here's whats really pisses me off about this whole thing. the whole point of the show is for this character to explore the diversity in our world. and then pbs craps out by saying that they pulled it because they realized how sensitive a subject it is. i just lost a lot of respect for pbs because there are people in this world who will find anyone different from themselves threatening.
ill put myself on the proverbial butcher block and say that sometimes i feel like i am one of those people. i gravitate towards those who are most like me and i think that a lot of people do that. i have to fight to remind myself everyday that i am a better man by listening to other points of view and acknowledging our strength lies in our differences. and if some little bunny hopping around the world can help today's children recognize the power of diversity, then i say we are on the right track.
what i found to be utterly embarassing is the fact that spellings had pbs remove any sign or stamp that would lead back to the education department. what is she implying by doing that, its like saying she is disgusted by homosexuality and any part of it, especially educating people, specifically children about the diversity present in society. just put a bag on your child's head. its just sad.
the best part, she is bush's education chief.
once again, i give the big middle finger to the bush administration. how embarassing.
...i think the argument was about whether the program was appropriate as a federally funded childrens educational show. what in the world does diversity have to do with it? sado-masochism is a diverse lifestyle choice, that doesn't mean children should be exposed to it on public television as an 'educational' show, does it? if it is a program on human sexuality, fine. but give the kids a break.
the thing is, the show had nothing to do with sexuality, it just so happened to show a couple of animated bunnies who were lesbians. the education department strong-armed pbs to take the show off the air.
god forbid pbs does have a program that showcased a homosexual character in the future.
this has just about proven that it will never happen, because the education department is too afraid to even show a minor homosexual character.
Quentin's Monologue from 'Sleep With Me'
Originally written by Roger Avary
What's a film about, what's it really about? What genre does it take?
[Duane: What, like the spine? Like one sentence?]
No, I don't, fucking boy meets girl, I don't give a shit about that. Fuck boy meets girl, fuck motorcycle movie. No, what is really being said? What's really being said, that's what you're talking about. 'Cause the whole idea, man, is subversion. You want subversion on a massive level. You know what one of the greatest fucking scripts ever written in the history of Hollywood is? Top Gun.
[Duane: Oh, come on.]
Top Gun is fucking great. What is Top Gun? You think it's a story about a bunch of fighter pilots. [Duane: It's about a bunch of guys waving their dicks around.] It is a story about a man's struggle with his own homosexuality. It is! That is what Top Gun is about, man.
You've got Maverick, all right? He's on the edge, man. He's right on the fucking line, all right? And you've got Iceman, and all his crew. They're gay, they represent the gay man, all right? And they're saying, go, go the gay way, go the gay way. He could go both ways.
[Duane: What about Kelly McGillis?]
Kelly McGillis, she's heterosexuality. She's saying: no, no, no, no, no, no, go the normal way, play by the rules, go the normal way. They're saying no, go the gay way, be the gay way, go for the gay way, all right? That is what's going on throughout that whole movie...
He goes to her house, all right? It looks like they're going to have sex, you know, they're just kind of sitting back, he's takin' a shower and everything. They don't have sex. He gets on the motorcycle, drives away. She's like, "What the fuck, what the fuck is going on here?" Next scene, next scene you see her, she's in the elevator, she is dressed like a guy. She's got the cap on, she's got the aviator glasses, she's wearing the same jacket that the Iceman wears. She is, okay, this is how I gotta get this guy, this guy's going towards the gay way, I gotta bring him back, I gotta bring him back from the gay way, so I'm do that through subterfuge, I'm gonna dress like a man. All right? That is how she approaches it.
Okay, now let me just ask you--I'm gonna digress for two seconds here. I met this girl Amy here, she's like floating around here and everything. Now, she just got divorced, right?...
