days I sometimes put down EPDM roofs and on one of my first ones I came back the next day to see huge bubbles everywhere. I ripped it all off and started over. Then later learned it's more or less normal. Expensive lesson learned.

tintt

If you guys were women, you all would be the kind of women who wear stilettos on a hike and then wonder why you break your ankles all the time. 

May 1, 18 2:04 pm
Non Sequitur

But we'd be damn sexy so it's worth the effort.

tintt

that goes without saying

citizen

Doesn't Sears sell a line of stiletto hiking boots?

tintt

Not anymore. Too many lawsuits.

citizen

Vindication!

Wood Guy

.

May 1, 18 2:50 pm
randomised

That dot is for the shoes, no?

Wood Guy

Ha, no, I was showing off a couple of eave-less Passive Houses I worked on. Not really appropriate for the direction the thread has taken. I dig the shoes, though--I'd wear them if I could pull it off.

randomised

:)

I wonder what will happen in a few years when pests have built nests under the cladding, or wind driven sleet freezes in all those gaps, and starts expanding and popping the fasteners.  Imagine the homeowner's face when the contractor tells him that the slats have to come off so that the hornets nests can be cleaned out.

These kind of shimmy scrimmy cladding systems just seem ill advised to me, and kind of pointless.  But they look good in a blog post, which seems to be the top criterion these days.  Instant gratification, but unsustainable.

May 1, 18 4:49 pm
rich_9999

Old timer you are irrelevant. Go take your prehistoric ideas about construction to someone who cares. I'm getting bored with all this nonsense. Either add useful information to the thread about the technology or just don't say anything at all. I get it this type of architecture is threatening your lifestyle, we know you are becoming irrelevant within the space. Kit houses are taking away your income stream and it's making you bitter. If you want a shoulder to cry on go find your wife. This is not the place for it. Please, only constructive information to further the conversation regarding the technology.

Non Sequitur

and you wonder why no one is answering your questions. Did you just graduate from a 3rd tier school yesterday? It certainly shows.

rich_9999

Stop trolling this thread. You have nothing to add to the conversation and you are encouraging like-minded individuals to chime in with their own special brand of BS. I'm trying to steer this conversation in the right direction. People who are offended can take their offence to someone who cares. This thread is over 100 posts deep now and more than 95% is people giving their opinion. I don't care about peoples opinions I care about experienced people discussing the technology.

Non Sequitur

And we did discuss it. You’re just too stuck to see the answer.

rich_9999

Non Sequitur - There isn't a block button unfortunately but I did create this thread and feel you are not welcome. Be a sport and consider yourself blocked from posting. I urge you to go start your own discussion I promise I won't follow you.


rich_9999

Every point you made was irrelevant. The arguement that pest can build a nest under the cladding is irrelevant? The cladding is open everywhere. Why does it have to be under? I get what you're trying to say. Generally, you fix a metal guard at the bottom of a closed cladding system. In the context of this system, it is a mute point. The membrane becomes the protection. In which case the membrane has to be designed correctly. As far as the hornet's nest scenario goes. The slats are open, meaning the hornet's nest is visible. Why would you take off a whole cladding system? you wouldn't. You would remove about 6 slats to remove the nest. Pretty easy job. Not that Hornets are a huge problem in the UK anyway. Popping the fasteners? To what you are referring I do not know. If it's the membrane I'd say no. it will be some form of PVA and a contact adhesive around the perimeter. No Fasteners. If you are talking about the wood cladding. Then we are talking about a nail gun fixing. Maybe that's what you are referring. I've got cedar cladding on my outbuilding and a nail gun was used as the fixing method. No issues and it's industry standard. I don't see what your point is? I might have been a bit abrupt but you really have no valid point and it was a gradual progression of annoyance I was feeling mostly directed towards Non Sequitur who is a little weasel might I add. I will apologise for my response I shouldn't have been so abrupt with you specifically.

Wood Guy

Sticking to the technology: if I understand you correctly, you're proposing to attach the horizontal battens to a membrane roof with gun nails? Yeah, that won't leak. 

rich_9999

No I'm not. That is specifically concerning how you traditionally attach the cladding to the cross batten.

