I am not answering those questions. My cases are few and far in between due to very thorough matters which includes a written agreement and the goal is not to settle out of court where possible.
If you are sued rampantly in court, it is not a good thing. What I am getting at is simple, preponderance of fact. If defendent denies any contractual agreement, then the lack of tangible evidence of contract would place the evidence on the side of the defendent. Plaintiff ALWAYS is the one that begins the case with the Burden of Proof and must promptly shift the burden of proof onto the defendent. If that can not be done, the plaintiff has failed the preponderance of fact and the defendent's claim shall be deemed true. Only when the plaintiff has proven they had an agreement.
Who's to say the plaintiffs just made up the case?
Does the plaintiffs (model makers) have the model or a photo of it? Yes or No. Even if they did have the model, who is to say there was an agreement. If there was an agreement... this can still be disputed and holes picked such as whether or not the defendent agreed to pay. That is the part that still ultimately matters.
Are we sure that the defendent (Jeff Svitak) want to pay for models made or simply wanted some model makers to make the model. What exactly was said and agreed on, word for word. That is what needs to be proven otherwise, there is still a problem because it is each part of the agreement that must be confirmed.
Even if there was an agreement by the defendent that there was an agreement, there can still be contesting of what was agreed on and not agreed on. That is an ugly situation.
I wouldn't waste my time on suing unless I was able to prove my case. I don't face cases regarding verbal contracts like this because I don't use verbal contracts. I wouldn't have to prove the existance of my contract in order to get my claim for relief.
I wouldn't have issues where the defendent may deny having a contract because it would be written and signed in duplicate or triplicate form. Holy Moly you may say but damn right.
There is a reason why I do. A verbal contract can be entirely fictitious and never existed and therefore just hearsay or a bad confusion. Therefore, a defendent may raise a case of confused students with a dillusion which is all just to cast doubt on the plaintiff.
It becomes a lot like a political debate between two political candidates.
Don't the students have better things to do like move on to other projects and their professional lives.
If they did a written contract, one of two things would have happened from the beginning:
1) A signed agreement confirming all parties to contract has read and understood the agreement.
or
2) No contract would have been made and the model would never have been made and therefore the investmen would not have happened and save the heartache of trying to collect the $2000.
I have never seen someone write so much while saying so little. Seriously, this is bonkers: A verbal contract can be entirely fictitious and never existed and therefore just hearsay or a bad confusion. Therefore, a defendent may raise a case of confused students with a dillusion which is all just to cast doubt on the plaintiff.
Please, folks, do not listen to this man.
A written contract or signed invoice would have been great, I don't think anyone is arguing that. They do, however, have enough to go to small claims. The model is proof of an agreement. The shop co-manager knew of the agreement. No judge is going to believe that two students undertook to build a model of an "architect's" un-built building, with drawings they somehow had access to, on their own time, over a break, at cost (in materials) to themselves, and then draft an invoice for it. At the very least they would recoup some of their costs. This would not be a long and protracted legal battle.
Richard, we all get it, writing things down trumps verbal. Judges in our state got so tired of architects arguing over verbal agreements that it is now illegal to do architectural services without a written contract – I have always been big on written contracts, even do something I call “Memo of Understanding” on tiny things – but – lawyers wipe there asses with paper contracts and can argue over the meaning of the word “is”. Written is good, better but no guarantee.
Now – before we go any further I think its past time – where is the picture of this model we are all waxed up about? Its time – show me the 3 legged chair.
this use of unnecessary capital letters is bourgeoisie and insulting to the proletariat that keeps your economy moving. no more capital letters. especially no more entire words written in capital letter unless you're trying to stamp your foot over the working class.
How many times have you been to small claims court? How many times have you litigated over fees?
I am not answering those questions. My cases are few and far in between due to very thorough matters which includes a written agreement and the goal is not to settle out of court where possible.
