Let us say I have a 10 story office tower with very rigid column grid design. Now I want to pull out a column in the first floor to open up the entrance, can I do it? Will the surrounding columns around that one become much bigger?
If I use Flat Plate for all the slab, do engineer require to use post and beam structure for the second floor ceiling around that pull-out-column?
lota variables here. what spacing, as tahobo said- also size of columns, const. type, beam/girder size. ya got some calculatin to do. get those structure notes and books out with all these variables, or just find a good strl engineer....
I am thinking of using two way flat plate/flat slab for floor. The sapcing is around 20'x15'. It will be reinforce cast-in-place concrete structure system.
Why not just call an engineer as you will need one anyways to modify the building? Its possible, just shore it up, add a beam large enough to span two bays and make sure the columns on either side of the larger bay can support their new loads.
I can have two options:
1. have a structure grid, but need to take one column out in the ground floor.
2. have variable length structure grid. No need to take any column out.
Why not pull the offending column out and see if there is any resultant sag. If not you are good to go. If so you can either put the column back or beef up the beam. This way you don't have to pay for a structural engineer. They only play with numbers anyway. What they say is never real world.
jlx is the new per. if you build a boat out of 3d honeycomb and pull out one of the pieces of the honeycomb, it doesn't matter because it's two-dimensional.
The way you have frazed your question, raises more questions than can be answered without additional information.
1. Are you talking about a new building. If you are, the answer is more than likely, yes. You can open up the column spacing at your entry. If you plan and design your structural bay to provide for it.
2. If this is a renovation. Then you need to answer and provide more info. on the existing structural conditions. Its more likly not a good idea to remove an existing column, in a 10 story building. Unless cost is no problem.
this entire topic is scary, can you tell me where this project is being built? because i want to be about 4,000 miles min. away from it...
jlx, are you a student or licensed architect? the reason i ask is that based on your initial post, i am little concerned as to the nature of this project, i mean is this to be realized or is this conceptual?
where is your structural engineer?
i think if this project is real your client might want the security of knowing you don't plan on placing the safety of his tennants on the advice gained from a chat group, and that you relied on someone that has very, very, very good insurance and skills...
The actual response would be that yes you could do it. You need to place a shear wall and each of the two floors above the removed column and tension columns supporting the cantilever. You also better make fucking sure you get an engineer to stamp those drawings.
For those who put their efforts and knowledge in the keyboard, you have my appreciation.
The answer should be simple and 'yes'. the reason I asked here is trying to get more insides and prepare me when this kind of design issue comes to me. I don't know why some people begin to be picky on this topic and became crazy about it.
"this entire topic is scary, can you tell me where this project is being built? because i want to be about 4,000 miles min. away from it...
"when betadinesutures asked me this question, I begin to wonder where he from? How many buildings he designed and built? and How many he will build in next 5 years? If you don't know the solution, why not just shut up and listen to others. If I tell you Rem designed a super risky highrise building for Beijing CCTV in Beijing in which anti-earthquake magnitude need to be 7 minimum, what will you say to him? Oh, I am sure you will kiss his ass and disappear.
hey, i think your question is scary, sometimes
architects tend to place safety behind design,
cost is an anoying thing because my desire is more important, desire( like a spoiled kid) , dont take it personally, it looks like a you were testing people, but always ask an engineer,
one thing is a column in a house and another one is a column in the first floor of a 10 story building; depend of the place (earthquake prone ),
anyway is good to ask and learn
hey, i think your question is scary, sometimes
architects tend to place safety behind design,
cost is an anoying thing because my desire is more important, desire( like a spoiled kid) , dont take it personally, it looks like a you were testing people, but always ask an engineer,
one thing is a column in a house and another one is a column in the first floor of a 10 story building; depend of the place (earthquake prone ),
anyway is good to ask and learn
first, if REM came here to find out what is appropriate as a structural solution, i would have the same issues and would be no less scared. second, my concerns and questions are just as valid as anyone else's. third, the one thing i have learned, and not from this thread, is that just about anything can be done in a structural frame, so long as your pockets are deep and your willingness to think creatively is strong. Lastly, if and when i do kiss Rem's ass it won't be for that project, it will be for others....So there!
