Need Advice on material research. i am building a retail center , and would like to cut costs by using tilt up concrete with inlays. ( brick, stone, ect)
has anyone used these?
does anyone know of any beautiful examples to look at as precendent?
form a depression/opening in the concrete and add your brick, stone, tile...
Check with your engineer for height/weight/leg width requirements.
This kind of construction really has not been pushed to it's limits, good luck.
I'm doing a tilt-up right now - first time for me. Took me a while to really understand the structure of those panels. We're using TU because it's a design-build project and the contractor likes TU. However, you'll probably find that precast will allow more flexibility and MUCH MUCH better finishing than tilt-up for equivalent price.
el jeffe is correct.
the quality of tilt up is less than a pre-cast product like fabcon for instance.
a precast panel will run about $13 - 14sf installed.
not sure of tilt-up prices.
el jeffe- what do you mean by more flexibility. It seems like almost anything is possible with tiltup (drawback being it has a face and a back). The problem I see with tiltup is it's possibilities are always severley reduced because it is primarily used when someone has value engineered the snot out of the building.
any other more recent experiences with tilt-up on the boards?
I have begun a project which will use tilt-up. the tilt-up.org site has been helpful. I purchased a manual from them and it contains some good examples and section drawings.
I dunno if you'd want to use 'em for a retail center, but 'Superior Walls' does a pretty nice system - mostly used in residential, they can get a wall system set up in less than a day depending on the site. They're pretty
versatile in terms of openings, beam pockets, etc. Also, you don't use concrete footings - strange, but true, they seem to work well.
From my experience site cast TU is typically +/- 10% less than pre-cast or masonry. But obviously cost varies depending location, building area, height, amount of reveals/ openings/ formwork, etc. TU also requires a building slab large enough to accommodate all of the panels or you will need to provide an additional waste slab, thus it may not even be an option for many confined sites. And don’t forget that even though labor cost is typically less for TU due to the speed of construction, crane operators demand an extremely large fee, so design you panels accordingly to allow for a speedy TU process.
TU walls are usually 5-1/2â€-12" thick and are typically 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet wide. Panel heights frequently range up to 40 feet (but I have gone as high as 59’).
As for the original question by REDFemme, I agree with gustav, if you require that the finish brick/stone be flush with the conc. face, provide a recess in the conc. panel. Most engineers will want the panel behind the recess to be at least 5-1/2†(depending on how high and wide you recess). A better option may be to simply surface apply the veneer, which will give you some relief from that all so boring TU flat face.
I don't know if this is tilt-up or just plain precast, but the Phoenix Central Library by Bruder has concrete panels which were "custom-textured" - a fancy way of saying that Bruder went to the concrete facility and experimented with two guys wielding a 2x4 to texture them. They ended up pouring the concrete and texturizing it by standing a guy on either side of the flat panel slamming the 2x4 repeatedly and randomly to make a squarish-grooved texture, in which no two panels are alike. Really cool and really questioning the handmade/manufactured division, I think.
The 59' entry panels were around 30' wide, although they incorporated very large opening that reduced the overall weight...it was pushing the limit. I think the remaining panels for that project were roughly 50'-56' and were typically no wider than 25'. The panels were 10" thick I believe (the depth of your recess/ reveals will be a determining factor).
Bula - I currently have a prj. I am working on independently which has a 350' length facade, 55' building height, and the front facade has 24 tall window openings which will begin at the second flr and go to the fourth floor. Basically I am thinking of having the tilt up panels go the entire 55' and have the window openings recessed in but am unsure if it would be beneficial to have the tilt up pour cross bridge where the third and fourth floors will block out the windows. does this make sense and do you have the time to answer. appreciate your input tremendously. Im lending towards 55' by 28' panels which would contain two window openings in each panel. I could show you a rendering if that would help of the proposed facade.
A continuous 55' X 28' panels should be fine. The window between the second and third floor could be either recessed panel at the third floor line or spanning C channel to provide floor support (if using steel floor framing).