Richard, you are quite simply full of shit. You won't answer the question, but you then imply you have been in court, and that you prefer NOT to settle put of court. LOL!
I've been in protracted litigation and I've been in small claims court. The former is something you want to avoid at all costs while the latter is as close to justice as you can get in this country without the expense of lawyers over a duration measured in years (or more) and all the games played in that arena (you have no idea, or to be more precise less than no idea).
Few and far between in this case means never. The more you go on and on and on the more blatantly obvious this becomes. Among the more conspicuous aspects of your bullshit is the simple fact that written contracts are only worth as much as you can spend to try to enforce them, and in this arena the clients most often have a hefty weight advantage over the architect. But as you've never been there I don't expect you to have even a cursory understanding of how such things really work. For your own sake you should put a cork in it and move on.
Jaffe's First Law The value of a service is inversely proportional to its degree of completion.
Jaffe's Second Law If you need a lawyer it's already too late.
Oct 9, 14 10:08 am ·
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cocococo,
Have you ever heard of people have came to courts claiming a verbal agreement exist but there never was. In other words, they lied or they sorely misunderstood and thought there was an agreement.
So such "verbal agreements" can be entirely fictitious.
There has to be an agreement. An agreement require parties on each side of the contract to agree to the terms. The question is there a contractual agreement BETWEEN Olivia8880/BrandonWarner and Jeff Svitak. It doesn't matter if there was an agreement between Jeff and the Co-Manager. What matters is did Olivia and Brandon have an agreement with Jeff.
Even if there was a verbal agreement. The question is between which parties is the agreement with. Jeff came to the co-manager. The co-manager came with the project to the students. It's potentially a privity of contract matter.
The question is, who agreed to pay. But for Olivia & Brandon to seek financial relief (their $2000) they have to prove they have a verbal agreement with the defendent Jeff Svitak. The contract with the co-manager is not necessarily a contract between them and Jeff. The question lies in how the arrangement is understood by all parties.
As to who is responsible for paying? Did Jeff agree to pay or did the shop co-manager?
Take this for example: (Text book example from the CCB's Oregon Contractors Reference Manual)
"An owner contracts with a general contractor to build an addition to a house, including installation of electrical wiring. Instead of performing this work directly, the general contractor contracts with a subcontractor to perform the electrical work. The electrician is a subcontractor of the general contractor.
The owner and the general contractor have signed one contract, and are in privity of contract. The electrician and general contractor are parties to a separate contract for the electrical work and are in privity of contract with each other. Since the owner and the electrician have not signed the same contract, the electrician is not in privity of contract with the property owner."
This case can very well be similar.
Hypothetically for example:
"Jeff contracts the University craft shop co-manager ( "general or prime contractor") and has formed an agreement to have a model built and are in privity of contract. Instead of physically doing the model himself/herself, the co-manager sub-contracts the model building to the two students Brandon & Olivia. Even though the duties of the contract to be performed are the same, the agreement of contract matters. The student's agreement in this hypothetical example is with the co-manager. Even if Jeff was present at the time of the contract, the contract between the students and shop co-manager is a separate contract agreement to that of the prior agreement between Jeff and the craft shop."
If this is the case, then Jeff may not actually be a party to the contract agreement. There is two seperate agreements. On previous existing agreement between Jeff and the craft shop co-manager. That maybe how Jeff understands the arrangement. Since his agreement with the co-manager may have been that he wouldn't be paying for anything or otherwise not as much and feel he has no contractual obligation to pay the students.
Who explicitly agreed to pay for the model and to whom was the payment agreement to be paid to.
Even if an agreement can be proven to exist. The matter of proof is not just that, it is who is the contract between. Jeff may have been present to explain the conditions of what he wants of the model which he had with is contract agreement with the shop and agreed to relay that to the subcontractors. (ie. the students) This should not be construed to be a contract between Jeff and the students but between the Students and the primary contractor (the school/craft shop co-manager or whoever this began with).
