Mumbai's in India, isn't it? who's building this sort of stuff there??? I don't mean to sound demeaning, it's just a little surprising to see this sort of work coming out of india...
yea, it is a bit strange to see such work come out from India, but truth is that there is a lot of interesting work being done, but does not get global exposure.
Being from India and now in the US, i can safely proclaim that it is more difficult to do innovative stuff in the US than in India - there are many enterpreneurs that are willing to take design risks and in many cases, the by-laws like ADA are not fully in place, which result in more fun stuff being built.
Of course when it comes to taste, its a different story, but yes, things are changing fast.
I would'nt agree more....there are a lot of small design firms in Mumbai that do a lot of interesting stuff...and don't care about being published in the media...
The big architectural stuff goes to a handful of corporate firms that produce crapshitecture....its mostly political of course...
This Chris Lee chap seems to be doing some interesting work....I guess, if you have the political savvy and street smarts, you could build stuff in India....
Again...you need to have a lot of political contacts with people in powerful positions to get your stuff through...
Chris Lee in partnership with architect Kapil Gupta based in Mumbai whose firm, contemporary urban,have designed and are executing the project being discussed here. They are doing a lot of interesting projects and there are a lot many young small firms in my city, mumbai, previously known as Bombay (INDIA) who are trying to experiment, bring about some change and make a difference to the architectural scenario here.
it's interesting to see work like that juxtaposed with the disaffected slave labor required to create it. the looks on the faces of the workers is priceless, they look as though they were just kidnapped.
I know Dake is a structural engineer..but the fact that he does not accept architects is not true...I know people with architecture degrees who have worked / interned with him
there is a lot of great work in india. the construction process there is extremely labor intensive, so i don't see any reason why a project like this couldn't be built there, especially if the materials (like concrete) aren't too expensive.
its all about attitudes and sensibilities..
most people in India are mostly traditional and conservative...and that percolates down to everything that they do...so getting clients to pay for contemporary stuff is difficult. Most designers like to fuse traditional ethnic sensibilities with modern materials and elements of style....
but things seem to be changing...with this VM store, it'll become a race to be more "trendy".....hopefully it sparks off something good
Add to that list Morphogenesis Architecture Studio, run by Manit and Sonali Rastogi. Does anyone have links to websites of contemporary Indian Architects?
interesting to me with regard to this store (and its potential effects in bombay) is that it seems to be a shift away from the "orthagonal" modernism that was imported by kahn and corbu. some of doshi's later work (tejal house or the husain-doshi gufa) seem to imply this also, though i don't think they were in mumbai. i don't know much about the liberal-conservative issue in mumbai...is it a conservative place? what forces are currently influencing designers their now (most of what i have read is probably 5 or 10 years behind)? i have to admit that much of the modern architecture in india, even the more amazing works by correa and doshi are somewhat conservative (and orthagonal). i always assumed that this was due to the economic environment, which is why i brought up the notion of labor intensity; that idea seems to imply that my understanding of modern architecture in india was somewhat thin and that this project represents another paradigm. i don't know anything at all about the younger generation of architects in south asia; only the established offices. i've really got to get to india.
this store is the first example of 'non-orthagonal' work I've seen in Mumbai...well...the Doshi-Hussain gufa (art gallery) in Ahmedabad is non-orthagonal and highly organic...
Doshi and Correa have become dinosaurs and have lost most of their footing in the market....
Mumbai,though ethno-urban, has not yet come of age as far as contemporary architecture goes...and is being dominated by steel and glass imitations of western architecture without any real context or authenticity....
The legacy set forth by Corbu and Kahn is completely lost...though I must say that it never took root in Mumbai really....and the city has no real architectural character...
The place is still conservative if looked at from an American standpoint...but American-ism flourishes...so its just a matter of time till it starts being neo-american and gets its own strip malls and high-rise downtowns...
I must mention that I know Sameep Padora and have great respect for him...he is a good designer running a small office in downtown Mumbai...
I ahd not seen his work, having been out of India for the last four years.....and am glad to see he is doing some work that is unusual for India.....but I am critical of the fact that it does not respond to its context...
its hip and cool with its folding planes and blob-tecture....but I can tell you with 100% certainty that not one single person in all of Mumbai would understand it or identify with it...
a fairly open-ended question but can you point me to where i can find info on who is who in mumbai's architectural scene?
while mumbai might not be ready for the likes of greg lynn or neil denari, i would rather see them imitated than most of the crap that's going on in shanghai, which is probably the potential alternative if no one is investigating what kind of architecture mumbai can conceive of on its own.
i think we were talking about 'interesting' work going on in mumbai, and on that page i would definately say that Greg lynn and Denari rip-offs (if you want to call them that) are better than tons of concrete being wasted in Hafeez Contractor shitpiles.
