I was recently invited for a presentation of Autodesk's Revit new release, version 6. I was quite impressed about the potential of this piece of software, how it [almost] covers the whole range of project developing: plans, sections, measurements, costs estimates, 3D... in only one drawing...
We recently finished a large (200,000 sf) renovation in Revit 5.1. Personally I find the structure and organization of the software to be very intuitive though there is definitely a learning curve when working on large projects with multiple users. With this particular project, we took it all the way through CDs though we did use 2D CAD for detailing. To maintain consistency, we imported the CAD drawings into the Revit file. It was a bit of a struggle at the end but we managed to get the drawings out the door. With projects of this size, the file can get very large which, as you can imagine, makes working with it very slow. One thing we realized is that when using this type of software, there is a definite compulsion to model everything as accurately as possible. Since this was a renovation, we spent a lot of time modeling the existing building, partially for the challenge and partially because we thought we’d eventually need that level of detail. While this helped us better understand the building, in the end we wasted a lot of time on areas that weren’t necessarily relevant to the final drawings and the file grew needlessly large. In a practical sense, the notion of a complete building information model is a bit inaccurate since, in a lot of cases, you're still producing 2D documents and as such, building the model to support these drawings. To build a fully representative building information model would require a great deal of time and resources, most likely beyond the scope of a typical architectural services contract. We are now starting some smaller projects in Revit 6.1, mostly interior renovations. There’s definitely a lot of potential in the software, particularly when you look at extracting more information out of the database. A number of people in the construction industry are using Revit to produce more accurate quantity takeoffs, which brings up some pretty interesting issues regarding collaboration and project delivery. We’re a couple of years from switching over completely to Revit (or some other BIM software) but so far the results have been promising.
We have used Revit for our primary production package since October of last year, and the experience has been good, but not without problems. The above entry touched on a big one, the tendancy to model more than you really need to. But there are times when the ability to model an element and pull 2d projections off it is invaluable. I am currently working on a theater that has a sloping and curving floor with seats following the curve in plan. In Autocad, or on paper, I'd never worry about what those seats looked like in elevation as they rotated, but with the model, you can read the curved seating in the elevations and sections.
There is still a lot of drafting type work involved, mostly layering detail on top of the plan or section view that get generated from the model, but it's easier than starting with a blank drawing.
You can download the full program, you just can't save anything. But you can look at the sample projects that come with it.
Overall, I wouldn't want to go back to 2d drafting.
I agree with Frit. Having used Revit, I'm reluctant to go back to 2D drafting. This sentiment was also echoed by the other members of the project team. While the software can be frustrating and it's not ideally suited for all projects, Revit is ultimately more rewarding than any 2D package I've worked with.
What does revit costs? Not that I would run out a buy it but I would consider getting some training so I could determine what it has to offer for my work. And what the difference from Architectural desktop?
It's around $5000 a seat, and since it's Autodesk, you gotta pay an annual subscription fee. But, in the 7 months we've been using it, we've had two major updates and about 6 smaller ones, so at least you get something for it.
As far as ADT goes, in concept they do similar things, but ADT can never be a true building modeller because it's built on Autocad and it's various limitations. Autodesk will tell you they are targeting different markets with the two products and they plan to keep developing both, but I don't buy it. I'd expect to see ADT gradually look more and more like Revit until they can transition the user base over.
The thing that gets glossed over a lot is that the 2d drafting functions in Revit are also parametric, which means that when your enlarged toilet plan switches from 1/8 to 1/4, dimensions and text adjust accordingly. Or if the wall in your head detail goes to a 6" stud, the frame adjusts to the new width. Little things, but they add up. And after about three days you can draft in it just as well as Autocad. So it's not like you have to abandon your whole way of working.
Damn, I just read this and I sound like a salesman, but I really do enjoy working with this way more than plain cad.
Something I wrote for the previous incarnation of Archnect but parts are still relavent.
Had a Revit seminar by our AutoDesk re-sellers (Bastards) the other week. Things have moved on a lot since I reviewed the program for our company a couple of years back. As far a parametric modelling goes it is the market leader and is getting better as an all-round design and construction tool (more intelligent / more flexible).