The burden of proof still is with the plaintiff (model making subcontractors - ie. the students) and the defendent (Jeff Svitak).
That can be a tricky situation. The hard part is understanding such a verbal agreement is really what the contractual relationship is. Especially a poorly executed one at that.
We got only the student's perspective. We don't have all parties in this cluster f--- arrangement.
Oct 9, 14 10:13 am ·
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Jaffe's
I preper to resolve disputes before going to court. Since, it is a matter of weighing the benefit of going to court. The bottom line is do I want to be spending a day in court and weeks preparing for one and then weeks trying to collect after court or I can be investing my time on going after new projects and getting paid.
Why throw more time and money if you have very little chance of getting anything in the end.
Move on to the next project and learn how to build a stronger and better contract agreement with proof that would disuade persuing lawsuits when the obligation to pay is clear.
Oct 9, 14 10:19 am ·
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I would pursue small claims if I have a written, signed and dated contract, photos of the work if not the work itself (instruments of my service and all) and have a clear argument prepared.
This situation is messy because they don't have a clear agreement. A written contract would be clear about who are the parties, what the contract is, what is pay.
Basic parts o a contract:
- parties with legal capacity
- The Offer
- Acceptance
- Valid Legal Purpose
- Consideration (ie. relates to the Offer. It is remuneration and relates to the price and what is promised in terms of payment method & schedule and so forth... in other word the agreement or promise to compensate for doing said offer in the contract and manner in how that would be rendered.)
We aren't taking about thousands of dollars in court costs
Oct 9, 14 11:01 am ·
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Sure, it doesn't cost money but your time is money when you aren't moving forward with other projects and that is where you lose money potential.
Lets say one was an employee at a place as well. They have to go to court, they miss a day's work which means they lose $80 on top of that if not their job because they didn't show up to work. Unlike jury duty, going to court when you are either the plaintiff or defendent does not protect you from one's employment being terminated. It happens. A student often has some part-time job which even a small amount of money is big and significant.
It isn't much in court costs but small claims cost varies from one place to another.
In Oregon awards up to $10,000 plus court costs. If this was in Oregon, this case would apply. If it is just this kind of amount, I would pursue small claims. Not an issue. However, like any court, I would have the facts to back and support my case. This is why I would use a written contract even for small stuff like this. Okay. Otherwise, I'm trying to prove something intangible. If I were to use oral agreement, it would be recorded.
NYS small claims cost $15 and takes a few minutes to file. The act of filing is more than often enough to get someone to pay up for the very reasons you use to argue against filing: time, expense, inconvenience, etc., especially when they know they are in the wrong. Lots of people try to get away with shit like this because they think they can. And they will if you let them.
Verbal contracts are as valid as written ones. Look it up and do some research before spouting off like some law school professor. You're literally burying yourself with the repetition of ignorance. The more you blather on about what you don't know about ... oh, never mind.
Oct 9, 14 11:27 am ·
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Miles,
In ALL courts, a contract must be proven to exist in order for any reward of unpaid remuneration. A contract between plaintiff and defendent must be proven because there must be a CONTRACTUAL RELATIONSHIP between the plaintiff and defendent. This refers back to the Privity of Contract.
Contract law 101 !!!!
The burden of proof (the legal term applies to civil cases) is with the Plaintiff.
Verbal is valid as any if you can bring that agreement to court. Is there a recording of the agreement made?
Put yourself in their position usine the given facts provided. Where is the proof the agreement exists between Plaintiff and Defendent (in this case assuming the targer defendent is Jeff Svitas).
I've seen claims of verbal agreements disregarded and deemed hearsay because of the lack of proof by the plaintiff because they lack convincing proof.
Just saying there was an agreement is not enough. That's just their words vs. the othet. Unless the defendent confirms an agreement was made and the terms of the agreement, you got an endless ping pong of who's word to believe.
