But Saarinen's Miller house is just as accurately referred to as Girard's and/or Kiley's Miller House - it is such a shining example of excellence in design *because* it allows each design specialist to work to their fullest in coordination with others. I'd also argue that it remains enchanting because its designers all understood the importance of the change in seasons and how both the order of objects and the chaos of time affect the human psyche.
So yes, architects wear black because we are very serious (very, very serious), but we also know that our buildings need to allow for a little unpredictability...which in some case means socks.
Donna, People who wear all black or the same color everyday are mostly doing so out of convenience – some to make a statement. Why no white? It’s after Labor Day Donna, remember – “No white after Labor Day”. White goes back to the Gilded Age period in American history (late 1800s, early 1900s); wearing white was a symbol of One Percent braggadocio. The Standard Oil’s headed out of town in summer and changed to white then back after Labor Day when they moved back into the City. Rules-Are-Rules!”
Tom Wolfe always wore white and Diane Keaton often wears white in layers which is smashing – but that’s the “Opposite-Rule” which should only be observed on April 1st - on “Opposite Day”.
we wear black because we're mourning for the compromise and loss of hope.
we design in white because of the hope we wish to fulfill.
Ah, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day, And tell the world that everything's OK, But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back, 'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black
Can we talk about something else other than an architect's wardrobe? For example, can we talk about a need for making the process of becoming an architect a little easier and a little cheaper. Can we talk about the need of raising the average salary for an architect. Why? if you are required to have a degree and be licensed, then any one who meets that criteria should be starting out at the mid 60k area(after taxes)regardless of location. Can we talk about why there are architecture firms who insist on having people work for free, especially in this economy. I believe in doing what you love. But you shouldn't have to starve for it, or be in debt, due to student loans, in your 60's or 70's. Maybe I'm wrong.
If you want a higher salary, earn it by putting in the time and effort required, not just whine and demand it "just because". Plenty of young interns I know, myself included, started off at decent salaries. You're not entitled to anything simply because you did not flunk-out, a degree is just that, not a license to make instant cash.
Or, you can start another thread with your topic as the subject... but something tells me that's a little beyond you.
Chris Moody, I've spent many, many hours over the last few weeks preparing a presentation for our Indiana-Kentucky Regional AIA Conference (Friday!) that will address a lot of those very, very serious topics. This post is a pressure valve to let me think about something other than those very, very serious topics for a change. But carry on, because yes, we do need to continue fighting the good fight.
Aside: I usually wear a lot of black, but today my only black is the leather band on my Michael Graves watchband.
times change. we don't get/give decent salaries anymore.
it seems you either make it harder to become an architect, so the quality of our profession and professionals can go up, or you make salaries go down, because you're increasing the pool of architects while decreasing the competency of that pool and decreasing the demand for their services.
if you change the process of becoming an architect to be very selective, but made it based on the competence of the candidate rather than how much time or money they have, i think that would be best for everyone. at least that would be best for those who make it through the gauntlet.
Thom is known to wear a lot of colorful clothing. Much more than black I would say. In fact, I don't think I have seen him wearing black that much in all those forty years or so I've known him.
I like people who are not afraid to wear bright colors, or any color in that sense.
As to wearing black, why not, at least public knows us for something and it looks great on most architects. But it is really a Hollywood thing.
Chris, simply struck by almost everything I read (Newspapers, Magazines etc.) full of articles on what problems are but nowhere do I find many articles about what to do to solve those problems. Please go ahead and start a thread with your stated problems but before you click “Post” make sure you include a list on what should be done to solve those problems, in your opinion. Be warned that most everything you list is totally out of our control but the #1 answer to your success is completely in your grasp – Work hard & long – be enthusiastic & excited about what you do – fight for it and don’t ever, ever give up. Success follows people it doesn’t lead people.
Isn't the architect wearing black mostly a regional thing these days? I don't see many if any architects dressing in black on the west coast certainly, and relatively few in New York doing it anymore. It seems to be more common in the middle states and perhaps Boston. I don't know how architects in the southern states dress as I don't get to that region very often.
As for me I have a dog with white hair so I can't wear black without looking like a mess.
Just google 'Jean Nouvel photos'. All black all the time. And with the shaved head he looks like a large version of Austin Powers' Mini-me.
