In case anyone wants to hear another funny story about cheap clients.
When I was laid off, I attempted to start a rendering business and worked with a "developer" on his 3 story multi-family project. He taught himself CAD and decided he would do all the drawings. I made a few renderings for him as he battled the city planning department for 3 years! Eventually he got it approved and declared the design was finished and he only needed the CD's to be finished up using CAD drawings. At that time I had a job in a small architecture office and after declining his offer of doing the CD's for him he asked to speak with my boss. He wanted us to use his CAD drawings and for this 3 story multifamily unit only have (15) 24x36 sheets max (civil, architectural, structural ect.) He then told my boss our $10,000 dollar fee was too much and went with supposedly a cheaper firm. My boss laughed as I told him how the developer taught himself CAD and spent probably 300 hrs of his own time to draft the project. My boss then went on to tell me all the things that weren't up to code when he looked at the plans. One thing that I remember was that the developer had insisted that a double loading elevator was the only option to meet a certain code requirement "without massive redesign and another zoning approval" and my boss quickly pointed out an alternative. So basically our $10,000 fee was too high and architects aren't worth it, even though within a 20 minute conversation we just saved him $70,000 on an elevator. Who knows how we could have helped if he actually let us do our thing. Anyway, it's been another year and that site is still vacant.
Great story, StarchitectAlpha. So many people think if they learn CAD (or better yet, SketchUp! It's free!) they can do all the things we learn in 5-7 years of school training plus career experience. LOL
Kind of, although Starch's developer doesn't sound like much of a developer. The timeline alone is telling. Developers may suck in so many ways, but there are many who are self taught in all aspects, highly competent, and really just do not need architects but for the stamp.
Point is, many developers know the process of what they specialize in better than most architects -- they are not unsophisticated "clients". We're a legal PITA, nothing more.
Haven't been on here for a while, wow, thanks for the support to all of you.
I ended up filing a restraining order towards the drafter, and filed another to the a-hole clients.
Got a nice letter from a attorney demanding I pay 10,000 dollars, that's including my retainer fee and for what reads, "applicable time of pusuit for damages", and that I drop the restraining order and also provide the electronic file(s) of the sketches that I had made for them.
All of it is a bunch of baloney. I decided to let my attorney handle all of this and wipe my hands clean. My attorney is counter suing for 80,000 dollars in damages for defamation of character, libel, slander, death threats, and all that sort. My attorney says I have plenty of evidence and recorded phone calls of harassment, etc and this should be a easy suit.
I always write down minutes, as a way to legally defend myself in case of anything and file them away, it's a good thing as my attorney will also use that for the suit, as well as the recorded calls, messages, texts, office camera, and so on.
While I love what I do, I can't begin to understand the mentality of people. Seriously, I really cannot understand why people are so psycho.
People just need to chill out, kick back, relax and move on.
And now, it's almost 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon, getting ready to pour myself a little bit of scotch on the rocks. While that may seem a little early, I feel I damn well deserve it after spending a few hours with my attorney early today.
On a good note, I have no meetings until Thursday. Now i just have to get to work and design, then tonight, kick up the grill and stay up until about 3 in the morning designing some more.
Thanks for the update, Greatescape! What an amazing and horrible story. Glad you're coming out on top, even though the time and attorney's fees are never a fun thing to have to spend.
FYI, everyone, Archinect wants your client horror stories! We want to do a podcast about them:
And a reminder: send us your client horror stories! Also welcome are your architectural legal issues, comments or questions about the podcast, via twitter #archinectsessions, email, or call us at (213) 784-7421.
Also, to anyone else reading: electronic files are a VERY touchy subject, and most often you absolutely do not owe them to anyone, unless your contract specifically says so. Clients asking for electronic files is like asking for you to hand over the pencil you used to draw their plans in the old days. Nope.
by no means do I have a story that can measure up to this one.
But recently I had a client that pulled a bad girlfriend stunt on me. Called me up crying on the phone. Wouldn't tell me what was wrong, but told me that I didn't care about them. Lots of crying without any explanation. Then hung up. Took me a couple of days, but I figured out that the client was having issues with the contractor and thought that I somehow would know about it - even though I didn't even know they'd selected a contractor yet. Client still owes me money and expects that I'll do free CA and hand holding. I'll get paid, but hey, what's a little free work between friends?
I tend to do everything I can to make a project come out well regardless of money. Which makes me extra careful about the commitments I make.
In the end a bit more or less dough is nothing compared to a good project. Which is not to say I hang around when a client starts taking dumps on people.
Miles, I wholeheartedly agree. I never hide from a client - and often go the extra mile to finish it up, even when there's no money in it. I'm still learning the lesson about picking clients, but hey...
