I know it is not viewed favorably to work for short periods of time at many different firms, but what do you do when its not working out? Stay and tough it out until you hit 18 or 24 months, or leave ASAP and look elsewhere?
Ultimately I want to find a firm that I click with and can work at for many years, but that can be tough to gauge just from interviews and talking to current employees. Promises are always made that can't be kept (maybe a function of the market/ the employers I am finding??) and it is tough to predict where the market is going next - making me nervous to leave.
I vacillate between being thankful I have a job at all (graduated in 2009 - not a good time to enter the market) and being frustrated that every firm is seemingly dysfunctional and either pays poorly, requires insane work hours, or does shitty design. Is it just a matter of picking which of those 3 is least objectionable and sticking with it?
How do the employers and firm owners out there respond to seeing someone with one or two jobs in a row shorter than 18 months on a resume?
curtkram, nothing so bourgeois as a corner office. We're talking basics like:
"We will get you the software you need to design and execute new and fresh projects."
"You will have significant control over consultants and project management."
"We are currently buying a new (modern) AV system for the conference rooms so you don't have to present on a 32" TV." (It's been 5 months - how long is too long to wait to follow through on this kind of stuff?)
I could go into more detail but also need to remain vague enough to be anonymous.
I would certainly like more money but that's not why I took the job. It was about design and experience. I am frustrated because I feel like I don't have the tools to design w/in the tight budgets and timeframes we have. As for experience, a couple large projects fell through so where the principal previously was looking at handing off some smaller projects to others to manage (me among them) that no longer seems to be in the cards.
archanonymous in architecture it's actually pretty much acceptable especially in NYC.
there was this architect that was doing really well when I moved to NYC. The word on the street was she had worked at 23 different places in 2 years, so not sure it matters much.
I switched to consulting fairly quickly as 1-2 years anywhere would drive me nuts. The longest employments I had were where I worked as a consultant in house and did my own thing - not on the side - but just did it.
If you have certain skills, and the employer has half a brain, they are more than willing to let you operate that way. It might take you 4 hours for something brilliant while it takes any other kid off the street 40, so some are wise and will to let you do that.
in theme with the Clash, are you feeling like this?
Was a red-flag to me, when I just got a cold resume sent to me. However the beauty of what we do is we can always omit mistakes and fill in with “Consulting”. If you begin to sense a problem just modify the resume…can be a problem in a small market though. I moved around a lot when I started and just explained it, if I sensed a problem in an interview…but those were rifle shot moves, different than broadcasting a resume.
What if you reached out to past coworkers? See where they are at and have a real talk abut whether or not it's a good place. Glass door is pretty good too with its reviews, some people are just grinding their axe but if there is a common theme in the complaints it's probably true
I can see how that would be a downer. There are stories about how some firms can be really bad at managing staff and business in general. There was one when I was looking that has good design, but dissolved during the recession and then reorganized later on with a lot less partners, and the namesake of the former firm. It seems like to me that if it faltered once, it will again.
I'm not sure how rapid fire would look on a resume though, although given our current economy it may be ok. I've been lucky enough that I've done at least 2 years at every stop, and tend to get what I ask for at my current office.
If you don't get promoted/more responsibilities or pay raise after 2 years its time to move, that's how I do it. Plus I can't ever do anything more than 2 years anyhow.
how about trying out to start your own firm. then you will understand the perspective of your bosses otherwise begin to have a deep sense of patience. architecture surely requires this attitude more than the will to be creative or even self worth to be honest.
Olaf, yeah except maybe a t-square in place of the guitar.
Carrera,
Definitely a possibility and since I'm just some paperwork away from my license, it will be both more realistic for me to fill in gaps with Consulting on the resume and in actual work.
Josh,
I don't think you know my real-life identity although a mutual friend of ours at Gensler does. Your post is eerily spot-on.
Its unfortunate because I love working with this principal and the projects are really compelling to me, but the tools are shit, the project budgets are exceedingly tight, the financials of the firm are not great, and the I passed on a big pay bump (if I had gone to another firm) to be able to work on these kinds of projects and with this particular principal while I am under 30 because I wont be able to afford to do it later.