Oct 1, 14 3:31 pm ·
·
I wear black or sometimes a black waistcoat (business vest) over a light color shirt because my ink that I use with the ruling pen is black and black ink doesn't show if it got onto the shirt.
Black pants also works fine. I usually wear a dress shirt that is white, black, light blue and medium blue shade. The waistcoat is for contrast on the lighter color shirts. The 5 button waistcoat I have works with a variety of clothing attire.
If black ink or graphite got onto the white dress shirts, it shows.
I'm a building designer so I suppose it is okay to actually wear business attire. LOL.
I certainly don't always wear black... But if I am dropping over $2-300 on a piece of clothing, back or grey is my go- to color, simply because it works with more.
Today: Blue jeans, white shirt with cranberry, mint, periwinkle check ( doesn't sound like it would look good, but they go well), cranberry suede shoes, brown belt, brown blazer. No black in that outfit.
I wondered if this conversation would go in the direction of architects doing cold logical structure, interior designers doing the fluffy stuff that humanizes a place, and landscape architects doing the growies. No one is interested in taking that on?
I was just about to wear my white suede shoes to the office but rain was on the horizon... so I choose something else. The sun is out and the clouds have disappeared thou...
Now, how about those engineers with their Old-Navy khakis and faded golf shirts (extra bonus if said shirt was a free corporate gift)? One look at them and you just know that if you turn your back on them they will populate your main lobby with cheap caged fluorescent lights.
The explation for why architects , and other 'intellectuals', wear black I described a while ago in another post. Post-war Paris Left Bank fashion....reads Anne Hollander SEEING THROUGH CLOTHES for the complete story.
As for why architects, modern architecture, like all- white buildings...I think that is more perceptual. White stands out against nature, and contrast agaist the older grey urban background. White is a good choice for showing off form, even small details, sculptural models. White looks clean, new... like an appliance. White photodraphs well especially in black and white. White picks up shadows well. Look at Richard Meier....
Your so right I see a lot of white in modern residential projects. Architecture professors though do not wear so much black at least my professor doesn't.
@Donna, after switching over to the landscape side of things, I have added a significant amount of brown/blue/green to my wardrobe (and back in my engineering days had a lot of khakis and conservative patterned shirts).
Personally, I like a bit of flair with an overall muted palette.
We had an old-school arch prof who ended up with a woman who always wore all pink. One day he stated in studio that his goal for the semester was to see her wear black to studio, she retorted that hers was for him to wear pink. Sadly neither happened. Though it was a pretty hilarious stand-off all semester.
I'd also like to know what the obsession with jet-mist granite is - is it because 'absolute black' is too expensive?
Pristine white walls work well - for about five minutes. Ever been to Vancouver? The climate accelerates the growth of mold. I did not see a single white wall that wasn't some shade of green. You could kill the mold with bleach - in which case you would have a black wall after a few days A stone wall, dry-stacked or mortared, actually looks better wet. Extra points for getting moss to grow on it.
The reason modern architecture used white had its roots on healthy living and sanitation as most turn of the 19th. century examples of hospitals, sanatoriums and the like supported that claim. White uniform of doctors and nurses etc. That is the real beginnings.
I think the funniest comment is tammuz's second line.
btw, why do you guys see everything tammuz says is an attack on your ass? because he is smarter than you and it is a no no coming from someone from middle east/arab?
as far as i know he writes more passionately (and better) than most of you non entities writing mostly personal attacks, combined. you know who you are...
Oct 2, 14 3:43 pm ·
·
Actually it would be turn of the 20th century with progressive modernism and the associated "sanitary living" thoughts of the time which includes germiphobia which was heighten during this time due to major plagues, flus and other illness epidemics and then introduction of the medical field that evolved into the modern medical field we know today as well as licensing. It was all part of cultural responses stemming from the industrial revolution and the changes in our culture, values, responses, etc. which was all happening in a big change from the mid-19th century, the Civil War, the time after and so forth.
There is a definite yet complex linkage but this involves looking at this not just in the eyes of architecture but also the from the lens of history, geography (human/cultural geography & to some degree - physical geography).