By the way, what is your floor to floor height? 55' seems really tight for a four story.
the 55' height limit is something we are working with the city on, it needs to change. What type of prj. did you use the 59' height panels on, in CA? Do you typically use steel floor supports when doing a tilt up prj?
The 50'-59' building was a three story in Las Vegas.
Floor and roof were conc. metal deck with steel framing. Usually anything I do over 2 stories is steel framed. Cheaper than conc. and has the option to be easily fire proofed (versus truss framing). But it also depends on the availability of materials in your area.
This question may seem silly, but once you had tilted the 59' panel, how much of the metal deck and steel framing was in place prior to the tilt-up(Square feet of the structure). If you were to do a 5-story structure using tilt-up, how would you go about doing the infrastructure of the floors. Were the tilt-up panels on your prj. non-load bearing? In a 5-story wouldn't be wise to have the tilt-up panels acting as load bearing?
Again, I am a rookie to this but have been reading as much material I can get a hold of. thanks again Bula...
in my tilt-up experience they aren't used for gravity loads but they are the lateral-resisting system.
c'mon Bula, grab that cup of coffee and get going....
what was your latest tilt-up prj. el jeffe? height of panels, etc.? Im just having a hard time imagining a 55'+ panel temporarily braced, im not standing anywhere near it.
okay, so 4 or less lvls is suitable for tilt construction. one morequestion, I have not seen an example of a construction photo where 2 vertical casted tilt elements are positioned and weldedfixed atop one another. thus, giving you the opp. to go higher than said 50'. im supposing this would be a construction crane issue in all regards. but, thanks for the insight bula... i'll figure this thing out sooner than later.....i am convinced to do tilt construction on this proj......too much thought has already went into it.....thnx
...this is starting to sound like a job for precast or steel framing system with a non-bearing stucco/EIFS over a steel framed skin. I do not think stacking panels is a good idea (or even possible). I also would not recomend a 4 story tilt, since you will probably not get the floor to floor height you will need (i.e. 15' floor to floor height @ 4 floors = +/-60' req'd w/ a 10' clear fourth floor). Also don't forget about your equip. screen (if req'd) and at least a 12" parapet.
I think you are right Bula, the owners original intent was to do tilt-up so I gave it my all to remedy it but do not think it is feasable as you have stated.
Sweet as. I am in a similar position and we found that precast panels were not as economical once we factored in cranage, transport etc. We went for concrete block instead. Still use lots of columns and rib and infill concrete flooring system. However, I am on the opposite side of the world...
what were the details behind the medical, primary use? the one Im working on entails alternative medicine as lead role. it will serve as a retreat with an accompanying hotel/resort bridged to it(completed).
1st lvl - Diagnostic Medical
2nd lvl - Alternative Medical
3rd lvl - Research & Conference
4th lvl - dental/plastic/eye laser surgical
5th lvl - spa, gym, sauna, etc.
This was a private diagnostic lab primarily. My former employee lost the job after I left so it didnt progress to far and I dont have any other info - certainly not as large as what your talking about - Sounds like an interesting project, good luck and keep us posted.
Sep 22, 05 12:51 am ·
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Tilt up Concrete advice
Need Advice on material research. i am building a retail center , and would like to cut costs by using tilt up concrete with inlays. ( brick, stone, ect)
has anyone used these?
does anyone know of any beautiful examples to look at as precendent?
* i am curious how far i can push the material.
no inlays but holl used tilt ups on the chapel of st. ignatius in seattle
form a depression/opening in the concrete and add your brick, stone, tile...
Check with your engineer for height/weight/leg width requirements.
This kind of construction really has not been pushed to it's limits, good luck.
Tilt-up retail firm here
Follows a tried and true pattern but this sort of work is good for that.
Or use thin brick that is layed face down in the forms and cast directly into the panel.
