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Asked to train my competitor

gebr

There's 2 junior architects in our office. I am the one with the best technical skills (took several internships while at school). The other guy is better at front end work, sketching and concept visuals. I usually do the heavy software work. However, now the boss wants me to give the other guy (my competitor) software training. I wonder what the boss' motive is. Is it about getting both of us juniors at the same skill level or perhaps looking to replace me? Obviously I don't want to train the other guy to do my work. I am afraid that if I refuse I 'll make a poor impression and encourage the boss to get rid of me. How can I avoid this while still appearing a team player? How would you deal with this? I think I ll send out a few CVs just in case.


 
Jan 24, 18 2:38 pm

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All 31 Comments

JLC-1

you have to let go of your constant paranoia - If I was asked to do something like it, I would assume it is to see if the guy can get to your level, because he is not there, so you have a high hand. Train him, do it well, but at the same time improve yourself in areas that can't be taught to the other guy.

Jan 24, 18 2:44 pm
LITS4FormZ

As you move up in the ranks, training/mentoring others will become an increasingly valuable skill that is never taught in school or really fostered in practice. 

Demonstrating mentoring and teaching abilities will show that you are ready to take on more responsibility in your current firm. If you move on from your current firm, this would be a great talking point in an interview and again a rare experience for a junior architect to have. 

Jan 24, 18 2:50 pm
JonathanLivingston

You establish your authority and value by sharing what you know not keeping it to yourself. If I found out that one of my employees had this sort of mentality I would be looking to off load them, quickly. 

Jan 24, 18 3:06 pm
JonathanLivingston

You should think of it as freeing yourself to do greater things.

Bloopox

The problem is apparent in your thread title. You certainly won't appear to be a team player if you look at the other guy as your "competitor".  You won't appear to be a team player unless you can actually look at your coworkers as teammates and work with them that way.

Your boss sees your skills as valuable, and something that would be useful for both of you to have.  He sees you as competent to train someone.  These are good things.  So there are two possibilities: 1. Your boss wants both of you to have your skills, because they're useful enough skills that it would be good to have 2 people who can do them at once, or so that he can be more flexible in assigning each of you to project tasks/phases. Perhaps the other guy also has skills that your boss will later ask him to train you in.   Or 2. Your boss wants you to train him so that he'll have your skills and they won't be missed when you're let go.

It's more likely to be Reason 1.  But even if it is Reason 2, it's not going to help you at all to be difficult about it.  Do a good job and at least you can leave with a good reference.

Jan 24, 18 3:18 pm
null pointer

Ask for a raise. It's like you guys don't understand basic economics/finance.

If you ever need to work for the enemy, or someone who could pose a risk to your status, you need to price in the risk.

Simple

Jan 24, 18 3:33 pm
Xenakis

don't do it - I did, and now, i'm reporting to someone with 1/2 my experience and now im told my job is on the line

Jan 24, 18 4:09 pm
archietechie

^ Always refreshing to hear the contrarian POV.

null pointer

Yeah, but you like it. Learned helplessness is learned.

gebr

Xenakis, thank you. It's common

gebr

Xenakis, thank you. It's common sense isn't it?

bowling_ball

No, it's not common sense. Look at it this way - if you're a junior architect (not sure what that means) and you're seen only as your software skills, your employer sucks and you don't want to work with them anyway. On the other hand, this is a totally normal situation and the paranoia isn't going to do anybody any good.

Non Sequitur

GEBR, I'd get rid of you in a flash if you see your coworkers are competitors.... it's a team deal and such attitudes are poisonous.  

Jan 24, 18 4:27 pm
JonathanLivingston

Agreed. This kind of attitude more than anything is what prevents teams from getting better.

revitmonk
Maybe ask your boss if that guy can teach you design and “front end work”?
Jan 24, 18 4:29 pm
archanonymous

if you are on the clock getting paid for this, shut up and do the work you were assigned. 


He is your co-worker, not your competitor. 

The only people I've ever run in to who treated their firm like this were not nearly as good as they thought they were. The one's who are most open and excited to share, teach, and learn are usually the smartest, brightest, and most motivated people in the office.

