I went to Rice, and while I wasnt all that excited about Houston, it has its charm. Its very large, but the pockets (like the one around Rice) are nice. I dont know much about Penn's program, but Rice is very theoretical as well. They do have a building workshop, but I would say for the most part the design falls more into the blah blah blah. And I dont recall an architectural film library. That must be new.

i would go to rice instead. i could give you a lot of reasons why this would be, but trust me you'll be happier at rice.

Le bossman,

What timing!...because I too am under a similar dilemma between Rice, Penn, and MIT. My portfolio CD got all screwed up so I only have enough applications for two of the schools and my application for MIT is already 4 weeks late since I didn’t even consider applying till last week....hum.

Penn and MIT are both very interesting programs that are on their way up...however both coast over 60,000.

I would apply to both schools and then decide.
there's no sure bet that you'll get into either one.

Yes to the above! please apply to both schools. if you have to ask for a fee waiver. but compared to the financial cost of architecture school, $85 is a small fee to throw your hat in the ring.

later on, you can do more research or possibly go look at a few schools for yourself.

After searching around for another option (to replace Penn), I think U of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana looks more interesting than either one right now... They have some really interesting dual degree programs, like the M.Arch + MSCE (civil engineering) for just one extra semester.

If anyone knows anthing about their programs I'd be happy to hear it. I don't see a student blog...

Marc

considering one of your concerns was the city itself, and that Houston paled in comparison to Philly -- Champaign-Urbana is really quite literally in the middle of nowhere stick-ville. Sure Chicago and StL are a couple hours away, but that's not time you'll have. Again though, if you anticpate spending all your time in studio, it may not matter anyway. The program there has always been fairly "practical" in its orientation, ie, no "blah blah blah"

rice is a way, way better school than penn or mit for the amount that you pay for it. also, i feel at least that the quality of life in the hermon park area is much better than philly or the part of boston mit is in. also, everybody always talks about how theoretical rice is, and certainly there is theory in lars lerups urbanism, but everyone who goes there contradicts that it is a theoretical school. lars was one of my visiting instructors and he always proported it to be a school that was more on the technical side. apply to both schools, and i'm not in love with rice or anything, but i personally would go there over penn. mit is 60k? rice is free. what has attracted you to these three schools anyway? please don't say the name.

db> You're absolutely right about UIC being in the sticks... I've been in St. Louis for the past ten years so I'm aware of it. But the school's program is more important to me than the location, ultimately. It's interesting to hear an opposing viewpoint on Rice (ie., that it is not so heavily theoretical)... and I am tempted to apply. I'd like to apply to both UIC and Rice now, but I only have enough recommendations for one of them. Otherwise I'd have to send them one with Penn's form included, and that might not be the best strategy...

Marc

bossman>

I looked at many of the top schools (yes, based on name) to see which would offer me the type of education that I am looking for. Name is important to others in the field, so why shouldn't it be important to me. The big-name schools also offer an excellent education. But in particular, I'm looking for a good balance of theory and practicality. I ruled out Columbia and Parsons after visiting. I was going to apply to Penn and then visit later (I have a cousin in Philly) but I've become disenchanted, mainly because of their website of student work. I also have University of Kansas on the list, for a number of reasons. I'm interested in U Cincinnati for their coop program. Etc, etc.

So the decision is now between UIC and Rice... have to send the app today. We'll see.

Marc

mpsyp,

I am currently in the preceptroship year of Rice's BArch program. It is an excellent school, and has great theoretical and practical resources. The school is small, which leads the way for some pros and cons. The pros are, the faculty (most of them) are fairly accessible, the students in your program are not just nameless faces (unless you want them to be), the university (as a whole) is excellent, etc.

The cons are because the program is small there are some facilities (I am thinking about the woodshop and computer labs in particular) that are lacking certain things that I think would be there in a larger school. I have visited the Rice website. It is quite enchanting, but I would have to say that the part about the materials lab is a stretch. The woodshop technician is amazingly helpful though, so what is lost on flashy machines is gained on knowledge of how to do things. The film library might exist withing the Art, Architecture, and Music part of the University library...

Rice Building Workshop is an excellent program. Houston is actually not that bad. I think it will grow on you in a weird way. I don't know the case with graduate students in the architecture program, but I know in a lot of the other departments, if you get in, you get a full scholarship. If you get in, and this is the case, I would use your money to buy a car (you will need it there).