At my school of Architecture computer were frowned upon during the degree course as the user complexities of the computer language still tend to inhibit the simplicity of the creative process and generation of ideas. The design studios were focused upon the brain to hand to pencil as the simplest and most expressive design tool.
The diploma school was more of a free reign with all mediums available (Photoshop & AutoCAD R12-14 in those days). No formal teaching was given to computers and they were simply there if you wanted to use them.
Back to topic, Revit is good for Architecture however it is not an education tool in the expressive sense. The intelligent block system used can construct and detail a simple building and produce all the required drawings at the press of a button, and from which you would learn little as the process, exploration, the frustration, the pain, and the result as to some extent the parameters of the design are digitally predefined in advance. More complex structures require advanced detail design of block parameters and therefore are a hindrance to the innocent and free (Architecture Students not those at the practice coal face).
Computers aid the visualisation of the creative vision however the ability to visualise and explore the design in sketches and other simple media is vital to Architecture.
I’d rather sketch the new evolving ideals in front of the client on the back of a cigarette packet (envelope for the politically correct) than wheel in a computer in to do the dirty work.
Roll you sleeves up and sharpen those pencils for the moment!
Anarchitect - fully compatable accross Autodesk platforms including scripted converstion filters for non standard platforms (e.g. layer conversion as Revit has no layers)
While 2d drawings can flow back and forth between Revit and ADT or Autocad easily, the 3d models do not. The Revit model is not compatible with the ADT model. You can bring in basic 3d elements from Autocad, and 3d Studio files if you import to Autocad and save as dwg, but as far as I can tell it's a one way street. Revit does not export 3d information.
Shit. That's bad news.... I always like to use MAX to enhamce presentations [better rendering engine/animations, xtras, etc...]. It seems strange since they belong to the same software house....
While it's never been officially announced, I think everyone expects Viz Render to eventually replace Accurender as Revit's rendering engine. I don't know much about Viz Render, but maybe that process will result in more compatability.
Yes, though Viz Render only works with ADT. You can't buy Viz Render separately and I believe it has a different file format from the full-scale version of Viz. They stripped out a lot of the modeling feature, since all of that is done in ADT. As for using Viz with Revit, AutoDesk put out a white paper some time ago about importing Revit files into Viz. I never tried it but from what I read, it was a reasonably easy process. Unfortunately it's not a live link so if you make any changes to the Revit model, you'll need to re-import it into Viz.
Frit/anarchitect-I believe it may be possible to export 3D modeling out of Revit, but not sure how.
AFter 2 months of working with 2d CAD, I don't think I could go back to that world at all. I dread the day when I need to move on to another firm and back to CAD, because Revit makes my job doing prototype stores semi-fun and interesting. Not to mention alot faster. The ability to pump out 3 options with plans, details, and full-color renderings in a half a day is invaluable, although it has raised expectations for our clients (we find ourselves waiting to send things out so it doesn't look too easy). My firm has recently secured new and potential jobs for TI, specifically, for several million square feet; mostly because we are able to quickly generate area takeoffs, scheduling, and also help with long-term facility management for these clients in ways that just aren't possible or economical with 2-d drawings.
(I don't care if I sound like a salesman. I do know that development for AutoCAD is being phased out completely over the next couple years)
I might believe what you say about ADT, but not Autocad itself. It's not going anywhere. And even ADT's future is questionable. More likely that Revit and ADT will continue to look more and more similar until the ADT user base can transition over easily. I agree that Autodesk probably sees Revit as their long term solution, but to abandon ADT after selling so many firms on it (even though most firms don't really use it) would be a bad PR move. But if you've seen the "new" features in ADT 2005, they look a lot like Revit.
Revit is not worth the money.
Autocad ADT 2005 is worthless.
you guys sound like you work for Autocad!
All Architects know there are better programs than these
Go spam some where else!
We have Revit 6.1 at my firm; things have been really slow recently so I've been tinkering with it.
Hearing about limitations on exporting 3d to VIZ is extremely discouraging.... I'm not sure if Revit can render up to our standards.