Jan 24, 18 5:03 pm
bowling_ball

Exactly. So much. The more open and amenable you are, while following through, the more valuable you are to the firm. Even though at times I've been cynical of the stuff going on around me at the office, I've almost always said yes. It works.

gebr

Let's get some things straight:

1)I am an architect and was hired in an architectural position. Training employees in software is outside the scope of my services. To me it seems that the boss is a cheapskate who doesn't want to pay for seminars or software consultants like all respectable practices do.

2)Contrary to my wish, the other guy is my competitor as he is actively competing against me. I didn't initiate this kind of relationship, but he did. At times he attempted to make me look bad in the eyes of the management and at other times he tried to dump his dirty work on me, when he couldn't finish in time for a deadline. The way it works in my practice is more like every man for himself, rather than team effort. It's very tough and competitive.

3) I am not going to be a pushover and give away hard earned experience without getting anything back. The argument that I am get paid for this is absurd. As I stated above my billable time described I my contract relates to architectural service and not software skills handout.



Jan 24, 18 5:17 pm
JonathanLivingston

Disgusting. Wouldn't want this kind of thing anywhere near my practice. Sounds like you need to start your own solo practice in a hole somewhere.

gebr

Yes the real world is disgusting did you just realise?

JonathanLivingston

Mine is not. As an Architect the world is truly what you make of it.

gebr

An idealist commenting on the internet. How uncommon.

JonathanLivingston

I run into a lot of materialist pricks like yourself, they don't last long 

gebr

I think they last the longest. They are called businessmen.

Lackey

Good Lord JL - we don't know the whole story, you are speculating a lot on GEBR's credibility. Lighten up.

geezertect

^ Yes, JL, if the world is what you made of it then why don't you clean it up tomorrow afternoon? Start with Syria, maybe.

Seriously, we don't know all the facts and never will.  The OP may be paranoid with good reason.  Doesn't sound like he's in a good place, at least for him.  Maybe the boss senses this and is trying to milk the cow one last time before sending it to the slaughter house.

sameolddoctor

"I am an architect and was hired in an architectural position. Training employees in software is outside the scope of my services."

This says a lot about you. You are a whiny prick, and not interested in advancing up the chain, as you dont want to mentor or even help anyone. You will remain a lowly draftsman for ever and ever if you dont change your attitude.

Non Sequitur
^fired. Sour people like you are a dime a dozen. No room for this drama.
Jan 24, 18 5:22 pm
thisisnotmyname

Get another job and leave your current firm.  "Every man for himself" offices are dreadful places to work.  There are much better places out there.

Jan 24, 18 5:38 pm
Steeplechase

Sounds more like a personal problem than a firm problem.

thisisnotmyname

Not necessarily, I've been in multiple firms where management thought it was a good idea to pit staff members against each other.

Steeplechase

I’m not doubting that toxic environments exist, but given the general attitude presented this sounds more like it will be a persistent problem.

gebr

I don't care if you don't like my stance on this. It seems quite hypocritical actually as if you haven't ever experienced a competitive environment. In any case the guy I am referring to is a co-worker but doesn't act like one, so I am not going to support him.


Jan 24, 18 5:40 pm
JonathanLivingston

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

Le Courvoisier

^$10 bucks he doesn't tell his boss that.

Good luck with your unemployment and job search.

Jan 24, 18 5:43 pm
null pointer

Yup. If any of my employees came to me with the same complaint, I'd take that hint of malice / competitiveness and figure out whether it's worth cultivating it into a partner or whether I should fire his ass.

RickB-Astoria

I'm with Non Sequitur. I would can you if you aren't willing to work as a team of equals. Look, I'm willing to have business partners that are licensed architects. The idea is we work as a team of peers.... equals.... not competitors. The competitive environment is because you're  pitted against each other trying to screw each other to become Principal. 

If that is the attitude I would be getting from employees, I would can both of you. Remember, while you may have skills, you're not unique and can be replaced with other people with comparable skills. It isn't about the 10 or 20 year old software. We just move to something newer that does the same thing. Bite the bullet and get someone else and replace both of you. Think about it. One day, you two might later on form a partnership and start your own firm together because neither of you may ever become Principals with that attitude. 

If you two left the firm and started your own, wouldn't you two want to be seeing each other as equal and as a team instead of a dysfunctional pair that can't get anything done together. This is not the kind of attitude to have in architecture when you are on the same team. Football teams with that kind of attitude between each other on the team is a failure of a football team because they don't work together. 

