i'm fairly certain england is not going to pay greece's debt or bring in more refugees as part of this deal. i don't see what good comes from this. there isn't anything that suggests poverty will be reduced for anyone.
the markets reacted negatively, and it's going to be harder for england to establish trade deals with other european countries. probably not that horrible, but still it seems to me there are down sides, and no upside to the exit.
now if you're right, and there is a humanitarian element to this where england is going to fix all of the EU's problems, then great. more power to them.
as i said above, i don't see the up-side to england leaving the EU.
the koch brothers are against government regulation because the government prevents them from doing things that destroy the environment and other people's property, and governments make them pay taxes. what you refer to as analysis is pretty much just saying koch industries doesn't like regulation, and the EU is a regulatory institution.
wow, it seems this carto thingie is calling for even more neoliberalism and the complete abolition of any welfare state. is there any emoticon here with rolling eyes?
Since I'm sure you guys have read the article I posted, I'm wondering which part of the article you think is in some way off-base or incorrect. Or are you just satisfied with shooting the messenger? Are you that incurious?
what in the article is useful eke? koch industries doesn't like government regulation. i think it's important to manage resources, such as fishing rights. there you go.
Jun 25, 16 2:26 pm ·
·
This might work:
Jun 25, 16 2:26 pm ·
·
Since I'm sure you guys have read the article I posted, I'm wondering which part of the article you think is in some way off-base or incorrect. Or are you just satisfied with shooting the messenger? Are you that incurious?
You always shoot the messenger because you never get the opportunity to shoot the ideal target. That is why the ideal targets sends messengers. The ideal targets are never around to be shot.
I'm a bit prettier, Rick! not by a lot but still....
EKE, i wouldn't say that it would be calling for less welfare and curtkram wouldn't have noted the dergulation if we hadn't read. these are points made within the article.
but all this proves a point: there is a very diverse pool of opinions and ideologies - ranging from the extreme right to the extreme left, from the fiscally very liberal to the very marxist- who all find their own reasons for Brexit. So it is misrepresentative to try to portray the huge percentage of the populace who chose Brexit as belonging to the rightwing factions.
aside,there is more than something that reminds me of the Arab Spring anti-Mubarak revolts in Egypt (the opportunistic convergence of secular opposition groups with the Moslim brotherhood (a religious right wing faction) and how that played out in the media.
Curt, is it not useful to read thoughtful material on all sides of a debate, particularly well-reasoned writing that challenges our worldview?
From the posted article:
"Moreover, the economic benefits of intra-European trade have been undermined by overregulation. As centralization of decisionmaking in Brussels increased, Western European growth has declined (see Figure 1). Today, much of Europe is not growing at all. Some of Europe’s woes have nothing to do with the EU and are connected to changing demographics—low birth rates and an aging population. Yet Europe has also suffered from a number of self-inflicted wounds that go beyond overregulation.
The CAP, for example, has resulted in mountains of butter and lakes of milk. Those were later destroyed or dumped in Third World markets, where they undermined local producers.16Accompanying the CAP was the Common Fisheries Policy that, instead of preserving Europe’s fish stocks through a quota system, nearly wiped them out. One Dutch study found that to maintain their quotas fishermen tipped “two to four tons of dead fish” overboard for every ton of fish headed for consumption.17
The Structural and Cohesion Funds (SCF), a system of transfer payments that used money from taxpayers in rich countries to try to spur growth and employment in Europe’s underdeveloped south, became a legendary boondoggle of financial misallocation and corruption.18 The European Court of Auditors has refused to sign off on the EU budget for 20 years in a row—citing irregularities.19"
if you want to understand how fishing regulations work and why they're in place, including CAP's recent discard policy, then study fishing regulations.
all this does is cherry pick a piece of that legislation and present it in a deceptive and out-of-context manner to serve koch industry's desire to get people like you to believe that less regulation is better
if england chooses to no longer abide by the EU's fishing regulations as part of this exit, then they will still have to create their own regulations or they will face destruction of the fishing environment that will cause far more harm in the long run. there isn't going to be much change to the average british citizen because of this. there will still be government regulation, despite the koch brother's lunacy.
your quote from the article essentially points out why i think there isn't anything particularly good with britian leaving the EU, and why your article has no useful information in it. i believe that if you had any sense, you would not turn to the koch brothers when trying to thoughtfully understand all sides of a debate. they aren't honest people, and they aren't going to present you with honest information.
total random aside, but i grew up and worked with and for crazy Christians (radical beyond fundamentalism often, at one church camp the counselor had a guy pretend to come in and to scare us straight as if he was going to kill us in a ski mask, etc...wtf right...better get yourself straight with the lord, that was the point, I just scratched my head and thought what if one of us had shot the guy out of defense?)