Wood Guy

Oh, gotcha. I would use screws (and have in similar situations) due to the short penetration depth but that's not the issue. It seems consistent that the biggest problem with the proposed system is how do you fasten the battens through the membrane in a way that is guaranteed to not leak. I don't think there is a way that will last long-term. I'm doing a project now with 16 stainless steel posts poking up through a low-slope EPDM room to support a rooftop deck. Even that has us nervous but our engineer assures us it will be fine. I think neoprene gaskets could work, as they do for screw-down metal roofing, but it would be hard at best to do it properly.

:)

That was stunningly rude.  You've got a lot to learn, sonny boy.

May 1, 18 5:11 pm
Non Sequitur

You’ve missed quite the party.

bowling_ball

Internet person:  "Hey architects, please help me solve this issue.  Apparently I retired at 30 but am not willing to pay a professional for an hour of their time."

Architects:  "With the right details, we can solve that issue. But be warned it's not usually a good idea, based on a collective of several hundred years experience."

Internet person: "I don't agree with you, based on nothing in particular! You're not helping me for free and I deserve to be helped for free! That hurts my feelings! I'm taking my ball and going home!"

Glorious.

May 1, 18 6:11 pm
bowling_ball

You got it that right.

Non Sequitur

Brilliant.

rich_9999

Do you mean a professional like you? I've addressed his points and I am right and he's wrong. Been as though you cannot see the error in his statements I guess you are wrong also. If I was someone who didn't understand building technology and came to you for advice I'd be paying for bad advice. How Ironic.

Non Sequitur

Richie, no where have you demonstrated anyone here “wrong”.

rich_9999

You really are a little weasel. I thought you were busy? You respond within minutes and you have done so all day. Are you unemployed? Go read Eric Evans first post look at his points. Then look down at where I address them. Tell me which part is wrong?

Non Sequitur

I’m rather swamped with work, but junior folks like you make worth while distractions. Reconsider your approach to this forum, like bowling alludes to, and perhaps you’ll find more helpful answers. Until you figure this out, expect some ridicule.

rich_9999

Do you think people like you? I know I can be disagreeable. I also know when and when not to be. You, on the other hand, have the most punchable personality I've come across in a long time. Please stop with this nonsense about being swamped. You are unemployed.

rich_9999

I want you to know I see what your doing, it hasn't gone unnoticed. Every time I've challenged you to back up your arguments you have refused. You are ignorant, Ignorance is bliss they say you can't be mad about the things you don't know. You are a know it all that knows nothing. You have displayed that all day. I'm not responding to you anymore. Even though I could, you know because whilst you get up at 7 am every day and make that daily commute I'm in bed doing whatever I want to.

Non Sequitur

glad you can convince yourself of that and I get up at 5:30am because of adult responsibilities.

rich_9999

Why would I pay a proffessional when I am one? 

May 1, 18 6:22 pm
Non Sequitur

You’re not.

rich_9999

Funny, my degree says otherwise.

Non Sequitur

what does your professional association and clients say?

bowling_ball

If you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't be asking anonymous people on the internet. Case closed.

"my degree says otherwise"

Hahaha 

Classic!

rich_9999

Bowling Ball - I have never used this system before. That's inexperience, not a lack of not knowing what I'm doing. I understand the issues at play and was asking for advice. This is not something to be ashamed of. Maybe if you didn't have such an arrogant attitude you would feel comfortable admitting you don't know everything. This is a direct comment you made "With the right details, we can solve that issue. But be warned it's not usually a good idea, based on a collective of several hundred years experience." Yeah because modern gutterless building technology is hundreds of years old. You sound like a complete tool. Direct comment from myself Do you mean a professional like you? I've addressed his points and I am right and he's wrong. Been as though you cannot see the error in his statements I guess you are wrong also. If I was someone who didn't understand building technology and came to you for advice I'd be paying for bad advice. How Ironic. I absolutely destroyed you. Honestly, you are welcome to look at Erik's comment and look at my response and find the error. That coward Non Sequitur ran from it. You are welcome to try.

Non Sequitur

How's that hole?

bowling_ball

Keep going, rich9999, I'm finally hard. Tell me what a nasty architect I've been! Ooooh yeahhhh

rich_9999

Deflect and avoid. I've mugged you right off. You and Non Sequitur are dumb beyond all comprehension.