All right, but the REAL ending of the movie is when they fight the MIGs at the end, all right? Because he has passed over into the gay way. They are this gay fighting fucking force, all right? And they're beating the Russians, the gays are beating the Russians. And it's over, and they fucking land, and Iceman's been trying to get Maverick the entire time, and finally, he's got him, all right? And what is the last fucking line that they have together? They're all hugging and kissing and happy with each other, and Ice comes up to Maverick, and he says, "Man, you can ride my tail, anytime!" And what does Maverick say? "You can ride mine!" Swordfight! Swordfight! Fuckin' A, man!
All kids are kinky sadomasochistic bi sex monsters. At least I was. It’s being repressed, straight breeders that they have to learn (from every other absurd sex obsessed, yet so uptight TV show). Give them the kids a break from the non-stop Kutch-und-Kirk-und-Kinder brainwash-o-rama I say!
anyway, i'm not sure i really care about what PBS shows and what they don't. IMO, if someone (kids included - flamesuit on, ziiiip!) wants to watch gays on TV, there are plenty of other options. sure, its crap that the gov't strongarmed P(is for PUBLIC?)BS into not airing the program, but i am not surprised given the bush administration's edu. record and religious affiliations.
i agree with you, meversusyou, and stand proudly next to you with my middle finger erected toward the bush administration.
gillespie: Nice post. You are right that being tolerant and understanding of those who are different is something that takes constant vigilance. And that willingness to try to understand an “other†is, for me, a much more manly quality than is a stubborn and blind defense of a position taken out of fear.
liberty, i don't understand the last part of your comment. i have come across just as many intolerent women as i have men. it goes both ways. am i misunderstanding you?
from article: "...saying many parents would not want children exposed to such lifestyles."
It wasn't that sex was on display, merely the presence of a same-sex couple. If parents don't want their children exposed to such lifestyles, better keep 'em in the house and away from the TV anyway!
Federal funding shouldn't be limited to presenting the way SOME might like the world to look. The world is what it is and a presentation on diversity or even a presentation on "farm life and maple sugaring" shouldn't shy away from what a child might see out in the world.
better keep em off the streets, out of the parks, out of the stores, off the slopes, etc. what do these people do when the see two men or two women showing affection for one another in a public place do?
I was actually on June 5th 1973 that it was declared uncontroversial by the Senate subcommittee on what’s controversial and what’s not. I think it was around 3:30 in the afternoon.
e, in trying to be brief I was also confusing. There are plenty of intolerant women, of course, that goes w/o saying. gillespie raised the notion of knowing he’s being “a better man†when he tries to understand those who are different from him. I’ve been thinking a lot in the last few years about what the true qualities of “manliness†are, which compelled me to respond directly to gillespie’s post.
I think our society has tended to place the wrong emphasis on what qualities are "manly", e.g. tough, macho posturing is considered more manly than contemplation, honesty, taking responsibility for one's actions, having respect for one another, etc....all the things that I personally think add up to being a "real man". I think it's like the smart kids in the ghetto schools having to hide their intelligence because it's not considered cool - I think men face a similar difficult position. I wish we could redefine what it means to "be a man" more along the lines of a Frank Capra film, I guess!
Whatever our society defines as ideal "womanliness" (what word would that be?!) seems to allow for having a lot more love and empathy for one another than our definition of manliness does.
This is getting off topic but that’s an interesting statement. I think life’s tough all over on this one (Imagine having to round up all those hair products to construct you identity while us dudes just have to make sure we Don’t have too many)
I does seem, though that most of what gets put onto women serves to hold them back and keep them from doing things where as men get pushed forward and have things demanded of them. I took a seminar from a really amazing feminist theorist (Liz Grosz) and she started off by mentioning, with a bit of saccharine, that she welcomed men to the class and appreciated our interest. I remember replying that I wasn’t there as a favor to anyone, I wanted out of my fucked gender role as bad as anyone.