Marc--

since you're in StL, I emailed you with an offer to meet and talk more about your choices.

you may also want to consider University of Kansas (which is certainly comperable to Champaign-Urbana) and would be cheap since MO residents get in-state rates. They do also have a really good design-build studio that's gotten some notoriety. The folks I know from there are pretty sharp for the most part.

Sahar --

Thanks for the info. The materials lab does look a little bit weaker than most of the schools I have visited. Yale's was amazing. They have a full multi-axis CNC machine, among other things. MIT has got a plastics lab that is pretty impressive. Harvard's was good all around and very spacious. Rice does seem to be lacking somewhat in this department.

The finances are a big incentive, though. Let's say I don't get in to my top choice. It may come down to getting a really good education at a drastically reduced cost. I could live with that. :-) That's actually why I'm applying to several other schools as well. A good mix of the "pipe dream" schools and the good schools with good financial packages. Who knows if I'll get into any of them! Might as well try, though.

P.S. Rice does have laser cutters for model making, right?

db > U of Kansas was the school that got me thinking seriously about going back to school for architecture, for those very reasons. It's definitely on my list and I will be applying. I have a friend from KC and know a few graduates that are now working in STL and Chicago. I'm going to visit some time in the next few months to see the school, meet the profs, etc. I saw Dan Rockhill speak at Wash U and it was inspiring, even if he was a bit overblown... :-)

I'd love to chat some time, though. You're in St. Louis? Feel free to e-mail me. Perhaps we have already met at some point.

Marc

"It's expensive to apply ($85)..."
That's no reason not to. Everybody has $85 lying around somewhere. Including broke-ass me <goes off to sell dollhouses>

rather fortunately i don't think rice has a laser cutter, at least there wasn't any evidence of one being used in the models i saw. there weren't any crappy burned edges; just crisp, well crafted models. i think that the students at rice have a much better toward craft than the ones that regularly utilize laser cutters.

make that 'ethic' toward craft

Interesting... maybe with the money I save on tuition I can buy my own laser cutter and rent it to all my fellow classmates... heheheh. Just kidding, boss.

Marc

from what I've heard and seen, Rice is incredibly competitive for the grad programs, esp. option II which I applied for. i think its more competitive than Harvard (at least by numbers).

Well then... let the games begin!

Marc

info on penndesign from a penndesign student:

money:

i have a $5500 grant per year. not a free ride, but it does make a dent in my tuition bill. yes, penn is expensive, but i believe that in the long-term it will be worth it. my classmates are all talented people, and i think that we have all learned a great deal from eachother. i wouldn't trade in the time i have spent here for anything.

design ethos:

penn has a very eclectic roster of critics that is constantly changing. i too am turned off by archibabble (i.e. "hyperconsumerism and the modalities of electronic infrastructure as reinterpreted typographical visual representations, lending credence to new modalities of thought in virtual built environments"), and i have had a very productive and enjoyable time here. i just completed a studio with scott erdy (www.em-arc.com), and i think that he would have laughed at me if i said anything like that. remember, the academics who put together these school websites need to impress eachother with their vacuous verbal diarrhea. you'll find that in a lot of schools. i also believe that our permanent faculty is one of the best and most eclectic in the country. consider david leatherbarrow, david delong, witold rybcynski, winka dubbeldam, enrique norten, ali rahim, and both kieran and timberlake. look at their websites. there are links at http://www.design.upenn.edu/new/arch/faculty.php re: comments about student work on the website: this is just a drop in the sea of work that comes out of this school every year. VISIT THE SCHOOL. WALK THROUGH OUR STUDIOS. i guarantee that you will find a wide arrange of inciteful and exciting work. perhaps we could do a better job of representing our diversity online (detlef, if you're reading this...hint hint!)

the neighborhood:

penn is located in university city (codename for the gentrified section of west philly). although univ. city lacks diversity (it is full of penn and drexel students), it is a great place to live. penn recently built a new high school (which the university funds) that has turned what was once the 3rd worst school district in pa into one of the top five. this savvy move has brought families back into the neighborhood, which has generated an explosion in local commerce (and increased rents--i pay $750/month for a one bedroom but this is a bit high). again, VISIT PENN! take a walk around the neighborhood. it is a beautiful and quiet place to live (unless you're the temple med student who was murdered over break by a jealous ex-girlfriend who is a wharton undergrad;). univ. city is also in close proximity to center city (the part of philly with the skyscrapers, indep. hall, etc.). one can walk to center city from meyerson hall (the arch building) in about 15 minutes. a ten minute cab ride can get you across the city to second street and the delaware river. the penn campus is also arguably the most beautiful urban campus in the country.