Gebr, what makes you think you are so special?

Jan 24, 18 6:08 pm
mantaray
If your workplace is really that toxic then why do you stay?

Wouldn't you PREFER to work in a place where colleagues don't view each other as competitors if, as you say, this dynamic is being foisted on you unwillingly?

Sounds depressing as hell. And fitting that Xenakis is the only one who agrees with you... he has a notorious persecution complex.
Jan 24, 18 6:15 pm
StephenW

you've said in previous threads that you think this firm is struggling recently. There have been layoffs and you're worried about your job security. But you think they should spend money on sending your coworker to software camp.  If it comes down to spending on that or your salary, which do you prefer?


You said your coworker actively tries to make you look bad. You'll be giving him the ultimate way to do that by not training him.


I'd say, given your feelings about the situation, that you should leave by your own decision, as quickly as possible.  If you stay you most likely will be on the chopping block soon as you fear - and with a bad reputation to follow you.  Get another job as soon as you can, and quit graciously, then ask for a reference letter.

Jan 24, 18 6:18 pm
gebr

Yes the firm I cheap so I wouldn't expect them to spend too much money on software training. When l asked them for training they said no. I would however expect the other guy to sacrifice his evenings (like all non entitled grown ups do) and learn the software rather than waste my billable time before badmouthing me once more to the management.

sameolddoctor

VERY FEW firms spend on software training. Even the large ones will send a COUPLE of their employees to Autodesk University and cal it a day. If the boss wants you to use his billable hours to even take a dump, you do it without whining like a spoilt kid.

bowling_ball

Yes, gebr doesn't see that the boss IS spending money on software training - sacrificing both their and their co-worker's billable hours.

RickB-Astoria

Let's get some things straight:

1)I am an architect and was hired in an architectural position. Training employees in software is outside the scope of my services. To me it seems that the boss is a cheapskate who doesn't want to pay for seminars or software consultants like all respectable practices do.

2)Contrary to my wish, the other guy is my competitor as he is actively competing against me. I didn't initiate this kind of relationship, but he did. At times he attempted to make me look bad in the eyes of the management and at other times he tried to dump his dirty work on me, when he couldn't finish in time for a deadline. The way it works in my practice is more like every man for himself, rather than team effort. It's very tough and competitive.

3) I am not going to be a pushover and give away hard earned experience without getting anything back. The argument that I am get paid for this is absurd. As I stated above my billable time described I my contract relates to architectural service and not software skills handout.

Let me make this straight for you.... you are an employee. You do what you are told or you're fired. (of course within legal reason) You don't define your services. You don't offer services. Your employer.... the firm does that. This isn't an independent contractor relationship. 

You are NOT a consultant to the firm. You are the firm's employee. You're job is whatever is assigned to you to do by the employer.... the firm's Principal(s).... the owner(s) of the firm. 

Shut up, do your job, or you're fired. You can always be replaced. 

Training employees is your job as well as every task assigned to you to do. It is not up to negotiation. If you don't like your job, quit. 

Remember, there is probably a clause in there, according to your employment contract and law that as an employee, that says something like: ", and any other task assigned by supervisors." 

Since the employer is your boss, he is your supervisor and legally is entitled to assigned any lawful task to employee. Employers have statutory rights to assigned any lawful task to employees. Almost every employee contract that exists has a clause that basically authorizes the employer to assigned any other task (lawful, of course) to you that is not explicitly enumerated throughout your employment contract. 

Every employee needs to come to work knowing that they may have to do tasks that are not explicitly spelled out in contract. Employers get to decide what you do and what to assigned you to do. If you can't do your job, you can quit or you can find yourself fired or you do your job.... warts and all.

Jan 24, 18 6:25 pm
RickB-Astoria

gebr, Basically, I want you to step back and remember that you are above all, JUST an employee. Stop acting like you are your own boss. Remember your place in the firm. The employer is your boss. The employer decides what you do and what tasks to inform you. Remember, it's not a democracy. The owners of the firm are the dictators and it is their prerogative to assign any lawful task to do whenever and however they want it with law. While your role maybe predominately architectural (versus... say engineering or something else), they can assign you tasks including training your colleagues including training them in the software. Your attitude presents the attitude that you think the task is beneath you. You also seem to don't like this individual that you seem to not want to train.

