Outside of the US and europe and japan (read: mid-east/africa/eastern europe/south america/others...) being an architect is largely a matter of simply knowing someone who will pay you to design them a building. Degree? Optional. License? What's that!? The builder typically figures out how the thing will actually stand up, and since no building inspector will ever see it (either because he was bribed or because he doesn't exist), the sky's the limit...
spec those minimalist open handrails til your little hearts content.
Government regulation is 'fluid' to say the least, and bullshit dilettante firms (i.e. my daddy rents me a 'studio' and pays my friends to hang out with me) abound. These kids have connections, $$$, and basically run on 100% overhead... so they'll definately get published long before "we" do.
Every once in while one of these little gems even has some talent and work ethic, and these are typically the ones who actually break into 'real' architecture. But were they located here in the states it would take them DECADES longer to get the work that they have... so you can't really blame them for exploiting their connections in the mother-land. But we CAN be jealous...
It does, however, bother the CRAP out of me when I see one of these folks on the lecture circuit here in the states... these fakes gain attention by being the ONLY fish in a tiny pond, buying their way into the profession, and (this one really pisses me off) leveraging their ethnicity and supposed "third world roots" to cash in on the affirmative-action angle. Meanwhile daddy own's 9 maquilladoras in tijuana, or is the godfather of the romanian mob...
My point? The profession here in the states needs to stop rewarding these fakes with awards and teaching positions and publicity. By allowing these people to enter into the upper echelons of the architecture community, we are shooting our own young architects (who are more quailified, better educated, and certainly MANY of them are MUCH more talented and capable) in the foot.
That licensure in the West is more restrictive should not make you feel superior. On the contrary, it sheds light on the fact that Architects are in one of the phase II professions. China and India will be more interested in Architects once the throngs of young engineers have built up necessary infrastructure to move into a more jaded fat sophisticated state.
yeah WTF...talent is talent....you'd probably do the same in their situation. I dont see it as much different fromt he big names that are currently in our country. yeah they have talent but they wouldnt be in the place they are without their trust funds and friends/family in high places. There are just as many people who have lesser credentials and just as talented in the US that dont have the opportunities these big names have becasue of lack of connections or an ivy league degree. Do some research into the history of our big names...if you havent realized its extremely incestuous, and i am sure if you dig deep enough you could find some shady source of family wealth.
What firms and countries do you speak of? Maybe I'll go there.
Goddamn foreign lazy trust fund poseurs coming up here taking jobs away from our decent all American lazy trust fund poseurs. There oughta be a law again it.
That one might start sounding racist (or rather chauvinistic) were it to make any fucking sense at all.
This whole conversation is stupid. People make it "big" in architecture for a variety of reasons. The reasoning of the first post, "lazy trust fund poseur" is one of these reasons... but, because the guy is a racist, he doesn't realize that many of our big name American Starchitects today were themselves "lazy trust fund poseurs" depending on the angle you want to look at. So I'm saying, shut up and care about the work, care about the architecture... and if you're worrying about this, you're in the wrong profession.
Should a less qaulified doctor from an ass backwards country be held up to the same light as a better educated American or European doctor? What about lawyers? Because Architecture is a licensed professon, there is a standard that must be upheld. That is what shanec is saying, and that hardly qualifies him as a racist.
you shanec will be amazed how unprepared you are to build in a third world country, good architecture goes beyond flashy materials and shapes. You are the arrogant and ignorant type that thinks there is nothing to learn from the third world.
optimk, in third world countries we say that doctors in US are as good as their equipment, they have less field experience, but this forum is about architecture.
Shanec give us some names, sometimes the architects that get the awards are the ones whose style look somehow similar to the style here.
Qualifed to do what? Publish in our magazines come talk about their work. It’s not like somebody’s power point presentation is going to fall on your fool head. You might even learn something about what’s going on outside of what ever ass backward holler you’re practicing in.
Even architects from pretty darn ass frontward’s places can’t practice here. What do think the whole protectionist architect of record thing is about. How about if you like standards so much you do your IDP twice just to be extra patriotic. AIA’s got standards for day’s dude.
I don’t know about you but I’d pretty stoked to see a few fresh well connected dilettantes on the lecture circuit to sort of spice up the usual bunch of home grown well connected dilettantes we tend to get. But then I don’t usually go to lecture sot check out how brilliantly someone’s fulfilled the uniform building code.
I dont want to give the wrong impression here, i live and work in the states, theres good and bad architecture , and many things to learn here as there are in the rest of the world, and to work in each country requiresa lot of learning, it doesnt mean because you are froma developed country you are going to be the king in the rest of the world.
I am pretty angry for the racist tone of shanec, some of the things he/she said are true but not all.
optmik, the doctors here relay more in tecnology than in the themselves and the patient as a human being, that in others part of the world, here medicine , medicine technology and equipmentnis one of the best in the world if not the best, but medical care, cost and inequalities in the mdical system are porbably the worst ones in the so called first world.
Not only is this an impossible generalization based on ignorant assumptions, but its factually not true.I have friends who practice in the middle-east, eastern europe and in latin america, and they all had to register in their local architect's board ,some that require a recognized degree and most that require a recognized degree and work experience. Whether this shanec and his like deem those international institutions to be, a priori, irrelevant only evidences his or her generalizing bigotry.
As for the architecture itself, there is much challenging and interesting work happening (and has always been happening) outside the 'circle of civilization' noted by this shanec. No citing is needed, if shanec is ignorant of the fact, he has only his belligerent ignorance to blame.
On the other hand, in many countries, the roles of civil engineer and architect are regretably interchangeable. But this occurs in many countries is western europe as well..as is the case with Athens.
