In the market for a proper espresso machine and wondering if there are any aficionados out there who could compare say, gaggia w. francis francis .... We're hoping to avoid those coffee pod/capsule types, and because we're splitting the cost we're looking to get something for under 400... Thoughts?
A really good entry-level single boiler machine is the Rancilio Miss Silvia. It is comparable with many of the professional quality machines, without any of the bells and whistles. It takes a while to master, as it's not as forgiving as some of the other entry level machines, but it's worth the effort.
Something to consider, though, is that $400 is on the very low end for a decent espresso machine, and even the best espresso machine in the world is worthless without a decent grinder, which starts at around $250. Don't consider wasting money on a cheap grinder or your espresso will be crap.
You are really looking at close to $1k for a quality entry-level machine and grinder combo. If you spend less, you'll end up regretting it later if you appreciate a high quality espresso.
Oh, another thing to consider is that you'll also have to invest in is a decent, heavy machined tamper (the ones that come with machines are useless), and if you plan on steaming milk you'll need a decent pitcher and probably a thermometer.
I've heard that the Mypressi makes a decent espresso, and there's the added bonus of minimal space requirement and portability, but you would still need a good grinder.
That's the real cost required if you want good espresso. Try to tack down used hardware if the cost is too high. The good machines will last forever.
If budget is an issue, I would recommend just making some nice drip coffee with a Chemex or Hario, for a very high quality-to-cost ratio, as long as you use good, fresh beans.
Come on, Paul, quit being so object-porn-yuppy-elitist in your advice. The kind of money you're lining up in your first post is just absurd for most people. Most of Italy makes perfectly good espresso at home with stove top mocha pots (as do I), available for very little, and a decent Braun grinder, available for around $60, does a wonderful job of grinding down your preferred beans. Yes, you don't get the steam foam finish of a bar espresso, but the key is having quality beans and that will get you to a perfectly good espresso.
If you think a stove top moka and $60 grinder makes good espresso, than that's all you need! I would rather drink a decent drip than that though. It's purely subjective. I appreciate good espresso, and have experimented with all sorts of preparations. The info I gave above is my opinion of the low-end set-up for a very good espresso.
Well, millions of Italians, doing so since Alfonso Bialetti developed it in 1933, also think so....but maybe you think Italians don't know their espresso.
Having a bad day Emilio? I love espresso, and I have made it and researched it way too much in the last few years, so I'm sharing what I know to help someone who is looking to invest some money in a decent set-up. I used to enjoy my Moka, and still do sometimes, but I don't put it in the same category as a classic espresso.
A perfect espresso requires the combination of the right temperature, pressure, beans and grind, and you simply cannot get a really great shot of espresso with much less than what I suggested above, unless you buy some used or manual equipment and practice a lot.
No reason to get so aggressive and defensive Emilio. Consider yourself lucky that your simple set-up keeps you satisfied. I wish that set-up was all I wanted.
Oh, come come, can't take a little tongue in cheek ribbing? I just like to tease people, especially on things Italian....I guess it comes off as aggressive if you're not looking at the person while he says it (drawback of Internet, I suppose). Yes, very true, top of the line espresso and mocha espresso are two different creatures, but they can both be delicious. I know a few tricks, passed down in every good Italian family, to make a mocha cup be pretty damn close to a machine "shot" in just plain goodness, so to your statement "you simply cannot get a really great shot of espresso with much less than what I suggested above", I'll just say "I don't know about a shot, but a good social cup of Italian coffee, which can even be sipped instead of gulped, can certainly be gotten" (all this through empirical experience, not research).
Oh, and again solely through experience, there is a relative of mine who bought a Braun (I believe) maker a few years back (which is sadly no longer in production) which makes two cups at a time, and which cost much less then the funds you outlined, and it makes an espresso shot as good as I've had anywhere, including Italian coffee bars (he grinds the beans with an inexpensive grinder). But my taste buds are not the same as your taste buds, and I grant yours may be more discerning.
Actually, Jerzy Franciszek Kulczycki, a Ukrainian who assisted in the Battle of Vienna, 1683, claimed a spoil of war after helping to defeat the Ottomans and drive Mustafa from Central Europe. While coffee was very uncommon and not widely known, Kulczycki's familiarity with coffee lead him to claim Mustafa's coffee shipment as his spoil as he was aware of the tremendous value it had.
Kulczycki then opened a coffeehouse in Vienna around 1686. While he did use mortar ground coffee, the coffee was sieved and then mixed with milk and sugar as he did not want his coffee to be associated with the Ottomans.
Similar styles of coffee also developed in France, England and Italy where straining and mixing with dairy were common as Viennese cuisine was rapidly spreading around Europe at the time.