Also, I've been wondering about Revits drafting capabilities. FOr all the parametric families and objects in the world, I can think of a thousand instances where AutoCAD would still be necessary....
Also, I've so far found that the learning curve is very steep for things like creating new families. It just doesn't seem very intuitive.... but like I said, I've just started playing with it.
One of my favourite features is being able to walkthrough my buildings using the 'dynamic view' controls. It's ever better than using traditional web walkthroughs, because I can 'dolly' myself up or down to different floors, and not have to worry if I'll fit through all the doors! :)
However, having said all of that, I still think nothing will beat the simplicity and absolute flexibility that AutoCAD offers. Even though Revit will cut time with it's generated views and models, I can still burn rubber with the good ol' command prompt!
There was a time when people said the same thing about Autocad vs. manual drafting. The technology needs some time to grow before it will feel as comfortable as Autocad has become.
I actually found Revit much esier to get used to than I did Autocad.
Archicad and Allplan are very similar to Revit, at least in their general approach to architectural drawings. They all make use of the buidling model concept. What is it about these two that puts them ahead in your view?
EASE OF USE
I JUST GOT ALL PLAN FOR A JOB IN SCOTTLAND
THE FIRM THERE TOLD ME ABOUT IT IS THE BEST CAD PROGRAM I'VE HAVE EVER USED MOVE OVER AUTO CRAP
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE SLEEP KEEP USING AUTO CRAP
Autodesk Revit 6.0 users?
Olá.
I was recently invited for a presentation of Autodesk's Revit new release, version 6. I was quite impressed about the potential of this piece of software, how it [almost] covers the whole range of project developing: plans, sections, measurements, costs estimates, 3D... in only one drawing...
http://www.autodesk.com/revit
Do you think parametric designing is the way to go? Any experience with this software?
thx in advance,
T.
We recently finished a large (200,000 sf) renovation in Revit 5.1. Personally I find the structure and organization of the software to be very intuitive though there is definitely a learning curve when working on large projects with multiple users. With this particular project, we took it all the way through CDs though we did use 2D CAD for detailing. To maintain consistency, we imported the CAD drawings into the Revit file. It was a bit of a struggle at the end but we managed to get the drawings out the door. With projects of this size, the file can get very large which, as you can imagine, makes working with it very slow. One thing we realized is that when using this type of software, there is a definite compulsion to model everything as accurately as possible. Since this was a renovation, we spent a lot of time modeling the existing building, partially for the challenge and partially because we thought we’d eventually need that level of detail. While this helped us better understand the building, in the end we wasted a lot of time on areas that weren’t necessarily relevant to the final drawings and the file grew needlessly large. In a practical sense, the notion of a complete building information model is a bit inaccurate since, in a lot of cases, you're still producing 2D documents and as such, building the model to support these drawings. To build a fully representative building information model would require a great deal of time and resources, most likely beyond the scope of a typical architectural services contract. We are now starting some smaller projects in Revit 6.1, mostly interior renovations. There’s definitely a lot of potential in the software, particularly when you look at extracting more information out of the database. A number of people in the construction industry are using Revit to produce more accurate quantity takeoffs, which brings up some pretty interesting issues regarding collaboration and project delivery. We’re a couple of years from switching over completely to Revit (or some other BIM software) but so far the results have been promising.
We have used Revit for our primary production package since October of last year, and the experience has been good, but not without problems. The above entry touched on a big one, the tendancy to model more than you really need to. But there are times when the ability to model an element and pull 2d projections off it is invaluable. I am currently working on a theater that has a sloping and curving floor with seats following the curve in plan. In Autocad, or on paper, I'd never worry about what those seats looked like in elevation as they rotated, but with the model, you can read the curved seating in the elevations and sections.
There is still a lot of drafting type work involved, mostly layering detail on top of the plan or section view that get generated from the model, but it's easier than starting with a blank drawing.
You can download the full program, you just can't save anything. But you can look at the sample projects that come with it.
Overall, I wouldn't want to go back to 2d drafting.