I'm doing a tilt-up right now - first time for me. Took me a while to really understand the structure of those panels. We're using TU because it's a design-build project and the contractor likes TU. However, you'll probably find that precast will allow more flexibility and MUCH MUCH better finishing than tilt-up for equivalent price.
el jeffe is correct.
the quality of tilt up is less than a pre-cast product like fabcon for instance.
a precast panel will run about $13 - 14sf installed.
not sure of tilt-up prices.
Precast shipping vs. concrete truck transport
el jeffe- what do you mean by more flexibility. It seems like almost anything is possible with tiltup (drawback being it has a face and a back). The problem I see with tiltup is it's possibilities are always severley reduced because it is primarily used when someone has value engineered the snot out of the building.
I am unfamiliar with this TU stuff, so I did a quick search....
as with anything, there is an organization....
http://www.tilt-up.org/
'beautiful examples to look at as precendent': schindler's house on kings ave
any other more recent experiences with tilt-up on the boards?
I have begun a project which will use tilt-up. the tilt-up.org site has been helpful. I purchased a manual from them and it contains some good examples and section drawings.
I dunno if you'd want to use 'em for a retail center, but 'Superior Walls' does a pretty nice system - mostly used in residential, they can get a wall system set up in less than a day depending on the site. They're pretty
versatile in terms of openings, beam pockets, etc. Also, you don't use concrete footings - strange, but true, they seem to work well.
We have used these guys [url=http://www.advanceprecast.com] and check out the Mission Hill Winery, amongst other project types.
Look at Shindler...He did it well...don't do something crappy please.
“not sure of tilt-up prices…â€
From my experience site cast TU is typically +/- 10% less than pre-cast or masonry. But obviously cost varies depending location, building area, height, amount of reveals/ openings/ formwork, etc. TU also requires a building slab large enough to accommodate all of the panels or you will need to provide an additional waste slab, thus it may not even be an option for many confined sites. And don’t forget that even though labor cost is typically less for TU due to the speed of construction, crane operators demand an extremely large fee, so design you panels accordingly to allow for a speedy TU process.
TU walls are usually 5-1/2â€-12" thick and are typically 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet wide. Panel heights frequently range up to 40 feet (but I have gone as high as 59’).
As for the original question by REDFemme, I agree with gustav, if you require that the finish brick/stone be flush with the conc. face, provide a recess in the conc. panel. Most engineers will want the panel behind the recess to be at least 5-1/2†(depending on how high and wide you recess). A better option may be to simply surface apply the veneer, which will give you some relief from that all so boring TU flat face.
I second the "don't do something crappy please".
I don't know if this is tilt-up or just plain precast, but the Phoenix Central Library by Bruder has concrete panels which were "custom-textured" - a fancy way of saying that Bruder went to the concrete facility and experimented with two guys wielding a 2x4 to texture them. They ended up pouring the concrete and texturizing it by standing a guy on either side of the flat panel slamming the 2x4 repeatedly and randomly to make a squarish-grooved texture, in which no two panels are alike. Really cool and really questioning the handmade/manufactured division, I think.
A lousy pic, but maybe you can find more online
Ignore the bridge in the picture - the concrete panels I'm talking about are the L-shaped grey portion of the building beyond.
Bula - How wide were the 59' tall panels you mentioned and what were there thickness?
The 59' entry panels were around 30' wide, although they incorporated very large opening that reduced the overall weight...it was pushing the limit. I think the remaining panels for that project were roughly 50'-56' and were typically no wider than 25'. The panels were 10" thick I believe (the depth of your recess/ reveals will be a determining factor).
Bula - I currently have a prj. I am working on independently which has a 350' length facade, 55' building height, and the front facade has 24 tall window openings which will begin at the second flr and go to the fourth floor. Basically I am thinking of having the tilt up panels go the entire 55' and have the window openings recessed in but am unsure if it would be beneficial to have the tilt up pour cross bridge where the third and fourth floors will block out the windows. does this make sense and do you have the time to answer. appreciate your input tremendously. Im lending towards 55' by 28' panels which would contain two window openings in each panel. I could show you a rendering if that would help of the proposed facade.