Non Sequitur

Not feeding you answers makes us dumb? At least we know how to detail properly.

bowling_ball

You're right. We're dumb. For having indulged you. Anyway I finally finished. Thanks for the sexy insults. Time for sleep.

rich_9999

You have no answers and I am aware of the answers. I've been talking about them all day. Refining my understanding is totally different to being clueless. You two wouldn't get that. I've been pointing out that every single muppet on this thread doesn't have a clue. Clearly not a popular stance to take but it's the truth. There are a few exceptions. Maybe you don't feel shame but I would suggest you both try to pick your battles. I've made you two look like a pair of unprofessional twerps. You don't know what your doing. And to think Bowling Ball you had the cheek to say I need to pay a professional.

Non Sequitur

Don't make us explain truth to you too.

Yoda: "The cup is full with this one."

rich_9999

Miles Jaffe - You are welcome to quote my posts and show me where I am wrong. I'm not against the idea of being proven wrong. I doubt you have the ability to argue your case. Be careful, I hold you to your words. This is where the last two plums went wrong. They couldn't back up their assertions. Have a bash, let's see how unscathed you come out the other end.

Non Sequitur

It's not that we can't, it's that we choose not to.

bowling_ball

Serious question: If you already know what you're doing, why are you here asking for help? It makes no sense. You can't admit that you don't know what you're talking about, yet insult the people who are exposing your ignorance. But you're not really here for answers, are you?

joseffischer

Hey now everyone, I'm sure that degree cost a good sum of money, it's got to be worth something, no?

citizen

Yikes!  Is that another incarnation of WhistleBlowingPsycho or whoever promulgated that stupid Excel file?

bowling_ball's skit is observant, except that the immature idiot rarely goes home.  If only.

May 1, 18 7:01 pm
rich_9999

People are quick to jump on the bandwagon and pursue a mob like mentality against the one who sticks his neck up. It doesn't matter who is right. The only person I need to apologise to is Erik, I admit that was a moment of frustration that he ended up being on the wrong side of. Either way, I have no interest in being agreeable just for the sake of it.

Actually most here are prone to a degree of professionalism based on decades of experience that you can't even begin to imagine. Your precious degree is the equivalent of toilet paper woven with gold fiber.

rich_9999

I don't care about my degree. You are not hurting my feelings.

Funny, my degree says otherwise.

OneLostArchitect

integral gutters, it’s can be a cluster fuck if you don’t do it right. 

May 1, 18 7:39 pm
jla-x


Gutters are dumb.  Prove me wrong. 



May 1, 18 8:13 pm
rich_9999

That's a smart man. How do you traffic huge sums of money across borders without paying tax? You wear it.

citizen

I love that he drew the line at a pinky ring. Because THAT would have been too much.

jla-x

Lol good observation citizen.

rich_9999

Miles Jaffe - A sagging roof is a maintenance issue. The very fact someone has to remedy a sagging roof should help you work that one out. I actually worked within the industry and sagging roof on old buildings are especially common. Whether the roof was under engineered is irrelevant. The defect is there.

I noticed you ignored my challenge. We have another little weasel who takes digs and throws stones but doesn't dare to step into the arena of good ideas.


May 1, 18 9:53 pm
Non Sequitur

Miles, as well as Chris, will run laps around you without breaking a sweat. As a more serious note, is EPDM common in your area? I believe I've only ever use it in one project and not a single sales rep, or GC, tries to sneak it in.

Yo - Einstein.

You "refuted" the sagging roof issue with "40 and sometimes up to 50-year warranties on EPDM".

Classic Straw Man. LOL, maybe you should Google that, too.

FYI, a sagging roof isn't "a maintenance issue", it's a structural issue. Are you sure you have an architectural degree? Because if you do it isn't worth a shit.

joseffischer

TPO is less costly and seems to last longer. EPDM priced itself out?? Like a decade back, we were doing some 30-year TPO jobs where due to acute bends, the roofing manufacturer stated we couldn't install the 80-mil product in that area. He recommended EPDM... but at a 15-year warranty. We ended up going with 60-mil for those areas and got the 30 year warranty anyway. It's not like the warranty ever holds up in court or gets your problem fixed years down the road. I've noticed reps are really pushing the permaflash/ultraflash/insert branding here liquid flashing single sleave systems in TPO recently. We're showing conduit and gas pipe penetrations with the permaflash details in lieu of creating sheet metal vaults or goosenecks. It's definitely cheaper, and I hope the schools don't have problems within 20 years, because the schools will let those roofs leak until they get the federal money to replace the roofs at the 20 year mark.

joseffischer

We still have some school counties where modified ends up cheaper than TPO, usually rural.

rich_9999

Keep misquoting me you fucking loser.You are the type of dork that people would have made your life a misery in high school. If you have a problem come do something you little bitch.