If I can jump in and kill the thread for a moment - I think we can safely assume that when someone poses a question like this, they are obviously not a professional. Meaning they don't have the professional background or knowledge to actually perform what they are suggesting, even though they may be in architecture school or an intern. Thanks to special inspections and building codes we are safe from "scary Archinecters". Most people asking questions like this are asking for their own personal interest and knowledge. So why come down on them as if what they're asking was really going to be built? You all know that if this was a real project with JLX in the jumpseat he would already have a PE on board and wouldn't be asking such a basic question, or his employers already do and he's just trying to learn something on his own.
If I have a struc. Engineer to ask, where is your chance to speak? Did I say this structure system is for the real or nonreal? How about a competition?
Everyone know it is not safe to pull out a column, but in many times, you don't have luxury to give a very nice grid system for a building. An idea might be bad, but I get to know if it is really bad? if so, I won't use it anymore. That is the easiest part of the architecture practice, isn't it?
I won't check your other posts to see if you are female or male. But it looks you have some year experience already, if your arch. design skill and the project you finished didn't match your experience, you should be careful. Because you don't have a right personality or instincts to do Arch.
I got your points. Thanks. I like your "LEAVE COLUMN ALONE=$".
As to your stamp fees, you are too late to tell me. My friend in China hired Rem to design a public building, he hired Cecil again for the columns stuff. Again, there are some structure challenge, but hey, it is Cecil. He inspired Rem to do A REAL BUILDING in a very shaky way.
Cecil got the huge money, and because of that, he got an new commssion from my colleague. Rem got his idea going through all the Bureaus and criticism to get his proposals approved.
jlx, clearly you are more skilled and talented than myself. where i would consult with a structural engineer, you would consult with chat forum - i hope no one takes offense - where i would consult with a civil engineer, you would consult with chat forum, where i would consult with a curtain wall manufacturer or window cleaning manufacturer, you would consult with a chat forum, where i would consult a mechanical engineer, you would consult with a chat forum, where i would consult with a concrete contractor or cast in place manufacturer, you would consult with a chat forum. shoot, i had no idea i was doing it all wrong, i am going back to me Alma Who-Gives-A-Matter, and ask for my money back.
I know Louis Kahn, Lou Kahn was a friend of mine, and sir, you are no Paul Rudolph.
Thank you, I will be appearing at Chuckles in Manhattan on friday, please tell the pretty lady at the door i sent you, and you might get a free drink from me.
I think I made a mistake to ask such a question here. Obviously, someone just take this forum as a area for joking, and other less architcture related topic discussion. I will end up this thread and no comments anymore. I thanks for some people's good suggestion and inputs.
To betadinesutures:
You are very good. You even can make a good living like you can goto Chuckles. Damn, I am so shamed of myself.
But if you say one word again, I mean one word in this thread, I will begin to check on you. If I do so, I am pretty sure you will have different feeling as of today.
No offense JLX, but with the amount of information you posted you can't expect much of an answer. Like you and others have pointed out, this is a forum. What do you really expect from a forum?
But a good project to look at would be the MIT library addition by Schwartz/Silver:
Its not the best image (maybe if you ask someone at MIT nicely they'll take a snap shot for you) but it gets the point accross on how you can skillfully and tectonically manipulate a column grid...
you get all that beta? i think from jlx speak that translates roughly to: "you better watch yo back sucka."
personally, i'm too busy watching the relative prices of site-cast concrete and bronze metal panels to watch anything else, including my back. gotta make sure that next project has not only the correct number of columns (minus one), but also the proper material.
jlx, i wasn't kidding when i compared you to per corell. you are both obviously non-native english speakers, you both rant on this website about the most nonsensical things, and you both never learn. when people flame you for posting a stupid question, it's not because we like to be mean (at least not entirely), it's because it's a stupid question.