Humble yourself and remember where you really are in totem pole of the firm.

Formerlyunknown

My bet is that your firm is slow, and your boss is trying to keep you both employed while they try to wait out a slump.  He's trying to find something to keep you both busy, while accomplishing something productive.  Instead of reading it as a "cheapskate" move, you might consider that it's an expression of optimism - they value you enough to try to keep you while they wait for some newer, bigger, better projects to come in, on which you can do what you're really there to do.  

Jan 24, 18 6:30 pm
RickB-Astoria

Great points.

geezertect

If the firm is slow, the boss is trying to see if he can consolidate two positions into one, i.e. lay off one person. Firms in this profession rarely keep someone on the payroll with busy work if the future looks slow. Hire/fire is the norm.

accesskb

You have problems.  I think we of all professions should realize that we can't make it far on our own.  Don't hesitate to teach anyone interested in learning.  Don't forget to learn more yourself so you are seen as an asset and not someone who can be easily replaced.

Jan 24, 18 8:35 pm
kjdt

It's difficult to understand what kind of advice you're seeking.  First you say you're worried about making a poor impression and getting fired.  In a previous post you said you've only been there a matter of months, you know you're not indispensable, a lot of projects have gone on hold, and several others have left that firm or not had their contracts renewed.    Overall I'd agree that's pretty thin ice.   You ask how to avoid making a bad impression and how you can look like a team player, but then you lash out at all suggestions about how to look like (or actually be) a team player.  And you say you're sending out CVs, but you don't seem to like it when others agree that might be a good idea.

So... what is the advice you're hoping for?  How about:  you should definitely continue to refuse to help the other guy.  You're an architect, that's not what you went to school for.  Make sure your boss knows it. You've been there a whole majority of a year already - that should be enough dues-paying! All those other people who left made it easy for you: the firm can't possibly afford to lose you too.  Go to your boss tomorrow morning with a list of demands.  Make sure to tell him how inferior your competitor is, and why you aren't going to train him.  That firm is your oyster now.

There.  Better now?

Jan 24, 18 11:05 pm
RickB-Astoria

I only say, make sure you (gebr) have a cardboard box with you to pack your belongings that you have the office. 

The boss just might give you a nice 24x36 size sheet in very large print, YOU'RE FIRED with a note to pack your shit and get out with the nice stamped seal of the architect boss. 

Ok..... it's probably not going to be with such big fan fare. 

You'd just likely be told, you're employment terminates at the close of the day and for you to pack your stuff. Just saying. Coming to the boss with a list of demands is almost certain recipe for getting canned. Get ready for that !!!!

randomised

Software knowledge is not as valuable as people think, anyone can go on YouTube and get a hang of it. You picked stuff up at some internships, big fucking deal...it's the front end stuff that makes the difference, that's where the ideas come from and the designs are made and the clients seduced. If you don't have those skills you'll reach your peak pretty soon and reach your plateau while others still grow, develop and learn, and they will become your superiors because they are architects. That's what your boss realised and he is using you to make your colleague a better asset to the firm, you're way more replaceable, anyone can do a couple of internships where skilled seniors show you the ropes, the front end stuff is where it's at...I'd seriously work on those and your attitude or you'll be unemployed pretty soon.

Jan 25, 18 2:52 am
Volunteer

You are really working for the clients of your firm who pay your salary in the final instance. Anything you can do to help them receive a better service from your firm, whether directed by your supervisor or not, is something you should do.

You are also building you own reputation as an employee. Whether that will be as a collegial employee willing to help out when things get tight or as a coworker who only looks out for himself is up to you.

Train the guy and be pleasant and friendly about it. In the unlikely instance you may be let go, thank the firm for the experience, offer to finish any outstanding work, and wish them well. There is no valid second option even if you were recruited by some starchitect over the phone today.



Jan 25, 18 9:12 am
jamesaleisterbarcelona

Do what Emily Charlton did for Andy Sachs. Guess who kept her job? 

Jan 25, 18 10:03 am
Wood Guy

Not to brag, but for perspective, I've never had a bit of trouble finding or keeping work. 22 years in the construction and/or design world, never one day without more work than I can take on. I think a key reason is that I have always shared whatever I know or learn freely. Although I'm not licensed, I have outlasted many more experienced and/or licensed architects and designers.