Bula -
http://plaza.ufl.edu/ktw/
if you go to the above link and scroll all the way to the bottom you will see the faceade I am referencing.
todd
A continuous 55' X 28' panels should be fine. The window between the second and third floor could be either recessed panel at the third floor line or spanning C channel to provide floor support (if using steel floor framing).
By the way, what is your floor to floor height? 55' seems really tight for a four story.
the 55' height limit is something we are working with the city on, it needs to change. What type of prj. did you use the 59' height panels on, in CA? Do you typically use steel floor supports when doing a tilt up prj?
The 50'-59' building was a three story in Las Vegas.
Floor and roof were conc. metal deck with steel framing. Usually anything I do over 2 stories is steel framed. Cheaper than conc. and has the option to be easily fire proofed (versus truss framing). But it also depends on the availability of materials in your area.
This question may seem silly, but once you had tilted the 59' panel, how much of the metal deck and steel framing was in place prior to the tilt-up(Square feet of the structure). If you were to do a 5-story structure using tilt-up, how would you go about doing the infrastructure of the floors. Were the tilt-up panels on your prj. non-load bearing? In a 5-story wouldn't be wise to have the tilt-up panels acting as load bearing?
Again, I am a rookie to this but have been reading as much material I can get a hold of. thanks again Bula...
in my tilt-up experience they aren't used for gravity loads but they are the lateral-resisting system.
c'mon Bula, grab that cup of coffee and get going....
what was your latest tilt-up prj. el jeffe? height of panels, etc.? Im just having a hard time imagining a 55'+ panel temporarily braced, im not standing anywhere near it.
Yes, it would be rather inefficient if not.
“Im just having a hard time imagining a 55'+ panel temporarily braced (similar to this), im not standing anywhere near it.†Me neither!
“If you were to do a 5-story structure using tilt-up…†are you INSANE?!? I would not use tilt for anything over three (or maybe a four). ;)
okay, so 4 or less lvls is suitable for tilt construction. one morequestion, I have not seen an example of a construction photo where 2 vertical casted tilt elements are positioned and weldedfixed atop one another. thus, giving you the opp. to go higher than said 50'. im supposing this would be a construction crane issue in all regards. but, thanks for the insight bula... i'll figure this thing out sooner than later.....i am convinced to do tilt construction on this proj......too much thought has already went into it.....thnx
...this is starting to sound like a job for precast or steel framing system with a non-bearing stucco/EIFS over a steel framed skin. I do not think stacking panels is a good idea (or even possible). I also would not recomend a 4 story tilt, since you will probably not get the floor to floor height you will need (i.e. 15' floor to floor height @ 4 floors = +/-60' req'd w/ a 10' clear fourth floor). Also don't forget about your equip. screen (if req'd) and at least a 12" parapet.
I think you are right Bula, the owners original intent was to do tilt-up so I gave it my all to remedy it but do not think it is feasable as you have stated.
I have a meeting with the owner tommorow to discuss. I think precast construction will be more suitable for the project.
You need an engineer on this.
we got one of those too... just trying to exercise my resources before we get his figure.
Sweet as. I am in a similar position and we found that precast panels were not as economical once we factored in cranage, transport etc. We went for concrete block instead. Still use lots of columns and rib and infill concrete flooring system. However, I am on the opposite side of the world...
diabase, how big of a medical center were you guys dealing with? i saw on an older post you inquired about medical facilities I believe.
TW
Thats another building, this is a 5 level hotel...
what were the details behind the medical, primary use? the one Im working on entails alternative medicine as lead role. it will serve as a retreat with an accompanying hotel/resort bridged to it(completed).
1st lvl - Diagnostic Medical
2nd lvl - Alternative Medical
3rd lvl - Research & Conference
4th lvl - dental/plastic/eye laser surgical
5th lvl - spa, gym, sauna, etc.
This was a private diagnostic lab primarily. My former employee lost the job after I left so it didnt progress to far and I dont have any other info - certainly not as large as what your talking about - Sounds like an interesting project, good luck and keep us posted.
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