if you are at a point in your development as an architect that you feel comfortable entering competitions, you should know the answer to this question, or at least know where to look to find a definitive answer. coming to a forum to ask such a rudimentary structures question is ridiculous. unlike pixelwhore, i do mean offense; stop acting like the class clown if you don't want to be treated like it.
i guess i should be afraid of the Secret Police coming to my door? is that what would be classified as a terroristic threat? what? i can't speak freely or else this purveyor of architectural greatness will have me thrown in the gulag?
check the link and tell me he/she reminds you of anyone, i'll give one guess.
Looking at all your posts, what I found is trouble of your office life, your complaints about other people... Nothing really related to the architecture Practice. You came here just for rest and kidding. By the way, you either are very smart so you have so many time kidding here or you are very stupid so you have too much time to kill. You obviously is not the first one.
If you can't make a living in Arch, why not switch to other profession? Like Boxer--- you like to fight. or a bookkeeper? you still keep your books right?
Joed: I was trying to help in another thread. You are just another rat jumping around.
"is it just me, or do plans 5 and 8 look like they are renderings of the same building at different points in design development? seriously, they are formally identical. i'm surprised nobody's pointed this out yet"
I believe this comments told how stupid and naive you are.
I believe I also helped you to wash your head.
i don't think that saying these renderings look like the same building at different points in design development is naive and stupid. but i fear i may be wasting my time at this point, as was the case with per.
jlx - c'mon! At first i didn't think you'd get anywhere with this thread and I thought you were kidding. I am surprised you got as many legimate responses as you did. I welcome any discussion about architecture and am very open minded about what these posts may be, but really...
Nobody's "stupid" and there still are no "dumb questions" but your questions in your post are such that architects run into all the time and should be discussed amongst others in your design team, not web surfers who don't know anything about what you are doing.
You got your answer. I will reiterate. YES and NO. A deservingly ambiguous answer.
What does that tell you about the nature of your question? perhaps newstreamlinedmodel said it best with "sure, go ahead. If anyone asks just tell them we said it was cool."
Oh, and people aren't racist cause your English isn't perfect.
hmmm... I'd have to go with joed on those two images posted above. they do appear as if they could be the same building in different stages of development. formally they appear to be pretty damn similar. granted this has nothing to do with theoretical underpinnings, but thats not what we're talking about here.
Structure: can I pull out a colun?
Let us say I have a 10 story office tower with very rigid column grid design. Now I want to pull out a column in the first floor to open up the entrance, can I do it? Will the surrounding columns around that one become much bigger?
If I use Flat Plate for all the slab, do engineer require to use post and beam structure for the second floor ceiling around that pull-out-column?
what is your spacing?
lota variables here. what spacing, as tahobo said- also size of columns, const. type, beam/girder size. ya got some calculatin to do. get those structure notes and books out with all these variables, or just find a good strl engineer....
I am thinking of using two way flat plate/flat slab for floor. The sapcing is around 20'x15'. It will be reinforce cast-in-place concrete structure system.
sure, go ahead. If anyone asks just tell them we said it was cool.
Why not just call an engineer as you will need one anyways to modify the building? Its possible, just shore it up, add a beam large enough to span two bays and make sure the columns on either side of the larger bay can support their new loads.
yes, anything is possible given your budget is infinite. call your engineer... unless its a school project, then it doesn't really matter.
you might also check with historic preservation in your area. they might get real fussy with you for combining bays, if this is an older building.
i would not just pull out my colon without consulting my m.d.
LEAVE COLUMN ALONE=$
TAKE COLUMN OUT AND USE A TRANSFER BEAM=$$$$$$$$$$$$$
=WORK AROUND COLUMN. YOUR ENGINEEER WILL LIKE YOU MUCH BETTER
indeed suture. love the grid jlx.