It seems like even the academics are just getting to this one. You should start a thread…
thanks for clarifying liberty. i hear what you are saying. i love when a man shakes my hand like he's out to break it. jeezus dood, i'm just trying to say hi not arm wrestle you. this isn't a competition.
Did anyone esle actually watch the show? I was pissed that PBS would back down and pull the show for some closed-minded bureaucrat. I am lucky enough to live somewhere it aired regardless of PBS's lack of spine. I sat down with my two-year-old son and watched simply to make a point.
What happened on the show? This cartoon rabbit met and followed around some real kids from Vermont who just happened to have lesbians for parents. The lesbians were almost entirely absent from the show appearing together only at the dinner table while everyone enjoyed their meal together.
What harm could have possibly been done to my child? Only that my child could have come to recognize that lesbians aren't fire-breathing monsters and their children are just as well-adjusted as the rest of us. The only reason I can see that the show was protested by our conservative compatriots is because it shows just how normal it all is. We would hate to give our children more reasons to be tolerant and open-minded!
i didn't not see it although i heard some people discussing it briefly on npr yesterday. one person said something rather to the point. it went something like this >> for me the disappointment comes failing to represent a group of wonderful children who are always dismissed and not represented. he was speaking of the children of gay and lesbian parents.
Feb 3, 05 12:56 pm ·
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kill the queers
child: mommy, why are the two girl bunnies wrestling?
parent: DAMN YOU PBS, DAMN YOU TO HELL!!
watch out sponge bob
Bert & Earnie ?
batman and robin?
hey! dont you dare slander their names with your filthy, absurd notions!
they are roommates!
what?!! Bert & Ernie? What are you saying? I have B&E PJ's, I am wearing them right now, so you better change your tone.
Dont worry! the ambiguosly gay duo (SNL) will come to the rescue!
here's whats really pisses me off about this whole thing. the whole point of the show is for this character to explore the diversity in our world. and then pbs craps out by saying that they pulled it because they realized how sensitive a subject it is. i just lost a lot of respect for pbs because there are people in this world who will find anyone different from themselves threatening.
ill put myself on the proverbial butcher block and say that sometimes i feel like i am one of those people. i gravitate towards those who are most like me and i think that a lot of people do that. i have to fight to remind myself everyday that i am a better man by listening to other points of view and acknowledging our strength lies in our differences. and if some little bunny hopping around the world can help today's children recognize the power of diversity, then i say we are on the right track.
what i found to be utterly embarassing is the fact that spellings had pbs remove any sign or stamp that would lead back to the education department. what is she implying by doing that, its like saying she is disgusted by homosexuality and any part of it, especially educating people, specifically children about the diversity present in society. just put a bag on your child's head. its just sad.
the best part, she is bush's education chief.
once again, i give the big middle finger to the bush administration. how embarassing.
...i think the argument was about whether the program was appropriate as a federally funded childrens educational show. what in the world does diversity have to do with it? sado-masochism is a diverse lifestyle choice, that doesn't mean children should be exposed to it on public television as an 'educational' show, does it? if it is a program on human sexuality, fine. but give the kids a break.
its not the kids i am worried about, hater.
the thing is, the show had nothing to do with sexuality, it just so happened to show a couple of animated bunnies who were lesbians. the education department strong-armed pbs to take the show off the air.
god forbid pbs does have a program that showcased a homosexual character in the future.
this has just about proven that it will never happen, because the education department is too afraid to even show a minor homosexual character.
there was a great thread about the gay subplot in top gun, if xsomeone could fish it out...
anyway, i love america.
Quentin's Monologue from 'Sleep With Me'
Originally written by Roger Avary
What's a film about, what's it really about? What genre does it take?
[Duane: What, like the spine? Like one sentence?]
No, I don't, fucking boy meets girl, I don't give a shit about that. Fuck boy meets girl, fuck motorcycle movie. No, what is really being said? What's really being said, that's what you're talking about. 'Cause the whole idea, man, is subversion. You want subversion on a massive level. You know what one of the greatest fucking scripts ever written in the history of Hollywood is? Top Gun.