Considering that Jeff Svitak is probably more experienced with courts than the students, he would probably be more convincing because he can compose himself unless he is a real idiot. Composure in the court room and air of confidence is what would be the pursuation factor.
Do we know who the agreement is between, actually?
You have to bring your evidence to the court room.
There is nothing indicated like an email or text message by Jeff referencing a verbal agreement. If you have proof then you are one step of the way. What is still needs to be proved is if there is an contract agreement between Brandon/Olivia and Jeff Svitak. There has to be that part proven. Not that there was a verbal contract between Olivia/Brandon and the craft shop co-manager and that Jeff was a witness to that contract while his contract is between the co-manager and him. Refer back to Privity of Contract. Thinkin from the Owner<->Prime contractor (GC) and Prime-contractor<->Sub-contractor contracts and that they are two contracts or two separate verbal contracts.
Who do you sue?
Oct 9, 14 11:51 am ·
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When you get down to the issue, on the strict letter of law, I would agree that verbal contracts are valid but the problems is proving one exist and to do so, you need the supporting evidence. Proving anything has to have supporting evidence. It is not possible in the laws of physics to prove a unrecorded verbal agreement unless you have supporting witnesses, any evidence or acknowledgement by the defendent that a verbal contract exist such as email, text message or confirmation in the court by the defendent. It isn't as good as a written contract unless it is recorded. It makes explicitly clear what the agreement was (as clear or muddy as it may be).
You can't possibly believe a verbal agreement is better than a written agreement and a verbal agreement is seldom coherent except on the most simplest of contracts/projects.
Without a recording or a witness that can recite nearly word for word the verbal agreement, you need to rely on the defendent to essentially prove your verbal agreement exist.
That's a lot of conjecture on a situation that would be sorted out by any judge in less time than it takes to read and understand your scrawl. This is what the process is for.
That marks the end of my input on this; it's like arguing with a post (column?) at this point.. I hope the students aren't discouraged from taking any option available to them if they'd like to collect.
^Richard, since there is a built model (I hope), that should be enough evidence that some sort of agreement existed. The only thing unknown is the agreed amount of compensation.
Oct 9, 14 12:22 pm ·
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The question then is, who currently possesses the model? If they have the model, that is better than they would be if the defendent has the model because if he does, that model can be destroyed and unrecoverable and then he could deny having the model unless there is third party witness to him taking the model and so forth.
There is several true unknowns unless proven.
1) Is there an agreement between Jeff and Olivia/Brandon
2) Is there an agreement to pay.
3) Is the agreement between Olivia/Brandon and the campus craft shop co-manager even through the craft shop manger had some degree of an agreement with Jeff prior to it being brought to Oliva/Brandon.
Was there an agreement to pay at time contract was made and with whom? Who is the party agreeing to pay?
Even better than a written contract in this instance would have been for the students to require a 25 percent payment up front and (for a six week project) an additional 25 percent payment every two weeks. The client could stop by every two weeks to check on the project and drop off the check to continue the work.
I have really enjoyed seeing this discussion derail from the actual reality of collecting fees. It has become apparent who has and who has not had experience with such situations.
and who has never found themselves...ever...in a court of law, participating or spectating.
I would recommend that one take a day to sit through a small claims court session and see how the process works...it can be quite illuminating (nudge nudge Mr. Balkins)
All this reminds me of a story about Morris Lapidus, a 2x4, and an owner in Miami.
Watch People's Court, SneakyPete. It's basically a small claims. So is Judge Judy. It's an arbitration proceeding more or less. Bottom line: Verbal agreements are problematic for the very reason it is INTANGIBLE and it is one guys word vs. the other. Is there ever such an agreement ever made. EVERY STATUTORY LAW governing civil law proceedings in EVERY SINGLE STATE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE MUNICIPAL COURT places the Burden of Proof on the Plaintiff UNLESS the Plaintiff can shift the burden of proof by making the case a prima facie case.
WHAT DO YOU NEED TO MAKE A CASE A PRIMA FACIE CASE ?