Whats 'good' or 'bad' is another discussion, albeit a more subjective one. but again, this was about what is interesting design.
Also,
definition of Contemporary
con·tem·po·rar·y (kən-tĕm'pə-rĕr'ē) pronunciation
adj.
1. Belonging to the same period of time: a fact documented by two contemporary sources.
2. Of about the same age.
3. Current; modern: contemporary trends in design.
the number of young guns in the Mumbai architectural scene is small, but slowly and surely making a difference. Unfortunately, few of the firms here doing interesting work really sell themselves internationally. Most of these guys have degrees from abroad (mostly the US, some from the UK) and have come back here to practice. While its still largely a conservative city with a faux-history fetish, Mumbai is probably the most forward-looking and international city in India. There is a place for those who want to take a strong design stance and build what they want and as they see fit to. The clients are there, they do exist. And they have the money and taste to fund good design.
If you want to know more about the local scene here, mail me and i'll give you a list of people and projects to look up. I'm sorry, but firm websites are few.
minimal, i think your thoughts on the contextuality and appropriateness are a little stilted and immature. You seem to be taking VM mumbai at face value while condemning it for its lack of contextual "rootedness". it's a messy debate we can get into, but let me circumvent that by saying that plenty of time and thought has gone and continues to go into the idea of a "Mumbai-driven architecture". We obviously can't apply the yardstick of 1500 years of indian architectural history to a city like this, nor can we apply the lessons of Kahn, Corb and their lesser, local descendants. Mumbai's situation is unique, and deserves unique strategies. i'm know for a fact that people here understand that, and are working on it. Contrary to what you might believe, the formal moves of VM Mumbai don't imply an outright disregard for its place and time.
If perhaps you believe the project to be somewhat copycat, then i have just one thing to say. sameolddoctor is right, everyone has to start somewhere.
I would say that people like Kapil Gupta and Chris Lee are at the forefront of the wave of new architecture here. They're producing interesting work and bucking the grotesque PoMo (in name only) trend here. I have to side with sameolddoctor again,
"...i would definately say that Greg lynn and Denari rip-offs (if you want to call them that) are better than tons of concrete being wasted in Hafeez Contractor shitpiles."
TT ? ... well whatever ....... i've just seen the pictures and guess a lot of 'intellectual' interaction has already taken place .... it has always been usual for a new and innovative (if i must add) venture to face criticism in its initial stages but time proves many wrong (and stupid in this case) ..... closer to international design now, i believe back in mumbai some people are really doing great work ...... .. i guess one must try to understand how this design actually got executed on site in indian conditions, budget and with indian construction techniques before pouring out their attitude on to this page ....i see a lot to learn here ...... the workers actually must be proud Beta.D ... and seems like they're earning better than you ! ........ no wonder you look damn frustrated ....... i agree to TT .. to some extent ........... to cut the crap .. the interiors look excellent .... i can't wait to see the pictures of the completed / finished space ....... ..... and some one please put the ANIMAL back into school ...
I dont think minimal animal is totally incorrect. Though Mumbai doesnot have any strong architectural culture and it is a fast growing city with changing needs and the culture is a lot more wersternised here than elsewhere in India, there is no real effort put into developing projects which are unique to this city and which try to offer some tangible solutions to its problems nor is the context given too much importance. Now, in the case of VM which is a high end store, the design is not out of place (besides it is not a scratch build it is an interior remodelling project) but the younger generation of architects (me being one of them) need to do more than just make blobs and folded planes, they have to use their education to do more. I donot mean to generalise as I know that there are some architects, Kapil Gupta being one of them, are trying to make a difference and bring about change and yes, it has to start somewhere, but I simply wish there was a wider range (in the solutions) and different approaches visible in the projects being executed here. And I am extremely glad that the end to Hafeez era is near ( I hope!)
poly! are you Chris Lee? no one said that i did not think i was slave labor, so yeah it's possible they earn more than me. but tell me, how many times have you seen slave labor in photos such as these?
betadine, I am very uncomfortable with your use of the word slave labor. The labour that works on most sites in mumbai may not have a formal education but are skilled and quite reasonably trained (specially carpenters and stone masons, who tend to be from families who have been carpenters for generations and hence know their field better than most of us educated architects). They are also paid better (compared to the cost of living here etc) than you would expect. Thought you might be interested in knowing this, thats all.