Okay I am almost afraid to post amongst this dialogue because the lines have been drawn in the sand already.
I don't find shanec comments racist, rather a bit ignorant of actual facts and maybe a tad zenaphobic.
Here's the thing... alot of the third world starchitects that are being criticised usually come from the recognised schools not in their native countries but from the AAs, GSD, Columbia, etc. And they usually have talent. The others may come from schools you've never heard but bet your ass - they are perhaps as better than the hype/buzz being created.
In regards to arch registration, and building regulations. Now as a matter of context - I've built in the US and outside the US...so I guess I'm one of those bastards shanec speaks of. In the US there was a great deal of running around after submitting documents for the arranging of inspection etc. And I like it...it was very professional, but the funny thing was that the standards that I was operating from ie what I knew, was based on something out of a developing country's environment which designed for 1 in 50/75 yr events such as hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. things I would have consider if I were working from home.
The truth is, most standards in developing countries have first world practices as a basis - but are significantly developed to cater to the idiosyncrasys of the locale. There are guidelines and rules that must be catered for architects (or any professionals) who want to practice in a foreign land - look them up first before you start your ramage again
the language that shanec uses is one of intorence and it is directed to people of other races. read some of the things he says as if it were a white person talking about a black person in 1950s america.
- "Every once in while one of these little gems even has some talent and work ethic..."
- "It does, however, bother the CRAP out of me when I see one of these folks on the lecture circuit..." these people? wtf?
- "these fakes gain attention by being the ONLY fish in a tiny pond"
- "leveraging their ethnicity and supposed "third world roots" to cash in on the affirmative-action angle"
- "By allowing these people to enter into the upper echelons of the architecture community, we are shooting our own young architects (who are more quailified, better educated, and certainly MANY of them are MUCH more talented and capable) in the foot."
maybe i'm wrong. maybe he's not be a racist, but he sure does sound like one. at a minimum, like most have said here, he is rather ignorant.
The issue is not, has not, and will never be about race. To anyone that tried to spin my post that way: shame on you, that was SO low. Go to your room.
Makes me a little worried for you all if indeed you are unaware of how the reality of the issues I posted about are effecting your profession.
On that not, let me bring to your attention that this is a REAL issue in our profession... probably a bit more important than bathroom habits or where to buy expensive (black) clothes.
I have close friends here in the US who are practicing/have practiced in what people on this site have called 'developing countires' (latvia, bulgaria, croatia, lebanon, china) . THey are talented, intelligent, hardworking folks... AND THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE DILETTANTE PROBLEM ALL THE TIME. They are INCREDIBLY frustraited that these rich, connected opportunists get work published and recieve teaching jobs here in the states simply because they are a priviledged member of their own country's ruling aristocracy.
I can say, thankfully, that at the top-level schools here in the states this kind of dilettante (and by that I mean exactly what I described in the first post: somebody unqualified who has used their $$$ and connections essentially buy their way into the academic/awards culture here in America).
THe problem comes when these folks begin cultivating relationships with second and third tier schools (oh your going to have a field day with that one aren't you all?). Nobody calls the bluff, and the emperor prances around without clothes... shitting all over the education of somebody who deserved better.
Let me be CRYSTAL clear about who I'm talking about, lest I give more fodder for the sensationalists here... unqualified, developing-country aristocrat-'architects' who are using their $$$, connections, and the lack of checks and balences in their own countries to make a name for themselves here.
Nothing in what I said precludes, a QUALIFIED, TALENTED individual with all the $$$ (or not) and connections (or not) in the world from teaching, winning awards, and practicing here in the states... in fact, these are the people hurt MOST by the dilettantes I'm speaking about, because the culture of dilettantes creates a stereotype that is hard to live down.
If you can't figure out how that hurts us as young professionals here, you are either blind, dumb, or one of the people I'm talking about.
Look dumbass, architecture the world over is all about money and connections. In fact it could be construed as the art of connecting money with ideas about building things. It’s also full of haters who sit around venting their frustrations on each other and making up excuses for why, no matter how much they may appear to suck, they don’t actually suck but were instead cheated of their rightful allotment of money, power, recognition, chicks, whatever.
A particularly low, and scary, excuse is that they were cheated by dirty foreigners.
If you think money and power fucks up architecture doesn’t it follow the places with the most money and power would be the most fucked up?
I don’t know who you are talking about but second and third tier schools are often lucky to get people who would be at first tier schools were they from this country. Do you feel shat upon by Raphael Vignoli and those other Argentine guys who came up after Perone got deposed? I’m not a big Pele fan all the time but they definitely worked very hard and contributed a lot.
Listen, I'll make no bones about it... if somebody is sitting in a position for which they are unqualified and only recieved because of hand-greasing, nepotism, or whatever... I'm gonna lay the smack down on that ass.
I've seen this kind of shit go down at the best institutions we have here in the states, the only merit that allowing these folks entry into our best academic institutions being the fact that they have to pay $$$ up-front thus subsidizing the rest of us.
But it still idn't worht it.
Unlike you, I'm not content to say "Oh, well... money-ed dilettantes control my profession, ho-hum."
I've put myself in a position to effect at least some degree of change, and I'll continue to do so. I am unabashedly out to make room for talented lower-middle class kids like myself in this profession... and if that means pissing off some unqualified dilettante's in the process... I'M ALL FOR IT:).
And another thing... keep the "dumbass" crap to yourself.
The 'annonymous' aspect of the net always seems to trigger the heroic side of cowards. You never know who you might be embarrasing yourself in front of...so keep the discussion a discussion and leave the names for the playground.
But this place is a good step... video killed the radio star.