This is back in the mid 90's I think. One guy would get these very end time like publications, that included shit like Acid Rain is natural and not real, the Liberals are telling lies about global warming etc...the usual.
one day sitting there waiting for orders I decided to read the one with the European map. It basically stated a One World government was a sign of the end times and the leader of the EU may be the anti-christ, etc....A one world currency would indicate the begining of the end times.
then when you get to end times I'm reminded of the prophecies about Damascus etc...and the logic of these early childhood engrained end time prophecies naturally play out in my head.
If the one world government is dismantled does that mean the end times are over? If this is the case, doesn't that mean that the 1000 year peace or whatever that prophecy was will be coming soon for Syria? (I hope so and what I learned watching CNN on a treadmill, about 6 million displaced Syrians - US took 10,000)
Last but not least, the whole time this end time shit was going around back in the day (80's), where Gorbachav was predicted to be the anti-christ and the Soviet Union seen as the one world government, were they all wrong, was it actually George H.W. at the anti-christ, or bet yet was it Reagan? (tear down this wall). The book of Revelations was also considered at one point to be removed from the bible for all the reasons above...
the Tower of Babel story was to slow down a one world, no? humanity getting too close to God? A unified humanity is better than a conflicting humanity?
_____________from EKE's article/qoute above
Moreover, the economic benefits of intra-European trade have been undermined by overregulation. As centralization of decisionmaking in Brussels increased, Western European growth has declined (see Figure 1).
(The amount of Scientific Progress in each World War and the above actually suggests otherwise. Did God get the Babel Parable wrong?)
Crazy two days, apparently White English who voted Leave now think its okay to be openly racist in public. Absolutely disgusting behaviour happening right now.
archiwut what type of stuff is going down? damnit curt I knew it was the pope although i heard it may also be Oprah......Chatter I just started reading David Graeber, you sound a bit like him, you read his work?
Basically the whole "Brexit" brigade are now regretting their decision. The promises were all lies, the "We'll have 350M to use on the NHS" was all a lie and people are now openly racist .... Just look on the BBC website.
So 52% of the voters were only doing it as a joke?
So, there wasn't a whole lot of Remain propoganda and scaremongering before and leading up to the vote that would have convinced those with doubt to vote Remain?
Much of the UK media is going hysterical over the issue. The Indendent, for instance, has turned into a ridiculously hysterical propaganda vehicle for Remain (and it used to be a better serious paper until they all started wanking off to porn and writing about porn all the time). The BBC has also been criticized for a bias towards the Remail position.
I would not much too much stock in what much of the media is propagating. It seems like everyone has a stake in this and this is overriding Let us keep in mind that 52% of the voters voted for Leave. This was a democratic referendum open to all British citizens; not a referendum confined to right wing circles.
nothing funnier than the generally liberal left media trying to make sense of this seasons politics, trying to struggle with a narrative they can not control. starting to dig David Graeber's "Utopia of Rules" book. .....the above statement is not supporting any position, rather a mockery of the media and their bias ways.
Chatter of Cloud, its more complicated than 52% of people voted to Leave. N.Ireland, Scotland and London voted in, it was only Walsh and the rest of England wanted out.
I find it amazing that most on this site are probably educated to university standards and fail to see /grasp/ understand what happened,
Most don't know what the EU is. Then get so blindsided by the arguments thrown that fail to see the core issues.
The UK has done nothing in the EU but to defend its own interests. The Brexit started in 2011 when the UK used its Veto power and 27 other countries said enough is enough.
Europe ( including me ) will NEVER be led by the UK. THAT is the issue the UK has with the EU.
The UK wants to preach about democracy, when the PM is NOT directly elected, House of Lords, etc ...