Sure....we can all find dictionary definitions of various buzzwords and post them on this blog....if you want I can find the definitions of "Contextual" and "Sensitive" for you....Let me know..
But really, you make a good point about Hafeez Contractor's work....but even then, non-contextual, insensitive work which does not respond to the culture it is made for is not a good replacement for it....
I think what is required is a design sensibility that responds more to the Indian culture and is not just another rip-off....I'm sure Mr.Padora has seen "Gyroscopic Horizons" somewhere which has inspired his folded plane sofa....and that's ok....to each his own...
But when we talk about what is good and bad in architecture, I think we need to put it in context....Just as Corbu's Capitol Complex at Chandigarh, though a magnificent example of architecture, did not work, because no one except Nehru wanted it...(now its being converted into a monument)....the same way folded planes and blobs are not going to work in India...no matter how urban Mumbai gets..the common man still remains conservative and traditional.....it'll be a long time before they start responding to this kind of "contemporary" architecture....no matter what the definition says..
I am with all of you, in saying that this VM showroom is cool and exciting....and its really good to see such stuff being done in Mumbai....but realistically, even if this thing is built and even if Rem builds a Prada is Cuffe Parade in Mumbai, it'll still flop miserably in terms of good contextual sensitive design...
Just to add to this discussion, there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in B'lore and Gurgaon too. Its not just Bombay that seems to be leading the architectural Avante Garde.. if I may.
we are getting down to the basics here, i think -
can we, for a minute not think of context as physical context, but context that is programmatic, and brand-oriented???
of course if this work for done for a low-income housing project in the indian context our responses would be vitriolic - but for high end boutique store like this, is it not totally fine???
if you bring up the issue of context, all i am saying that you should think of program also as a contextual factor
I am thankful that at the very least you're acknowledging the fact that architecture and for that matter, all of design should be contextualised..and sure its a very basic issue...to think of architecture in terms of its context and not in a completely arbitrary notion....and when you think of 'context', it should be encompassing of everything that in any way influences the design response...may it be programme, brand, site.....etc etc
We have to think....does VM, as a brand, require folded planes as a design response or solution for its space....maybe it does..but most likely not.....like Swatch requires its store to be a particular way anywhere in the world...and when the designer comes up with a response that is so very 'like' something else in a context that is as far as removed from the applicable situation, is when this debate is sparked off...don't you agree ??
well lots to read again ..... i think we just might have drifted away from the 'correct' trajectory of our discussion ........ who bothers how much one's making every month ..... the design seems like a good deviation from the existing ideas (visible in the city) to a more international style .... i see a lot of details have been amazingly worked out ....... and as far as contextual concerns go, its useless to argue without undrstanding the design methodology ........... i appretiate different theoretical treatise being exchanged on this page and probably also the will to converse in a reasonably complex nature of language ...... but i wouldn't be interested in contributing to a debate, the complete facts of which are still unknown .... all that i am sure about is that the volume has been beautifully sculpted with a constant 'context' or concept in mind ..... and its bound to look awesome ...... there's definitely a fresh feel of space which would only benefit the brands .... context addresses i guess ...... and by the way i'm not C.Lee ...
the debate was never about wheter the damn thing looks good or not....it obviously does...and if you're not interested in contributing to this debate, then why are you posting on this thread ? ...
I don't think that context = concept...as you put it....go back to Basic Design 101....context influences design response...concept is the underlying idea that resides within the design response....
so animal ...congrats ..you have already driven everyone out from this page with your boring interests.... now all the best .... stay with you concpetual and contextual 'serious shit' ..... and speak loud >>>LOUD i mean ... there's no one to really listen to you anyways ...........
and thanks for the advice ...... go and help tsunami victims .... that's the most contexual work right now ......
by the way it was nice to see your reply ...... i was waiting for your comments since the first day .................... at least you understood the 'context' to get personal ........ ..... wanna step outside ....????
you should change your name to polygone...you stick to your blob-crap and brand-shit....and maybe someday, somehow you can really build something...which is what architects do...the rest is all bullshit...
you can go one forever with your esoteric nonsense...you can study linguistics forever until you become a cunning linguist yourself....
lets step outside where I can teach you a couple of things about architecture....or maybe archi-torture...
I see no point in the incessant philosophy that most architects extol in today's world...
Greg Lynn can wax lyrical about his blobs...or Neil Denari can fold planes till kingdom come....but in the end, they're not building anything....