I am trying to balance an understanding of the importance of patience and slow pace of architecture with what is best for my long-term development as an architect, which is never an easy task.
archanonymous, it kind of sounds to me like it's not that bad where you're at. there's always the concern that you're jumping out of the fry pan and into the fire right?
especially if a couple large projects fell through, then that's a lot of money coming in to the office that they may have planned on using for the upgrades you were hoping for. it could be that what they wanted to do is just put on hold a little longer than everyone wants.
the bad offices are the ones where people lie and deceive to try to get you in line with their expectations. it could be that the promises they made are an example of this, in which case it's probably best to jump ship. if they are trying to be sincere and just had a setback though, that might be something to take into consideration.
if the principals are still accessible and you can speak frankly with them, you can probably ask them what their project outlook looks like to see if they have a schedule in mind for future upgrades, and let them know that if someone is going to be fucking around on the internet all day, it's better if they're doing that while they hand off the small projects to you so you can be spending your time getting useful experience.
i don't think people should be so quick to say 'start your own business.' that leads to unqualified people running businesses, which ultimately causes most problems i've seen in the industry. people who run businesses should be the people who are most qualified to do so.
There is something to be said about staying and there is something to be said about leaving. The technology and the firm's inability to estimate the resources required to complete the project or the timeline on the other hand, happens all over the place. No environment will be perfect. Sometime's the unrealistic schedule comes from the boss not properly negotiating with the client, sometimes it comes from the developer, or sometimes it has everything to do with who in the firm is driving the bus and not doing a good job and keeping things on track.
You've got to weigh out what it means to be paid more versus have a good boss versus have projects you like working on. No environment will be perfect. You learn a lot by jumping ship but you also pass up some of that respect that you gained at the last place plus your bosses/peers won't know you as well at the new place, which sometimes doesn't work in your favor because someone who knows you will help to push you and mold you.
You will always come up against those conservative/old school type bosses who want an employee that has been somewhere forever prior to landing in their lap. However, there are also lots of places that won't care about that and just want a smart, talented individual in the spot. It really comes down to how confident they are that they can keep you once you are hired.
We all battle with this decision in our lives. When you start to gripe a lot, go on vacation and chill out for a bit first and make sure that when you decide to go, that you really want to go and your not just sick of your coworkers and need a break. If you do leave a company, do what you can to communicate with your bosses and try to make it work. That way you won't ever feel guilty about not trying plus your communication skills will improve.
It seems as though if you are looking at things as though you are willing to get paid less to learn more because you are still young, that you will do well regardless. Nobody wants to be "that" manager who moved up too quick and whom everyone else thinks is stupid.
Everything in life is a calculated risk. Don't be too conservative when you're young. The aging process will make you plenty conservative enough. When you get to the end of your career (and life in general) you have more regrets about the gambles you didn't take than the ones you took.
I am at the point where every other day is either terrible or acceptable. This might just be what it's like to be turning 30 and realizing your fancy education and years of work aren't worth as much as you had hoped though.
I think i'll start very discreetly talking to people and seeing what is available around town at the firms I really want to be at, although I thought this was one of them. Maybe it still is. Maybe I just need a drink.
Submitted paperwork for my license though, so in 2 months I'll have another fancy yet meaningless piece of paper.
I'm just going to say that age 30 might be a low point in architecture. Before that, you are a student, or just starting at a firm. When you are just starting, you might not expect much. But by 30, you aren't quite ready for the big time, but start feeling like you are. It was a low point for me, for sure.
Expect to get more responsibility and pay throughout your 30's. By 39, you'll be a PM or PA or lead designer, and be enjoying your career more.
Or you could bag it now and start over with something different.
It's not a question of starting a different profession, just a different firm.
I know I want to have my own thing at some point, and I have a decent idea that I want to do some things differently than most firms. I was brought up around tools and fine, detailed workmanship so I want to believe there is a better way of doing things... and that goes beyond finances or running a firm and through to construction and working with trades.
"Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist."
It's the learning the rules part that is shitty, because the rules are fucking stupid.
AutoCAD? What is this shit.
GC's? Who the fuck are you?
Architects saying shit like "oh, that's for the guy doing the shop drawings to figure out."
I can understand why so many people in their late 20's/early 30's try to skip this part, but the surfeit of "architecture firms" around Chicago sucking off Somol's teat while teaching architecture to fund their amazing groundbreaking urban interventions, never mind the fact they aren't actually architects - well, that makes me think experience might be worth something.
Mar 22, 16 8:22 pm ·
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Should I Stay or Should I Go
Should I Stay or Should I Go
I know it is not viewed favorably to work for short periods of time at many different firms, but what do you do when its not working out? Stay and tough it out until you hit 18 or 24 months, or leave ASAP and look elsewhere?
