"I'm not mentioning any names, but if you say the right things here, there are those who will magically appear on the thread to report the guy for you. They'd probably even go out of their way to report him back in his home country for good measure."
I'm totally up for this if you haven't got any other volunteers. All I need is a name and address. I'll even report them to ICE too if you think that will help.
Your garage example isn't really helping your point. Zoning codes are a HSW issue. It may not appear as dangerous as a man brandishing a gun, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't there.
Regardless of the motivation behind the person reporting it, a rule was broken. Those with the authority are the best positioned to either let it go, or to punish the person. Trying to make someone feel guilty for pointing out that a rule was broken isn't really conducive to a civilized society. If the guy gets away with the forged transcript thing, what is there to say he won't forge something else with more impact on someone's HSW ... "those occupant loads aren't really working out with the clear widths in the design? Aw, just fudge the numbers a little bit so we can get the permit, no one's going to get hurt." Where does one draw the line? For me*, do whatever keeps your conscience clear and makes you feel good about it.
*In reality, I couldn't care less whether the OP reports the guy or lets it go; I don't know either of the people involved. I'd probably let it go myself. I'm just playing devil's advocate in order to help pass the time on a slow Friday.
Yeah, my garage example was weak. I was trying to make the point that the law should be used to protect people, not as a weapon, or a means of gaining advantage.
The OP never suggested that the person was incompetent, and there's no reason to think that they'd cut corners on the job. You never fudged a resume even a little?
Gw. Way to read into things. Checking a box saying that one of your courses was the equivalent of a pro practice class in the US (or something like that) hardly qualifies the man as a "lying, cheating asshole."
OP, please don't take advice from Gwharton - look through his past posts, and I'm sure that you'll want to stay as far away from the fucker as the rest of us do.
Actually, anon, falsifying credentials, particularly for legal registration purposes, DOES qualify somebody as a "lying, cheating asshole." It also probably qualifies as perjury too, depending on the jurisdiction.
I was trying to make the point that the law should be used to protect people, not as a weapon, or a means of gaining advantage.
Regardless of the OP's motivation, reporting the guy might actually be in the public's best interest. If not, let's all start writing letters to the OBAE on behalf of Balkins who really wants to be an architect but doesn't have the proper education to get there.
Jun 17, 16 6:00 pm ·
·
Those who are suggesting not reporting this guy, I have two questions. Are you guys really licensed/registered architects? Are you really truly suggesting not reporting anything that isn't outright resulting in people actually getting injured or killed?
"Those who are suggesting not reporting this guy, I have two questions. Are you guys really licensed/registered architects? Are you really truly suggesting not reporting anything that isn't outright resulting in people actually getting injured or killed?"
the exact questions Balkins has NEVER asked himself before reporting someone, or designing something for that matter.
Originally, I was going to make the point to not throw RB under the bus when he doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
But then he gets on a high horse, without answering anything, and stirs the pot, and I just think - Fuck, why are you still here!?
This used to be a nice place.
Jun 17, 16 8:13 pm ·
·
Bench,
It's not a high horse thing when you actually think about it.
Why should anyone bother with meeting the licensing requirements if it is okay for someone, through fraudulent means, get licensed and continue to practice without ever meeting the requirements of licensure or receiving disciplinary action over criminal fraud?
It wasn't that long ago that it was mentioned that an architect is required to report to the licensing authorities any violations of the licensing laws that they become aware of.
Jun 17, 16 9:18 pm ·
·
I'm trying to understand how a licensed/registered architect can honestly with a straight face suggest not reporting someone based on the reasons given. I can understand if there is not sufficient evidence which I think there is that possibility.
This was not suggested by those who suggest not reporting.
What State is he applying to practice in? Your application for licensure needs to be notarized. If he forged the document and its notarized, he committed fraud and therefore the matter goes beyond the State Board.
I read an article about nurses who submitted forged college transcripts in California and the consequences of their action outweighs what they gained from deceit.