[Duane: Oh, come on.]
Top Gun is fucking great. What is Top Gun? You think it's a story about a bunch of fighter pilots. [Duane: It's about a bunch of guys waving their dicks around.] It is a story about a man's struggle with his own homosexuality. It is! That is what Top Gun is about, man.
You've got Maverick, all right? He's on the edge, man. He's right on the fucking line, all right? And you've got Iceman, and all his crew. They're gay, they represent the gay man, all right? And they're saying, go, go the gay way, go the gay way. He could go both ways.
[Duane: What about Kelly McGillis?]
Kelly McGillis, she's heterosexuality. She's saying: no, no, no, no, no, no, go the normal way, play by the rules, go the normal way. They're saying no, go the gay way, be the gay way, go for the gay way, all right? That is what's going on throughout that whole movie...
He goes to her house, all right? It looks like they're going to have sex, you know, they're just kind of sitting back, he's takin' a shower and everything. They don't have sex. He gets on the motorcycle, drives away. She's like, "What the fuck, what the fuck is going on here?" Next scene, next scene you see her, she's in the elevator, she is dressed like a guy. She's got the cap on, she's got the aviator glasses, she's wearing the same jacket that the Iceman wears. She is, okay, this is how I gotta get this guy, this guy's going towards the gay way, I gotta bring him back, I gotta bring him back from the gay way, so I'm do that through subterfuge, I'm gonna dress like a man. All right? That is how she approaches it.
Okay, now let me just ask you--I'm gonna digress for two seconds here. I met this girl Amy here, she's like floating around here and everything. Now, she just got divorced, right?...
All right, but the REAL ending of the movie is when they fight the MIGs at the end, all right? Because he has passed over into the gay way. They are this gay fighting fucking force, all right? And they're beating the Russians, the gays are beating the Russians. And it's over, and they fucking land, and Iceman's been trying to get Maverick the entire time, and finally, he's got him, all right? And what is the last fucking line that they have together? They're all hugging and kissing and happy with each other, and Ice comes up to Maverick, and he says, "Man, you can ride my tail, anytime!" And what does Maverick say? "You can ride mine!" Swordfight! Swordfight! Fuckin' A, man!
All kids are kinky sadomasochistic bi sex monsters. At least I was. It’s being repressed, straight breeders that they have to learn (from every other absurd sex obsessed, yet so uptight TV show). Give them the kids a break from the non-stop Kutch-und-Kirk-und-Kinder brainwash-o-rama I say!
take that o+!
...i think we are all dumber now for having read that...thankyou.
great fucking stuff.
top gun sucks.
anyway, i'm not sure i really care about what PBS shows and what they don't. IMO, if someone (kids included - flamesuit on, ziiiip!) wants to watch gays on TV, there are plenty of other options. sure, its crap that the gov't strongarmed P(is for PUBLIC?)BS into not airing the program, but i am not surprised given the bush administration's edu. record and religious affiliations.
i agree with you, meversusyou, and stand proudly next to you with my middle finger erected toward the bush administration.
gillespie: Nice post. You are right that being tolerant and understanding of those who are different is something that takes constant vigilance. And that willingness to try to understand an “other†is, for me, a much more manly quality than is a stubborn and blind defense of a position taken out of fear.
if more bunnies were lesbian, we wouldnt have the animal overpopulation problems that we have
liberty, i don't understand the last part of your comment. i have come across just as many intolerent women as i have men. it goes both ways. am i misunderstanding you?
from article: "...saying many parents would not want children exposed to such lifestyles."
It wasn't that sex was on display, merely the presence of a same-sex couple. If parents don't want their children exposed to such lifestyles, better keep 'em in the house and away from the TV anyway!