Our judicial system always by default places the burden of proof on the plaintiff as they also do on the prosecutor. It is the statutory code of law of this country since the beginning of the United States.
This is a contractual payment dispute. There has to be a contract. If the defendent denies a contract agreement was ever made then all the defendent has to do is deny an agreement was made. Sure, you can prove there was an agreement but with WHO is the problem. Is their contract with Jeff Svitas or is it will the co-manager of the campus craft workshop?
Who agreed to pay?
Can you prove the agreement to pay?
Oct 9, 14 3:02 pm ·
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With a written, signed and dated agreement, there would not be these questions as it would be already answered through tangible record.
^ From a person who gets their legal knowledge from watching daytime tv.
For many small jobs a written contract isn't worth the expense, complexity and time involved in review, negotiation, legal review, etc. Why don't you ask judge Judy about that? I think most of her cases on based on verbal agreements.
The number of people who think they are entitled to give legal advice is akin to the number of people that think they are capable of giving architecture advice.
Richard has proven himself to be that annoying in-law who watches way too much DIY channel and will one day fuck up their own house but for now is content to pick at others with advice based on a questionable breadth of experience.
I bet he even says occasionally "I could have been an attorney but I never had the _____ skills" insert, lawyer equivalent of math, drawing, or whatever small aspect of the profession you focus on that allows you to believe the rest of it would have been so easy.
miles, pretty sure we say 'nancy grace' instead of judge judy now. how passe.
Oct 9, 14 3:41 pm ·
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Miles how hard is it to even have the most simple of written contract:
You can even delete Warranty terms and the general terms lines and replace with Print name line, Signature line, date line for buyer and Model Maker (change service provider to fit your better. How hard is it to do that.
Keeping to two to three short to medium length sentences. Use 'shall' to denote mandatory requirements. No lawyer is needed. Make duplicate or triplicate copies as needed. For the model building the contract can be VERY simple like this. For building design contracts or architectural services contracts, it would be more sophisticated.
The template above could just about be downloaded and used with minimal effort of change.
Richard... Tons of evidence to support there was a agreement. They probably have the drawings, had meetings, and the guy even reviewed the work. If they made it up, why have all that? Judges aren't stupid. So, establishing there was a relationship there isn't rocket science. Then there is the model itself... the thing that client wasn't thrilled with.
Verbal contracts are quite enforceable. I've done litigation cases where there weren't any contracts at all on rather large projects; handshake deals aren't uncommon. It just defaults to the Standard of Care on how these things normally work. Actually, the best written contract has a issue when you verbally or just do things different than the contract; That can be considered amending the contract too. And that happens a ton... like email questions instead of a formal RFI. Think your answer on a email isn't going to be enforceable like the RFI? lol...
I've also done small-claims. I'd guess, worst case, is the judge would say they built it on good faith and if the client told them it was shit at 2/3 done, might award 2/3 the contract. If it really does look like piss poor work, he might side with the defense though. Best case is the judge might look up how much a real model cost that isn't lowballed to students and award them everything, including court fees. Judges are real people too... some are cool, some are pricks, some are bored and just want you out of their room so they can eat lunch.... but as real people, they also loathe people who buck the system (like hiring unskilled) and expect professional results (which they should have hired in the first place).
Hutz: Mr. Burns, we've got witnesses, precedent and a paper trail a mile long. Burns: Yes. But I have ten high-priced lawyers. Hutz: Ya, ya, yaaa!!! [runs out of office] Homer: He left his briefcase. Hey, it's full of shredded newspaper.
It is bad form for a lawyer to refer to himself as "Esquire" or "Esq". Might as well append the term "Asshole" instead and be done with it.
Oct 9, 14 9:54 pm ·
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mightyaa,
Good points but the proof is who is the client of Olivia/Brandon. The co-manager or Jeff Svitas?