I am not sure of the extent of forgery that he committed on forging his college transcript. I am not going to ask him. When he accidentally admitted that he forged his college transcript, there was an awkward silence between the group,
Jun 17, 16 10:09 pm ·
·
Thank You Bulgar,
A sensible reason to not report. Build a case with evidence before reporting. Absolutely makes sense.
If the OP isn't an architect, he's got no legal obligation to report this. He can be a law abiding citizen and not rat anyone out. If he is an architect AND there's any evidence then he's supposed to report it - but nothing's been said that indicates that there is any evidence.
True. Verbal evidence can be evidence to support a case but it has to be recorded. If it is not recorded, then it is hearsay. I do agree with not reporting because there isn't tangible evidence such as a recording or written evidence. The evidence would be in the transcripts but if it was like 30 years ago, those evidence could be gone and lost in time because the licensing board disposed of stuff that old because they can't have every damn thing from 30+ years ago or longer stuffed in their office. Over time, this stuff tends to disappear.
Without evidence like the the transcripts to look at to see if it was altered, then it is relying on verbal admission which would have to be recorded. Preferably a video & audio recording so there is a face with the words being spoken.
Without that, it can be a problem. For all anyone knows, the guy could be pulling your leg, archtern2016.
I do agree with people suggesting not reporting for reason of lack of sufficient evidence.
I do NOT agree with reasons given by some who had suggested not reporting. There reasons are asinine. The law isn't to be ignored just because someone is trying to earn an income and earn income to support a family or self. If you apply it to one person, you have to apply it to every person.
When he accidentally admitted that he forged his college transcript, there was an awkward silence between the group
Architern, here's what I would do if I were truly concerned about the competence of the faker. (That's after doing an honest inventory of your true motivations.)
Talk to your co-workers who were there. Not just your best bud, but professionals who have a reputation for being considerate and responsible. Are they concerned? Do they think that action should be taken? If so, then go to the higher-ups in the office.
I'm worried that you know you're being a bit of a sneak, looking for validation on the internet, where, of course, random angry trolls are going to tell you to ruin the man's career without pausing to consider the real life consequences. This is far too serious a decision to make based on advice given on an anonymous forum.
Again, if you think that this is important, you have to do it in the light of day, with the support of your co-workers, and accept the responsibility for your actions. An anonymous tip would be cowardly.
Jun 18, 16 1:46 pm ·
·
anonitect,
The enforcement of law is NOT to consider the consequences on a persons life. If a person breaks the law, they should have considered that before they commit the 'crime' (or break the law). If you ignore the violation of the law for one person for these reasons, you will have to ignore the law for everyone else. What is the consequences of that kind of that kind of precedence?
I do agree with those who say to not report if the only evidence is an unrecorded verbal statement because they won't waste time to investigate a complaint unless there is evidence more than what maybe deemed as hear say.
And even they do not "have to" arrest someone if they feel like giving a break for a minor violation.
Jun 18, 16 3:32 pm ·
·
jla-x,
If what the OP said is true, this isn't just a minor violation. The consequences of letting a person who commits fraud to become license, remain licensed without disciplinary actions undermines architectural licensing completely and makes it unlawful to enforce under the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution because it creates an unequal protection and enforcement of the law.
It is against the law to not equally enforce the law to each person. The 14th Amendment requires that every person receive equal protection of the law implies that the law must be equally enforced.
What is so special about one person that they can commit a criminal act of forgery and criminal level fraud without facing disciplinary action when everyone else that does it faces severe fines and often prison sentences depending on the explicit severity of the crime.
You can't just be lenient so much for one person and throw the book at the next for the same kind and degree of violation. That's unlawful.
Please recognize that RickB-OR is not a member of the profession. He probably has a serious mental illness, and his opinion should not be taken seriously. If you doubt me, just wait, this thread will further devolve into him doing his cut-and-paste rant routine (while people who should know better than to egg him on keep pouring fuel on the fire) before you know it.
Really, this forum, especially with Rick involved, is not capable of providing guidance for such a serious matter. Speak to the co-workers who were there when the guy made his admission, or keep the information to yourself. I'd probably do the latter, unless I had serious concerns about his competence.
Have been 15 feet away when they overheard this conversation.
