do clients have unrealistic expectations for what buildings cost? how do they get the impression that they are "charities" when they are not and shouldn't have to pay for anything or believe architects and contractors are ripping them off?
personally, i believe that if there is anything we should be spending money on it is nice buildings. society doesn't share this belief.
around here, people would rather expand a 2 lane highway to a four lane at a cool million $ per mile rather than spend 3/4 of a million on a new public library. is there something amiss with the way buildings are funded and financed these days?
often times, the budgets are set far before the design team and architects are even thought of. most developers commission market research for private buildings to understand if what they want to do will be profitable (will the amount of risk and effort they're taking on pay off in the end). in these studies, they see what different types of square footages (residential condo studio/ 1br/2br/3br, retail, office, restaurant, etc) will rent or sell. this data is compiled by studying the adjacent areas. they take this information and use it to get financing from banks. then they take this 'money in hand' or a promise of a loan and hire a design team to design a building with that budget number. the architects have cost estimating done and low and behold, the estimates are much higher than their financing. often times, outside factors escalate the price of materials. steel prices for instance are still not stable. i've been told that prices for steel are only gauranteed for 24 hours by some fabricators. insurance, wages, cost of materials, transportation, fuel, etc. all factor into how much a project is. since the financing is based on data that sometimes is two years old or older, we're left with a building that is obsolete before we even begin to design it.
as for your library scenerio at $750k. . . at even $175 per sf, that's only a 4,286 sf library. pretty small. if you want a nice civic structure and a main library, 40,000 sf or larger is more like it. at $175 per sf, that's $7 mil. main branch libraries are usually much larger, like 75,000 or even 100,000 for a university library. the use of nice materials like wood, granite or even architectural concrete can drive the cost per sf up to $200 easily.
professional clients / developers know their costs with some friendly input from a QS. I don’t get that involved until the word ‘significant reduction’ is mentioned!
‘people would rather expand a 2 lane highway to a four lane at a cool million $ per mile rather than spend 3/4 of a million on a new public library.’
This old argument takes many forms the world over. A recent example here is where £200k was spent on public art which uplifts the spirit and provides a much needed landmark to an otherwise banal area. Why isn’t this money spent on doctors to enable more children to have heart operations. Different money, different pot.
Anyway talking of waste what about W’s Coronation costs? You could feed and shelter (insert arbitrary number) homeless people for that waste of money.
The inauguration in numbers
55 number of presidential inaugurations
$40 million. Total cost of the 55th inauguration
50 number of groups planning protests 3 number of days of official ceremony
10 number of official balls, including the first Commander-in-Chief Ball
44 number of companies and trade groups with stake in Bush administration policy and have donated the maximum $250,000 to inauguration costs
66 number of other companies and trade groups who have given more than $100,000 3 number of candlelit dinners for main donors
35 number of words in the presidential oath of office
60 number of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies involved in security
6,000 number of law enforcement agents on duty 7,000 number of troops on duty
1.7 number of miles along parade route from Capitol Hill to the White House
70 number of floats and groups in parade 10,000 number of participants in parade 250,000 number of inauguration tickets, all colour-coded and imbedded with secret security features, which took two months to print
$250 cost of seat at the swearing-in ceremony
$125 cost of seat for the parade in Pennsylvania Avenue
strawberry, that's $82.76 a sf. seems pretty low to me. that number in my area corresponds to snout house developer driven mass subdivision residential housing with hardi plank siding, vinyl windows and cheap, cheap carpet. for commercial interiors we try to advocate for $110 per sf, renovations are from $125-150 per sf. i'm in Portland, OR and things are reletively cheap out here.
how much is your library/ community center over budget?
yes devil dog, it is low. its still in very early DD phase and i am trying to determine constuction types and exterior and interior finishes along with an estimate. the community center (8,000 s.f. of total) portion would be cheaper per s.f. costs. where I am at, I would think it is cheaper than portland to build.
i'm not asking for help solving this problem, just looking for input as to how designers feel about how the cost of a building is decided and then these parameters are handed to them. i had another project come in just over budget earlier this week and it was seriously bare bones to start with. instead of raising the $30k needed or getting it rebid, we (me and principal arch) have to chop at it even more and it signficantly changes the project.
Again, not looking for advice - i'll get that interoffice, just thoughts on where priorities are regarding building. to me, a building is an investment, not a money making venture, or simply shelter. i'm afraid most of what we build in the US of A is so disposable that it is not worth caring about and the materials are devalued by being in this structure and the value of the building will continue to fall throughout it's lifecycle instead of increase. wrong wrong wrong. as an intern, i am more concerned with sustainability and nice properly planned buildings rather than "getting work" perhaps.