@miles jaffe, eh, my attorney is adding his cost of services to the suit and if i'm not mistaken, already started billing them directly through his attorney. Had a meeting with my attorney and the judge in his quarters and he told me there is no way he'll toss out the suit. No slap on the wrists either.
Apparently when there's a stake on a life, it is considered a felony. Since i've never had to call the police on someone threatening to kill me I had no clue. They may also be going to jail for some of the things they are guilty of (yes i know innocent until proven guilty but I don't care). Preliminary discovery reveals they own a nice ranch a few vehicles, and a double wide trailer home in that ranch.
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on that ranch and escalade though...
In this week's podcast episode we talk to our legal correspondent about copyright retention for architects, which is directly applicable to this situation. Unless you and your client agreed to a transfer of copyright, you have no obligation to provide him with your work.
I'm thinking that after this, I may have to start recording conversations to defend myself. Though i'm not sure, as a professional, if that's such a smart idea. I am not "scared" or "afraid" of people out to get me, though, I do always want to have my ass covered in case something like this should happen again (Heaven forbid it ever happens again) and i've considered and am considering.
What do you guys think?
- To record, or not to record. That is the question.
^ Varies by state. I think in Texas it's OK, but only if you have a loaded handgun and bottle of hootch in your possession at the same time.
GE: Sounds like you've already covered yourself with note taking, etc. Don't drift into paranoia.
More than anything else, it sucks that this is our business environment. We're supposed to be designers, but the tank we swim in - especially residential - is full of sharks. The trick is learning to spot them before they take a bite out of you.
Thus Jaffe's Second Rule: If you need a lawyer it's already too late.
Greatescape, Conaider that everything you post here may be read by their lawyer and read back to a judge in the most unflattering way. May be time to cool it and let us know after the judge hangs em high.
We had a preliminary hearing in February and everything was OK'd to proceed.
We had court last monday, and a few things. The restraining order held against all parties involved. The lawsuit held up and ended up settling for 80,000 dollars plus attorney fees which totalled out to $104,000 including court costs and filing fees. Since all this they have a sentencing hearing in May for the death threats, they posted bond and got out and waiting for their time in court.
When they posted bond they gave me a call and ended up visiting me to one of my job sites. I immediately called the police and they were literally crying for me to stop and and drop the suit and that they would settle and do whatever they needed to do to make it right with me. Police came over and they had taken off before the police got there.
Long story short, we are seizing their property, and everything on their land including their home, bank accounts, etc and will be sold at an auction if they can't come up with the money. Apparently they are going to go through bankruptcy.
Since then i've contemplated in dropping the charged against them so they won't spend time in jail. Attorney says don't drop, that even if i do drop, the DA will most likely pursue charges against them on my behalf.
I don't like the feeling of ruining peoples lives over someone being hot headed.
That's about it for now.
Oh and about el drafter, he's still in prison. Apparently he also got into a fight with a officer while eating his breakfast. I don't think he'll be coming out anytime soon...
GE, I think you have to do what you feel is right in this situation... don't let the ex-client now defendant guilt trip you into dropping the charges. The criminal justice system uses inordinately harsh penalties on many of those who come through it, but if they are formerly upstanding citizens and somewhat wealthy, they will end up with probation and an expensive lesson, which is what they deserve.
I wouldn't worry about posting anonymously, unless someone can convince a judge to serve a warrant for your IP address and computer history.... not likely.
I generally don't wish ill on anyone, but I do feel some small degree of comfort on the rare occasion when people get what they deserve. They started the legal action, fuck 'em. As to the death threats, same thing. You can and should feel compassion for them. That doesn't mean you have to act on your feelings.
On a different note, you have stumbled onto what many consider a profitable business model.
Mar 15, 15 5:20 pm ·
·
This needs to be nicely compiled. I'm wondering how the heck the drafter went to jail. Did he do something seriously stupid.
Mar 15, 15 5:32 pm ·
·
"Went ahead and filed a police report after getting harassing calls all day, officers went to speak to the el drafter and apparently got into a scuffle with them. Long story short, officers told me he assaulted a female officer, and resisted arrest. I stopped getting calls from the a-hole clients after officers paid a visit and informed them that i was planning to file a restraining order. I got one last call and a voicemail with a apology."
If I knew who this drafter was, I would be sure to make clear that he would not be good for AIBD membership or NCBDC certification because the drafter's conduct would have been grounds for revoking certification and membership because for gawd sake, you don't assault a police officer let alone harass your competitors like that. You don't need a license to be a professional. You need to just conduct oneself in a professional manner and that includes following the law.
i like the part where they "settled" for exactly what you were asking for plus fees!