James, who do you mean by "Mustafa" ? Your reference of Mustafa as a single generic person of Eastern culture or an attributed placeholder of Ottoman Empire, a vizier or a pasha perhaps? If latter, correct reference is Köprülü Kara Mustafa Pasha, a field commander if you will, a brother in law of Köprülü Fazıl Mustafa Pasha, a more famed vizier from Köprülü family of Albanian Ottoman viziers. People were not called by their first name only, like, Osama or Ahmed or Omar... Don't be so lazy and resort to these types of Wikipedia based partial histories... You can do better than that.
Also, before they found the battlefield booty, they had embassadors and other social and trade exchanges between Istanbul and Vienna and various other European diplomats and visitors. Yes there were bilingual travelers and such in even 17 th. century and before. And certainly, these people were hosted and drank coffee and entertained in Topkapi Palace or other beautiful places when they visited.
But anyway, Turkish coffee (you can call Arabic, Lebanese, Armenian or Greek, whatever you want, I don't care, but it is most widely consumed in Turkey than anywhere else on earth) is actually very easy to make and one can master it quite fast. It is precision borderline boiling of masterfully roasted and grinded coffee (an absolute necessity for any good coffee anywhere and culture) while stirring it in the ideal temperature and made by minimum apparatus. I think more than coffee itself, people from east introduced a social culture that was morphed beautifully into what we now call cafe culture. Coffee houses existed and flourished with plush and interesting spatial offerings with people drinking coffee and tea, smoking tobacco, opium, cannabis, watching a performance and simply enjoying conversation and other social exchanges in the Ottoman Empire.
Now, there is a whole different story on tulips and their hijacking by the Royal Dutch dignitaries. ;.)
Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha, grand vizier of the Ottoman Empire from 1676 to1683. In most European texts related to the era of failed Ottoman expansion into the Austrian-Habsburg Empire, he is referred to as Mustafa, Minister Mustafa or General Mustafa.This particular battle is important because it makes the end of Ottoman rule and the overall decline of the Ottoman empire.
Don't be so lazy and resort to these types of Wikipedia based partial histories... You can do better than that.
Except I learned this at Starbucks. It was printed on the back of a bag of coffee. The reason coffee never caught on in Europe prior to the 17th-century was primarily that Europe has this thing called wine. And beer. And liquor. And tea but that's not too important.
And coffee was occasionally known to Europe since the Medieval era as the Christian Kingdom of Axum was primarily one of the largest trading powers between Africa, the Middle East and Europe. It's also conveniently the place where all the world's coffee came from.
You're just being mildly ethnocentric about this and it irked me.
Except you got that picture from a website talking about a book talking about Turkish coffeehouses in Istanbul. And there's not a single caption accompanying it.
When I moved to Los Angeles in late seventies, if you wanted to have an espresso, you went to one of the very few restaurants where they had an esprosso machine. Tasteless drip coffee was all there was. It was so bad that even McDonald's coffee was better than the most.
My friends have a Rancilio Miss Silvia machine Paul has mentioned. One of them is a chef and she knows what she is talking about when it comes to kitchen tools. I love the machine when I stay in their place.. Really utilitarian, easy to clean and makes great coffee.
Hey, I drank instant coffee today. Sometimes I crave it. Nescafe and hot milk is great coffee too. Thanks to space technology.
I am glad you looked up man... It should not be hard to right click and let google bring it up in no time, it also shows little respectful determination to find out for the conversation's sake.
And those particular battlefield histories and names involving Turks and Ottomans, I learned them starting in elementary school and on, in increasing details and complexity of the texts. Not in Starbucks.., but hey, good for you.. At least you are reading them and curious about it. Ottoman history is quite fascinating one..
you are a better man than I Orhan, both coming from long standing coffee cultures. It would break my heart if I even considered drinking instant (which I have done more than I care to admit).
But Paul hit the nail on the head. It's down to the details. The components are where the flavour lies boiling at the right temperature, grinding the beans to a near pulverised state and having a dark enough roasted bean (that's not burnt) helps a great deal too.
I've removed the thought or hope of owning an espresso machine in my life. The ones that admire sadly fall into the house downpayment category. Although I walked into a dept store recently and they were selling Krups for $59
espresso machine
In the market for a proper espresso machine and wondering if there are any aficionados out there who could compare say, gaggia w. francis francis .... We're hoping to avoid those coffee pod/capsule types, and because we're splitting the cost we're looking to get something for under 400... Thoughts?
A really good entry-level single boiler machine is the Rancilio Miss Silvia. It is comparable with many of the professional quality machines, without any of the bells and whistles. It takes a while to master, as it's not as forgiving as some of the other entry level machines, but it's worth the effort.