Look at this from this other perspectives and you'll understand the complex linkage of all these things. I don't think it is possible to accurately state these kinds of things in a couple sentences.
orhan, if that's so i missed it. can you post something tammuz said here that doesn't involve the sort of politics/negativity/hate he likes so much, and something more substantive than 'architecture is a violin?'
he has some posts with quondam that shows he can type big words, generally in such a way that expresses he does know the definition of those words. however, it never seemed to me he had the genuineness i thought that came from quondam. that, of course, is just my perception based on a limited frame of reference. from my recollection, he typically reacts to what's said, generally critically, without actually coming up with his own ideas.
i certainly don't harbor any illusions that you care what i think, but i acknowledge i'm not perfect, and if tammuz has ever shown he's actually capable of intelligent thought outside of just trying to put big words into a sentence, then i'd reconsider the views i hold towards him. then again, if you think googling words he sees quondam use counts as more intelligent than most people here, i guess that is what it is and there isn't much more to say.
it's not islamophobia that's causing negative reactions. it's because he's an asshole.
menona, actually it is mostly polyester. i get it from nordstorm's rack located next to our apartment. it is one of their own brands called 14th and union. i like the cut of them as they have many sizes to accommodate and they come in some nice colors i like to wear. made in china. nothing precious nor expensive.
i also wear this every once in a while (today, inspired by donna's thread) that was gifted from miss ayyuce. now, this is a collector's item from dirk bikkembergs circa 80's with asymmetrical cuffs. it's made from viscose and acetate. second picture is more like the colors. my roman friends in turkey really like it and when i wear it they say i am one of them making me very happy.
Because architects are exclusivist (what else is minimalism), black being the exclusion of all colours?
Anonymous modern architecture: in white
Anonymous modern architect: in black
Don't some architects like to make white scale models with black figurine cutouts representing people? Isn't that somehow equally a personal modelling?
I think wearing black means your above the superficial titilations of colour, kind of like advertizing your extra deep thinking. Plus, you won't ever run a foul of screwing up color coordinations, thus advertizing your lack of artistic talent. It's also cheap and practical.
As for the white building thing, I think Ohran and Baklkins have it right. The full absorption of science into the mainstream at the turn of the 20th century made cleanliness a moral crusade, at least for people like Corbu and Hitler. Granted, one wanted to white wash urbanism while the other wanted to white wash society, but both seem to have roots in the idea that society could be cleansed.
"btw, why do you guys see everything tammuz says is an attack on your ass? because he is smarter than you and it is a no no coming from someone from middle east/arab?"
Really? Maybe if he didn't peddle in personal accusations and tie everything into the injustices of the middle east, he wouldn't get a serving of what he so liberally dishes out. Why don't you lend him that flower shirt, (sans the black v-neck)? It brightened up my day!
A rabid pack out to lynch someone who had previously criticized them over their faulty logic and stupidity on totally different and varied topics.
. Note that it is not me dragging irrelevant issues here but started with gwharton, then curtkram (who stoops down now to personal insults and name calling) and Thayer-D. A choir of harpies channeling their personal pettiness.
Boy I must really be exasperating your inflamed hemorrhoids. .
I'll have to hit Nordstrom's this weekend and make a search. I like the invisible placket at the buttons. And polyester... interesting. Silky, but machine washable.
So the other shirt... is that a button on one cuff and a snap on the other? That would be a nice touch. To make the architectural connection - reminds me of Lutyens. There's the big formal order that's all symmetry and sameness and the expected. Then there's just a little touch of irregularity in a connection detail on opposite sides, and the smaller locations here and there.
If architects wear black, why is so much Modern architecture white?
A very nice blog post about Saarinen's Miller House, that in my mind is correct: architecture is serious business, and black is a serious color.
In black and white and color
But Saarinen's Miller house is just as accurately referred to as Girard's and/or Kiley's Miller House - it is such a shining example of excellence in design *because* it allows each design specialist to work to their fullest in coordination with others. I'd also argue that it remains enchanting because its designers all understood the importance of the change in seasons and how both the order of objects and the chaos of time affect the human psyche.
So yes, architects wear black because we are very serious (very, very serious), but we also know that our buildings need to allow for a little unpredictability...which in some case means socks.
I wear very little black... unless you count the black ink on my hands from my fountain pen.
I wear a lot of grey.
.
Donna, People who wear all black or the same color everyday are mostly doing so out of convenience – some to make a statement. Why no white? It’s after Labor Day Donna, remember – “No white after Labor Day”. White goes back to the Gilded Age period in American history (late 1800s, early 1900s); wearing white was a symbol of One Percent braggadocio. The Standard Oil’s headed out of town in summer and changed to white then back after Labor Day when they moved back into the City. Rules-Are-Rules!”