for the name whores:

if you're worried about cachet, name brand et al, you can't get much better than this place. we're old, we're ivy league, and design intelligence says we're number three. if you're a snob (as many architects are), you can't go wrong.

the students:

i'm not gonna lie: this place isn't kindergarden. you're not going to have someone patting your back every two minutes, but the student body is not cutthroat. for the most part, the competitive spirit in the studios here is very healthy, and people are always helping eachother out. i have a lot of great friends here, and there are also a bunch of people who i probably will never see again after graduation. the point is that you will find your niche here. there is no one pennpersonality.

mpsyp--drop me an email. i can answer any questions or direct you to someone better informed to help you.

Emperor- some of the kidz in my crew are going to Penn next year. You said there's 'no diversity'. Are there other Azns there? I don't want my friends to have no backup when racists jump them.

when i wrote "diversity", i meant that univ. city is lacking in the non-student department. i wasn't referring to ethnic diversity. actually, penn is an incredibly diverse place in terms of its non-caucasion population. and as far as asians are concerned, i would venture to say that they are the majority ethnic group on campus. i'm actually a non-asian white male chinophile: hence the name. my class has a huge percentage of asian students, especially those from taiwan, korea, and hk. there is also a contingent of mainlanders within the department. one of them and i worked at an international chinese-owned firm in shanghai last summer. i wouldn't worry about racism here. we're open to everyone.

Well, I feel a bit foolish for having aired my doubts and solicited advice from strangers on a decision as important as this, but it has helped me a great deal. After a bout of waffling I will, in fact, apply to Penn as originally planned.

The public schools are on my list as safeties and to round out the types of programs, as well as for financial considerations. I also applied to Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U of Cincinnati.

I really appreciate your thorough response, Xiao, because it dispels my doubts about the program. I really was impressed with the faculty and I should have gone with that, instead of judging solely from the selected student work on the website. Everybody always says, look at the student work. So it gave me pause. But I think that I am better off applying to Penn and visiting my cousin and the school, so that when my rejection letter comes I'll know that I really wanted to go there. :-)

The quote about the "GWB School of Architecture" is enough to make me run screaming. :-) But no, seriously, I don't think that I could ever bring myself to move to Dallas, and I should have known that. I was accepted at Rice for undergrad and didn't even consider it because it was in Dallas. Austin I might consider, if only for its filmmaking and music scenes, and because I have heard a lot more positive things...

Okay, I'll stop rambling. Hopefully someone experiencing the same uncertainties will stumble across this thread and take comfort in knowing that they're not alone.

Marc

it's in houston....and rice is da bomb....I want to be a cowboy.

and the thing about mit...(looking at student work) though only slightly off topic...is that all of the projects are made of bass wood...and the site only shows models....and poorly crafted models at that....I donno....I love their visual arts department but overall the program seems restrictive...am I wrong?

Thanks Marc, this thread has been very helpful...Penn's open house gave me the impression of "blobby graphic design-y hyperconsumerism and the modalities of electronic infrastructure as reinterpreted typographical visual representations, lending credence to new modalities of thought in virtual built environments" but the students seemed balanced and down-to earth, the facilities are good, and Xiao's words were reassuring.

i should a learned to rode around

Right, Houston, Dallas... honestly, is there much difference?

I went to Penn because of the size of the classes and the breadth of the faculty. When they're running 5 or 6 studios each semester, each filling out a wide spectrum of interests, it's easier to find one's niche while still being exposed to and exploring other ways of approaching process. For that reason, I think it's a wonderful program for people who had no architecture background (like myself) and can bring in other disciplines. A lot of respect is given to the students here in terms of self-directed education and the creative synthesis of ideas.

I've also heard nothing but good things about Rice's program, but don't know much otherwise (apparently it's da bomb). I agree with the above posters, you'd be cheating yourself not to apply to both and then visit once you see where you get in.