Jan 19, 05 1:01 pm ·
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The cost of buildings
do clients have unrealistic expectations for what buildings cost? how do they get the impression that they are "charities" when they are not and shouldn't have to pay for anything or believe architects and contractors are ripping them off?
personally, i believe that if there is anything we should be spending money on it is nice buildings. society doesn't share this belief.
around here, people would rather expand a 2 lane highway to a four lane at a cool million $ per mile rather than spend 3/4 of a million on a new public library. is there something amiss with the way buildings are funded and financed these days?
I think part of the problem has to do with the way people are living.
People use highways every day, without considering the impact they have on cities or the environment.
The majority of people don't take advantage of a great thing like a nice public library.
often times, the budgets are set far before the design team and architects are even thought of. most developers commission market research for private buildings to understand if what they want to do will be profitable (will the amount of risk and effort they're taking on pay off in the end). in these studies, they see what different types of square footages (residential condo studio/ 1br/2br/3br, retail, office, restaurant, etc) will rent or sell. this data is compiled by studying the adjacent areas. they take this information and use it to get financing from banks. then they take this 'money in hand' or a promise of a loan and hire a design team to design a building with that budget number. the architects have cost estimating done and low and behold, the estimates are much higher than their financing. often times, outside factors escalate the price of materials. steel prices for instance are still not stable. i've been told that prices for steel are only gauranteed for 24 hours by some fabricators. insurance, wages, cost of materials, transportation, fuel, etc. all factor into how much a project is. since the financing is based on data that sometimes is two years old or older, we're left with a building that is obsolete before we even begin to design it.
as for your library scenerio at $750k. . . at even $175 per sf, that's only a 4,286 sf library. pretty small. if you want a nice civic structure and a main library, 40,000 sf or larger is more like it. at $175 per sf, that's $7 mil. main branch libraries are usually much larger, like 75,000 or even 100,000 for a university library. the use of nice materials like wood, granite or even architectural concrete can drive the cost per sf up to $200 easily.
professional clients / developers know their costs with some friendly input from a QS. I don’t get that involved until the word ‘significant reduction’ is mentioned!
‘people would rather expand a 2 lane highway to a four lane at a cool million $ per mile rather than spend 3/4 of a million on a new public library.’
This old argument takes many forms the world over. A recent example here is where £200k was spent on public art which uplifts the spirit and provides a much needed landmark to an otherwise banal area. Why isn’t this money spent on doctors to enable more children to have heart operations. Different money, different pot.
Anyway talking of waste what about W’s Coronation costs? You could feed and shelter (insert arbitrary number) homeless people for that waste of money.
The inauguration in numbers
55 number of presidential inaugurations
$40 million. Total cost of the 55th inauguration
50 number of groups planning protests 3 number of days of official ceremony
10 number of official balls, including the first Commander-in-Chief Ball
44 number of companies and trade groups with stake in Bush administration policy and have donated the maximum $250,000 to inauguration costs
66 number of other companies and trade groups who have given more than $100,000 3 number of candlelit dinners for main donors
35 number of words in the presidential oath of office
60 number of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies involved in security
6,000 number of law enforcement agents on duty 7,000 number of troops on duty
1.7 number of miles along parade route from Capitol Hill to the White House
70 number of floats and groups in parade 10,000 number of participants in parade 250,000 number of inauguration tickets, all colour-coded and imbedded with secret security features, which took two months to print
$250 cost of seat at the swearing-in ceremony
$125 cost of seat for the parade in Pennsylvania Avenue
numbers from The Times (UK)
PS my library/community center project is 14,500 s.f. with a 1.2 mil budget and it was one of our architects that helped with the budgeting.
strawberry, that's $82.76 a sf. seems pretty low to me. that number in my area corresponds to snout house developer driven mass subdivision residential housing with hardi plank siding, vinyl windows and cheap, cheap carpet. for commercial interiors we try to advocate for $110 per sf, renovations are from $125-150 per sf. i'm in Portland, OR and things are reletively cheap out here.
how much is your library/ community center over budget?
yes devil dog, it is low. its still in very early DD phase and i am trying to determine constuction types and exterior and interior finishes along with an estimate. the community center (8,000 s.f. of total) portion would be cheaper per s.f. costs. where I am at, I would think it is cheaper than portland to build.
i'm not asking for help solving this problem, just looking for input as to how designers feel about how the cost of a building is decided and then these parameters are handed to them. i had another project come in just over budget earlier this week and it was seriously bare bones to start with. instead of raising the $30k needed or getting it rebid, we (me and principal arch) have to chop at it even more and it signficantly changes the project.
Again, not looking for advice - i'll get that interoffice, just thoughts on where priorities are regarding building. to me, a building is an investment, not a money making venture, or simply shelter. i'm afraid most of what we build in the US of A is so disposable that it is not worth caring about and the materials are devalued by being in this structure and the value of the building will continue to fall throughout it's lifecycle instead of increase. wrong wrong wrong. as an intern, i am more concerned with sustainability and nice properly planned buildings rather than "getting work" perhaps.
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