May 1, 18 11:48 pm
Non Sequitur

Ah yes, classic. Peeps keep the bottom rung of the staff pool filled.

"Keep misquoting me"

"However, maintenance of a building is normal. Removing the cladding and putting a new membrane every 30 years is no different to having a sagging roof from heavy roof tiles for instance. All buildings need maintenance."

"A sagging roof is a maintenance issue."

No misquotes here.

rich_9999

​If you think tiles cannot cause a roof to sag. https://roofity.com/2015/07/21/is-your-roof-sagging-here-are-some-possible-causes/ ... Go hang your head in shame. You just called me stupid for saying a fact. Hahahahahahahah​

Straw Man. [yawn]

Overloading a structure will cause structural failure. This is not a maintenance issue.

The question is not 'are you are stupid': you've proven that repeatedly.

rich_9999

Steel man 'Your joist and rafters can lose structural strength over time. The weight that comes from items like heavy shingles .... Eventually, the weight becomes too much for the roof to bear.'  Turns out you can't even read a simple paragraph without misunderstanding it. Concrete tiles are heavier than shingles. Thus tiles can cause a roof to sag. I win you lose.

From your own link: "A sagging roof is a sure sign that something needs repairing fast." Notice that it doesn't say 'maintenance' but 'repair'. Also note that the website is a roofing contractor in Texas, not a building or professional institute. This doesn't support your infantile position any more than cursing out every person who disagrees with you or even posts in this thread, which in both fact and effect only works to make you look even more foolish, egocentric, and mentally unbalanced than your ignorance of the basic meaning of simple words that a grade school student should know the difference between. You are at best sadly amusing as self-styled internet authority on matters that you know nothing of and I pity both you and those who must endure you on a regular basis.

rich_9999

You are next level pathetic. You are wrong, not even Non Sequitur has backed you up on this. That guy has little to no shame and he's quite. Well since I pointed out what an idiot you are. I didn't have to look long for that website it was literally the first search. I'm not interested in scouring the internet to appease a shit for brain like you. Egocentric maybe, however, I have challenged you to look through all my posts today and find a FACT I have said that is wrong. You have declined. We can then conclude you are arguing from a basis of pure emotion. There aren't many things more egocentric than arguing when you are wrong and unlike you, I'm not to shy to point out all the errors your clang of losers have made. To which there are too many to count at this point.

rich_9999

No judge I didn't cut my murder victim up with the kitchen knife I used the family cleaver. Do you see how dumb that sound? Using that as a defence wouldn't hold water. That's about as viable an argument as your repair/maintain defence. Just gross! You slimy little rat.

senjohnblutarsky

Since you're acting the way you are, this will probably help little. But..... Clay tile roofing is somewhere in the 12-19 psf range. Concrete tile is in the 12 psf range. Lightweight clay tile is 6psf. But, if we're looking at a roof design for shingles, they're more in the 3 psf range. Metal will be in the 2-3 psf range. So, if some underinformed designer slaps tile on a roof designed for shingles, it's going to sag. The load aren't at all comparable. The resultant sagging is not a maintenance issue. It is a design failure and structural failure. Sagging causes other members to deform, can cause joints to open up, and can cause fastener failure. You'd see wrinkles, waviness, or inconsistencies in any rainscreen applied over a surface that sags.

joseffischer

I haven't gotten to use the "plastic slate" tiles that are out yet. They look really nice and are light, but the only clients we have that use slate (higher-ed) like to throw their money at slate. *shrug*

jla-x


Rain can be fun. 



May 2, 18 2:43 am
jla-x

Or maybe use gutters to collect rainwater....but style over substance I guess....

RickB-Astoria

Thank you for that comedy. That was good. As long as it doesn't get decidedly yellow !!!!

RickB-Astoria

I missed the dumpster fire but thanks to tin man above, we won't have a forest fire.

I'd been too busy working between class work and being the 'architect' of a virtual city (LOL.... I'll explain in private email under confidentiality. It's all 0s and 1s, anyway). 


May 2, 18 4:31 am
Non Sequitur

Welcome to the fun zone Ricky. The wanker OP needs help with basic definitions and materiel sequencing.

Non Sequitur

stupid french keyboard.

senjohnblutarsky

Dear lord this is priceless.