Who is the agreement of contract with? If Olivia/Brandon are subcontracted to the co-manager then Olivia/Brandon can not charge Jeff for the service because Jeff and Olivia/Brandon do not have a contractual relationship with each other. Something called, "Privity of Contract".
Two separate contracts. One between co-manager of workshop and Jeff Svitas. The other between Olivia/Brandon and co-manager of workshop.
If that is the case, why would Jeff pay someone for services he is not in contract with.
There needs to be a contract between Jeff and Oliva/Brandon DIRECTLY on one contractual agreement.
That is what needs to be proven in the preponderance of facts.
Remember, a simple denial is all that the defendent needs to do and raise dispute. Plaintiff has the burdent of proof not the defendent until the plaintiff proves their point.
I'm done debating this. You brought a collegial points and I decided to respond to you but I'm done with debating this with other. I raised the point here. Unrecorded verbal agreements are very difficult to prove unless the defendent is plain out dumb and stupid. If the defendent can lie and lie convincingly and get away with it. It happens every day, just about. Not that I would suggest it but it happens all the time.
Judges maybe smart but they can't always detect b.s. especially if the person knows how to talk sharply and b.s. on the fly like a master and make it believable and plausible. Like a damn good politician or lawyer.
It's kind of exciting to see such a volume of discussion on what should be a fairly dry issue. The overwhelming disagreement about what constitutes an enforceable contract obscures the more important question of who actually expected what here.
@Brandon + Olivia: Did Jeff Spivek know that you (2 students) were going to be making this model? From Olivia's post, it sounds like he intended to hire the shop manager to build this. That's a pretty important distinction - and I feel he may not be the party at fault if he intended to hire a skilled model-maker but later found out this was being done by students instead. In this case your shop manager is at fault and you're likely to get screwed if you can't work something out with him.
Key statement by Olivia here: The way this process began was that one of the architects was friends with the co-manager of our shop, a paid employee by the university and not a student. He then handed off the project to us, as we were willing to build the model and were promised pay for our work. The building process took place during out vacation time, and if it were during school our hours would have been compensated by our shop.
If he didn't know the shop manager was handing this off to you, you have a complicated situation. In that case you need to talk to the manager (first) and maybe the dean (if talking to the manager didn't work) to find out a fair way to compensate you for your time. Did you pay for the materials yourselves or were they from the shop?
These kind of who-owes-what-to-whom problems are very common in architectural practice, where subcontractors build things for the general contractor based on engineering drawings subcontracted by the architect. I don't know what simple legal remedy you could pursue if this is your situation, so you really need to discuss with the shop manager. Taking your shop manager to small claims court might work, but is likely to have a bad impact on your future at the school, obviously.
If the shop manager isn't open to reasonable discussion, you might need to bring the matter to the dean. I suspect the shop manager would be in violation of some school policy if he insisted on not paying you for this. Most colleges will have a student handbook that describes this clearly. Here is Yale's, which I'm posting just because it's easy to access online and clearly states that a student doing non-acadmeic work for faculty must be paid fairly. Your school probably has similar stipulations.
2nd part of my response: If Jeff Spivek knew you were building this model for him, do you have an enforceable contract?
This actually is a really interesting question, so I decided to spend some time looking into it (actually less time than it took to read the rest of this thread!) Turns out, both Miles and Richard are partly correct on this, and the answer will vary depending what state you are in. Let's assume California, since that's where Jeff Spivek's office is located.
All US states (and most English-language countries) observe some form of the Statute of Frauds, which requires certain types of contracts to be made in writing, or they aren't legally enforceable. Meaning unwritten contracts cannot be enforced by any court. But there are limits and exceptions on this, which is important!
A good summary of California's Statute of Frauds here. The statute specifies exactly what kinds of contracts must be written to be enforceable - most of these deal with sale of real estate and settling of debts. Relevant to your situation are 2 key items:
1- Commercial transactions for the sale of good (your model) require written evidence of a contract if the total value of the goods is over $500. The whole agreement need not be written, but the outline of what goods will be provided and the price are necessary. Bad news for you...