You NEVER paid 350m in fact you are the THIRD largest contributor, all tho you come ou as number 9 per capita, paying less then even Portugal ( per capita ) (official Numbers)
People voted out of frustration at salary stagnation, lack of opportunity etc. Sadly they used the WRONG venue to vent their frustration.
Yes the EU needs reform, but NOT any that has been mentioned so far.
But here's a consequence of the vote. I am an employer, ( Germany ) I started to expand to the UK about a year ago. English company etc., well, guess what. I'm moving my operations to France and Norway. In fact I am packing the last of the equipment in the UK.
Now you're all FREE... of me and my jobs and taxes. I do wish you GOOD LUCK getting a better deal ;) ( OVER MY DEAD BODY )
I do wish you all the best, you know not what you have done. The world will not forget or forgive. 2 Trillion wiped out so far. THAT has repercussions.
Yes the EU needs reform, but NOT any that has been mentioned so far.
Not true. This has been mentioned here.
And further on that:
"More broadly, do you agree that our approach to this is largely a tactical question, and that leftists on different sides of the debate have more in common with one another than differences? And strategically, how do we best respond to the result, whatever it is?
No — I think this is a strategic question, not a tactical one. It is not simply a question of individual nation-states leaving the EU, but one of destroying it, as one of the main institutional supports of the neoliberal capitalist order.
The problem with the “another Europe is possible” arguments, and with Yanis Varoufakis’s in particular, is that they outline brilliantly what is structurally wrong with the EU, but then, with a complete lack of logic or coherence, claim that we have to reform it.
At the root of this, I think, is a very deep pessimism about the prospects for socialism, and a belief that we have to restore capitalism to health before we can even think about moving beyond it.
The problem is that capitalism isn’t going to be restored to health — at least not to the kind of health it enjoyed in the West during the postwar boom, when most of the great social-democratic governments were enacted.
As is quite often the case, the reformist argument is actually more utopian than the revolutionary one." The Socialist Case for Leave
Another jacobin article or interview
"After all, the rise of the far right in France, Greece, Hungary, and elsewhere is hardly unconnected to the politics of the pro-EU center which simultaneously work to progressively erode parliamentary democracy while also perpetuating moral panic about migrants, national security, and Islam, upon which the far right feasts.
Fortress Europe permits a relative free movement of labor within it, but has now signed a pact with Turkey, sealed with Kurdish blood, to illegally push back refugees. It is not unforeseeable that in some circumstances one would have to align in practice with the centrist political forces doing all this, but doing so now seems perverse.
More importantly, Varoufakis should have learned his lesson: Syriza went into office thinking it would find all sorts of beneficial alliances with “other democrats” across Europe, to defend Greek national sovereignty and hold back the austerity juggernaut." Brexit and the Left
very well written, yet most of it is very narrow in perception.
the problem was exacerbated by the austerity measures, wrong if you ask me, but there you are. On the other hand how do you deal with a problem like Greece that not only cooked the books but were having a good time on our penny? Retiring at 50 with a higher pension then Germany?
True the ramming of austerity across Europe was not the best, it lead to this, on the other hand there are Airports and bridges to nowhere just to get funds. Austerity has its place, sadly NOT after a crises.
My point being, it was not the EU that was to blame, but the local Governments that did not work in favor of the people they were supposed to serve.
Logic dictates that when you ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer. The UK was free to control 3 /5 of its immigration from non EU countries, all the tools and laws at its disposal, yet nothing was done and they blamed the Poles.
The London benchmark FTSE 100 stick exchange index was at 6,360.06 today. It has more than made up for the Brexit decline. The benchmark was at 6,338.10 on Thursday June 23, before the vote.
Brexit
jla-x
Our constitutional protections that favor Liberty over security
Our constitution makes us less vulnerable to tyranny (in theory anyway)
This is true and same was in the case of Britain until they joined EU.
p.s GB does not have a constitution.
-------------
Watch this video and you will see how important it the Brexit is / was.