Its not a witch hunt against money-ed architects (or foreign architects...sheesh)... rather, it is a witch hunt for these:
char·la·tan ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shärl-tn)
n.
A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud.
The country became worst as you speak... please shut up.
There are people with money in every place in the world
They have better opportunities some time, we all know that…
If you are good architect they can not bother you,
Some times they contract you to help them to be a better office.
I would prefer to be one of them than stupid like you
"There are just as many people who have lesser credentials and just as talented in the US that dont have the opportunities these big names have becasue of lack of connections or an ivy league degree."
Most of the people I'm talking about already have an Ivy League degree. In fact, it is all the fashion these days.
Why shanec, arent you the model hypocrite!! some of us worked very hard for our ivy league degrees, and are very proud to have one. I feel sorry for you.
It would be easy to say that people like you give architecture a bad name....but someone as insignificant and foolish as you is completely ignored at best.
I’d call you a dumbass to your face dumbass and yes you do scare me. It scares me when ignorant agro meatheads go around feeling qualified to decide who should have the position they have and who doesn’t and it really scares me when the standard they are using to justify them selves is jingoistic nationalism.
We lower middle class Americans have been held down and made fools of for too long by those in positions of power and privilege who try to convince us that we should blame our frustration and disempowerment on “foreigners†and other races. Untill we start working on resisting the system we ourselves are imbedded in your “position to effect at least some degree of change†is just going to be another little prop for white-boy privilege and, if you are one of these working class angry white man types, the sad thing is that it isn’t even your own privilege your propping. Those in power keep people like you like vicious dogs that will fight like hell to protect the occasional scrap they throw them while protecting their own position so they can appear gracious and open.
I’m not angry at you because I don’t know where you’re coming from I’m angry at you because when you act like a chump you make chumps of us all
When did financial leverage and political communionism become exclusive to the 'developing countries'?
In many 'developing' countries, there is an issue with favouratism and corrupt bureaucracies ...but can we not claim that there is a strong connection between well-to-do white Republicans and the construction industry in the US? Is not entry to US and UK architecture schools largely determined by the financial and cultural-educational (with ethnic undertones) status of the applicants? There is an unjust element in that...but do we immediately infer from that that the US and the UK are, in whole, bigoted and prejudiced countries that favour money and background? Does the Japanese dictatorial highschool system favour the uncritical labourer over others...does that make Japan into a dictatorship? Do we just generalize even more and say the whole world is a bloody miserable place?
For a fact, in croatia and in lebanon (since you have friends from there..you might actually ask them) a degree and a license are not an option, but necessities.
Your mythomaniacal them-us rhetoric is not so strange, it sounds so very familiar. And.....the line 'I have gay/black/'developing world' friends' does not absolve you from being bigoted. I don't think you really are racist...just a bit of a 'dumbass'.
shanec, i think the single most important thing a good architect can do is listen. listen to what your peers are telling you and learn from it. in this forum, you usually get people weighing in on both sides of any issue. not this one. learn from it.
next time you pass by a native american reservation remember who's "country" this is. The 'third world' exists right here in the 'first'. I may be dumb, or 'one of the people you're talking about', but I'm definitely not blind.
I'll put forth that the prevailing discourse being promoted here is Institutional racism: racial prejudice supported by institutional power and authority used to the advantage of one race over others.
"I've put myself in a position to effect at least some degree of change, and I'll continue to do so"
"so, what are you going to do to change this situation?"
"Call these folks out when they apply to work with me."
wait I've got one better:
LOOKING FOR
a QUALIFIED, TALENTED individual with all the $$$ (or not) and connections (or not) in the world from teaching, winning awards, and practicing here in the states
NEED NOT APPLY
unqualified, developing-country aristocrat-'architects' who are using their $$$, connections, and the lack of checks and balences in their own countries to make a name for themselves here. (read: mid-east/africa/eastern europe/south america/others...)
man, authority and power goes a long way. I think I'll go to my room now.
Umm... it is cheating if you re-word what I say to fit your stereotype of who you want to believe I am.
What a load.
Deduct 10 points, each of you.
E-
Go lecture somebody else...
The issue of the charlaten/dilettante is a real and troubling one, especially in schools these days (or at least the one I went to).
HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I BE?!?! THE ISSUE IS UNQUALIFIED DILETTANTES IN OUR PROFESSION RAKING IN POSITIONS AND AWARDS...
Watching you guys LITERALLY put words in my mouth is sickening... do you REALLY need to have someone to lash out at THAT BAD that you'll actually CHANGE what they wrote and hit them over the head with it? What LOSERS!
There is no "apology" for making the connection between the several of these people that I have met and the fact that nearly all have come from what I'll call 'third world aristocracy' (rich people in poor countries).
I am amazed that nobody has the balls to talk about this here, it is a discussion I've had numerous times with friends from work and school... who obviously have the balls to actually acknowledge something that might be uncomfortable or politically sensitive.
e put down your frankfurt school critical theory bullshit. Just becauase you call Shanec a rascist doesn't make him one. Your attempt to derail his argument based on the pretension that he is a rascist is childish and show a shallow intellect. This race tatics of the frankfurt school replace proper discourse with a lord of the flies gang mentality where truth = consensus.
Furthermore you may have missed the important aspects of Shanecs point becuase you already had your mind made up about what he was going to say. That's pretty closeminded for someone supposedly so embracing of other ways of life.
This is some forum where an individual who may hold a particular opinion us pretty much shut up and mocked, instead of being listened too. I expect more from people who call themselves creative.
dil·et·tante Audio pronunciation of "dilettante" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl-tänt, dl-tänt, -tänt, -tnt, -tnt)
n. pl. dil·et·tantes, also dil·et·tan·ti (-tänt, -tn-)
1. A dabbler in an art or a field of knowledge. See Synonyms at amateur.
2. A lover of the fine arts; a connoisseur.
adj.