What a bunch of morons
Don't know how texas is, but lots of states will let you out of a contract (buyer's remorse) within a specific time period. I think it most commonly is used for cell phone contracts. perhaps they were applying the same logic?
Sorry for the experience. It's hard as we tend to take it as a personal affront to our abilities. Which you have to remember it is not. They are just difficult.
Had a couple that wanted a house done. We got the paperwork sorted and started on a diagramming exercise. Did site analysis and programming diagrams.
We had to do the first meeting remotely as they travel internationally a lot and they freaked out for some reason. We had sent them a presentation PDF so we could narrate on the phone and walk them through. They refused to even get on the phone with us saying this was just "cartoons". We tried to explain this was a diagramming exercise to organize the thoughts and program to make sure we were proceeding in the right direction.
They made claims like we had stacked certain rooms when they clearly asked for not doing this (they had never made any such requests). Etc. etc.
My partner and I were left scratching our heads after hanging up the phone just trying to make sense of what happened. After talking for a few days we've come to conclude we are better off. If this kind of drama occurred at the beginning stages, it only would've gotten worse had we stayed on. We decided to completely wash ourselves of the whole ordeal and cut a refund check even for the retainer and sent it back with a letter to the effect of "Sorry this didn't work out".
I'm trying to have a thicker skin about these things. I acted professionally and communicated with them as best as I could from beginning to end. There was no professional deficiency on my part. It's just hard to rationalize the crazy.
^Center - Caught this on another thread – the word “No”. Never learned this word and I regret it deeply. I only used that word once late in my career and it was like an Epiphany.
Just lost a-hole clients.
Miles is right. This is one of the best war stories I've ever heard. You will love telling this one years from now!
In case anyone wants to hear another funny story about cheap clients.
When I was laid off, I attempted to start a rendering business and worked with a "developer" on his 3 story multi-family project. He taught himself CAD and decided he would do all the drawings. I made a few renderings for him as he battled the city planning department for 3 years! Eventually he got it approved and declared the design was finished and he only needed the CD's to be finished up using CAD drawings. At that time I had a job in a small architecture office and after declining his offer of doing the CD's for him he asked to speak with my boss. He wanted us to use his CAD drawings and for this 3 story multifamily unit only have (15) 24x36 sheets max (civil, architectural, structural ect.) He then told my boss our $10,000 dollar fee was too much and went with supposedly a cheaper firm. My boss laughed as I told him how the developer taught himself CAD and spent probably 300 hrs of his own time to draft the project. My boss then went on to tell me all the things that weren't up to code when he looked at the plans. One thing that I remember was that the developer had insisted that a double loading elevator was the only option to meet a certain code requirement "without massive redesign and another zoning approval" and my boss quickly pointed out an alternative. So basically our $10,000 fee was too high and architects aren't worth it, even though within a 20 minute conversation we just saved him $70,000 on an elevator. Who knows how we could have helped if he actually let us do our thing. Anyway, it's been another year and that site is still vacant.
Great story, StarchitectAlpha. So many people think if they learn CAD (or better yet, SketchUp! It's free!) they can do all the things we learn in 5-7 years of school training plus career experience. LOL
Kind of, although Starch's developer doesn't sound like much of a developer. The timeline alone is telling. Developers may suck in so many ways, but there are many who are self taught in all aspects, highly competent, and really just do not need architects but for the stamp.
Point is, many developers know the process of what they specialize in better than most architects -- they are not unsophisticated "clients". We're a legal PITA, nothing more.
Haven't been on here for a while, wow, thanks for the support to all of you.
I ended up filing a restraining order towards the drafter, and filed another to the a-hole clients.
Got a nice letter from a attorney demanding I pay 10,000 dollars, that's including my retainer fee and for what reads, "applicable time of pusuit for damages", and that I drop the restraining order and also provide the electronic file(s) of the sketches that I had made for them.
All of it is a bunch of baloney. I decided to let my attorney handle all of this and wipe my hands clean. My attorney is counter suing for 80,000 dollars in damages for defamation of character, libel, slander, death threats, and all that sort. My attorney says I have plenty of evidence and recorded phone calls of harassment, etc and this should be a easy suit.
I always write down minutes, as a way to legally defend myself in case of anything and file them away, it's a good thing as my attorney will also use that for the suit, as well as the recorded calls, messages, texts, office camera, and so on.
While I love what I do, I can't begin to understand the mentality of people. Seriously, I really cannot understand why people are so psycho.
People just need to chill out, kick back, relax and move on.