Maybe English is a 2nd language and this person used words that did not actually communicate what actually transpired.
OP might not be telling the whole truth.
Jun 18, 16 5:19 pm ·
·
Anonitect,
Here you are plagiarizing what I said earlier.
If you have nothing but an unrecorded verbal admissions, it isn't worth reporting because it can be contested as hear say without any serious effort to investigate. Especially if this was several decades ago that they don't have the records of his transcripts anymore.
If there is enough of a case with record of evidence of his admission, there maybe enough for them to have background check and independent verification with the institutions directly. They just aren't going to go through the effort unless there is sufficient evidence to dig into this.
Not reporting someone just because the person who commits a violation is just trying to have a career and earn money is fucking asinine and dangerously stupid. That line of thought that was suggested by others on this forum is blatantly irresponsible, stupid, and undermines the licensing laws legality so much that it HAS to be repealed. The suggestions given legitimizes and legalize people using fraud to become licensed.
I can care less about inconsequential padding of hours like a person who worked 7-hrs and 53 minutes doing construction documents and round it to 8 hrs. I can give a shit less about minute padding. It's another thing to outright commit fraud. What if the person had never had architectural schooling?
These are just minor padding of hours. This is serious and substantive.
Despite all that, if you don't have enough evidence for a case to be put forth, you don't report as it would be a waste of time.
Balkins, consider the reams of evidence against you. The theater, your businesses that you do not pay taxes on, the threats of physical violence in writing you've made to people on this forum. It wouldn't take much to get you into court for some kind of law suit or negligence charge. Sit your ass back down in your parents basement and chew on that.
Rick, out of curiosity, would you consider listing colleges that you "plan" to attend on your resume.... in a way that suggests enrollment as dishonest? How is that different?
Jun 18, 16 6:45 pm ·
·
LinkedIn and other such online digital profiles are NOT resumes. They should not be treated as such. They serve NO official capacity.
Is it really dishonest on a digital profile to list colleges you are planning to attend? If you decide at a later time to not attend, it would be appropriate to remove.
On an actual resume, you list only the colleges you attended. The one you submit to prospective employers with your cover letter and all.
Thanks Rick, I'll add PH.D. In Quantum Physics @ MIT
Jun 18, 16 7:27 pm ·
·
z1111,
On LinkedIn, I do not have any of the colleges I haven't attended or applied to listed. I had already removed them awhile back. I had already decided at that point in time that it isn't worth it to list because the time projections became more indeterminable. Earlier on, I had projected that I would enroll by a certain time and then removed them when I reached the point where I don't have any idea of when.
There maybe some old profiles on sites that I haven't edited or been to in probably years but I have to try to remember the account passwords and shit from a number of years ago.
Rick of course it is dishonest to list colleges you only plan to attend but have not yet applied to or been accepted to, on any type of profile. It would be different if you were already accepted - for instance people sometimes put info on their profiles regarding the grad school they're accepted to and planning to attend in the fall.
Jun 18, 16 9:19 pm ·
·
Sponty,
That's your opinion. Don't worry, it had been removed a long time ago.
It's not opinion - it's fact. Listing a school you haven't attended is a lie. It's like listing a job at a firm that you hope to work at someday.
Jun 18, 16 10:53 pm ·
·
Sponty,
You must be mistaken. I looked at my profile on the AIA. What profile are you looking at. I look at the profile in my AIA membership account. I don't see ANY college listed that I did not attend.
Can you provide me a link. I don't appreciate having to throw a $160+ out of pocket that I didn't need to spend, thank you very fucking much.... asshole.
I can care less about inconsequential padding of hours... I can give a shit less about minute padding...
Why do you, specifically, feel that your opinion has merit? Why do you feel, as an outside observer to the field, that you should care one way or another on this specific issue?
Forging your college transcript to get your license
"I'm not mentioning any names, but if you say the right things here, there are those who will magically appear on the thread to report the guy for you. They'd probably even go out of their way to report him back in his home country for good measure."
I'm totally up for this if you haven't got any other volunteers. All I need is a name and address. I'll even report them to ICE too if you think that will help.