Ultimately I want to find a firm that I click with and can work at for many years, but that can be tough to gauge just from interviews and talking to current employees. Promises are always made that can't be kept (maybe a function of the market/ the employers I am finding??) and it is tough to predict where the market is going next - making me nervous to leave.
I vacillate between being thankful I have a job at all (graduated in 2009 - not a good time to enter the market) and being frustrated that every firm is seemingly dysfunctional and either pays poorly, requires insane work hours, or does shitty design. Is it just a matter of picking which of those 3 is least objectionable and sticking with it?
How do the employers and firm owners out there respond to seeing someone with one or two jobs in a row shorter than 18 months on a resume?
what promises were broken? lack of money/promotion? lack of experience? didn't get the corner office with the windows?
You know, if you go there will be trouble...
curtkram, nothing so bourgeois as a corner office. We're talking basics like:
"We will get you the software you need to design and execute new and fresh projects."
"You will have significant control over consultants and project management."
"We are currently buying a new (modern) AV system for the conference rooms so you don't have to present on a 32" TV." (It's been 5 months - how long is too long to wait to follow through on this kind of stuff?)
I could go into more detail but also need to remain vague enough to be anonymous.
I would certainly like more money but that's not why I took the job. It was about design and experience. I am frustrated because I feel like I don't have the tools to design w/in the tight budgets and timeframes we have. As for experience, a couple large projects fell through so where the principal previously was looking at handing off some smaller projects to others to manage (me among them) that no longer seems to be in the cards.
archanonymous in architecture it's actually pretty much acceptable especially in NYC.
there was this architect that was doing really well when I moved to NYC. The word on the street was she had worked at 23 different places in 2 years, so not sure it matters much.
I switched to consulting fairly quickly as 1-2 years anywhere would drive me nuts. The longest employments I had were where I worked as a consultant in house and did my own thing - not on the side - but just did it.
If you have certain skills, and the employer has half a brain, they are more than willing to let you operate that way. It might take you 4 hours for something brilliant while it takes any other kid off the street 40, so some are wise and will to let you do that.
in theme with the Clash, are you feeling like this?
Was a red-flag to me, when I just got a cold resume sent to me. However the beauty of what we do is we can always omit mistakes and fill in with “Consulting”. If you begin to sense a problem just modify the resume…can be a problem in a small market though. I moved around a lot when I started and just explained it, if I sensed a problem in an interview…but those were rifle shot moves, different than broadcasting a resume.
Around here everyone is hiring like crazy, keep looking
What if you reached out to past coworkers? See where they are at and have a real talk abut whether or not it's a good place. Glass door is pretty good too with its reviews, some people are just grinding their axe but if there is a common theme in the complaints it's probably true
I'm not sure how rapid fire would look on a resume though, although given our current economy it may be ok. I've been lucky enough that I've done at least 2 years at every stop, and tend to get what I ask for at my current office.
If you don't get promoted/more responsibilities or pay raise after 2 years its time to move, that's how I do it. Plus I can't ever do anything more than 2 years anyhow.
how about trying out to start your own firm. then you will understand the perspective of your bosses otherwise begin to have a deep sense of patience. architecture surely requires this attitude more than the will to be creative or even self worth to be honest.
Olaf, yeah except maybe a t-square in place of the guitar.
Carrera,
Definitely a possibility and since I'm just some paperwork away from my license, it will be both more realistic for me to fill in gaps with Consulting on the resume and in actual work.
Josh,
I don't think you know my real-life identity although a mutual friend of ours at Gensler does. Your post is eerily spot-on.
Its unfortunate because I love working with this principal and the projects are really compelling to me, but the tools are shit, the project budgets are exceedingly tight, the financials of the firm are not great, and the I passed on a big pay bump (if I had gone to another firm) to be able to work on these kinds of projects and with this particular principal while I am under 30 because I wont be able to afford to do it later.