EU is not just undemocratic but rather antidemocratic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8
p.s. the elitist swines are demanding a new referendum...
i'm fairly certain england is not going to pay greece's debt or bring in more refugees as part of this deal. i don't see what good comes from this. there isn't anything that suggests poverty will be reduced for anyone.
the markets reacted negatively, and it's going to be harder for england to establish trade deals with other european countries. probably not that horrible, but still it seems to me there are down sides, and no upside to the exit.
now if you're right, and there is a humanitarian element to this where england is going to fix all of the EU's problems, then great. more power to them.
An excellent, detailed analysis of the EU:
http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/european-union-critical-assessment#cite-1
the cato institute was founded by and is run by and for the koch brothers.
if you want more democracy and less moneyed interest in politics, i wouldn't think you would turn to the cato institute.
What part of the analysis do you disagree with, Curt?
as i said above, i don't see the up-side to england leaving the EU.
the koch brothers are against government regulation because the government prevents them from doing things that destroy the environment and other people's property, and governments make them pay taxes. what you refer to as analysis is pretty much just saying koch industries doesn't like regulation, and the EU is a regulatory institution.
wow, it seems this carto thingie is calling for even more neoliberalism and the complete abolition of any welfare state. is there any emoticon here with rolling eyes?
Since I'm sure you guys have read the article I posted, I'm wondering which part of the article you think is in some way off-base or incorrect. Or are you just satisfied with shooting the messenger? Are you that incurious?
what in the article is useful eke? koch industries doesn't like government regulation. i think it's important to manage resources, such as fishing rights. there you go.
This might work:
Since I'm sure you guys have read the article I posted, I'm wondering which part of the article you think is in some way off-base or incorrect. Or are you just satisfied with shooting the messenger? Are you that incurious?
You always shoot the messenger because you never get the opportunity to shoot the ideal target. That is why the ideal targets sends messengers. The ideal targets are never around to be shot.
I'm a bit prettier, Rick! not by a lot but still....
EKE, i wouldn't say that it would be calling for less welfare and curtkram wouldn't have noted the dergulation if we hadn't read. these are points made within the article.
but all this proves a point: there is a very diverse pool of opinions and ideologies - ranging from the extreme right to the extreme left, from the fiscally very liberal to the very marxist- who all find their own reasons for Brexit. So it is misrepresentative to try to portray the huge percentage of the populace who chose Brexit as belonging to the rightwing factions.
aside,there is more than something that reminds me of the Arab Spring anti-Mubarak revolts in Egypt (the opportunistic convergence of secular opposition groups with the Moslim brotherhood (a religious right wing faction) and how that played out in the media.
Curt, is it not useful to read thoughtful material on all sides of a debate, particularly well-reasoned writing that challenges our worldview?
From the posted article:
"Moreover, the economic benefits of intra-European trade have been undermined by overregulation. As centralization of decisionmaking in Brussels increased, Western European growth has declined (see Figure 1). Today, much of Europe is not growing at all. Some of Europe’s woes have nothing to do with the EU and are connected to changing demographics—low birth rates and an aging population. Yet Europe has also suffered from a number of self-inflicted wounds that go beyond overregulation.
The CAP, for example, has resulted in mountains of butter and lakes of milk. Those were later destroyed or dumped in Third World markets, where they undermined local producers.16 Accompanying the CAP was the Common Fisheries Policy that, instead of preserving Europe’s fish stocks through a quota system, nearly wiped them out. One Dutch study found that to maintain their quotas fishermen tipped “two to four tons of dead fish” overboard for every ton of fish headed for consumption.17
The Structural and Cohesion Funds (SCF), a system of transfer payments that used money from taxpayers in rich countries to try to spur growth and employment in Europe’s underdeveloped south, became a legendary boondoggle of financial misallocation and corruption.18 The European Court of Auditors has refused to sign off on the EU budget for 20 years in a row—citing irregularities.19"
if you want to understand how fishing regulations work and why they're in place, including CAP's recent discard policy, then study fishing regulations.
all this does is cherry pick a piece of that legislation and present it in a deceptive and out-of-context manner to serve koch industry's desire to get people like you to believe that less regulation is better
if england chooses to no longer abide by the EU's fishing regulations as part of this exit, then they will still have to create their own regulations or they will face destruction of the fishing environment that will cause far more harm in the long run. there isn't going to be much change to the average british citizen because of this. there will still be government regulation, despite the koch brother's lunacy.
your quote from the article essentially points out why i think there isn't anything particularly good with britian leaving the EU, and why your article has no useful information in it. i believe that if you had any sense, you would not turn to the koch brothers when trying to thoughtfully understand all sides of a debate. they aren't honest people, and they aren't going to present you with honest information.
total random aside, but i grew up and worked with and for crazy Christians (radical beyond fundamentalism often, at one church camp the counselor had a guy pretend to come in and to scare us straight as if he was going to kill us in a ski mask, etc...wtf right...better get yourself straight with the lord, that was the point, I just scratched my head and thought what if one of us had shot the guy out of defense?)