2- But there are exceptions, and you seem to qualify for 3 of them, meaning you shouldn't need a written contract for this to be enforcable. #4 best describes your situation. Copied from the link above:
If custom goods were manufactured for a specific order, the agreement would be enforceable even if the order was made on oral terms.
When there exists a written confirmation of agreement between two merchants, i.e. an invoice identifying the goods, quantity, and price of an order
If the party being charged admits there was a valid oral agreement, the agreement can still be enforceable.
Partial Performance—If one party has already carried out a significant portion of their duties as outlined by an oral agreement before the other party challenges the validity of the oral agreement, they can still be entitled to the amount they are due for that portion of the goods.
So if you and Jeff Spivek had discussed your work on this model and if he agreed to have you work on this before later changing his mind, you absolutely have an enforceable contract. With the testimony of the shop manager and the invoice you prepared -plus the incomplete model itself- there should be enough evidence to persuade a judge in small claims court.
California's procedure for this is pretty straightforward and won't cost you much money (it looks like $50 for your situation) though it will require you, Spivek, and any witness (the shop manager) to appear in person in court somewhere in the future.
But the required first step, as others have suggested, is to ask for payment. The CA court's website actually has a program to generate a suitable letter demanding payment, and the court will require a copy of this letter and proof you sent it before considering your case.
This topic was exhausted long ago. Lionel Hutz has clearly demonstrated his complete lack of knowledge and experience with a preponderance of legalese bullshit gleaned from google searches without any understanding of practical reality.
I'm more interested in the idea of which cartoon characters would be used to represent specific Archinect regulars.
I'll readily change my avatar if someone comes up with a good one for me.
What is crucial for a verbal agreement is that the plaintiff (students) still needs to prove there was an agreement to the defendent ( Is it going to be the shop co-manager or Jeff Svitas? )
What midlander just point out is an example of privity of contract matter. If you sue the wrong guy placing him or her as the defendent.
Although legally from a black and white text of law, a verbal contract is valid. I agree with that. Proving the contractual agreement i going to be important and making sure you go after the right person.
Mies, that is crucial. The objects may be able to prove there was a contractual agreeent. THe question is proving the contractual relationship with the parties of the lawsuit (in small caims in this case). If you choose the wrong defendent then you are screwed.
Balkins is still going...starting to sound like the bob loblaw law blog.
He already has a professor frink and a lionel hutz under his belt...
No way Miles is gil gunderson...I will have to think about that one.
Oct 10, 14 11:13 am ·
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However, the bright side is, you would know the defendent you need to sue and re-initiate the lawsuit with te correct party as the defendent and with the evidence you brought forth and the court proceeding of the previous suit (if it is recorded). If the court does not record the proceeding, it might not be as helpful but possibly helpful enough. The problem is you would have been spending more time and more court costs to proceed.
It's better to have the right party be the one. I recommend 1) Try to obtain collection of the fee from the right party. If that fails - 2) Go to small claims against the correct party. If you still possess the model or photos of it and you have the drawings or photos of it in your possession prior to handing it over to Jeff Svitas.
It isn't necessarily whether or not there is an verbal agreement. What needs to be proven is if the verbl agreement is with the plaintiff and the defendent. Who is the defendent is important.
What midlander alluded to, maybe something where you may need to place BOTH Jeff and the co-manager as co-defendents. Depending how you set up the claim and all in the paperwork, it may potentially have its own problems.
There is a possible case but you need some supporting evidence.
Lawyers have often done this in a ordinary civil court.
One or both of the defendents would be responsible to paying if Plaintiffs prove their case.
Non-Payment for Model
Miles Jaffe,
I am not answering those questions. My cases are few and far in between due to very thorough matters which includes a written agreement and the goal is not to settle out of court where possible.