I've never worked at a big firm; I'm sure it can be different, but as a manager it's easy to spot the difference between a team player and someone who hoards their knowledge. Your manager is either testing you, keeping you employed until things pick up, or getting what they can out of you before they kick you out the door. In any of the three scenarios, what's the harm in sharing your knowledge? You may have better luck at another firm, but you should also reconsider your whole approach to the profession. 

Jan 25, 18 11:14 am
Xenakis

those of us who worked hard at developing BIM, arent just going to give away 8+ years of knowledge to a designer with 1- 3 years exp - they need to pay their dues like the rest of us - nobody rides for free

Jan 25, 18 12:47 pm
Non Sequitur

...and that's why you're constantly looking for work. I'm the go-to BIM/software guru in my office and I make a huge effort to train and explain things to the junior staff... and to add to that, regardless of how busy I am, I will always carve out time to teach or demonstrate something.  


Wood Guy

And you think that it takes more effort to learn BIM than it does to learn about building science, construction estimating, construction administration, client management, or any of the other thousand things an architect or designer should know, and that the less experienced folks in your firm would benefit from understanding? Please. Keep worrying about finding and keeping your next job. I'll keep worrying about how to get all of the projects on my desk completed.

gebr

When I asked for training on a software package I was not familiar with, the boss said no. I had to spend evenings to get up to speed. Why is the other guy expected to get a software skills handout instead? This is discrimination the least. This is what is happening and I won't sit there and get bullied out of my job by a kid that can only draw pretty pictures.

Wood Guy

Life isn't fair. We make our own luck. I've spent thousands upon thousands of hours of my own time, and thousands of dollars of my own money learning how to be better at my job. I give it away to colleagues for free (or get paid to teach or write about it). Good luck on your journey.

Wood Guy

Regarding discrimination, if you are in a protected class and the other person is not, it could be a different story.

5839

When you asked for software training and were turned down, was your office busier at that time? Was there billable work for your to do during the daytime that was more important? Is there billable work now for you to do? If so that will make it easier to attempt to get your boss to give up the idea of you training him. You can try saying you're too busy with [name of project] to spare the time.

If, on the other hand, there's nothing much billable to which to assign you right now, then you might need to look at this as an alternative between training him and hitting the street. 

Do you know whether there's some good project on hold right now, waiting in the wings, with good odds of coming along within a few weeks or a month or so?  If so then your firm's probably just trying to maintain a holding pattern and keep you busy.  If this is expected to be a short slow-down, up to 6 weeks or so, then it's more cost-effective to keep you doing busy-work than to hire someone new and start from scratch in training them, and you'll be better able to hit the new project running than a new hire would be.  That may be your firm's thinking.

RickB-Astoria

"When I asked for training on a software package I was not familiar with, the boss said no. I had to spend evenings to get up to speed. Why is the other guy expected to get a software skills handout instead? This is discrimination the least. This is what is happening and I won't sit there and get bullied out of my job by a kid that can only draw pretty pictures." 

No it is not discrimination. Discrimination is a legal principle defined by laws. Look up the laws on discrimination in your state. You can't even defend and hold a case of age discrimination unless you have tangible evidence because the burden of proving an argument begins with the one suing. The burden of proving your argument with substantial evidence is in YOUR court. Either you have the evidence or your lawsuit claim would be thrown out and case dismissed. 

Your problem is not age, gender, or any other bullshit pulling straws crap. Your problem is your attitude.

StephenW

He's in the UK. The protected classes and legal processes differ in some ways.

RickB-Astoria

"those of us who worked hard at developing BIM, arent just going to give away 8+ years of knowledge to a designer with 1- 3 years exp - they need to pay their dues like the rest of us - nobody rides for free" 

You aren't going to be teaching your 8 years of knowledge to someone even if you had a year of full-time instructing. You simply can't. What the boss wants for gebr.... same thing. Gebr simply can't possibly teach everything he learned just like you. You aren't expected to. 

Gebr, You are expected to do basic instruction and teaching the ropes of the software so the youngster so he can become better and more effective with the software so he can be more self-productive. You may have took BIM classes as electives or something at university or at the community college and then have years of project experience. The youngster isn't going to have all that. Just as it is for Xenakis. Xenakis's 8+ years of experience is more than just learning the software and it's layout. 

The kid will have to learn and develop a number of years of real world practice with the software before he can replace you. 