Your garage example isn't really helping your point. Zoning codes are a HSW issue. It may not appear as dangerous as a man brandishing a gun, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't there.
Regardless of the motivation behind the person reporting it, a rule was broken. Those with the authority are the best positioned to either let it go, or to punish the person. Trying to make someone feel guilty for pointing out that a rule was broken isn't really conducive to a civilized society. If the guy gets away with the forged transcript thing, what is there to say he won't forge something else with more impact on someone's HSW ... "those occupant loads aren't really working out with the clear widths in the design? Aw, just fudge the numbers a little bit so we can get the permit, no one's going to get hurt." Where does one draw the line? For me*, do whatever keeps your conscience clear and makes you feel good about it.
*In reality, I couldn't care less whether the OP reports the guy or lets it go; I don't know either of the people involved. I'd probably let it go myself. I'm just playing devil's advocate in order to help pass the time on a slow Friday.
You're up for it because you're a horrible person, Gw, which you prove over and over again on this forum.
So funny, to take another human's potential ruin so lightly.
^without a crystal ball, this one human's potential ruin could be the salvation of countless other humans' lives.
That's right. I'm a "horrible person" because I think people shouldn't be lying, cheating assholes and am willing to do something about that.
Yeah, my garage example was weak. I was trying to make the point that the law should be used to protect people, not as a weapon, or a means of gaining advantage.
The OP never suggested that the person was incompetent, and there's no reason to think that they'd cut corners on the job. You never fudged a resume even a little?
Gw. Way to read into things. Checking a box saying that one of your courses was the equivalent of a pro practice class in the US (or something like that) hardly qualifies the man as a "lying, cheating asshole."
OP, please don't take advice from Gwharton - look through his past posts, and I'm sure that you'll want to stay as far away from the fucker as the rest of us do.
Might want to check out the Inspector Javert character in Les Miserables before you drown yourself in the Seine.
Actually, anon, falsifying credentials, particularly for legal registration purposes, DOES qualify somebody as a "lying, cheating asshole." It also probably qualifies as perjury too, depending on the jurisdiction.
I was trying to make the point that the law should be used to protect people, not as a weapon, or a means of gaining advantage.
Best line in this thread so far.
I was trying to make the point that the law should be used to protect people, not as a weapon, or a means of gaining advantage.
Regardless of the OP's motivation, reporting the guy might actually be in the public's best interest. If not, let's all start writing letters to the OBAE on behalf of Balkins who really wants to be an architect but doesn't have the proper education to get there.
Those who are suggesting not reporting this guy, I have two questions. Are you guys really licensed/registered architects? Are you really truly suggesting not reporting anything that isn't outright resulting in people actually getting injured or killed?
Volunteer, I tried to find a Hugh Jackman mic drop gif, but this will have to do instead.
Rick's here. My work here is done. Have a great weekend all.
[mic drop]
J'APPROVE!
"Those who are suggesting not reporting this guy, I have two questions. Are you guys really licensed/registered architects? Are you really truly suggesting not reporting anything that isn't outright resulting in people actually getting injured or killed?"
the exact questions Balkins has NEVER asked himself before reporting someone, or designing something for that matter.
Originally, I was going to make the point to not throw RB under the bus when he doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
But then he gets on a high horse, without answering anything, and stirs the pot, and I just think - Fuck, why are you still here!?
This used to be a nice place.
Bench,
It's not a high horse thing when you actually think about it.
Why should anyone bother with meeting the licensing requirements if it is okay for someone, through fraudulent means, get licensed and continue to practice without ever meeting the requirements of licensure or receiving disciplinary action over criminal fraud?
It wasn't that long ago that it was mentioned that an architect is required to report to the licensing authorities any violations of the licensing laws that they become aware of.
I'm trying to understand how a licensed/registered architect can honestly with a straight face suggest not reporting someone based on the reasons given. I can understand if there is not sufficient evidence which I think there is that possibility.
This was not suggested by those who suggest not reporting.