I can have two options:
1. have a structure grid, but need to take one column out in the ground floor.
2. have variable length structure grid. No need to take any column out.
Will you say no. 2 solution save a lot of money?
Two words - sloping columns
Why not pull the offending column out and see if there is any resultant sag. If not you are good to go. If so you can either put the column back or beef up the beam. This way you don't have to pay for a structural engineer. They only play with numbers anyway. What they say is never real world.
jlx is the new per. if you build a boat out of 3d honeycomb and pull out one of the pieces of the honeycomb, it doesn't matter because it's two-dimensional.
hahaha... that just made my evening joed.
The way you have frazed your question, raises more questions than can be answered without additional information.
1. Are you talking about a new building. If you are, the answer is more than likely, yes. You can open up the column spacing at your entry. If you plan and design your structural bay to provide for it.
2. If this is a renovation. Then you need to answer and provide more info. on the existing structural conditions. Its more likly not a good idea to remove an existing column, in a 10 story building. Unless cost is no problem.
this entire topic is scary, can you tell me where this project is being built? because i want to be about 4,000 miles min. away from it...
jlx, are you a student or licensed architect? the reason i ask is that based on your initial post, i am little concerned as to the nature of this project, i mean is this to be realized or is this conceptual?
where is your structural engineer?
i think if this project is real your client might want the security of knowing you don't plan on placing the safety of his tennants on the advice gained from a chat group, and that you relied on someone that has very, very, very good insurance and skills...
but hey, that's just me.
The actual response would be that yes you could do it. You need to place a shear wall and each of the two floors above the removed column and tension columns supporting the cantilever. You also better make fucking sure you get an engineer to stamp those drawings.
For those who put their efforts and knowledge in the keyboard, you have my appreciation.
The answer should be simple and 'yes'. the reason I asked here is trying to get more insides and prepare me when this kind of design issue comes to me. I don't know why some people begin to be picky on this topic and became crazy about it.
"this entire topic is scary, can you tell me where this project is being built? because i want to be about 4,000 miles min. away from it...
"when betadinesutures asked me this question, I begin to wonder where he from? How many buildings he designed and built? and How many he will build in next 5 years? If you don't know the solution, why not just shut up and listen to others. If I tell you Rem designed a super risky highrise building for Beijing CCTV in Beijing in which anti-earthquake magnitude need to be 7 minimum, what will you say to him? Oh, I am sure you will kiss his ass and disappear.
hey, i think your question is scary, sometimes
architects tend to place safety behind design,
cost is an anoying thing because my desire is more important, desire( like a spoiled kid) , dont take it personally, it looks like a you were testing people, but always ask an engineer,
one thing is a column in a house and another one is a column in the first floor of a 10 story building; depend of the place (earthquake prone ),
anyway is good to ask and learn
hey, i think your question is scary, sometimes
architects tend to place safety behind design,
cost is an anoying thing because my desire is more important, desire( like a spoiled kid) , dont take it personally, it looks like a you were testing people, but always ask an engineer,
one thing is a column in a house and another one is a column in the first floor of a 10 story building; depend of the place (earthquake prone ),
anyway is good to ask and learn
it's the client's colun. so, no prob. but their hmo may refuse to pay.
Rem didn't design the structural system for the CCTV project... thats where Cecil Balmond steps in.
article in the Guardian
first, if REM came here to find out what is appropriate as a structural solution, i would have the same issues and would be no less scared. second, my concerns and questions are just as valid as anyone else's. third, the one thing i have learned, and not from this thread, is that just about anything can be done in a structural frame, so long as your pockets are deep and your willingness to think creatively is strong. Lastly, if and when i do kiss Rem's ass it won't be for that project, it will be for others....So there!