Have you ever heard foster or piano talk philosophy ?? they find inspiration in context and nature...not in esoteric relationships between language and tectonics....nor in "brand"..
And yes, poly...I would like to help the Tsunami victims and I am...at least it would account for something...you can remain on your high horse and ride into your linguistic sunset..
hi animal ... i would try to put forward my opinion (this time it'll be helpful to you) .... and i'll try to be as strightforward as possible ... in as simple a language as possible ...... let's assume that you do have an iota of intellect that you project you have .... then you must be one of those people who have understood just one of the many aspects of architecture ... .in your case it's 'context' ..... same old is right ... are you a kid ..... are you like a first semester student or something ..... always trying to debate with one 'single' frame of mind you have because it seems that its the only thing you can talk about ...... or i guess the recent text you read must have included these concepts which must have been 'new' for you and so you wanna fart around with your only intelligent facet ....... you know if you had read corbusier last month you would have got stuck with modularity of these post modular design .... and if you had read tshumi explaining his la villete you would have actually gone anti-contextual ......must have said .. there's no context .. there's no architecture ......... you know what's the problem buddy ... people like you don't have any opinions of you own ...... you haven't yet developed the ability to put forward a prsonal judjement ..... the inability to develop a personal, unique 'philosophy' ......... and the you need some space to speak in all the discussions .... so your singular concept becomes a chair that you stick to your butt and carry it everywhere you go .... so you can atleast sit and participate in every debate........... and no matter what the hell others want to contribute you'll continue to deviate the flow towards your 'contextual' themes ...... the only thing sensible that you can speak of ...... give yourself a break ...... and others too .....
i am just trying to save you .... butthead
you need help !
lets give TT a reply ... rather .... i would get back with my opinion of a building in mumbai or india rather ....
I will not hold the fact that you don't have the ability of holding a debate if you're not getting headway against you...
you and all like you...who think that someone thinking practically is a danger to your kind, should really get out there into the profession and try your "philosophies" out...and see if they hold any water with anyone outside this forum or other places similar to these...
Architecture is all about building...and anyone who says anything to the contrary just does not know enough yet...Sure..we can all go nuts over all the "theory" and "philosophy" floating around out there and try to validate what we whimsically want to put out, but that does not change the fact that if it does not get built, it can no longer be called architecture...
The essential difference between a practitioner and a theorist is exactly like the difference between a building and a project that's not realised...even Thom Mayne has readily admitted that there are two sides to him...one where he feeds his ego with all that he wants to attach referentially to his ideas...and the other (more practical) side where he wants to build his ideas...and where he can call himself an architect..
So I guess, to be fair to you, I'll concede to the fact that architecture, being a cerebral, intellectual occupation requires some theoretical applique...but when that starts to take over your entire outlook to your work and profession is when you start becoming a dinosaur like Eisenman.....inventing and reinventing words and meanings to suit his purpose...getting everyone impressionable involved into post-modern speak and esoteric theory....
When it comes down to putting the architecture together, its all about practical pragmatic conditions that exist in the real world..about cost and site...about client and user...about finding workable solutions to the many problems that go into putting a building together...
And to show you buildings rooted in context and hugely succesful, and in India, for that matter...check out Charles Correa's Gandhi Ashram in Ahmedabad....check out Laurie Baker's work in South India...check out Kahn's IIM in Ahmedabad...If and when you visit these buildings, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about...pictures don't do them justice...
VM Mumbai! Whodunit???
Anybody have any idea who the architect of this project is? it looks pretty cool.
http://www.archinect.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=4
Mumbai's in India, isn't it? who's building this sort of stuff there??? I don't mean to sound demeaning, it's just a little surprising to see this sort of work coming out of india...
Lin'gua,
I doubt if this is in India....but that don't mean it can't be..
Lin'gua...
yea, it is a bit strange to see such work come out from India, but truth is that there is a lot of interesting work being done, but does not get global exposure.
Being from India and now in the US, i can safely proclaim that it is more difficult to do innovative stuff in the US than in India - there are many enterpreneurs that are willing to take design risks and in many cases, the by-laws like ADA are not fully in place, which result in more fun stuff being built.
Of course when it comes to taste, its a different story, but yes, things are changing fast.
sameolddoctor,
I would'nt agree more....there are a lot of small design firms in Mumbai that do a lot of interesting stuff...and don't care about being published in the media...
The big architectural stuff goes to a handful of corporate firms that produce crapshitecture....its mostly political of course...