Federal funding shouldn't be limited to presenting the way SOME might like the world to look. The world is what it is and a presentation on diversity or even a presentation on "farm life and maple sugaring" shouldn't shy away from what a child might see out in the world.
better keep em off the streets, out of the parks, out of the stores, off the slopes, etc. what do these people do when the see two men or two women showing affection for one another in a public place do?
30 years ago you couldnt show a mixed race couple.
in 1975?
up to 70's it was controversial. don't be a douche with the specifics.
blow me cock
I was actually on June 5th 1973 that it was declared uncontroversial by the Senate subcommittee on what’s controversial and what’s not. I think it was around 3:30 in the afternoon.
all of the republicans must have been having their afternoon nap.
I find the lesbian bunny thing a little weird. If you want to introduce diverse lifestyles and such to kids at least use real people.
I think its funny that the title of the episode was "sugartime!" Given the context of this episode, it seems a little dirty...
i thought marriage was between a man and a woman. all of god's other creatures, bunnies included can get their freak on any old which way. peace
get used to it kids cuz the ultra conservatives breeding like rabbits
e, in trying to be brief I was also confusing. There are plenty of intolerant women, of course, that goes w/o saying. gillespie raised the notion of knowing he’s being “a better man†when he tries to understand those who are different from him. I’ve been thinking a lot in the last few years about what the true qualities of “manliness†are, which compelled me to respond directly to gillespie’s post.
I think our society has tended to place the wrong emphasis on what qualities are "manly", e.g. tough, macho posturing is considered more manly than contemplation, honesty, taking responsibility for one's actions, having respect for one another, etc....all the things that I personally think add up to being a "real man". I think it's like the smart kids in the ghetto schools having to hide their intelligence because it's not considered cool - I think men face a similar difficult position. I wish we could redefine what it means to "be a man" more along the lines of a Frank Capra film, I guess!
Whatever our society defines as ideal "womanliness" (what word would that be?!) seems to allow for having a lot more love and empathy for one another than our definition of manliness does.
Lib bell:
This is getting off topic but that’s an interesting statement. I think life’s tough all over on this one (Imagine having to round up all those hair products to construct you identity while us dudes just have to make sure we Don’t have too many)
I does seem, though that most of what gets put onto women serves to hold them back and keep them from doing things where as men get pushed forward and have things demanded of them. I took a seminar from a really amazing feminist theorist (Liz Grosz) and she started off by mentioning, with a bit of saccharine, that she welcomed men to the class and appreciated our interest. I remember replying that I wasn’t there as a favor to anyone, I wanted out of my fucked gender role as bad as anyone.
It seems like even the academics are just getting to this one. You should start a thread…
thanks for clarifying liberty. i hear what you are saying. i love when a man shakes my hand like he's out to break it. jeezus dood, i'm just trying to say hi not arm wrestle you. this isn't a competition.
+
get used to it kids cuz the ultra conservatives breeding like rabbits
say no more.
(yawn)
Did anyone esle actually watch the show? I was pissed that PBS would back down and pull the show for some closed-minded bureaucrat. I am lucky enough to live somewhere it aired regardless of PBS's lack of spine. I sat down with my two-year-old son and watched simply to make a point.
What happened on the show? This cartoon rabbit met and followed around some real kids from Vermont who just happened to have lesbians for parents. The lesbians were almost entirely absent from the show appearing together only at the dinner table while everyone enjoyed their meal together.
What harm could have possibly been done to my child? Only that my child could have come to recognize that lesbians aren't fire-breathing monsters and their children are just as well-adjusted as the rest of us. The only reason I can see that the show was protested by our conservative compatriots is because it shows just how normal it all is. We would hate to give our children more reasons to be tolerant and open-minded!
i didn't not see it although i heard some people discussing it briefly on npr yesterday. one person said something rather to the point. it went something like this >> for me the disappointment comes failing to represent a group of wonderful children who are always dismissed and not represented. he was speaking of the children of gay and lesbian parents.
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