Superficial; amateurish.
******ESTUDIO TEDDY CRUZ*****
Awards
2002 AIA San Diego Chapter, Overall Best Design, Corridors on Imperial Low Income Housing, San Diego, California
2002 AIA San Diego Chapter, Best Unbuilt Project, Corridors on Imperial Low Income Housing, San Diego, California
2001 PA Award, Architecture Magazine, San Ysidro affordable Housing Project
2001 Architectural League of New York, Young Architects Forum Award
2001 AIA San Diego Chapter, Merit Award for Outstanding Contribution in Design, American Institute of Architects, San Diego Chapter, Rubalcaba-Klink Residence
1994 Honor Award American Institute of Architects, San Diego Chapter, Las Gradas Residence, Tijuana Mexico
1991 Rome Prize in Architecture, American Academy in Rome, Italy
Publications and Exhibitions
2002 City Limits, Young Architects 3, The Architectural League of New York, Princeton Architectural Press
2001 Praxis, Journal of Writing and Building, Issue 3: Housing Tactics
2001 Young Architects Forum Exhibition, Architectural League of New York, Urban Center, New York City
2001 "Casa Familiar, Living Rooms at the Border†Architecture Magazine, PA awards Issue
2001 Drawings by Architects, Flux Gallery, San Diego, California
2000 "Border Walls, Border Cities and the Double Headed Trojan Horse of Tijuana†Thresholds, MIT Journal of the School of Architecture, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2000 Ann Jarmush, "Imagine: Architect teams present visions of housing for a growing San Diego,†The San Diego Union Tribune, Jan 2.
1999 Guest Editor, Architecture of the Borderlands, Architectural Design, Fall Issue, London, England
1998 From the Center, SCI-Arc Faculty Process, Monacelli Press, New York
*********************
does that list of publications, exhibition and awards sound like the work or a "dabbler" or "amatuer"? if these well-respected practitioners are your definition of dilettante, i think it's you that needs to go back to school, not them.
I just went to a Teddy Cruz lecture and he is highly inspiring. I really have no clue why you would even care about how someone gets to where they are...but I would think that merely focusing on your own work and creating relationships would be the best way to grow yourself.
I have been published as a graphic designer in many books and magazines and local rags...doesnt make the work I do any easier...actually for me it ups the anty because now people have expectations.
I am white, anglo saxon...and Teddy happily gave me his phone number, email, and we shared stories of experiences in guatemala and mexico (two countries I absolutely love) and I was very inspired...Race never came up...it is a non issue...social issues are much more pressing and transcend race in most contemporary scenarios.
Shed any jealousy our discontent and just focus on your work...its the only way to push yourself...making up untrue scenarios vie heresay on who or how someone got to where they are is just silly...and disruptive to your own growth.
now go create and be your own best ambasador for your work...there is no other way.
shanec, i am sure when adolph and his buddies were sitting around the beer halls, their "discussions" sounded reasonable, go ask phillip johnson how charming they sounded.
please tell me the difference between the "third world dilettantes" and our so called qualified "non third world dilettantes"? do you think a license is what separates them? are those wealthy american architects doing anything to help my cause? i think we need to get rid of licensing altogether, open the profession up to everyone with a degree, get the attorneys out of my profession...and let the world burn, burn, burn baby!!!
actually edwin lutyens future mother in law (who was the widow of a baron) didn't want her daughter to marry an architect. not enough prestige you see. to rooted in the trades. lutyens was pretty talented fellow and oh so cheeky.
i don't think most archinecters realize or are aware of what you speak of, including myself. call me naive or blind, but give us specifics rather than facetious anecdotes, 'Meanwhile daddy own's 9 maquilladoras in tijuana, or is the godfather of the romanian mob...'. that would make this a more enlightening discussion than a back and forth rant. as for your teddy cruz link, what are you trying to say with that? do you know something about them that we don't? please share.
there is no romanian mob.
there is eventually a russian mob (further east).
romania is not part of the third world.
we also do need a license and a degree here. even the sons of 'the godfather'. though daddy's son won't ever bother to study arch.
yes, the bribe is working here (always pays off) and some regulations are more fluid for some of us(not in constructions), projects are handeld to relatives/friends.
that's why we are a 'developing country'. but we also have inspectors who do their job, strict construction regulations. it really ain't as if the sky was the limit.
i also believe that there are daddy's sons everywhere, and money and politics always light de way.
it's not the way i'ld like it to be, but then again, i couldn't chose my birthplace neither.
shanec, i think i understand what u mean. only it's not that dramatic (i refer to my country).also, a regular citizen (like i am) won't ever have the money to go to america, except maybe as a tourist...
for extra info about how arch school in romania is, check my blog
please stay out of my country
Outside of the US and europe and japan (read: mid-east/africa/eastern europe/south america/others...) being an architect is largely a matter of simply knowing someone who will pay you to design them a building. Degree? Optional. License? What's that!? The builder typically figures out how the thing will actually stand up, and since no building inspector will ever see it (either because he was bribed or because he doesn't exist), the sky's the limit...
spec those minimalist open handrails til your little hearts content.
Government regulation is 'fluid' to say the least, and bullshit dilettante firms (i.e. my daddy rents me a 'studio' and pays my friends to hang out with me) abound. These kids have connections, $$$, and basically run on 100% overhead... so they'll definately get published long before "we" do.