You already know how to use the software but let me teach you something you learn in the software development industry. You don't find 40+ year olds doing all the programming. You move up to directing/management level and the front end of the software design process. The kids do the programming but you who once was the grunt programming in the cubicle moves up and becomes the one making decisions. 

It is time for you to move up or move out.

RickB-Astoria

"He's in the UK. The protected classes and legal processes differ in some ways." 

Thanks for clarifying location. Point still basically stands. Good luck with any lawsuit over age discrimination. Again, it is the laws and the courts that defines and determines if a case is discrimination or not... even in the UK. The procedures are basically similar if not somewhat the same but using slightly different terminologies.... so what.

He's in the UK, he can just open up his own practice.

StephenW

He could, but he's a recent grad with a few months of experience, coming from a 40+ person firm where until recently he was exposed mostly to one phase of their work. He's a self-identified introvert who doesn't like to interact with others. He's in a somewhat down economy for architects in his location. The whole package doesn't really point to setting up shop as a sole proprietor being the best move at this moment in his career. He'd probably fare better and be more interested and comfortable in a job in another large-ish firm.

RickB-Astoria

I didn't read up on his past posts. I agree with you. It wouldn't be viable for him to start out on his own. It would be a rough road which I wouldn't recommend him doing unless he absolutely does what it takes. I'm an odd case but we know that. I wouldn't recommend him starting his own practice from this information. It seems he is also misleading in his comments about being an architect. 

My understanding of the UK system has the Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 stages to licensure. The title "Architect" is protected. The label of services as "architectural services" are somewhat protected but the effective practice of architecture is not... per se. I'm not a master/expert in it because I have not gone through the UK licensure process but I have looked at it before. Basically, there is a 5(+) years of education and 2 years of experience over the 3 part system. 

 This, although not first source but written a little more human friendly, says what it basically is: https://www.architecture.com/education-cpd-and-careers/how-to-become-an-architect

Yes, I looked at the ARB and RIBA site before so I'm sure the information is there and probably fully up to date. 

The question is has this fellow completed the 3 parts of the UK architect registration process?

RickB-Astoria

SHIT! I should have caught recognized the gebr name from that other thread where he self-proclaimed himself as an introvert. My bad. However, I don't think I have read all his posts or everything about the person. Thanks for bringing up the information in your reply above, StephenW. I'm sometimes am bad with names at first especially if I don't know the person.

Xenakis

Non Sequitur

I used to work for a large big name firm, and I did exactly what you did, they didn't like it - they wanted everyone to learn on their own, then I got laid off - 1 year w/o work? and its been a struggle ever since - sorry

Jan 25, 18 12:59 pm
Non Sequitur

I can understand that. Thanks for the follow-up. A large local firm in my market is 25 people... and I think there are only a handful of players at that scale. Everyone is expected to pitch in and contribute.

Xenakis
That being said, I teach everyone what they need to know about Revit - 3/4 of what my office does us front end - I'm strictly production - I know I will never be a designer here - not having aspirations is great - and I'm freed up to teach - but I do t really need to anymore, because everyone gets their Revit knowledge from the net and Revit kid - so, between that, outsourcing, and very bright kids, I've become a "archi-Dotard" redundancy - "back on the road again"
Jan 25, 18 1:28 pm
Featured Comment
christianpepper

Your coworker is not your competitor, end of discussion. 

Jan 25, 18 7:19 pm
arch76

All of life is a risk. On one hand, you have been handed a unique opportunity to demonstrate and teach your considerable skills, and get paid for it. On the other hand, you could be training your future consolidation candidate/replacement. I trend toward the more optimistic replies upthread, and I try to be a valuable contributor and giver to the cosmic architectural karma around me whenever I can, because I feel like I have taken so much from it. Its worked for me, so far. Hedge your risk, but realize you participate in, and ultimately make the reality around you. 

Jan 25, 18 10:12 pm
hkhk

After reading through these comments I'm going to suspend some unhelpful snark and say embrace the chance to develop a skill of teaching on the job. This will likely make you more marketable than a hoarded specific software knowledge ever will. Also, find a therapist because that the attitude you're showing in this thread, while possibly "acceptable" in the current office will make you virtually unemployable in many cases and could be really damaging if applied to other relationships. 


Feb 11, 18 11:17 pm

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