Something to consider, though, is that $400 is on the very low end for a decent espresso machine, and even the best espresso machine in the world is worthless without a decent grinder, which starts at around $250. Don't consider wasting money on a cheap grinder or your espresso will be crap.
You are really looking at close to $1k for a quality entry-level machine and grinder combo. If you spend less, you'll end up regretting it later if you appreciate a high quality espresso.
Oh, another thing to consider is that you'll also have to invest in is a decent, heavy machined tamper (the ones that come with machines are useless), and if you plan on steaming milk you'll need a decent pitcher and probably a thermometer.
Holy cow. You might as well start your own meth lab for half the price.
I've heard that the Mypressi makes a decent espresso, and there's the added bonus of minimal space requirement and portability, but you would still need a good grinder.
That's the real cost required if you want good espresso. Try to tack down used hardware if the cost is too high. The good machines will last forever.
If budget is an issue, I would recommend just making some nice drip coffee with a Chemex or Hario, for a very high quality-to-cost ratio, as long as you use good, fresh beans.
Come on, Paul, quit being so object-porn-yuppy-elitist in your advice. The kind of money you're lining up in your first post is just absurd for most people. Most of Italy makes perfectly good espresso at home with stove top mocha pots (as do I), available for very little, and a decent Braun grinder, available for around $60, does a wonderful job of grinding down your preferred beans. Yes, you don't get the steam foam finish of a bar espresso, but the key is having quality beans and that will get you to a perfectly good espresso.
If you think a stove top moka and $60 grinder makes good espresso, than that's all you need! I would rather drink a decent drip than that though. It's purely subjective. I appreciate good espresso, and have experimented with all sorts of preparations. The info I gave above is my opinion of the low-end set-up for a very good espresso.
Well, millions of Italians, doing so since Alfonso Bialetti developed it in 1933, also think so....but maybe you think Italians don't know their espresso.
Having a bad day Emilio? I love espresso, and I have made it and researched it way too much in the last few years, so I'm sharing what I know to help someone who is looking to invest some money in a decent set-up. I used to enjoy my Moka, and still do sometimes, but I don't put it in the same category as a classic espresso.
A perfect espresso requires the combination of the right temperature, pressure, beans and grind, and you simply cannot get a really great shot of espresso with much less than what I suggested above, unless you buy some used or manual equipment and practice a lot.
No reason to get so aggressive and defensive Emilio. Consider yourself lucky that your simple set-up keeps you satisfied. I wish that set-up was all I wanted.
Oh, come come, can't take a little tongue in cheek ribbing? I just like to tease people, especially on things Italian....I guess it comes off as aggressive if you're not looking at the person while he says it (drawback of Internet, I suppose). Yes, very true, top of the line espresso and mocha espresso are two different creatures, but they can both be delicious. I know a few tricks, passed down in every good Italian family, to make a mocha cup be pretty damn close to a machine "shot" in just plain goodness, so to your statement "you simply cannot get a really great shot of espresso with much less than what I suggested above", I'll just say "I don't know about a shot, but a good social cup of Italian coffee, which can even be sipped instead of gulped, can certainly be gotten" (all this through empirical experience, not research).
Oh, and again solely through experience, there is a relative of mine who bought a Braun (I believe) maker a few years back (which is sadly no longer in production) which makes two cups at a time, and which cost much less then the funds you outlined, and it makes an espresso shot as good as I've had anywhere, including Italian coffee bars (he grinds the beans with an inexpensive grinder). But my taste buds are not the same as your taste buds, and I grant yours may be more discerning.
Sorry for the "aggressiveness".
what kind of coffee italians were drinking before the invention of espresso machine? maybe this?
Actually, Jerzy Franciszek Kulczycki, a Ukrainian who assisted in the Battle of Vienna, 1683, claimed a spoil of war after helping to defeat the Ottomans and drive Mustafa from Central Europe. While coffee was very uncommon and not widely known, Kulczycki's familiarity with coffee lead him to claim Mustafa's coffee shipment as his spoil as he was aware of the tremendous value it had.
Kulczycki then opened a coffeehouse in Vienna around 1686. While he did use mortar ground coffee, the coffee was sieved and then mixed with milk and sugar as he did not want his coffee to be associated with the Ottomans.
Similar styles of coffee also developed in France, England and Italy where straining and mixing with dairy were common as Viennese cuisine was rapidly spreading around Europe at the time.