And now, it's almost 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon, getting ready to pour myself a little bit of scotch on the rocks. While that may seem a little early, I feel I damn well deserve it after spending a few hours with my attorney early today.
On a good note, I have no meetings until Thursday. Now i just have to get to work and design, then tonight, kick up the grill and stay up until about 3 in the morning designing some more.
- I love my life.
Greatescape, this is quite literally the best thing I've read in a very long time. Make that drink a double.
Thanks for the update, Greatescape! What an amazing and horrible story. Glad you're coming out on top, even though the time and attorney's fees are never a fun thing to have to spend.
FYI, everyone, Archinect wants your client horror stories! We want to do a podcast about them:
And a reminder: send us your client horror stories! Also welcome are your architectural legal issues, comments or questions about the podcast, via twitter #archinectsessions, email, or call us at (213) 784-7421.
Also, to anyone else reading: electronic files are a VERY touchy subject, and most often you absolutely do not owe them to anyone, unless your contract specifically says so. Clients asking for electronic files is like asking for you to hand over the pencil you used to draw their plans in the old days. Nope.
I just noticed the Archinect double middle finger fist on the start page, freaking awesome.
Made my day.
Good luck - people with deep pockets can do lots of damage. May Hammurabi walk in your footsteps.
geez what a crazy story. This should be mandatory reading for every design student.
by no means do I have a story that can measure up to this one.
But recently I had a client that pulled a bad girlfriend stunt on me. Called me up crying on the phone. Wouldn't tell me what was wrong, but told me that I didn't care about them. Lots of crying without any explanation. Then hung up. Took me a couple of days, but I figured out that the client was having issues with the contractor and thought that I somehow would know about it - even though I didn't even know they'd selected a contractor yet. Client still owes me money and expects that I'll do free CA and hand holding. I'll get paid, but hey, what's a little free work between friends?
I tend to do everything I can to make a project come out well regardless of money. Which makes me extra careful about the commitments I make.
In the end a bit more or less dough is nothing compared to a good project. Which is not to say I hang around when a client starts taking dumps on people.
Miles, I wholeheartedly agree. I never hide from a client - and often go the extra mile to finish it up, even when there's no money in it. I'm still learning the lesson about picking clients, but hey...
@ken koense, I'm not really a interview kind of guy. sorry. But thank you!!!
@gruen, that's so weird. Never work for free!
@miles jaffe, eh, my attorney is adding his cost of services to the suit and if i'm not mistaken, already started billing them directly through his attorney. Had a meeting with my attorney and the judge in his quarters and he told me there is no way he'll toss out the suit. No slap on the wrists either.
Apparently when there's a stake on a life, it is considered a felony. Since i've never had to call the police on someone threatening to kill me I had no clue. They may also be going to jail for some of the things they are guilty of (yes i know innocent until proven guilty but I don't care). Preliminary discovery reveals they own a nice ranch a few vehicles, and a double wide trailer home in that ranch.
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on that ranch and escalade though...
- We'll see how it all pans out.
In this week's podcast episode we talk to our legal correspondent about copyright retention for architects, which is directly applicable to this situation. Unless you and your client agreed to a transfer of copyright, you have no obligation to provide him with your work.
greatscape, this could turn out to be the most profitable job of your career. Alas.
A good lawyer is like a good architect, they put your interests first. And they're even more difficult to find.
Good luck, and please keep us informed.
@paul petrunia, very nice podcast, thank you for the heads up on the copyright retention issue!
@miles jaffe, Yes, I sure hope so! lol.
I'm thinking that after this, I may have to start recording conversations to defend myself. Though i'm not sure, as a professional, if that's such a smart idea. I am not "scared" or "afraid" of people out to get me, though, I do always want to have my ass covered in case something like this should happen again (Heaven forbid it ever happens again) and i've considered and am considering.
What do you guys think?
- To record, or not to record. That is the question.
I believe you will have to inform them before hand.
^ Varies by state. I think in Texas it's OK, but only if you have a loaded handgun and bottle of hootch in your possession at the same time.
GE: Sounds like you've already covered yourself with note taking, etc. Don't drift into paranoia.
More than anything else, it sucks that this is our business environment. We're supposed to be designers, but the tank we swim in - especially residential - is full of sharks. The trick is learning to spot them before they take a bite out of you.
Thus Jaffe's Second Rule: If you need a lawyer it's already too late.
True, I'll stick to the norm.
This has to be a once in a lifetime gut punch.
Greatescape, Conaider that everything you post here may be read by their lawyer and read back to a judge in the most unflattering way. May be time to cool it and let us know after the judge hangs em high.
@volunteer, makes sense.
Appreciate it!
Not sure if posting anonymously presents a problem in regard to this.