Every once in while one of these little gems even has some talent and work ethic, and these are typically the ones who actually break into 'real' architecture. But were they located here in the states it would take them DECADES longer to get the work that they have... so you can't really blame them for exploiting their connections in the mother-land. But we CAN be jealous...
It does, however, bother the CRAP out of me when I see one of these folks on the lecture circuit here in the states... these fakes gain attention by being the ONLY fish in a tiny pond, buying their way into the profession, and (this one really pisses me off) leveraging their ethnicity and supposed "third world roots" to cash in on the affirmative-action angle. Meanwhile daddy own's 9 maquilladoras in tijuana, or is the godfather of the romanian mob...
My point? The profession here in the states needs to stop rewarding these fakes with awards and teaching positions and publicity. By allowing these people to enter into the upper echelons of the architecture community, we are shooting our own young architects (who are more quailified, better educated, and certainly MANY of them are MUCH more talented and capable) in the foot.
shanec - you are an ignoramus.
ignoramus and a racist.
who and what the hell are you talking about? take a deep breath and talk slooooooowly!
what
That licensure in the West is more restrictive should not make you feel superior. On the contrary, it sheds light on the fact that Architects are in one of the phase II professions. China and India will be more interested in Architects once the throngs of young engineers have built up necessary infrastructure to move into a more jaded fat sophisticated state.
yeah WTF...talent is talent....you'd probably do the same in their situation. I dont see it as much different fromt he big names that are currently in our country. yeah they have talent but they wouldnt be in the place they are without their trust funds and friends/family in high places. There are just as many people who have lesser credentials and just as talented in the US that dont have the opportunities these big names have becasue of lack of connections or an ivy league degree. Do some research into the history of our big names...if you havent realized its extremely incestuous, and i am sure if you dig deep enough you could find some shady source of family wealth.
What firms and countries do you speak of? Maybe I'll go there.
Goddamn foreign lazy trust fund poseurs coming up here taking jobs away from our decent all American lazy trust fund poseurs. There oughta be a law again it.
That one might start sounding racist (or rather chauvinistic) were it to make any fucking sense at all.
This whole conversation is stupid. People make it "big" in architecture for a variety of reasons. The reasoning of the first post, "lazy trust fund poseur" is one of these reasons... but, because the guy is a racist, he doesn't realize that many of our big name American Starchitects today were themselves "lazy trust fund poseurs" depending on the angle you want to look at. So I'm saying, shut up and care about the work, care about the architecture... and if you're worrying about this, you're in the wrong profession.
Should a less qaulified doctor from an ass backwards country be held up to the same light as a better educated American or European doctor? What about lawyers? Because Architecture is a licensed professon, there is a standard that must be upheld. That is what shanec is saying, and that hardly qualifies him as a racist.
you shanec will be amazed how unprepared you are to build in a third world country, good architecture goes beyond flashy materials and shapes. You are the arrogant and ignorant type that thinks there is nothing to learn from the third world.
optimk, in third world countries we say that doctors in US are as good as their equipment, they have less field experience, but this forum is about architecture.
Shanec give us some names, sometimes the architects that get the awards are the ones whose style look somehow similar to the style here.
Duh. Style monkeys = Shit
I thinks that the point shanec was trying to make Mr Funga.
As for Doctors and Equiptment that arguement is as retarded as an architect being as good as his software.
poo on you.
Qualifed to do what? Publish in our magazines come talk about their work. It’s not like somebody’s power point presentation is going to fall on your fool head. You might even learn something about what’s going on outside of what ever ass backward holler you’re practicing in.
Even architects from pretty darn ass frontward’s places can’t practice here. What do think the whole protectionist architect of record thing is about. How about if you like standards so much you do your IDP twice just to be extra patriotic. AIA’s got standards for day’s dude.
I don’t know about you but I’d pretty stoked to see a few fresh well connected dilettantes on the lecture circuit to sort of spice up the usual bunch of home grown well connected dilettantes we tend to get. But then I don’t usually go to lecture sot check out how brilliantly someone’s fulfilled the uniform building code.
You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
I dont want to give the wrong impression here, i live and work in the states, theres good and bad architecture , and many things to learn here as there are in the rest of the world, and to work in each country requiresa lot of learning, it doesnt mean because you are froma developed country you are going to be the king in the rest of the world.
I am pretty angry for the racist tone of shanec, some of the things he/she said are true but not all.
optmik, the doctors here relay more in tecnology than in the themselves and the patient as a human being, that in others part of the world, here medicine , medicine technology and equipmentnis one of the best in the world if not the best, but medical care, cost and inequalities in the mdical system are porbably the worst ones in the so called first world.
as newstreamlinedmodel take a look outside.
as newstreamlinedmodel said take a look outside.
I must second, or third, e and diabase.
Not only is this an impossible generalization based on ignorant assumptions, but its factually not true.I have friends who practice in the middle-east, eastern europe and in latin america, and they all had to register in their local architect's board ,some that require a recognized degree and most that require a recognized degree and work experience. Whether this shanec and his like deem those international institutions to be, a priori, irrelevant only evidences his or her generalizing bigotry.
As for the architecture itself, there is much challenging and interesting work happening (and has always been happening) outside the 'circle of civilization' noted by this shanec. No citing is needed, if shanec is ignorant of the fact, he has only his belligerent ignorance to blame.
On the other hand, in many countries, the roles of civil engineer and architect are regretably interchangeable. But this occurs in many countries is western europe as well..as is the case with Athens.
Okay I am almost afraid to post amongst this dialogue because the lines have been drawn in the sand already.
I don't find shanec comments racist, rather a bit ignorant of actual facts and maybe a tad zenaphobic.