This is back in the mid 90's I think. One guy would get these very end time like publications, that included shit like Acid Rain is natural and not real, the Liberals are telling lies about global warming etc...the usual.
one day sitting there waiting for orders I decided to read the one with the European map. It basically stated a One World government was a sign of the end times and the leader of the EU may be the anti-christ, etc....A one world currency would indicate the begining of the end times.
then when you get to end times I'm reminded of the prophecies about Damascus etc...and the logic of these early childhood engrained end time prophecies naturally play out in my head.
If the one world government is dismantled does that mean the end times are over? If this is the case, doesn't that mean that the 1000 year peace or whatever that prophecy was will be coming soon for Syria? (I hope so and what I learned watching CNN on a treadmill, about 6 million displaced Syrians - US took 10,000)
Last but not least, the whole time this end time shit was going around back in the day (80's), where Gorbachav was predicted to be the anti-christ and the Soviet Union seen as the one world government, were they all wrong, was it actually George H.W. at the anti-christ, or bet yet was it Reagan? (tear down this wall). The book of Revelations was also considered at one point to be removed from the bible for all the reasons above...
the Tower of Babel story was to slow down a one world, no? humanity getting too close to God? A unified humanity is better than a conflicting humanity?
_____________from EKE's article/qoute above
Moreover, the economic benefits of intra-European trade have been undermined by overregulation. As centralization of decisionmaking in Brussels increased, Western European growth has declined (see Figure 1).
(The amount of Scientific Progress in each World War and the above actually suggests otherwise. Did God get the Babel Parable wrong?)
off topic, but the pope is the antichrist. it was in malachy's prophecy.
Crazy two days, apparently White English who voted Leave now think its okay to be openly racist in public. Absolutely disgusting behaviour happening right now.
https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/very-serious-italians-want-all-pizza-makers-to-be-licensed
Mmmmm....regulated beurocratic pizza
archiwut what type of stuff is going down? damnit curt I knew it was the pope although i heard it may also be Oprah......Chatter I just started reading David Graeber, you sound a bit like him, you read his work?
Actually, fuck the UK, Europe is better without the snooty shits.
Basically the whole "Brexit" brigade are now regretting their decision. The promises were all lies, the "We'll have 350M to use on the NHS" was all a lie and people are now openly racist .... Just look on the BBC website.
So 52% of the voters were only doing it as a joke?
So, there wasn't a whole lot of Remain propoganda and scaremongering before and leading up to the vote that would have convinced those with doubt to vote Remain?
Much of the UK media is going hysterical over the issue. The Indendent, for instance, has turned into a ridiculously hysterical propaganda vehicle for Remain (and it used to be a better serious paper until they all started wanking off to porn and writing about porn all the time). The BBC has also been criticized for a bias towards the Remail position.
I would not much too much stock in what much of the media is propagating. It seems like everyone has a stake in this and this is overriding Let us keep in mind that 52% of the voters voted for Leave. This was a democratic referendum open to all British citizens; not a referendum confined to right wing circles.
Democracy with do-overs isn't really democracy.
nothing funnier than the generally liberal left media trying to make sense of this seasons politics, trying to struggle with a narrative they can not control. starting to dig David Graeber's "Utopia of Rules" book. .....the above statement is not supporting any position, rather a mockery of the media and their bias ways.
Chatter of Cloud, its more complicated than 52% of people voted to Leave. N.Ireland, Scotland and London voted in, it was only Walsh and the rest of England wanted out.
I find it amazing that most on this site are probably educated to university standards and fail to see /grasp/ understand what happened,
Most don't know what the EU is. Then get so blindsided by the arguments thrown that fail to see the core issues.