Wow, that's a BIG eye-opener...
another example is the work of LCM in Mexico City. Theyre building alot of work, even blobs, that would be very difficult to build in the US
This Chris Lee chap seems to be doing some interesting work....I guess, if you have the political savvy and street smarts, you could build stuff in India....
Again...you need to have a lot of political contacts with people in powerful positions to get your stuff through...
sameolddoc + minim-animal
could you names some of these firms in india, that do interesting work? any links?
i'd be interested in looking them up and seeing what they're up to...
thanks for you help.
spiderdad,
I doubt that they even have websites..
But here are some names that spring to mind
sameera rathod
44architecture
bobby mukherji
dhananjay dake
Chris Lee in partnership with architect Kapil Gupta based in Mumbai whose firm, contemporary urban,have designed and are executing the project being discussed here. They are doing a lot of interesting projects and there are a lot many young small firms in my city, mumbai, previously known as Bombay (INDIA) who are trying to experiment, bring about some change and make a difference to the architectural scenario here.
Minimal,
dhananjay dake's a structural engineer, and doesn't accept architects, in case you were interested in applying...
it's interesting to see work like that juxtaposed with the disaffected slave labor required to create it. the looks on the faces of the workers is priceless, they look as though they were just kidnapped.
ticker,
I know Dake is a structural engineer..but the fact that he does not accept architects is not true...I know people with architecture degrees who have worked / interned with him
there is a lot of great work in india. the construction process there is extremely labor intensive, so i don't see any reason why a project like this couldn't be built there, especially if the materials (like concrete) aren't too expensive.
le bossman,
its all about attitudes and sensibilities..
most people in India are mostly traditional and conservative...and that percolates down to everything that they do...so getting clients to pay for contemporary stuff is difficult. Most designers like to fuse traditional ethnic sensibilities with modern materials and elements of style....
but things seem to be changing...with this VM store, it'll become a race to be more "trendy".....hopefully it sparks off something good
you can add the office of Sameep Padora to the list of people going interesting work
Add to that list Morphogenesis Architecture Studio, run by Manit and Sonali Rastogi. Does anyone have links to websites of contemporary Indian Architects?
I found the morphogenesis studio website
http://www.morphogenesis.org
pretty cool stuff
sameep padora has been featured in the only online web magazine concentrating on work from India / South Asia
www.layermag.com
Check it out!
There are some more architects featured too!
Sameep Padora's Feature
http://www.layermag.com/feature.html
M/A
interesting to me with regard to this store (and its potential effects in bombay) is that it seems to be a shift away from the "orthagonal" modernism that was imported by kahn and corbu. some of doshi's later work (tejal house or the husain-doshi gufa) seem to imply this also, though i don't think they were in mumbai. i don't know much about the liberal-conservative issue in mumbai...is it a conservative place? what forces are currently influencing designers their now (most of what i have read is probably 5 or 10 years behind)? i have to admit that much of the modern architecture in india, even the more amazing works by correa and doshi are somewhat conservative (and orthagonal). i always assumed that this was due to the economic environment, which is why i brought up the notion of labor intensity; that idea seems to imply that my understanding of modern architecture in india was somewhat thin and that this project represents another paradigm. i don't know anything at all about the younger generation of architects in south asia; only the established offices. i've really got to get to india.
le bossman,
this store is the first example of 'non-orthagonal' work I've seen in Mumbai...well...the Doshi-Hussain gufa (art gallery) in Ahmedabad is non-orthagonal and highly organic...
Doshi and Correa have become dinosaurs and have lost most of their footing in the market....
Mumbai,though ethno-urban, has not yet come of age as far as contemporary architecture goes...and is being dominated by steel and glass imitations of western architecture without any real context or authenticity....
The legacy set forth by Corbu and Kahn is completely lost...though I must say that it never took root in Mumbai really....and the city has no real architectural character...
The place is still conservative if looked at from an American standpoint...but American-ism flourishes...so its just a matter of time till it starts being neo-american and gets its own strip malls and high-rise downtowns...
I must mention that I know Sameep Padora and have great respect for him...he is a good designer running a small office in downtown Mumbai...
I ahd not seen his work, having been out of India for the last four years.....and am glad to see he is doing some work that is unusual for India.....but I am critical of the fact that it does not respond to its context...
its hip and cool with its folding planes and blob-tecture....but I can tell you with 100% certainty that not one single person in all of Mumbai would understand it or identify with it...
minimal
guess you are right..but someone has to start somewhere, no????
sure...but not with blobs and folded planes....if that's your sense of what's 'contemporary' then you need to re-evaluate...
its all about context, in my mind.....Mumbai is not yet ready for iterations of greg lynn form or Neil Denari...