Here's the thing... alot of the third world starchitects that are being criticised usually come from the recognised schools not in their native countries but from the AAs, GSD, Columbia, etc. And they usually have talent. The others may come from schools you've never heard but bet your ass - they are perhaps as better than the hype/buzz being created.
In regards to arch registration, and building regulations. Now as a matter of context - I've built in the US and outside the US...so I guess I'm one of those bastards shanec speaks of. In the US there was a great deal of running around after submitting documents for the arranging of inspection etc. And I like it...it was very professional, but the funny thing was that the standards that I was operating from ie what I knew, was based on something out of a developing country's environment which designed for 1 in 50/75 yr events such as hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. things I would have consider if I were working from home.
The truth is, most standards in developing countries have first world practices as a basis - but are significantly developed to cater to the idiosyncrasys of the locale. There are guidelines and rules that must be catered for architects (or any professionals) who want to practice in a foreign land - look them up first before you start your ramage again
outti
the language that shanec uses is one of intorence and it is directed to people of other races. read some of the things he says as if it were a white person talking about a black person in 1950s america.
- "Every once in while one of these little gems even has some talent and work ethic..."
- "It does, however, bother the CRAP out of me when I see one of these folks on the lecture circuit..." these people? wtf?
- "these fakes gain attention by being the ONLY fish in a tiny pond"
- "leveraging their ethnicity and supposed "third world roots" to cash in on the affirmative-action angle"
- "By allowing these people to enter into the upper echelons of the architecture community, we are shooting our own young architects (who are more quailified, better educated, and certainly MANY of them are MUCH more talented and capable) in the foot."
maybe i'm wrong. maybe he's not be a racist, but he sure does sound like one. at a minimum, like most have said here, he is rather ignorant.
a young "others" architect according to shanec specs.
The issue is not, has not, and will never be about race. To anyone that tried to spin my post that way: shame on you, that was SO low. Go to your room.
Makes me a little worried for you all if indeed you are unaware of how the reality of the issues I posted about are effecting your profession.
On that not, let me bring to your attention that this is a REAL issue in our profession... probably a bit more important than bathroom habits or where to buy expensive (black) clothes.
I have close friends here in the US who are practicing/have practiced in what people on this site have called 'developing countires' (latvia, bulgaria, croatia, lebanon, china) . THey are talented, intelligent, hardworking folks... AND THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE DILETTANTE PROBLEM ALL THE TIME. They are INCREDIBLY frustraited that these rich, connected opportunists get work published and recieve teaching jobs here in the states simply because they are a priviledged member of their own country's ruling aristocracy.
I can say, thankfully, that at the top-level schools here in the states this kind of dilettante (and by that I mean exactly what I described in the first post: somebody unqualified who has used their $$$ and connections essentially buy their way into the academic/awards culture here in America).
THe problem comes when these folks begin cultivating relationships with second and third tier schools (oh your going to have a field day with that one aren't you all?). Nobody calls the bluff, and the emperor prances around without clothes... shitting all over the education of somebody who deserved better.
Let me be CRYSTAL clear about who I'm talking about, lest I give more fodder for the sensationalists here... unqualified, developing-country aristocrat-'architects' who are using their $$$, connections, and the lack of checks and balences in their own countries to make a name for themselves here.
Nothing in what I said precludes, a QUALIFIED, TALENTED individual with all the $$$ (or not) and connections (or not) in the world from teaching, winning awards, and practicing here in the states... in fact, these are the people hurt MOST by the dilettantes I'm speaking about, because the culture of dilettantes creates a stereotype that is hard to live down.
If you can't figure out how that hurts us as young professionals here, you are either blind, dumb, or one of the people I'm talking about.
Here we go... more to come
http://www.california-architects.com/content/profiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=profile&architect=2416&lang=e
http://www.mcasd.org/exhibitions/archives/torolab.html
This is what happens when cousins marry
Look dumbass, architecture the world over is all about money and connections. In fact it could be construed as the art of connecting money with ideas about building things. It’s also full of haters who sit around venting their frustrations on each other and making up excuses for why, no matter how much they may appear to suck, they don’t actually suck but were instead cheated of their rightful allotment of money, power, recognition, chicks, whatever.
A particularly low, and scary, excuse is that they were cheated by dirty foreigners.
If you think money and power fucks up architecture doesn’t it follow the places with the most money and power would be the most fucked up?
I don’t know who you are talking about but second and third tier schools are often lucky to get people who would be at first tier schools were they from this country. Do you feel shat upon by Raphael Vignoli and those other Argentine guys who came up after Perone got deposed? I’m not a big Pele fan all the time but they definitely worked very hard and contributed a lot.
damn he called out those people - they are going to call a hit on him soon
shanec I'm glad you reposted and clarified your statements...
newstreamlined model writes:
"Look dumbass..."
Sounds like I scared one up here.
Listen, I'll make no bones about it... if somebody is sitting in a position for which they are unqualified and only recieved because of hand-greasing, nepotism, or whatever... I'm gonna lay the smack down on that ass.
I've seen this kind of shit go down at the best institutions we have here in the states, the only merit that allowing these folks entry into our best academic institutions being the fact that they have to pay $$$ up-front thus subsidizing the rest of us.
But it still idn't worht it.
Unlike you, I'm not content to say "Oh, well... money-ed dilettantes control my profession, ho-hum."
I've put myself in a position to effect at least some degree of change, and I'll continue to do so. I am unabashedly out to make room for talented lower-middle class kids like myself in this profession... and if that means pissing off some unqualified dilettante's in the process... I'M ALL FOR IT:).
And another thing... keep the "dumbass" crap to yourself.