The UK has done nothing in the EU but to defend its own interests. The Brexit started in 2011 when the UK used its Veto power and 27 other countries said enough is enough.
Europe ( including me ) will NEVER be led by the UK. THAT is the issue the UK has with the EU.
The UK wants to preach about democracy, when the PM is NOT directly elected, House of Lords, etc ...
You NEVER paid 350m in fact you are the THIRD largest contributor, all tho you come ou as number 9 per capita, paying less then even Portugal ( per capita ) (official Numbers)
People voted out of frustration at salary stagnation, lack of opportunity etc. Sadly they used the WRONG venue to vent their frustration.
Yes the EU needs reform, but NOT any that has been mentioned so far.
But here's a consequence of the vote. I am an employer, ( Germany ) I started to expand to the UK about a year ago. English company etc., well, guess what. I'm moving my operations to France and Norway. In fact I am packing the last of the equipment in the UK.
Now you're all FREE... of me and my jobs and taxes. I do wish you GOOD LUCK getting a better deal ;) ( OVER MY DEAD BODY )
I do wish you all the best, you know not what you have done. The world will not forget or forgive. 2 Trillion wiped out so far. THAT has repercussions.
Yes the EU needs reform, but NOT any that has been mentioned so far.
Not true. This has been mentioned here.
And further on that:
"More broadly, do you agree that our approach to this is largely a tactical question, and that leftists on different sides of the debate have more in common with one another than differences? And strategically, how do we best respond to the result, whatever it is?
No — I think this is a strategic question, not a tactical one. It is not simply a question of individual nation-states leaving the EU, but one of destroying it, as one of the main institutional supports of the neoliberal capitalist order.
The problem with the “another Europe is possible” arguments, and with Yanis Varoufakis’s in particular, is that they outline brilliantly what is structurally wrong with the EU, but then, with a complete lack of logic or coherence, claim that we have to reform it.
At the root of this, I think, is a very deep pessimism about the prospects for socialism, and a belief that we have to restore capitalism to health before we can even think about moving beyond it.
The problem is that capitalism isn’t going to be restored to health — at least not to the kind of health it enjoyed in the West during the postwar boom, when most of the great social-democratic governments were enacted.
As is quite often the case, the reformist argument is actually more utopian than the revolutionary one." The Socialist Case for Leave
Another jacobin article or interview
"After all, the rise of the far right in France, Greece, Hungary, and elsewhere is hardly unconnected to the politics of the pro-EU center which simultaneously work to progressively erode parliamentary democracy while also perpetuating moral panic about migrants, national security, and Islam, upon which the far right feasts.
Fortress Europe permits a relative free movement of labor within it, but has now signed a pact with Turkey, sealed with Kurdish blood, to illegally push back refugees. It is not unforeseeable that in some circumstances one would have to align in practice with the centrist political forces doing all this, but doing so now seems perverse.
More importantly, Varoufakis should have learned his lesson: Syriza went into office thinking it would find all sorts of beneficial alliances with “other democrats” across Europe, to defend Greek national sovereignty and hold back the austerity juggernaut." Brexit and the Left
@chatter of clouds I did miss that.
very well written, yet most of it is very narrow in perception.
the problem was exacerbated by the austerity measures, wrong if you ask me, but there you are. On the other hand how do you deal with a problem like Greece that not only cooked the books but were having a good time on our penny? Retiring at 50 with a higher pension then Germany?
True the ramming of austerity across Europe was not the best, it lead to this, on the other hand there are Airports and bridges to nowhere just to get funds. Austerity has its place, sadly NOT after a crises.
My point being, it was not the EU that was to blame, but the local Governments that did not work in favor of the people they were supposed to serve.
Logic dictates that when you ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer. The UK was free to control 3 /5 of its immigration from non EU countries, all the tools and laws at its disposal, yet nothing was done and they blamed the Poles.
so you see from Europe, this looks different.
NYC would like to thank the Brits on advance. All that London investment real estate money will be coming our way soon! just a prediction.
The London benchmark FTSE 100 stick exchange index was at 6,360.06 today. It has more than made up for the Brexit decline. The benchmark was at 6,338.10 on Thursday June 23, before the vote.
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