I agree with Frit. Having used Revit, I'm reluctant to go back to 2D drafting. This sentiment was also echoed by the other members of the project team. While the software can be frustrating and it's not ideally suited for all projects, Revit is ultimately more rewarding than any 2D package I've worked with.
Very interesting information people...
One of the things I've notice is that I'll hve to buy a database with all the products/prices/materials relating to the Portuguese market....
Anyway,tThanks for sharing your experience. Valuable advices....
What does revit costs? Not that I would run out a buy it but I would consider getting some training so I could determine what it has to offer for my work. And what the difference from Architectural desktop?
It's around $5000 a seat, and since it's Autodesk, you gotta pay an annual subscription fee. But, in the 7 months we've been using it, we've had two major updates and about 6 smaller ones, so at least you get something for it.
As far as ADT goes, in concept they do similar things, but ADT can never be a true building modeller because it's built on Autocad and it's various limitations. Autodesk will tell you they are targeting different markets with the two products and they plan to keep developing both, but I don't buy it. I'd expect to see ADT gradually look more and more like Revit until they can transition the user base over.
The thing that gets glossed over a lot is that the 2d drafting functions in Revit are also parametric, which means that when your enlarged toilet plan switches from 1/8 to 1/4, dimensions and text adjust accordingly. Or if the wall in your head detail goes to a 6" stud, the frame adjusts to the new width. Little things, but they add up. And after about three days you can draft in it just as well as Autocad. So it's not like you have to abandon your whole way of working.
Damn, I just read this and I sound like a salesman, but I really do enjoy working with this way more than plain cad.
One more thing... The 3D models made in Revit can still be used with 3d Studio MAX, Architectural Desktop, etc...?
RE: Revit and Architectural training.
Something I wrote for the previous incarnation of Archnect but parts are still relavent.
Had a Revit seminar by our AutoDesk re-sellers (Bastards) the other week. Things have moved on a lot since I reviewed the program for our company a couple of years back. As far a parametric modelling goes it is the market leader and is getting better as an all-round design and construction tool (more intelligent / more flexible).
At my school of Architecture computer were frowned upon during the degree course as the user complexities of the computer language still tend to inhibit the simplicity of the creative process and generation of ideas. The design studios were focused upon the brain to hand to pencil as the simplest and most expressive design tool.
The diploma school was more of a free reign with all mediums available (Photoshop & AutoCAD R12-14 in those days). No formal teaching was given to computers and they were simply there if you wanted to use them.
Back to topic, Revit is good for Architecture however it is not an education tool in the expressive sense. The intelligent block system used can construct and detail a simple building and produce all the required drawings at the press of a button, and from which you would learn little as the process, exploration, the frustration, the pain, and the result as to some extent the parameters of the design are digitally predefined in advance. More complex structures require advanced detail design of block parameters and therefore are a hindrance to the innocent and free (Architecture Students not those at the practice coal face).
Computers aid the visualisation of the creative vision however the ability to visualise and explore the design in sketches and other simple media is vital to Architecture.
I’d rather sketch the new evolving ideals in front of the client on the back of a cigarette packet (envelope for the politically correct) than wheel in a computer in to do the dirty work.
Roll you sleeves up and sharpen those pencils for the moment!
Anarchitect - fully compatable accross Autodesk platforms including scripted converstion filters for non standard platforms (e.g. layer conversion as Revit has no layers)
Anarchitect,
While 2d drawings can flow back and forth between Revit and ADT or Autocad easily, the 3d models do not. The Revit model is not compatible with the ADT model. You can bring in basic 3d elements from Autocad, and 3d Studio files if you import to Autocad and save as dwg, but as far as I can tell it's a one way street. Revit does not export 3d information.
Shit. That's bad news.... I always like to use MAX to enhamce presentations [better rendering engine/animations, xtras, etc...]. It seems strange since they belong to the same software house....
thanks.
While it's never been officially announced, I think everyone expects Viz Render to eventually replace Accurender as Revit's rendering engine. I don't know much about Viz Render, but maybe that process will result in more compatability.