James, who do you mean by "Mustafa" ? Your reference of Mustafa as a single generic person of Eastern culture or an attributed placeholder of Ottoman Empire, a vizier or a pasha perhaps? If latter, correct reference is Köprülü Kara Mustafa Pasha, a field commander if you will, a brother in law of Köprülü Fazıl Mustafa Pasha, a more famed vizier from Köprülü family of Albanian Ottoman viziers. People were not called by their first name only, like, Osama or Ahmed or Omar... Don't be so lazy and resort to these types of Wikipedia based partial histories... You can do better than that.
Also, before they found the battlefield booty, they had embassadors and other social and trade exchanges between Istanbul and Vienna and various other European diplomats and visitors. Yes there were bilingual travelers and such in even 17 th. century and before. And certainly, these people were hosted and drank coffee and entertained in Topkapi Palace or other beautiful places when they visited.
But anyway, Turkish coffee (you can call Arabic, Lebanese, Armenian or Greek, whatever you want, I don't care, but it is most widely consumed in Turkey than anywhere else on earth) is actually very easy to make and one can master it quite fast. It is precision borderline boiling of masterfully roasted and grinded coffee (an absolute necessity for any good coffee anywhere and culture) while stirring it in the ideal temperature and made by minimum apparatus. I think more than coffee itself, people from east introduced a social culture that was morphed beautifully into what we now call cafe culture. Coffee houses existed and flourished with plush and interesting spatial offerings with people drinking coffee and tea, smoking tobacco, opium, cannabis, watching a performance and simply enjoying conversation and other social exchanges in the Ottoman Empire.
Now, there is a whole different story on tulips and their hijacking by the Royal Dutch dignitaries. ;.)
A Turkish coffee house drawn by a European artist in early 19 th. century. On the left is the area where the coffee was made.
Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha, grand vizier of the Ottoman Empire from 1676 to1683. In most European texts related to the era of failed Ottoman expansion into the Austrian-Habsburg Empire, he is referred to as Mustafa, Minister Mustafa or General Mustafa.This particular battle is important because it makes the end of Ottoman rule and the overall decline of the Ottoman empire.
Don't be so lazy and resort to these types of Wikipedia based partial histories... You can do better than that.
Except I learned this at Starbucks. It was printed on the back of a bag of coffee. The reason coffee never caught on in Europe prior to the 17th-century was primarily that Europe has this thing called wine. And beer. And liquor. And tea but that's not too important.
And coffee was occasionally known to Europe since the Medieval era as the Christian Kingdom of Axum was primarily one of the largest trading powers between Africa, the Middle East and Europe. It's also conveniently the place where all the world's coffee came from.
You're just being mildly ethnocentric about this and it irked me.
Except you got that picture from a website talking about a book talking about Turkish coffeehouses in Istanbul. And there's not a single caption accompanying it.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=tr&u=http://www.mimarizm.com/KentinTozu/Makale.aspx%3Fid%3D182%26sid%3D174&ei=8bEbTrKEJsGy0AHO0PHHBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkahvehane%2Bmimarisi%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D2gT%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divnsfd
Don't be so lazy and resort to these types of Wikipedia based partial histories... You can do better than that.
Hmph.
Another view.
When I moved to Los Angeles in late seventies, if you wanted to have an espresso, you went to one of the very few restaurants where they had an esprosso machine. Tasteless drip coffee was all there was. It was so bad that even McDonald's coffee was better than the most.
My friends have a Rancilio Miss Silvia machine Paul has mentioned. One of them is a chef and she knows what she is talking about when it comes to kitchen tools. I love the machine when I stay in their place.. Really utilitarian, easy to clean and makes great coffee.
Hey, I drank instant coffee today. Sometimes I crave it. Nescafe and hot milk is great coffee too. Thanks to space technology.
I am glad you looked up man... It should not be hard to right click and let google bring it up in no time, it also shows little respectful determination to find out for the conversation's sake.
And those particular battlefield histories and names involving Turks and Ottomans, I learned them starting in elementary school and on, in increasing details and complexity of the texts. Not in Starbucks.., but hey, good for you.. At least you are reading them and curious about it. Ottoman history is quite fascinating one..
you are a better man than I Orhan, both coming from long standing coffee cultures. It would break my heart if I even considered drinking instant (which I have done more than I care to admit).
But Paul hit the nail on the head. It's down to the details. The components are where the flavour lies boiling at the right temperature, grinding the beans to a near pulverised state and having a dark enough roasted bean (that's not burnt) helps a great deal too.
I've removed the thought or hope of owning an espresso machine in my life. The ones that admire sadly fall into the house downpayment category. Although I walked into a dept store recently and they were selling Krups for $59
Mum's restaurant uses a Jura, though I'm not sure which model. She's had customers walk two or three blocks in the rain just for the coffee.
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