M/A
a fairly open-ended question but can you point me to where i can find info on who is who in mumbai's architectural scene?
while mumbai might not be ready for the likes of greg lynn or neil denari, i would rather see them imitated than most of the crap that's going on in shanghai, which is probably the potential alternative if no one is investigating what kind of architecture mumbai can conceive of on its own.
minimal,
i think we were talking about 'interesting' work going on in mumbai, and on that page i would definately say that Greg lynn and Denari rip-offs (if you want to call them that) are better than tons of concrete being wasted in Hafeez Contractor shitpiles.
Whats 'good' or 'bad' is another discussion, albeit a more subjective one. but again, this was about what is interesting design.
Also,
definition of Contemporary
con·tem·po·rar·y (kən-tĕm'pə-rĕr'ē) pronunciation
adj.
1. Belonging to the same period of time: a fact documented by two contemporary sources.
2. Of about the same age.
3. Current; modern: contemporary trends in design.
bossman,
the number of young guns in the Mumbai architectural scene is small, but slowly and surely making a difference. Unfortunately, few of the firms here doing interesting work really sell themselves internationally. Most of these guys have degrees from abroad (mostly the US, some from the UK) and have come back here to practice. While its still largely a conservative city with a faux-history fetish, Mumbai is probably the most forward-looking and international city in India. There is a place for those who want to take a strong design stance and build what they want and as they see fit to. The clients are there, they do exist. And they have the money and taste to fund good design.
If you want to know more about the local scene here, mail me and i'll give you a list of people and projects to look up. I'm sorry, but firm websites are few.
minimal, i think your thoughts on the contextuality and appropriateness are a little stilted and immature. You seem to be taking VM mumbai at face value while condemning it for its lack of contextual "rootedness". it's a messy debate we can get into, but let me circumvent that by saying that plenty of time and thought has gone and continues to go into the idea of a "Mumbai-driven architecture". We obviously can't apply the yardstick of 1500 years of indian architectural history to a city like this, nor can we apply the lessons of Kahn, Corb and their lesser, local descendants. Mumbai's situation is unique, and deserves unique strategies. i'm know for a fact that people here understand that, and are working on it. Contrary to what you might believe, the formal moves of VM Mumbai don't imply an outright disregard for its place and time.
If perhaps you believe the project to be somewhat copycat, then i have just one thing to say. sameolddoctor is right, everyone has to start somewhere.
I would say that people like Kapil Gupta and Chris Lee are at the forefront of the wave of new architecture here. They're producing interesting work and bucking the grotesque PoMo (in name only) trend here. I have to side with sameolddoctor again,
"...i would definately say that Greg lynn and Denari rip-offs (if you want to call them that) are better than tons of concrete being wasted in Hafeez Contractor shitpiles."
TT ? ... well whatever ....... i've just seen the pictures and guess a lot of 'intellectual' interaction has already taken place .... it has always been usual for a new and innovative (if i must add) venture to face criticism in its initial stages but time proves many wrong (and stupid in this case) ..... closer to international design now, i believe back in mumbai some people are really doing great work ...... .. i guess one must try to understand how this design actually got executed on site in indian conditions, budget and with indian construction techniques before pouring out their attitude on to this page ....i see a lot to learn here ...... the workers actually must be proud Beta.D ... and seems like they're earning better than you ! ........ no wonder you look damn frustrated ....... i agree to TT .. to some extent ........... to cut the crap .. the interiors look excellent .... i can't wait to see the pictures of the completed / finished space ....... ..... and some one please put the ANIMAL back into school ...
for architecture ... always
I dont think minimal animal is totally incorrect. Though Mumbai doesnot have any strong architectural culture and it is a fast growing city with changing needs and the culture is a lot more wersternised here than elsewhere in India, there is no real effort put into developing projects which are unique to this city and which try to offer some tangible solutions to its problems nor is the context given too much importance. Now, in the case of VM which is a high end store, the design is not out of place (besides it is not a scratch build it is an interior remodelling project) but the younger generation of architects (me being one of them) need to do more than just make blobs and folded planes, they have to use their education to do more. I donot mean to generalise as I know that there are some architects, Kapil Gupta being one of them, are trying to make a difference and bring about change and yes, it has to start somewhere, but I simply wish there was a wider range (in the solutions) and different approaches visible in the projects being executed here. And I am extremely glad that the end to Hafeez era is near ( I hope!)
poly! are you Chris Lee? no one said that i did not think i was slave labor, so yeah it's possible they earn more than me. but tell me, how many times have you seen slave labor in photos such as these?
betadine, I am very uncomfortable with your use of the word slave labor. The labour that works on most sites in mumbai may not have a formal education but are skilled and quite reasonably trained (specially carpenters and stone masons, who tend to be from families who have been carpenters for generations and hence know their field better than most of us educated architects). They are also paid better (compared to the cost of living here etc) than you would expect. Thought you might be interested in knowing this, thats all.