What State is he applying to practice in? Your application for licensure needs to be notarized. If he forged the document and its notarized, he committed fraud and therefore the matter goes beyond the State Board.
I would first verify whether or not he indeed forged his documents... Without proof, you could like an idiot regardless of your strong suspicions....
I read an article about nurses who submitted forged college transcripts in California and the consequences of their action outweighs what they gained from deceit.
http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/press_releases/2013/0527_rntranscript_doi.shtml
I am not sure of the extent of forgery that he committed on forging his college transcript. I am not going to ask him. When he accidentally admitted that he forged his college transcript, there was an awkward silence between the group,
Thank You Bulgar,
A sensible reason to not report. Build a case with evidence before reporting. Absolutely makes sense.
*********RickB-OR + BulgarBlogger rats met in heaven**********
Geez,
What happen to the notion of law abiding citizen?
If the OP isn't an architect, he's got no legal obligation to report this. He can be a law abiding citizen and not rat anyone out. If he is an architect AND there's any evidence then he's supposed to report it - but nothing's been said that indicates that there is any evidence.
.
It could have been 30 years ago for all We know.
@jla-x Have a snickers.
try it.
True. Verbal evidence can be evidence to support a case but it has to be recorded. If it is not recorded, then it is hearsay. I do agree with not reporting because there isn't tangible evidence such as a recording or written evidence. The evidence would be in the transcripts but if it was like 30 years ago, those evidence could be gone and lost in time because the licensing board disposed of stuff that old because they can't have every damn thing from 30+ years ago or longer stuffed in their office. Over time, this stuff tends to disappear.
Without evidence like the the transcripts to look at to see if it was altered, then it is relying on verbal admission which would have to be recorded. Preferably a video & audio recording so there is a face with the words being spoken.
Without that, it can be a problem. For all anyone knows, the guy could be pulling your leg, archtern2016.
I do agree with people suggesting not reporting for reason of lack of sufficient evidence.
I do NOT agree with reasons given by some who had suggested not reporting. There reasons are asinine. The law isn't to be ignored just because someone is trying to earn an income and earn income to support a family or self. If you apply it to one person, you have to apply it to every person.
When he accidentally admitted that he forged his college transcript, there was an awkward silence between the group
Architern, here's what I would do if I were truly concerned about the competence of the faker. (That's after doing an honest inventory of your true motivations.)
Talk to your co-workers who were there. Not just your best bud, but professionals who have a reputation for being considerate and responsible. Are they concerned? Do they think that action should be taken? If so, then go to the higher-ups in the office.
I'm worried that you know you're being a bit of a sneak, looking for validation on the internet, where, of course, random angry trolls are going to tell you to ruin the man's career without pausing to consider the real life consequences. This is far too serious a decision to make based on advice given on an anonymous forum.
Again, if you think that this is important, you have to do it in the light of day, with the support of your co-workers, and accept the responsibility for your actions. An anonymous tip would be cowardly.
anonitect,
The enforcement of law is NOT to consider the consequences on a persons life. If a person breaks the law, they should have considered that before they commit the 'crime' (or break the law). If you ignore the violation of the law for one person for these reasons, you will have to ignore the law for everyone else. What is the consequences of that kind of that kind of precedence?
I do agree with those who say to not report if the only evidence is an unrecorded verbal statement because they won't waste time to investigate a complaint unless there is evidence more than what maybe deemed as hear say.
^you are NOT the police.
And even they do not "have to" arrest someone if they feel like giving a break for a minor violation.
jla-x,
If what the OP said is true, this isn't just a minor violation. The consequences of letting a person who commits fraud to become license, remain licensed without disciplinary actions undermines architectural licensing completely and makes it unlawful to enforce under the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution because it creates an unequal protection and enforcement of the law.
It is against the law to not equally enforce the law to each person. The 14th Amendment requires that every person receive equal protection of the law implies that the law must be equally enforced.
What is so special about one person that they can commit a criminal act of forgery and criminal level fraud without facing disciplinary action when everyone else that does it faces severe fines and often prison sentences depending on the explicit severity of the crime.