Tom Wolfe always wore white and Diane Keaton often wears white in layers which is smashing – but that’s the “Opposite-Rule” which should only be observed on April 1st - on “Opposite Day”.
we wear black because we're mourning for the compromise and loss of hope.
we design in white because of the hope we wish to fulfill.
Ah, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day,
And tell the world that everything's OK,
But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back,
'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black
--johnny cash
Can we talk about something else other than an architect's wardrobe? For example, can we talk about a need for making the process of becoming an architect a little easier and a little cheaper. Can we talk about the need of raising the average salary for an architect. Why? if you are required to have a degree and be licensed, then any one who meets that criteria should be starting out at the mid 60k area(after taxes)regardless of location. Can we talk about why there are architecture firms who insist on having people work for free, especially in this economy. I believe in doing what you love. But you shouldn't have to starve for it, or be in debt, due to student loans, in your 60's or 70's. Maybe I'm wrong.
^irrelevant to the topic of colour is it not?
If you want a higher salary, earn it by putting in the time and effort required, not just whine and demand it "just because". Plenty of young interns I know, myself included, started off at decent salaries. You're not entitled to anything simply because you did not flunk-out, a degree is just that, not a license to make instant cash.
Or, you can start another thread with your topic as the subject... but something tells me that's a little beyond you.
Oh curtkram, that's beautiful.
Chris Moody, I've spent many, many hours over the last few weeks preparing a presentation for our Indiana-Kentucky Regional AIA Conference (Friday!) that will address a lot of those very, very serious topics. This post is a pressure valve to let me think about something other than those very, very serious topics for a change. But carry on, because yes, we do need to continue fighting the good fight.
Aside: I usually wear a lot of black, but today my only black is the leather band on my Michael Graves watchband.
times change. we don't get/give decent salaries anymore.
it seems you either make it harder to become an architect, so the quality of our profession and professionals can go up, or you make salaries go down, because you're increasing the pool of architects while decreasing the competency of that pool and decreasing the demand for their services.
if you change the process of becoming an architect to be very selective, but made it based on the competence of the candidate rather than how much time or money they have, i think that would be best for everyone. at least that would be best for those who make it through the gauntlet.
^Curt, that's a fine description of a gauntlet. Too many sketch-up monkeys asking for doctor monies.
Thom is known to wear a lot of colorful clothing. Much more than black I would say. In fact, I don't think I have seen him wearing black that much in all those forty years or so I've known him.
I like people who are not afraid to wear bright colors, or any color in that sense.
As to wearing black, why not, at least public knows us for something and it looks great on most architects. But it is really a Hollywood thing.
Chris, simply struck by almost everything I read (Newspapers, Magazines etc.) full of articles on what problems are but nowhere do I find many articles about what to do to solve those problems. Please go ahead and start a thread with your stated problems but before you click “Post” make sure you include a list on what should be done to solve those problems, in your opinion. Be warned that most everything you list is totally out of our control but the #1 answer to your success is completely in your grasp – Work hard & long – be enthusiastic & excited about what you do – fight for it and don’t ever, ever give up. Success follows people it doesn’t lead people.
Isn't the architect wearing black mostly a regional thing these days? I don't see many if any architects dressing in black on the west coast certainly, and relatively few in New York doing it anymore. It seems to be more common in the middle states and perhaps Boston. I don't know how architects in the southern states dress as I don't get to that region very often.
As for me I have a dog with white hair so I can't wear black without looking like a mess.
Just google 'Jean Nouvel photos'. All black all the time. And with the shaved head he looks like a large version of Austin Powers' Mini-me.
I wear black or sometimes a black waistcoat (business vest) over a light color shirt because my ink that I use with the ruling pen is black and black ink doesn't show if it got onto the shirt.
Black pants also works fine. I usually wear a dress shirt that is white, black, light blue and medium blue shade. The waistcoat is for contrast on the lighter color shirts. The 5 button waistcoat I have works with a variety of clothing attire.
If black ink or graphite got onto the white dress shirts, it shows.
I'm a building designer so I suppose it is okay to actually wear business attire. LOL.
It's because architects spend their days in front of computers and don't exercise. The black clothing disguises their weak, skinnyfat bodies.