The 'annonymous' aspect of the net always seems to trigger the heroic side of cowards. You never know who you might be embarrasing yourself in front of...so keep the discussion a discussion and leave the names for the playground.
so, what are you going to do to change this situation?
and are you going to somehow change this is every industry, or just architecture?
Stephanie-
I ain't no robin hood.
But this place is a good step... video killed the radio star.
Its not a witch hunt against money-ed architects (or foreign architects...sheesh)... rather, it is a witch hunt for these:
char·la·tan ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shärl-tn)
n.
A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud.
"so, what are you going to do to change this situation?"
Call these folks out when they apply to work with me.
shanec,
Your opinion is sad,
You are racist
The country became worst as you speak... please shut up.
There are people with money in every place in the world
They have better opportunities some time, we all know that…
If you are good architect they can not bother you,
Some times they contract you to help them to be a better office.
I would prefer to be one of them than stupid like you
Monkeyboy writes:
"There are just as many people who have lesser credentials and just as talented in the US that dont have the opportunities these big names have becasue of lack of connections or an ivy league degree."
Most of the people I'm talking about already have an Ivy League degree. In fact, it is all the fashion these days.
Even I bought one :).
(^ on credit, of course)
Why shanec, arent you the model hypocrite!! some of us worked very hard for our ivy league degrees, and are very proud to have one. I feel sorry for you.
It would be easy to say that people like you give architecture a bad name....but someone as insignificant and foolish as you is completely ignored at best.
I’d call you a dumbass to your face dumbass and yes you do scare me. It scares me when ignorant agro meatheads go around feeling qualified to decide who should have the position they have and who doesn’t and it really scares me when the standard they are using to justify them selves is jingoistic nationalism.
We lower middle class Americans have been held down and made fools of for too long by those in positions of power and privilege who try to convince us that we should blame our frustration and disempowerment on “foreigners†and other races. Untill we start working on resisting the system we ourselves are imbedded in your “position to effect at least some degree of change†is just going to be another little prop for white-boy privilege and, if you are one of these working class angry white man types, the sad thing is that it isn’t even your own privilege your propping. Those in power keep people like you like vicious dogs that will fight like hell to protect the occasional scrap they throw them while protecting their own position so they can appear gracious and open.
I’m not angry at you because I don’t know where you’re coming from I’m angry at you because when you act like a chump you make chumps of us all
When did financial leverage and political communionism become exclusive to the 'developing countries'?
In many 'developing' countries, there is an issue with favouratism and corrupt bureaucracies ...but can we not claim that there is a strong connection between well-to-do white Republicans and the construction industry in the US? Is not entry to US and UK architecture schools largely determined by the financial and cultural-educational (with ethnic undertones) status of the applicants? There is an unjust element in that...but do we immediately infer from that that the US and the UK are, in whole, bigoted and prejudiced countries that favour money and background? Does the Japanese dictatorial highschool system favour the uncritical labourer over others...does that make Japan into a dictatorship? Do we just generalize even more and say the whole world is a bloody miserable place?
For a fact, in croatia and in lebanon (since you have friends from there..you might actually ask them) a degree and a license are not an option, but necessities.
Your mythomaniacal them-us rhetoric is not so strange, it sounds so very familiar. And.....the line 'I have gay/black/'developing world' friends' does not absolve you from being bigoted. I don't think you really are racist...just a bit of a 'dumbass'.
shanec, i think the single most important thing a good architect can do is listen. listen to what your peers are telling you and learn from it. in this forum, you usually get people weighing in on both sides of any issue. not this one. learn from it.
next time you pass by a native american reservation remember who's "country" this is. The 'third world' exists right here in the 'first'. I may be dumb, or 'one of the people you're talking about', but I'm definitely not blind.
I'll put forth that the prevailing discourse being promoted here is Institutional racism: racial prejudice supported by institutional power and authority used to the advantage of one race over others.
"I've put myself in a position to effect at least some degree of change, and I'll continue to do so"
"so, what are you going to do to change this situation?"
"Call these folks out when they apply to work with me."
wait I've got one better:
LOOKING FOR
a QUALIFIED, TALENTED individual with all the $$$ (or not) and connections (or not) in the world from teaching, winning awards, and practicing here in the states
NEED NOT APPLY
unqualified, developing-country aristocrat-'architects' who are using their $$$, connections, and the lack of checks and balences in their own countries to make a name for themselves here. (read: mid-east/africa/eastern europe/south america/others...)
man, authority and power goes a long way. I think I'll go to my room now.
dioscuri/celler door whore-
Umm... it is cheating if you re-word what I say to fit your stereotype of who you want to believe I am.
What a load.
Deduct 10 points, each of you.
E-
Go lecture somebody else...
The issue of the charlaten/dilettante is a real and troubling one, especially in schools these days (or at least the one I went to).
HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I BE?!?! THE ISSUE IS UNQUALIFIED DILETTANTES IN OUR PROFESSION RAKING IN POSITIONS AND AWARDS...
Watching you guys LITERALLY put words in my mouth is sickening... do you REALLY need to have someone to lash out at THAT BAD that you'll actually CHANGE what they wrote and hit them over the head with it? What LOSERS!
There is no "apology" for making the connection between the several of these people that I have met and the fact that nearly all have come from what I'll call 'third world aristocracy' (rich people in poor countries).
I am amazed that nobody has the balls to talk about this here, it is a discussion I've had numerous times with friends from work and school... who obviously have the balls to actually acknowledge something that might be uncomfortable or politically sensitive.
Damn. I'm outie.
obviously, you aren't being clear enough because no one is buying your crap.
everyone out my country is closed
e put down your frankfurt school critical theory bullshit. Just becauase you call Shanec a rascist doesn't make him one. Your attempt to derail his argument based on the pretension that he is a rascist is childish and show a shallow intellect. This race tatics of the frankfurt school replace proper discourse with a lord of the flies gang mentality where truth = consensus.
its a bunch of bullshit.