Also disappointed not to get another episode in the saga.
Thanks for all the support. Here's a update:
We had a preliminary hearing in February and everything was OK'd to proceed.
We had court last monday, and a few things. The restraining order held against all parties involved. The lawsuit held up and ended up settling for 80,000 dollars plus attorney fees which totalled out to $104,000 including court costs and filing fees. Since all this they have a sentencing hearing in May for the death threats, they posted bond and got out and waiting for their time in court.
When they posted bond they gave me a call and ended up visiting me to one of my job sites. I immediately called the police and they were literally crying for me to stop and and drop the suit and that they would settle and do whatever they needed to do to make it right with me. Police came over and they had taken off before the police got there.
Long story short, we are seizing their property, and everything on their land including their home, bank accounts, etc and will be sold at an auction if they can't come up with the money. Apparently they are going to go through bankruptcy.
Since then i've contemplated in dropping the charged against them so they won't spend time in jail. Attorney says don't drop, that even if i do drop, the DA will most likely pursue charges against them on my behalf.
I don't like the feeling of ruining peoples lives over someone being hot headed.
That's about it for now.
Oh and about el drafter, he's still in prison. Apparently he also got into a fight with a officer while eating his breakfast. I don't think he'll be coming out anytime soon...
... yet another splendid example of how Architecture can be a truly exciting profession.
Wow, what a saga.
GE, I think you have to do what you feel is right in this situation... don't let the ex-client now defendant guilt trip you into dropping the charges. The criminal justice system uses inordinately harsh penalties on many of those who come through it, but if they are formerly upstanding citizens and somewhat wealthy, they will end up with probation and an expensive lesson, which is what they deserve.
I wouldn't worry about posting anonymously, unless someone can convince a judge to serve a warrant for your IP address and computer history.... not likely.
I generally don't wish ill on anyone, but I do feel some small degree of comfort on the rare occasion when people get what they deserve. They started the legal action, fuck 'em. As to the death threats, same thing. You can and should feel compassion for them. That doesn't mean you have to act on your feelings.
On a different note, you have stumbled onto what many consider a profitable business model.
This needs to be nicely compiled. I'm wondering how the heck the drafter went to jail. Did he do something seriously stupid.
"Went ahead and filed a police report after getting harassing calls all day, officers went to speak to the el drafter and apparently got into a scuffle with them. Long story short, officers told me he assaulted a female officer, and resisted arrest. I stopped getting calls from the a-hole clients after officers paid a visit and informed them that i was planning to file a restraining order. I got one last call and a voicemail with a apology."
If I knew who this drafter was, I would be sure to make clear that he would not be good for AIBD membership or NCBDC certification because the drafter's conduct would have been grounds for revoking certification and membership because for gawd sake, you don't assault a police officer let alone harass your competitors like that. You don't need a license to be a professional. You need to just conduct oneself in a professional manner and that includes following the law.
i like the part where they "settled" for exactly what you were asking for plus fees!
What a bunch of morons
Don't know how texas is, but lots of states will let you out of a contract (buyer's remorse) within a specific time period. I think it most commonly is used for cell phone contracts. perhaps they were applying the same logic?
Sorry for the experience. It's hard as we tend to take it as a personal affront to our abilities. Which you have to remember it is not. They are just difficult.
Had a couple that wanted a house done. We got the paperwork sorted and started on a diagramming exercise. Did site analysis and programming diagrams.
We had to do the first meeting remotely as they travel internationally a lot and they freaked out for some reason. We had sent them a presentation PDF so we could narrate on the phone and walk them through. They refused to even get on the phone with us saying this was just "cartoons". We tried to explain this was a diagramming exercise to organize the thoughts and program to make sure we were proceeding in the right direction.
They made claims like we had stacked certain rooms when they clearly asked for not doing this (they had never made any such requests). Etc. etc.
My partner and I were left scratching our heads after hanging up the phone just trying to make sense of what happened. After talking for a few days we've come to conclude we are better off. If this kind of drama occurred at the beginning stages, it only would've gotten worse had we stayed on. We decided to completely wash ourselves of the whole ordeal and cut a refund check even for the retainer and sent it back with a letter to the effect of "Sorry this didn't work out".
I'm trying to have a thicker skin about these things. I acted professionally and communicated with them as best as I could from beginning to end. There was no professional deficiency on my part. It's just hard to rationalize the crazy.
^Center - Caught this on another thread – the word “No”. Never learned this word and I regret it deeply. I only used that word once late in my career and it was like an Epiphany.
Richard, I'd put assaulting a police officer (apparently the count is at two now?) in the "seriously stupid" pile.
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