Today I can take my red shirt off and be in black. But I won't.
I certainly don't always wear black... But if I am dropping over $2-300 on a piece of clothing, back or grey is my go- to color, simply because it works with more. Today: Blue jeans, white shirt with cranberry, mint, periwinkle check ( doesn't sound like it would look good, but they go well), cranberry suede shoes, brown belt, brown blazer. No black in that outfit.
I wondered if this conversation would go in the direction of architects doing cold logical structure, interior designers doing the fluffy stuff that humanizes a place, and landscape architects doing the growies. No one is interested in taking that on?
I was just about to wear my white suede shoes to the office but rain was on the horizon... so I choose something else. The sun is out and the clouds have disappeared thou...
Now, how about those engineers with their Old-Navy khakis and faded golf shirts (extra bonus if said shirt was a free corporate gift)? One look at them and you just know that if you turn your back on them they will populate your main lobby with cheap caged fluorescent lights.
The explation for why architects , and other 'intellectuals', wear black I described a while ago in another post. Post-war Paris Left Bank fashion....reads Anne Hollander SEEING THROUGH CLOTHES for the complete story.
As for why architects, modern architecture, like all- white buildings...I think that is more perceptual. White stands out against nature, and contrast agaist the older grey urban background. White is a good choice for showing off form, even small details, sculptural models. White looks clean, new... like an appliance. White photodraphs well especially in black and white. White picks up shadows well. Look at Richard Meier....
Your so right I see a lot of white in modern residential projects. Architecture professors though do not wear so much black at least my professor doesn't.
I wear pearl snaps.
There was a Thread in '08 called "Black buildings or all black rooms?" My favorite was:
Just follow what karl lagrafeld sets as as trend this year and you will set
@Donna, after switching over to the landscape side of things, I have added a significant amount of brown/blue/green to my wardrobe (and back in my engineering days had a lot of khakis and conservative patterned shirts).
Personally, I like a bit of flair with an overall muted palette.
We had an old-school arch prof who ended up with a woman who always wore all pink. One day he stated in studio that his goal for the semester was to see her wear black to studio, she retorted that hers was for him to wear pink. Sadly neither happened. Though it was a pretty hilarious stand-off all semester.
I'd also like to know what the obsession with jet-mist granite is - is it because 'absolute black' is too expensive?
Pristine white walls work well - for about five minutes. Ever been to Vancouver? The climate accelerates the growth of mold. I did not see a single white wall that wasn't some shade of green. You could kill the mold with bleach - in which case you would have a black wall after a few days A stone wall, dry-stacked or mortared, actually looks better wet. Extra points for getting moss to grow on it.
Architecture as the play of forms in light...in extreme, white
The architect always dwelling in the shadow of her or his architecture...in extreme, black
^^^^ I'm shocked that tammuz did not blame European colonialism for the unbearable whiteness of modern architecture.
The reason modern architecture used white had its roots on healthy living and sanitation as most turn of the 19th. century examples of hospitals, sanatoriums and the like supported that claim. White uniform of doctors and nurses etc. That is the real beginnings.
I think the funniest comment is tammuz's second line.
btw, why do you guys see everything tammuz says is an attack on your ass? because he is smarter than you and it is a no no coming from someone from middle east/arab?
^ copy-pasting sloganistic rhetoric is not a sign of intelligence, it is dogmatic philosophy.
as far as i know he writes more passionately (and better) than most of you non entities writing mostly personal attacks, combined. you know who you are...
Actually it would be turn of the 20th century with progressive modernism and the associated "sanitary living" thoughts of the time which includes germiphobia which was heighten during this time due to major plagues, flus and other illness epidemics and then introduction of the medical field that evolved into the modern medical field we know today as well as licensing. It was all part of cultural responses stemming from the industrial revolution and the changes in our culture, values, responses, etc. which was all happening in a big change from the mid-19th century, the Civil War, the time after and so forth.
There is a definite yet complex linkage but this involves looking at this not just in the eyes of architecture but also the from the lens of history, geography (human/cultural geography & to some degree - physical geography).
Look at this from this other perspectives and you'll understand the complex linkage of all these things. I don't think it is possible to accurately state these kinds of things in a couple sentences.