You can't just be lenient so much for one person and throw the book at the next for the same kind and degree of violation. That's unlawful.
Architern,
Please recognize that RickB-OR is not a member of the profession. He probably has a serious mental illness, and his opinion should not be taken seriously. If you doubt me, just wait, this thread will further devolve into him doing his cut-and-paste rant routine (while people who should know better than to egg him on keep pouring fuel on the fire) before you know it.
Really, this forum, especially with Rick involved, is not capable of providing guidance for such a serious matter. Speak to the co-workers who were there when the guy made his admission, or keep the information to yourself. I'd probably do the latter, unless I had serious concerns about his competence.
OP is a first time poster.
OP is anonymous.
OP might be:
Jumping to a conclusion.
Have been 15 feet away when they overheard this conversation.
Maybe English is a 2nd language and this person used words that did not actually communicate what actually transpired.
OP might not be telling the whole truth.
Anonitect,
Here you are plagiarizing what I said earlier.
If you have nothing but an unrecorded verbal admissions, it isn't worth reporting because it can be contested as hear say without any serious effort to investigate. Especially if this was several decades ago that they don't have the records of his transcripts anymore.
If there is enough of a case with record of evidence of his admission, there maybe enough for them to have background check and independent verification with the institutions directly. They just aren't going to go through the effort unless there is sufficient evidence to dig into this.
Not reporting someone just because the person who commits a violation is just trying to have a career and earn money is fucking asinine and dangerously stupid. That line of thought that was suggested by others on this forum is blatantly irresponsible, stupid, and undermines the licensing laws legality so much that it HAS to be repealed. The suggestions given legitimizes and legalize people using fraud to become licensed.
I can care less about inconsequential padding of hours like a person who worked 7-hrs and 53 minutes doing construction documents and round it to 8 hrs. I can give a shit less about minute padding. It's another thing to outright commit fraud. What if the person had never had architectural schooling?
These are just minor padding of hours. This is serious and substantive.
Despite all that, if you don't have enough evidence for a case to be put forth, you don't report as it would be a waste of time.
Rick, out of curiosity, would you consider listing colleges that you "plan" to attend on your resume.... in a way that suggests enrollment as dishonest? How is that different?
LinkedIn and other such online digital profiles are NOT resumes. They should not be treated as such. They serve NO official capacity.
Is it really dishonest on a digital profile to list colleges you are planning to attend? If you decide at a later time to not attend, it would be appropriate to remove.
On an actual resume, you list only the colleges you attended. The one you submit to prospective employers with your cover letter and all.
Did you apply and were you accepted at those colleges?
Thanks Rick, I'll add PH.D. In Quantum Physics @ MIT
z1111,
On LinkedIn, I do not have any of the colleges I haven't attended or applied to listed. I had already removed them awhile back. I had already decided at that point in time that it isn't worth it to list because the time projections became more indeterminable. Earlier on, I had projected that I would enroll by a certain time and then removed them when I reached the point where I don't have any idea of when.
There maybe some old profiles on sites that I haven't edited or been to in probably years but I have to try to remember the account passwords and shit from a number of years ago.
Rick of course it is dishonest to list colleges you only plan to attend but have not yet applied to or been accepted to, on any type of profile. It would be different if you were already accepted - for instance people sometimes put info on their profiles regarding the grad school they're accepted to and planning to attend in the fall.
Sponty,
That's your opinion. Don't worry, it had been removed a long time ago.
It's still on your profile on the AIA site.
It's not opinion - it's fact. Listing a school you haven't attended is a lie. It's like listing a job at a firm that you hope to work at someday.
Sponty,
You must be mistaken. I looked at my profile on the AIA. What profile are you looking at. I look at the profile in my AIA membership account. I don't see ANY college listed that I did not attend.
Can you provide me a link. I don't appreciate having to throw a $160+ out of pocket that I didn't need to spend, thank you very fucking much.... asshole.
I can care less about inconsequential padding of hours...
I can give a shit less about minute padding...
Why do you, specifically, feel that your opinion has merit? Why do you feel, as an outside observer to the field, that you should care one way or another on this specific issue?
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