That brings up an interesting point... several of the schools I am applying to require a commitment by April 15th. Considering that most schools don't mail acceptance letters until April 1st, that doesn't leave much time for visiting schools (especially if you can't book a ticket in advance). Any thoughts? Does this tend to work out differently in actuality? (I.e., acceptance letters are generally mailed earlier, commitment dates are flexible, etc.)

Marc

I am posting this response to comment on Rice second hand. A former professor and dear friend of mine warned me that Rice has become a bit devoid of fresh faculty and lively student interaction in the past couple years.

He routinely lectures there and gives crits. He has had a good relationship with the school itself, for a long time. He advised against it for me becuase he knows me, but the parts i am sharing likely apply to everyone.

I hope that helps.

marc

when i applied to m.arch programs last year, i had heard all of the responses weeks before the april 1st date they tell you

i'm not sure if they send out admissions responses at different times throughout the process or if they wait until every single one is decided to send them all out at the same time, but you can probably expect to hear earlier than the dates they tell you.

mpsyp,

Rice does not have a laser cutter, unless they got it this past fall. I am not sure where they would put it since the woodshop is small and already full. You can get things laser cut in Houston if you have the cash.

There is a difference between Houston and Dallas. a) Houston is a blue collar city as opposed to Dallas b) Houston has a huge industrial sector, which is cool if you want to play around with fabrication

I can make a list of why Houston is not that bad, but I will hold off unless you decide to go there. (You should see the post "What is there to do in Houston?")

mpsyp,

Last year Rice's woodshop consisted of a table saw, mini-table saw, mitre saw, chop saw, two band saws, two sanding machines, a planar, a drum sander, a router, a drill press, the saw that looks like a sewing machine (I can't think of othe name right now), a vacuum former, various hand held tools (hammers, drills, sanders, jig saws, circular saw, etc).

The woodshop technician does a lot of art and industrial design on the side so he can help you do thing if you talk to him. He is probably the best resource in the woodshop.

No CNC machine or laser cutter.

I was just being a bit snarky re: dallas vs. houston... I just get them mixed up because I don't know that much about either of them. Anyway, I ended up applying to Penn instead of Rice. Cincinnati went out today, so I've only got one left to go! Now to fill out those financial aid forms...

Marc

Lazer cutter, sure but Rice is going to get a mechanical bull way before Penn ever will.

Speaking of UPenn . . . does anyone know if the school offers a joint degree program with Wharton for MBA. I know UMich does this and it's only 3 years to receive both the M.Arch and the MBA. What other programs offer a similar package?

Not sure where the latest rankins for MArch put UPenn and Rice but I know both were up there. I'd venture a guess that your degree at either place would be very decent. So then it all comes down to city.

Honestly, I think you can make the most of any city. Both Philly and Houston have their very obvious pitfalls and benefits. They are both large - Houston #4 and Philly #5 biggest cities in America. Houston is unquestionably growing at a brisk pace while Philly's population and growth is relatively stagnant. Philly is close to NYC and Atlantic City while Houston is close to New Orleans and South Padre. Houston is very hot and humid while Philly gets both hot and cold. Cost of living is probably less in Texas but wouldn't think it anything significant. Houston has a new light rail that doesn't go very many places. Philly has a decrepit SEPTA that is no comparison to DC or NYC subways. Both have massive new stadiums. Shall I go on?

Honestly - on paper one could make both cities look almost alike.

What's this talk of applying to schools 4 wks after the due date? Was I totally naive in stressing to get these apps in by the due date?

Well, when I originally posted the due date for Penn was 5 days away and yes, I was stressing about due dates... I got all of my apps in on time. I think some schools are a little bit lenient on due dates, but I wouldn't risk it personally. I know that you definitely have to get financial aid info in by the due date. (Feb 1st seems to be the critical date for mose institutions...)

Marc

Thanks Marc!- Glad to hear it wasn't all for naught.

I should add, for instance, that I overnighted my Harvard app on Dec. 24th (due date was Monday the 27th) and it didn't arrive until the 28th because ice storms delayed the FedEx delivery. I spoke to Harvard admissions and they didn't have a problem with it, I'm sure mine wasn't the only one that didn't make it. Also, I had missed the one-page "Supplement" form (listing academic prerequisites) but it they didn't pull an attitude, they just asked me to fax it to them.

But yeah, I think it's important to hit the due dates if at all possible, if only just to show that you are capable of completing projects on time and under budget. :-)

Marc