Same Old,
Sure....we can all find dictionary definitions of various buzzwords and post them on this blog....if you want I can find the definitions of "Contextual" and "Sensitive" for you....Let me know..
But really, you make a good point about Hafeez Contractor's work....but even then, non-contextual, insensitive work which does not respond to the culture it is made for is not a good replacement for it....
I think what is required is a design sensibility that responds more to the Indian culture and is not just another rip-off....I'm sure Mr.Padora has seen "Gyroscopic Horizons" somewhere which has inspired his folded plane sofa....and that's ok....to each his own...
But when we talk about what is good and bad in architecture, I think we need to put it in context....Just as Corbu's Capitol Complex at Chandigarh, though a magnificent example of architecture, did not work, because no one except Nehru wanted it...(now its being converted into a monument)....the same way folded planes and blobs are not going to work in India...no matter how urban Mumbai gets..the common man still remains conservative and traditional.....it'll be a long time before they start responding to this kind of "contemporary" architecture....no matter what the definition says..
I am with all of you, in saying that this VM showroom is cool and exciting....and its really good to see such stuff being done in Mumbai....but realistically, even if this thing is built and even if Rem builds a Prada is Cuffe Parade in Mumbai, it'll still flop miserably in terms of good contextual sensitive design...
Just to add to this discussion, there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in B'lore and Gurgaon too. Its not just Bombay that seems to be leading the architectural Avante Garde.. if I may.
Like Rajesh Renganathan's House/ Studio
http://www.layermag.com/feature_rajesh_1.html
minimal,
we are getting down to the basics here, i think -
can we, for a minute not think of context as physical context, but context that is programmatic, and brand-oriented???
of course if this work for done for a low-income housing project in the indian context our responses would be vitriolic - but for high end boutique store like this, is it not totally fine???
if you bring up the issue of context, all i am saying that you should think of program also as a contextual factor
sameold,
I am thankful that at the very least you're acknowledging the fact that architecture and for that matter, all of design should be contextualised..and sure its a very basic issue...to think of architecture in terms of its context and not in a completely arbitrary notion....and when you think of 'context', it should be encompassing of everything that in any way influences the design response...may it be programme, brand, site.....etc etc
We have to think....does VM, as a brand, require folded planes as a design response or solution for its space....maybe it does..but most likely not.....like Swatch requires its store to be a particular way anywhere in the world...and when the designer comes up with a response that is so very 'like' something else in a context that is as far as removed from the applicable situation, is when this debate is sparked off...don't you agree ??
um, ok. so lets have an example of good, "contextual" design in bombay, then. i'd like to go take a look at it...
well lots to read again ..... i think we just might have drifted away from the 'correct' trajectory of our discussion ........ who bothers how much one's making every month ..... the design seems like a good deviation from the existing ideas (visible in the city) to a more international style .... i see a lot of details have been amazingly worked out ....... and as far as contextual concerns go, its useless to argue without undrstanding the design methodology ........... i appretiate different theoretical treatise being exchanged on this page and probably also the will to converse in a reasonably complex nature of language ...... but i wouldn't be interested in contributing to a debate, the complete facts of which are still unknown .... all that i am sure about is that the volume has been beautifully sculpted with a constant 'context' or concept in mind ..... and its bound to look awesome ...... there's definitely a fresh feel of space which would only benefit the brands .... context addresses i guess ...... and by the way i'm not C.Lee ...
poly..
the debate was never about wheter the damn thing looks good or not....it obviously does...and if you're not interested in contributing to this debate, then why are you posting on this thread ? ...
