I have a project with one of those odd old NYC bathrooms where the tub is sideways and the tub is adjacent. See the attached photo 1 for an example (not my project, generic building plan)
I'd like to make the bathroom be a simple TUB / TOILET / SINK bathroom, see attached photo 2 for sample (again generic plan):
>>>
I know LL 58/87 is now gone.
I know that current NYC DOB BC 2014 Appendix P doesn't allow for bathroom reconfigures with 'expanded walls' (making the bathroom bigger) without full BC 2014 / ANSI / ADA compliance.
My question is, is there a way to reconfigure fixtures in the room if the walls don't move and the doors don't move?
The goal is to leave the walls where they are and door in existing location, but to change the tub location to a alcove (more common) and then put toilet / sink side by side.
Questions:
Anyone know a NYC DOB code that allows for this under 2014?
Is there an MOPD issue here? (Haven't found them helpful in the past)
Why would you want to? Are you just planning on renovating one bathroom, or are you renovating the entire stack? Have you considered the implications to the plumbing system, including impacts to the risers, soil stack, and/or access from the apartment below?
Seems like a lot of work for minimal benefit. I've been inside lots of NYC bathrooms with that corner tub arrangement, and whenever they've been renovated, they usually just upgrade the fixtures and finishes without changing any locations.
David, thanks for the thoughtful response, I'll try to address your points:
Why would you want to?
Client wishes for a cleaner, more modern alignment of the components. Thinks it would be better aesthetically, which I agree with.
If it's legal, I'd like to help her get this.
Are you just planning on renovating one bathroom, or are you renovating the entire stack? Have you considered the implications to the plumbing system, including impacts to the risers, soil stack, and/or access from the apartment below?
The goal is to revise the layout of one bathroom
Another apartment in the line has done this, but it was pre-2014 NYC BC, so it was likely (a) done on the sly, or (b) done under LL 58/87, which is no longer an option.
Floor is assumed (verifying with probe) to be slab with cinder fill and we are confirming with probes / plumber that the plumbing can be run code compliant in the floor sandwich / cinder fill.
For this discussion, I am operating under the assumption this can be done.
Seems like a lot of work for minimal benefit. I've been inside lots of NYC bathrooms with that corner tub arrangement, and whenever they've been renovated, they usually just upgrade the fixtures and finishes without changing any locations.
You are certainly correct that this might be solution, but I am trying to give the client what they would like legally, so I am trying to determine if the code allows for this.
if you google the NYC Rules for the equivalent Appendix P there are actually dwgs, don't ask me why that isn't in the code. but i do not think your scenario exists.
"1101.3 Special provisions for prior code buildings.
The provisions of this chapter shall apply to alterations, including minor alterations but excluding ordinary repairs, and changes of use or occupancy to prior code buildings in accordance with Sections 1101.3.1 through 1101.3.5.
Exception: The provisions of this chapter are not applicable to:
1. Ordinary repairs. (note: hmm)
2. R-3 occupancies in buildings with first occupancy on or before March 13, 1991.
3. R-3 occupancies in buildings with first occupancy after March 13, 1991, and originally constructed in a single structure with fewer than four dwelling or sleeping units."
So, nope to #2 and #3 (building is R-2 multiple dwellings), Ordinary repairs defined as per code:
"nor shall minor alterations or ordinary repairs include additions to, alterations of, or rearrangement, relocation, replacement, repair or removal of any portion of a standpipe or sprinkler system, water distribution system, house sewer, private sewer, or drainage system, including leaders, or any soil, waste or vent pipe, or any gas distribution system, or any other work affecting health or the fire or structural safety of the building.
(b) Minor alterations or ordinary repairs shall include the repair or replacement of any fixture, piping or faucets from the inlet side of a trap to any exposed stop valve."
So the code allows for basically replacement on existing roughing as an ordinary repair (which is good, as I installed my own bathroom sink recently ;)
>>>
So, Olaf, looks like I am out of luck on this.
>>>
Anyone else know a code way to make this legal?