There are some posters on this forum I'd like to meet in person.  This is one. I probably don't want to talk to them.  Just observe.  I feel like it would have some potential for great amounts of entertainment. 

May 2, 18 8:13 am
JLC-1

oh boy

May 2, 18 10:14 am
mightyaa

My two cents...

Ummm wow.  Install a heavy load where you shouldn't, and things fall apart.  Not maintenance; overburdened structure that needs re-engineered to take the loads.  Throw something like a ice dam on there, and it will collapse; seen it a few times.

EPDM is a terrible choice if you are using mechanical fasteners through it.  It will leak and leak and leak.  Pay a lot of attention to your connection details.  I'd do a fluid applied, preferably with a perm rating.

Rainscreen system would be the way to go.

Funny with all those cool photo's; Where are the plumbing stacks, ventilation for mechanical equipment, etc.?  Good luck getting around code with that stuff.

Gutters aren't needed.  Here in Colorado in the mountains, we do not use them since all they do is freeze and cause ice dams before they rip off and come crashing down; soils are also good allowing for drainage to keep it off the foundations.  Overhangs are nice; They help protect the leading edges of your weatherbarriers on the walls.  But if you are wrapping and can transition seamless, you are theoretically good.

Ventilation is required for attics.  That can be done mechanically though and doesn't have to be soffit and ridge vents. If you are doing something solid, pay real close attention to the thickness of the panel and insulation.  

You'll need to watchout for condensation issues and vapor drive when you wrap.  Most roofing doesn't allow for perm ratings.  And tiny houses like this tend to have very elevated humidity levels (showers, cooking, people, etc.).  It'll look like the shower walls rapidly.  Something like this you'll want to run through the calculations and deal with it.

Wood is a terrible material for the rainscreen.  First, it will warp when it's nice thin members.  Second, you can't maintain it when it's attached like that.  10 year lifespan, maybe more if you go with certain species.  That's about it before you'll be re-cladding when you expose wood like that.  Think about deck rails & pickets except you can't re-stain or seal the backs once it's installed. (which also is why you'll warp as one side gets saturated once the sealer starts failing)  Consider detailing so the panels can be removed for future maintenance.

Next fun is fire rating.  Most jurisdictions will require something on the exterior assuming you're putting it somewhere scenic (prone to forest fires or brush fires).   

Design approach should be more like an exoskeleton if it were up to me. A 'wrap' around the real house.. then you can use real skylights, etc. all hidden below the roof trelliswork...


May 2, 18 1:15 pm
jla-x

Funny how not-minimal it sometimes is to get the appearance of minimal.

jla-x

Only time I would like this look is if the House was monolithic. I’ve seen some concrete ones that are cool...

mightyaa- I can't wait for rich_9999 to call you a f'in a-hole to prove that he's right. But I suspect his time here has passed.

Rusty!

"EPDM is a terrible choice if you are using mechanical fasteners through it. It will leak and leak and leak. Pay a lot of attention to your connection details. I'd do a fluid applied, preferably with a perm rating." I said the exact same thing upthread, but this thread is not really about building shit. It's more about meaning of life and being grateful for internet snapping turtles going at each other. No technical or construction knowledge necessary.

Non Sequitur

Hey, who you calling turtle? Can I at least be Raphael?

Rusty!

Which turtle does really gross things to pizza? You are that one.

RickB-Astoria

Michaelangelo

Non Sequitur

Pineapple? That shit's delicious.

Does that make me Splinter?

Schoon

Holy cow, last time I was in here it was just a civil discussion about gutters.

Miles is right.  A roof may sag over time due to creep, but excessive creep is the result of poor structural design, and not a maintenance issue.  Maybe you think that this is splitting hairs, but words have specific meanings and should be used correctly. 

rich, you should read the "about us" page on your roofing source.  It's almost as entertaining as this thread.

May 2, 18 8:24 pm
proto

That About Us really is precious. I tried to double-click copy the phrase "Subject Matter Experts", and it pops up an alert saying, "Subject matter is protected." ...I guess they really are Subject Matter Experts!

jph.b

Not sure about the cladding but see this detail for the gutter/roof junction.

ttps://inspiration.detail.de/...

May 3, 18 10:27 am
joseffischer

hmm.. but this isn't gutterless, so the OP won't allow it.

jph.b

Should've specified hidden gutter :)

May 3, 18 11:18 am

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