I don't think that context = concept...as you put it....go back to Basic Design 101....context influences design response...concept is the underlying idea that resides within the design response....
so animal ...congrats ..you have already driven everyone out from this page with your boring interests.... now all the best .... stay with you concpetual and contextual 'serious shit' ..... and speak loud >>>LOUD i mean ... there's no one to really listen to you anyways ...........
and thanks for the advice ...... go and help tsunami victims .... that's the most contexual work right now ......
by the way it was nice to see your reply ...... i was waiting for your comments since the first day .................... at least you understood the 'context' to get personal ........ ..... wanna step outside ....????
hahahahahahahahaha
sure poly...
you should change your name to polygone...you stick to your blob-crap and brand-shit....and maybe someday, somehow you can really build something...which is what architects do...the rest is all bullshit...
you can go one forever with your esoteric nonsense...you can study linguistics forever until you become a cunning linguist yourself....
lets step outside where I can teach you a couple of things about architecture....or maybe archi-torture...
someday, somehow you can really build something...which is what architects do...the rest is all bullshit...
what are you minimal, 8 years old????
no sameold, its the truth and you know it..
I see no point in the incessant philosophy that most architects extol in today's world...
Greg Lynn can wax lyrical about his blobs...or Neil Denari can fold planes till kingdom come....but in the end, they're not building anything....
Have you ever heard foster or piano talk philosophy ?? they find inspiration in context and nature...not in esoteric relationships between language and tectonics....nor in "brand"..
And yes, poly...I would like to help the Tsunami victims and I am...at least it would account for something...you can remain on your high horse and ride into your linguistic sunset..
hi animal ... i would try to put forward my opinion (this time it'll be helpful to you) .... and i'll try to be as strightforward as possible ... in as simple a language as possible ...... let's assume that you do have an iota of intellect that you project you have .... then you must be one of those people who have understood just one of the many aspects of architecture ... .in your case it's 'context' ..... same old is right ... are you a kid ..... are you like a first semester student or something ..... always trying to debate with one 'single' frame of mind you have because it seems that its the only thing you can talk about ...... or i guess the recent text you read must have included these concepts which must have been 'new' for you and so you wanna fart around with your only intelligent facet ....... you know if you had read corbusier last month you would have got stuck with modularity of these post modular design .... and if you had read tshumi explaining his la villete you would have actually gone anti-contextual ......must have said .. there's no context .. there's no architecture ......... you know what's the problem buddy ... people like you don't have any opinions of you own ...... you haven't yet developed the ability to put forward a prsonal judjement ..... the inability to develop a personal, unique 'philosophy' ......... and the you need some space to speak in all the discussions .... so your singular concept becomes a chair that you stick to your butt and carry it everywhere you go .... so you can atleast sit and participate in every debate........... and no matter what the hell others want to contribute you'll continue to deviate the flow towards your 'contextual' themes ...... the only thing sensible that you can speak of ...... give yourself a break ...... and others too .....
i am just trying to save you .... butthead
you need help !
lets give TT a reply ... rather .... i would get back with my opinion of a building in mumbai or india rather ....
poly
I will not hold the fact that you don't have the ability of holding a debate if you're not getting headway against you...
you and all like you...who think that someone thinking practically is a danger to your kind, should really get out there into the profession and try your "philosophies" out...and see if they hold any water with anyone outside this forum or other places similar to these...
Architecture is all about building...and anyone who says anything to the contrary just does not know enough yet...Sure..we can all go nuts over all the "theory" and "philosophy" floating around out there and try to validate what we whimsically want to put out, but that does not change the fact that if it does not get built, it can no longer be called architecture...
The essential difference between a practitioner and a theorist is exactly like the difference between a building and a project that's not realised...even Thom Mayne has readily admitted that there are two sides to him...one where he feeds his ego with all that he wants to attach referentially to his ideas...and the other (more practical) side where he wants to build his ideas...and where he can call himself an architect..
So I guess, to be fair to you, I'll concede to the fact that architecture, being a cerebral, intellectual occupation requires some theoretical applique...but when that starts to take over your entire outlook to your work and profession is when you start becoming a dinosaur like Eisenman.....inventing and reinventing words and meanings to suit his purpose...getting everyone impressionable involved into post-modern speak and esoteric theory....
When it comes down to putting the architecture together, its all about practical pragmatic conditions that exist in the real world..about cost and site...about client and user...about finding workable solutions to the many problems that go into putting a building together...
And to show you buildings rooted in context and hugely succesful, and in India, for that matter...check out Charles Correa's Gandhi Ashram in Ahmedabad....check out Laurie Baker's work in South India...check out Kahn's IIM in Ahmedabad...If and when you visit these buildings, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about...pictures don't do them justice...
Enough said !
you guys....... need to chill..... with... the.......... ellipses.
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