Black hides the coffee stains.
orhan, if that's so i missed it. can you post something tammuz said here that doesn't involve the sort of politics/negativity/hate he likes so much, and something more substantive than 'architecture is a violin?'
he has some posts with quondam that shows he can type big words, generally in such a way that expresses he does know the definition of those words. however, it never seemed to me he had the genuineness i thought that came from quondam. that, of course, is just my perception based on a limited frame of reference. from my recollection, he typically reacts to what's said, generally critically, without actually coming up with his own ideas.
i certainly don't harbor any illusions that you care what i think, but i acknowledge i'm not perfect, and if tammuz has ever shown he's actually capable of intelligent thought outside of just trying to put big words into a sentence, then i'd reconsider the views i hold towards him. then again, if you think googling words he sees quondam use counts as more intelligent than most people here, i guess that is what it is and there isn't much more to say.
it's not islamophobia that's causing negative reactions. it's because he's an asshole.
I want to know more about Orhan's shirt.
Is that silk? Or from the picture on my screen it almost looks like some sort of felt. Stitching looks expensive?
Or is it just a plain old cotton shirt? Still looks good in the photo though.
we wear black because we dont get paid shit. no reason to make it a logic.
menona, actually it is mostly polyester. i get it from nordstorm's rack located next to our apartment. it is one of their own brands called 14th and union. i like the cut of them as they have many sizes to accommodate and they come in some nice colors i like to wear. made in china. nothing precious nor expensive.
i also wear this every once in a while (today, inspired by donna's thread) that was gifted from miss ayyuce. now, this is a collector's item from dirk bikkembergs circa 80's with asymmetrical cuffs. it's made from viscose and acetate. second picture is more like the colors. my roman friends in turkey really like it and when i wear it they say i am one of them making me very happy.
Because architects are exclusivist (what else is minimalism), black being the exclusion of all colours?
Anonymous modern architecture: in white
Anonymous modern architect: in black
Don't some architects like to make white scale models with black figurine cutouts representing people? Isn't that somehow equally a personal modelling?
Orhan, you're a brave man...on more than one count ; )
The first part, wearing black:
How would it look if you wern't on trend? Or even worse...wearing a fad?
It's a smart move to stick with the classic.
The second part, buildings white:
Always a great back drop for a fashion photo shoot no matter what colors are trending.
I think wearing black means your above the superficial titilations of colour, kind of like advertizing your extra deep thinking. Plus, you won't ever run a foul of screwing up color coordinations, thus advertizing your lack of artistic talent. It's also cheap and practical.
As for the white building thing, I think Ohran and Baklkins have it right. The full absorption of science into the mainstream at the turn of the 20th century made cleanliness a moral crusade, at least for people like Corbu and Hitler. Granted, one wanted to white wash urbanism while the other wanted to white wash society, but both seem to have roots in the idea that society could be cleansed.
"btw, why do you guys see everything tammuz says is an attack on your ass? because he is smarter than you and it is a no no coming from someone from middle east/arab?"
Really? Maybe if he didn't peddle in personal accusations and tie everything into the injustices of the middle east, he wouldn't get a serving of what he so liberally dishes out. Why don't you lend him that flower shirt, (sans the black v-neck)? It brightened up my day!
A rabid pack out to lynch someone who had previously criticized them over their faulty logic and stupidity on totally different and varied topics. . Note that it is not me dragging irrelevant issues here but started with gwharton, then curtkram (who stoops down now to personal insults and name calling) and Thayer-D. A choir of harpies channeling their personal pettiness. Boy I must really be exasperating your inflamed hemorrhoids. .
TAMMUZ, stay in your own sandbox. No need to infect everything with your politics.
I'll have to hit Nordstrom's this weekend and make a search. I like the invisible placket at the buttons. And polyester... interesting. Silky, but machine washable.
So the other shirt... is that a button on one cuff and a snap on the other? That would be a nice touch. To make the architectural connection - reminds me of Lutyens. There's the big formal order that's all symmetry and sameness and the expected. Then there's just a little touch of irregularity in a connection detail on opposite sides, and the smaller locations here and there.
Thanks for the info Orhan.
All this talk of white and sanitation is making me think back to the naming of White Castle.
If it is of any interest, I'm wearing a dark purple dress-shirt, without breast pocket because those things are terrible.
donna - i have a picture of you standing next to me. wearing pink.
go figure.
*hugs*
greg
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