Many thanks to both Olaf and David for their thoughts.
NYC Old Bathroom - Tub Lateral, change to 'normal' without ADA/MOPD?
I have a project with one of those odd old NYC bathrooms where the tub is sideways and the tub is adjacent. See the attached photo 1 for an example (not my project, generic building plan)
I'd like to make the bathroom be a simple TUB / TOILET / SINK bathroom, see attached photo 2 for sample (again generic plan):
>>>
I know LL 58/87 is now gone.
I know that current NYC DOB BC 2014 Appendix P doesn't allow for bathroom reconfigures with 'expanded walls' (making the bathroom bigger) without full BC 2014 / ANSI / ADA compliance.
My question is, is there a way to reconfigure fixtures in the room if the walls don't move and the doors don't move?
The goal is to leave the walls where they are and door in existing location, but to change the tub location to a alcove (more common) and then put toilet / sink side by side.
Questions:
Thanks for any help!
Why would you want to? Are you just planning on renovating one bathroom, or are you renovating the entire stack? Have you considered the implications to the plumbing system, including impacts to the risers, soil stack, and/or access from the apartment below?
Seems like a lot of work for minimal benefit. I've been inside lots of NYC bathrooms with that corner tub arrangement, and whenever they've been renovated, they usually just upgrade the fixtures and finishes without changing any locations.
read beginning of ch. 11 under pre 1991 and exemptions, the waiver requirements are all right there.
David, thanks for the thoughtful response, I'll try to address your points:
Thanks a ton for engaging, it's appreciated!
Olaf, I'll read now and post my thoughts, thanks!
if you google the NYC Rules for the equivalent Appendix P there are actually dwgs, don't ask me why that isn't in the code. but i do not think your scenario exists.
NYC BC 2014 Chapter 11:
http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/apps/pdf_viewer/viewer.html?file=2014CC_BC_Chapter_11_Accessibility.pdf§ion=conscode_2014
Quote:
"1101.3 Special provisions for prior code buildings.
The provisions of this chapter shall apply to alterations, including minor alterations but excluding ordinary repairs, and changes of use or occupancy to prior code buildings in accordance with Sections 1101.3.1 through 1101.3.5.
Exception: The provisions of this chapter are not applicable to:
1. Ordinary repairs. (note: hmm)
2. R-3 occupancies in buildings with first occupancy on or before March 13, 1991.
3. R-3 occupancies in buildings with first occupancy after March 13, 1991, and originally constructed in a single structure with fewer than four dwelling or sleeping units."
So, nope to #2 and #3 (building is R-2 multiple dwellings), Ordinary repairs defined as per code:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/t27_1.pdf
Applicable part of 27-126:
"nor shall minor alterations or ordinary repairs include additions to, alterations of, or rearrangement, relocation, replacement, repair or removal of any portion of a standpipe or sprinkler system, water distribution system, house sewer, private sewer, or drainage system, including leaders, or any soil, waste or vent pipe, or any gas distribution system, or any other work affecting health or the fire or structural safety of the building.
(b) Minor alterations or ordinary repairs shall include the repair or replacement of any fixture, piping or faucets from the inlet side of a trap to any exposed stop valve."
So the code allows for basically replacement on existing roughing as an ordinary repair (which is good, as I installed my own bathroom sink recently ;)
>>>
So, Olaf, looks like I am out of luck on this.
>>>
Anyone else know a code way to make this legal?
Many thanks to both Olaf and David for their thoughts.
Yeah, Olaf, Appendix B doesn't help me either :(
http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/apps/pdf_viewer/viewer.html?file=2014CC_BC_Appendix_P_R-2_Occupancy_Toilet_Requirements.pdf§ion=conscode_2014
Thanks for the thought!
sorry I threw you off with the 1991, its higher up in that same section. these are not thoughts, but anymore info I will have to bill you.
the link i was thinking of was rcny 1101-01
Olaf, that is INCREDIBLY helpful. Thanks for the heads up, GREATLY appreciated ;)
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