I am trying to balance an understanding of the importance of patience and slow pace of architecture with what is best for my long-term development as an architect, which is never an easy task.
archanonymous, it kind of sounds to me like it's not that bad where you're at. there's always the concern that you're jumping out of the fry pan and into the fire right?
especially if a couple large projects fell through, then that's a lot of money coming in to the office that they may have planned on using for the upgrades you were hoping for. it could be that what they wanted to do is just put on hold a little longer than everyone wants.
the bad offices are the ones where people lie and deceive to try to get you in line with their expectations. it could be that the promises they made are an example of this, in which case it's probably best to jump ship. if they are trying to be sincere and just had a setback though, that might be something to take into consideration.
if the principals are still accessible and you can speak frankly with them, you can probably ask them what their project outlook looks like to see if they have a schedule in mind for future upgrades, and let them know that if someone is going to be fucking around on the internet all day, it's better if they're doing that while they hand off the small projects to you so you can be spending your time getting useful experience.
i don't think people should be so quick to say 'start your own business.' that leads to unqualified people running businesses, which ultimately causes most problems i've seen in the industry. people who run businesses should be the people who are most qualified to do so.
There is something to be said about staying and there is something to be said about leaving. The technology and the firm's inability to estimate the resources required to complete the project or the timeline on the other hand, happens all over the place. No environment will be perfect. Sometime's the unrealistic schedule comes from the boss not properly negotiating with the client, sometimes it comes from the developer, or sometimes it has everything to do with who in the firm is driving the bus and not doing a good job and keeping things on track.
You've got to weigh out what it means to be paid more versus have a good boss versus have projects you like working on. No environment will be perfect. You learn a lot by jumping ship but you also pass up some of that respect that you gained at the last place plus your bosses/peers won't know you as well at the new place, which sometimes doesn't work in your favor because someone who knows you will help to push you and mold you.
You will always come up against those conservative/old school type bosses who want an employee that has been somewhere forever prior to landing in their lap. However, there are also lots of places that won't care about that and just want a smart, talented individual in the spot. It really comes down to how confident they are that they can keep you once you are hired.
We all battle with this decision in our lives. When you start to gripe a lot, go on vacation and chill out for a bit first and make sure that when you decide to go, that you really want to go and your not just sick of your coworkers and need a break. If you do leave a company, do what you can to communicate with your bosses and try to make it work. That way you won't ever feel guilty about not trying plus your communication skills will improve.
It seems as though if you are looking at things as though you are willing to get paid less to learn more because you are still young, that you will do well regardless. Nobody wants to be "that" manager who moved up too quick and whom everyone else thinks is stupid.
Everything in life is a calculated risk. Don't be too conservative when you're young. The aging process will make you plenty conservative enough. When you get to the end of your career (and life in general) you have more regrets about the gambles you didn't take than the ones you took.
thanks for the opinions.
I am at the point where every other day is either terrible or acceptable. This might just be what it's like to be turning 30 and realizing your fancy education and years of work aren't worth as much as you had hoped though.
I think i'll start very discreetly talking to people and seeing what is available around town at the firms I really want to be at, although I thought this was one of them. Maybe it still is. Maybe I just need a drink.
Submitted paperwork for my license though, so in 2 months I'll have another fancy yet meaningless piece of paper.
Maybe I should just move to the suburbs and go work for starbucks or chipotle or stantec... paying 6 figures for someone with my experience.
I'll show myself out.
it's not just a meaningless piece of paper arch. you also get a stamp. with a wood handle. they're very nice.
I haven't gotten a wooden handled stamp, yet. Dammit. I want one.
That thing better come gilded.
Mine is plastic, but pre-inked. Daughter thinks it's the coolest thing ever
I'm just going to say that age 30 might be a low point in architecture. Before that, you are a student, or just starting at a firm. When you are just starting, you might not expect much. But by 30, you aren't quite ready for the big time, but start feeling like you are. It was a low point for me, for sure.
Expect to get more responsibility and pay throughout your 30's. By 39, you'll be a PM or PA or lead designer, and be enjoying your career more.
Or you could bag it now and start over with something different.
Best of luck.
It's not a question of starting a different profession, just a different firm.
I know I want to have my own thing at some point, and I have a decent idea that I want to do some things differently than most firms. I was brought up around tools and fine, detailed workmanship so I want to believe there is a better way of doing things... and that goes beyond finances or running a firm and through to construction and working with trades.
"Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist."
It's the learning the rules part that is shitty, because the rules are fucking stupid.
AutoCAD? What is this shit.
GC's? Who the fuck are you?
Architects saying shit like "oh, that's for the guy doing the shop drawings to figure out."
I can understand why so many people in their late 20's/early 30's try to skip this part, but the surfeit of "architecture firms" around Chicago sucking off Somol's teat while teaching architecture to fund their amazing groundbreaking urban interventions, never mind the fact they aren't actually architects - well, that makes me think experience might be worth something.
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