If I can jump in and kill the thread for a moment - I think we can safely assume that when someone poses a question like this, they are obviously not a professional. Meaning they don't have the professional background or knowledge to actually perform what they are suggesting, even though they may be in architecture school or an intern. Thanks to special inspections and building codes we are safe from "scary Archinecters". Most people asking questions like this are asking for their own personal interest and knowledge. So why come down on them as if what they're asking was really going to be built? You all know that if this was a real project with JLX in the jumpseat he would already have a PE on board and wouldn't be asking such a basic question, or his employers already do and he's just trying to learn something on his own.
Play nice!
mum, you have to look at some of jlx's previous posts to understand this may not be a school project example;
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=13243_0_42_0_C
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=13201_0_42_0_C
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=13103_0_42_0_C
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=13006_0_42_0_C
these suggest more than a fictional or hypothetical situation.
"what is the cost as to a square footage [of site-cast concrete] in your area? Will it charge more than a bronze metal panel?" - jlx
super classic archinect moment.
and yeah, mum... this guy's got a history. encourage him at your own peril.
betadinesutures:
If I have a struc. Engineer to ask, where is your chance to speak? Did I say this structure system is for the real or nonreal? How about a competition?
Everyone know it is not safe to pull out a column, but in many times, you don't have luxury to give a very nice grid system for a building. An idea might be bad, but I get to know if it is really bad? if so, I won't use it anymore. That is the easiest part of the architecture practice, isn't it?
I won't check your other posts to see if you are female or male. But it looks you have some year experience already, if your arch. design skill and the project you finished didn't match your experience, you should be careful. Because you don't have a right personality or instincts to do Arch.
IF YOU PAY ME ENOUGH I WILL STAMP YOUR STRUCTURAL DRAWINGS! 10% UPCHARGE FOR EVERY COLUMN YOU TAKE OUT. TAKE OUT AS MANY AS YOU WOULD LIKE.
sature:
I got your points. Thanks. I like your "LEAVE COLUMN ALONE=$".
As to your stamp fees, you are too late to tell me. My friend in China hired Rem to design a public building, he hired Cecil again for the columns stuff. Again, there are some structure challenge, but hey, it is Cecil. He inspired Rem to do A REAL BUILDING in a very shaky way.
Cecil got the huge money, and because of that, he got an new commssion from my colleague. Rem got his idea going through all the Bureaus and criticism to get his proposals approved.
jlx, clearly you are more skilled and talented than myself. where i would consult with a structural engineer, you would consult with chat forum - i hope no one takes offense - where i would consult with a civil engineer, you would consult with chat forum, where i would consult with a curtain wall manufacturer or window cleaning manufacturer, you would consult with a chat forum, where i would consult a mechanical engineer, you would consult with a chat forum, where i would consult with a concrete contractor or cast in place manufacturer, you would consult with a chat forum. shoot, i had no idea i was doing it all wrong, i am going back to me Alma Who-Gives-A-Matter, and ask for my money back.
I know Louis Kahn, Lou Kahn was a friend of mine, and sir, you are no Paul Rudolph.
Thank you, I will be appearing at Chuckles in Manhattan on friday, please tell the pretty lady at the door i sent you, and you might get a free drink from me.
To all the friends in this forum:
I think I made a mistake to ask such a question here. Obviously, someone just take this forum as a area for joking, and other less architcture related topic discussion. I will end up this thread and no comments anymore. I thanks for some people's good suggestion and inputs.
To betadinesutures:
You are very good. You even can make a good living like you can goto Chuckles. Damn, I am so shamed of myself.
But if you say one word again, I mean one word in this thread, I will begin to check on you. If I do so, I am pretty sure you will have different feeling as of today.
No offense JLX, but with the amount of information you posted you can't expect much of an answer. Like you and others have pointed out, this is a forum. What do you really expect from a forum?