Furthermore you may have missed the important aspects of Shanecs point becuase you already had your mind made up about what he was going to say. That's pretty closeminded for someone supposedly so embracing of other ways of life.
This is some forum where an individual who may hold a particular opinion us pretty much shut up and mocked, instead of being listened too. I expect more from people who call themselves creative.
dil·et·tante Audio pronunciation of "dilettante" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl-tänt, dl-tänt, -tänt, -tnt, -tnt)
n. pl. dil·et·tantes, also dil·et·tan·ti (-tänt, -tn-)
1. A dabbler in an art or a field of knowledge. See Synonyms at amateur.
2. A lover of the fine arts; a connoisseur.
adj.
Superficial; amateurish.
******ESTUDIO TEDDY CRUZ*****
Awards
2002 AIA San Diego Chapter, Overall Best Design, Corridors on Imperial Low Income Housing, San Diego, California
2002 AIA San Diego Chapter, Best Unbuilt Project, Corridors on Imperial Low Income Housing, San Diego, California
2001 PA Award, Architecture Magazine, San Ysidro affordable Housing Project
2001 Architectural League of New York, Young Architects Forum Award
2001 AIA San Diego Chapter, Merit Award for Outstanding Contribution in Design, American Institute of Architects, San Diego Chapter, Rubalcaba-Klink Residence
1994 Honor Award American Institute of Architects, San Diego Chapter, Las Gradas Residence, Tijuana Mexico
1991 Rome Prize in Architecture, American Academy in Rome, Italy
Publications and Exhibitions
2002 City Limits, Young Architects 3, The Architectural League of New York, Princeton Architectural Press
2001 Praxis, Journal of Writing and Building, Issue 3: Housing Tactics
2001 Young Architects Forum Exhibition, Architectural League of New York, Urban Center, New York City
2001 "Casa Familiar, Living Rooms at the Border†Architecture Magazine, PA awards Issue
2001 Drawings by Architects, Flux Gallery, San Diego, California
2000 "Border Walls, Border Cities and the Double Headed Trojan Horse of Tijuana†Thresholds, MIT Journal of the School of Architecture, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2000 Ann Jarmush, "Imagine: Architect teams present visions of housing for a growing San Diego,†The San Diego Union Tribune, Jan 2.
1999 Guest Editor, Architecture of the Borderlands, Architectural Design, Fall Issue, London, England
1998 From the Center, SCI-Arc Faculty Process, Monacelli Press, New York
*********************
does that list of publications, exhibition and awards sound like the work or a "dabbler" or "amatuer"? if these well-respected practitioners are your definition of dilettante, i think it's you that needs to go back to school, not them.
oooOOOO
Links about frankfurt school:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory
I just went to a Teddy Cruz lecture and he is highly inspiring. I really have no clue why you would even care about how someone gets to where they are...but I would think that merely focusing on your own work and creating relationships would be the best way to grow yourself.
I have been published as a graphic designer in many books and magazines and local rags...doesnt make the work I do any easier...actually for me it ups the anty because now people have expectations.
I am white, anglo saxon...and Teddy happily gave me his phone number, email, and we shared stories of experiences in guatemala and mexico (two countries I absolutely love) and I was very inspired...Race never came up...it is a non issue...social issues are much more pressing and transcend race in most contemporary scenarios.
Shed any jealousy our discontent and just focus on your work...its the only way to push yourself...making up untrue scenarios vie heresay on who or how someone got to where they are is just silly...and disruptive to your own growth.
now go create and be your own best ambasador for your work...there is no other way.
shanec, i am sure when adolph and his buddies were sitting around the beer halls, their "discussions" sounded reasonable, go ask phillip johnson how charming they sounded.
please tell me the difference between the "third world dilettantes" and our so called qualified "non third world dilettantes"? do you think a license is what separates them? are those wealthy american architects doing anything to help my cause? i think we need to get rid of licensing altogether, open the profession up to everyone with a degree, get the attorneys out of my profession...and let the world burn, burn, burn baby!!!
actually edwin lutyens future mother in law (who was the widow of a baron) didn't want her daughter to marry an architect. not enough prestige you see. to rooted in the trades. lutyens was pretty talented fellow and oh so cheeky.
cheeky like a monkey
i don't think most archinecters realize or are aware of what you speak of, including myself. call me naive or blind, but give us specifics rather than facetious anecdotes, 'Meanwhile daddy own's 9 maquilladoras in tijuana, or is the godfather of the romanian mob...'. that would make this a more enlightening discussion than a back and forth rant. as for your teddy cruz link, what are you trying to say with that? do you know something about them that we don't? please share.
there is no romanian mob.
there is eventually a russian mob (further east).
romania is not part of the third world.
we also do need a license and a degree here. even the sons of 'the godfather'. though daddy's son won't ever bother to study arch.
yes, the bribe is working here (always pays off) and some regulations are more fluid for some of us(not in constructions), projects are handeld to relatives/friends.
that's why we are a 'developing country'. but we also have inspectors who do their job, strict construction regulations. it really ain't as if the sky was the limit.
i also believe that there are daddy's sons everywhere, and money and politics always light de way.
it's not the way i'ld like it to be, but then again, i couldn't chose my birthplace neither.
shanec, i think i understand what u mean. only it's not that dramatic (i refer to my country).also, a regular citizen (like i am) won't ever have the money to go to america, except maybe as a tourist...
for extra info about how arch school in romania is, check my blog
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.