Is Viz Render (program packaged with ADT) a more basic version of VIZ 2005?
Yes, though Viz Render only works with ADT. You can't buy Viz Render separately and I believe it has a different file format from the full-scale version of Viz. They stripped out a lot of the modeling feature, since all of that is done in ADT. As for using Viz with Revit, AutoDesk put out a white paper some time ago about importing Revit files into Viz. I never tried it but from what I read, it was a reasonably easy process. Unfortunately it's not a live link so if you make any changes to the Revit model, you'll need to re-import it into Viz.
Frit/anarchitect-I believe it may be possible to export 3D modeling out of Revit, but not sure how.
AFter 2 months of working with 2d CAD, I don't think I could go back to that world at all. I dread the day when I need to move on to another firm and back to CAD, because Revit makes my job doing prototype stores semi-fun and interesting. Not to mention alot faster. The ability to pump out 3 options with plans, details, and full-color renderings in a half a day is invaluable, although it has raised expectations for our clients (we find ourselves waiting to send things out so it doesn't look too easy). My firm has recently secured new and potential jobs for TI, specifically, for several million square feet; mostly because we are able to quickly generate area takeoffs, scheduling, and also help with long-term facility management for these clients in ways that just aren't possible or economical with 2-d drawings.
(I don't care if I sound like a salesman. I do know that development for AutoCAD is being phased out completely over the next couple years)
Museschild,
I might believe what you say about ADT, but not Autocad itself. It's not going anywhere. And even ADT's future is questionable. More likely that Revit and ADT will continue to look more and more similar until the ADT user base can transition over easily. I agree that Autodesk probably sees Revit as their long term solution, but to abandon ADT after selling so many firms on it (even though most firms don't really use it) would be a bad PR move. But if you've seen the "new" features in ADT 2005, they look a lot like Revit.
Revit is not worth the money.
Autocad ADT 2005 is worthless.
you guys sound like you work for Autocad!
All Architects know there are better programs than these
Go spam some where else!
stark, i'm curious which 'better programs' you refer to...
He doesn't know, he's just being an ass.
Thats all he ever does.
We have Revit 6.1 at my firm; things have been really slow recently so I've been tinkering with it.
Hearing about limitations on exporting 3d to VIZ is extremely discouraging.... I'm not sure if Revit can render up to our standards.
Also, I've been wondering about Revits drafting capabilities. FOr all the parametric families and objects in the world, I can think of a thousand instances where AutoCAD would still be necessary....
Also, I've so far found that the learning curve is very steep for things like creating new families. It just doesn't seem very intuitive.... but like I said, I've just started playing with it.
One of my favourite features is being able to walkthrough my buildings using the 'dynamic view' controls. It's ever better than using traditional web walkthroughs, because I can 'dolly' myself up or down to different floors, and not have to worry if I'll fit through all the doors! :)
However, having said all of that, I still think nothing will beat the simplicity and absolute flexibility that AutoCAD offers. Even though Revit will cut time with it's generated views and models, I can still burn rubber with the good ol' command prompt!
There was a time when people said the same thing about Autocad vs. manual drafting. The technology needs some time to grow before it will feel as comfortable as Autocad has become.
I actually found Revit much esier to get used to than I did Autocad.
Archicad 8 Or Allplan from the UK
Archicad and Allplan are very similar to Revit, at least in their general approach to architectural drawings. They all make use of the buidling model concept. What is it about these two that puts them ahead in your view?
EASE OF USE
I JUST GOT ALL PLAN FOR A JOB IN SCOTTLAND
THE FIRM THERE TOLD ME ABOUT IT IS THE BEST CAD PROGRAM I'VE HAVE EVER USED MOVE OVER AUTO CRAP
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE SLEEP KEEP USING AUTO CRAP
TRY TO DO THIS IN AUTO CRAP
Wow.
That was informative.
Like I said, that is essentially what Revit does.
And the fact you are typing in all caps tells me you are probably still using Autocad despite your trash talking.
HEY, I CAN BE A DICK TOO AND TYPE IN ALL CAPS
gee, if I could read in German, I might be convinced.
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