But a good project to look at would be the MIT library addition by Schwartz/Silver:
Its not the best image (maybe if you ask someone at MIT nicely they'll take a snap shot for you) but it gets the point accross on how you can skillfully and tectonically manipulate a column grid...
you get all that beta? i think from jlx speak that translates roughly to: "you better watch yo back sucka."
personally, i'm too busy watching the relative prices of site-cast concrete and bronze metal panels to watch anything else, including my back. gotta make sure that next project has not only the correct number of columns (minus one), but also the proper material.
jlx, i wasn't kidding when i compared you to per corell. you are both obviously non-native english speakers, you both rant on this website about the most nonsensical things, and you both never learn. when people flame you for posting a stupid question, it's not because we like to be mean (at least not entirely), it's because it's a stupid question.
if you are at a point in your development as an architect that you feel comfortable entering competitions, you should know the answer to this question, or at least know where to look to find a definitive answer. coming to a forum to ask such a rudimentary structures question is ridiculous. unlike pixelwhore, i do mean offense; stop acting like the class clown if you don't want to be treated like it.
you know, I can stop being nice... Per almost made me do it.
Thanks, guys, for the heads up. YIKES!! I have to admit I haven't been trolling as much as I used to.
i guess i should be afraid of the Secret Police coming to my door? is that what would be classified as a terroristic threat? what? i can't speak freely or else this purveyor of architectural greatness will have me thrown in the gulag?
check the link and tell me he/she reminds you of anyone, i'll give one guess.
All the other people on this forum:
Both betad. and joed are two lossy rats. Friends, don't let them ruin this forum.
betadinesutures:
You are low and unbelievable!
Here is the link you tried to post:
http://powercadd.designcommunity.com/search.php?mode=results
Looking at all your posts, what I found is trouble of your office life, your complaints about other people... Nothing really related to the architecture Practice. You came here just for rest and kidding. By the way, you either are very smart so you have so many time kidding here or you are very stupid so you have too much time to kill. You obviously is not the first one.
If you can't make a living in Arch, why not switch to other profession? Like Boxer--- you like to fight. or a bookkeeper? you still keep your books right?
Joed: I was trying to help in another thread. You are just another rat jumping around.
"is it just me, or do plans 5 and 8 look like they are renderings of the same building at different points in design development? seriously, they are formally identical. i'm surprised nobody's pointed this out yet"
I believe this comments told how stupid and naive you are.
I believe I also helped you to wash your head.
You are also a racist, aren't you?
if disliking abrasive morons is racist
and, just for the record:
i don't think that saying these renderings look like the same building at different points in design development is naive and stupid. but i fear i may be wasting my time at this point, as was the case with per.
jlx - c'mon! At first i didn't think you'd get anywhere with this thread and I thought you were kidding. I am surprised you got as many legimate responses as you did. I welcome any discussion about architecture and am very open minded about what these posts may be, but really...
Nobody's "stupid" and there still are no "dumb questions" but your questions in your post are such that architects run into all the time and should be discussed amongst others in your design team, not web surfers who don't know anything about what you are doing.
You got your answer. I will reiterate. YES and NO. A deservingly ambiguous answer.
What does that tell you about the nature of your question? perhaps newstreamlinedmodel said it best with "sure, go ahead. If anyone asks just tell them we said it was cool."
Oh, and people aren't racist cause your English isn't perfect.
newstreamlinedmodel, i think you should bill the kid for your services.
yes, engineering services are expensive. jlx is running up quite a bill here.
hmmm... I'd have to go with joed on those two images posted above. they do appear as if they could be the same building in different stages of development. formally they appear to be pretty damn similar. granted this has nothing to do with theoretical underpinnings, but thats not what we're talking about here.
jlx, you take that back! i will hold my breath until you apologize.
beta,
how is your feeling as of today? Do you feel ashamed? You lossy rat!
"Oh, and people aren't racist cause your English isn't perfect."
RACISTTTTTTT
Ah, but in comparison I really miss the moments when Per was getting a bit "Faustean", going on about the gates of hell, paradise on earth and such.
It's "lousy rat" damn it "lousy rat" and yes I don't feel like having oranges today, thank you.
Oh, and by the by, I am still holding my breath, damn I'm blue.
blue rats bearing oranges. this is too much. :)
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