If you are sued rampantly in court, it is not a good thing. What I am getting at is simple, preponderance of fact. If defendent denies any contractual agreement, then the lack of tangible evidence of contract would place the evidence on the side of the defendent. Plaintiff ALWAYS is the one that begins the case with the Burden of Proof and must promptly shift the burden of proof onto the defendent. If that can not be done, the plaintiff has failed the preponderance of fact and the defendent's claim shall be deemed true. Only when the plaintiff has proven they had an agreement.
Who's to say the plaintiffs just made up the case?
Does the plaintiffs (model makers) have the model or a photo of it? Yes or No. Even if they did have the model, who is to say there was an agreement. If there was an agreement... this can still be disputed and holes picked such as whether or not the defendent agreed to pay. That is the part that still ultimately matters.
Are we sure that the defendent (Jeff Svitak) want to pay for models made or simply wanted some model makers to make the model. What exactly was said and agreed on, word for word. That is what needs to be proven otherwise, there is still a problem because it is each part of the agreement that must be confirmed.
Even if there was an agreement by the defendent that there was an agreement, there can still be contesting of what was agreed on and not agreed on. That is an ugly situation.
I wouldn't waste my time on suing unless I was able to prove my case. I don't face cases regarding verbal contracts like this because I don't use verbal contracts. I wouldn't have to prove the existance of my contract in order to get my claim for relief.
I wouldn't have issues where the defendent may deny having a contract because it would be written and signed in duplicate or triplicate form. Holy Moly you may say but damn right.
There is a reason why I do. A verbal contract can be entirely fictitious and never existed and therefore just hearsay or a bad confusion. Therefore, a defendent may raise a case of confused students with a dillusion which is all just to cast doubt on the plaintiff.
It becomes a lot like a political debate between two political candidates.
Don't the students have better things to do like move on to other projects and their professional lives.
If they did a written contract, one of two things would have happened from the beginning:
1) A signed agreement confirming all parties to contract has read and understood the agreement.
or
2) No contract would have been made and the model would never have been made and therefore the investmen would not have happened and save the heartache of trying to collect the $2000.
I have never seen someone write so much while saying so little. Seriously, this is bonkers: A verbal contract can be entirely fictitious and never existed and therefore just hearsay or a bad confusion. Therefore, a defendent may raise a case of confused students with a dillusion which is all just to cast doubt on the plaintiff.
Please, folks, do not listen to this man.
A written contract or signed invoice would have been great, I don't think anyone is arguing that. They do, however, have enough to go to small claims. The model is proof of an agreement. The shop co-manager knew of the agreement. No judge is going to believe that two students undertook to build a model of an "architect's" un-built building, with drawings they somehow had access to, on their own time, over a break, at cost (in materials) to themselves, and then draft an invoice for it. At the very least they would recoup some of their costs. This would not be a long and protracted legal battle.
+1 @cocococo
Richard, we all get it, writing things down trumps verbal. Judges in our state got so tired of architects arguing over verbal agreements that it is now illegal to do architectural services without a written contract – I have always been big on written contracts, even do something I call “Memo of Understanding” on tiny things – but – lawyers wipe there asses with paper contracts and can argue over the meaning of the word “is”. Written is good, better but no guarantee.
Now – before we go any further I think its past time – where is the picture of this model we are all waxed up about? Its time – show me the 3 legged chair.
this use of unnecessary capital letters is bourgeoisie and insulting to the proletariat that keeps your economy moving. no more capital letters. especially no more entire words written in capital letter unless you're trying to stamp your foot over the working class.
How many times have you been to small claims court? How many times have you litigated over fees?
I am not answering those questions. My cases are few and far in between due to very thorough matters which includes a written agreement and the goal is not to settle out of court where possible.
Richard, you are quite simply full of shit. You won't answer the question, but you then imply you have been in court, and that you prefer NOT to settle put of court. LOL!
I've been in protracted litigation and I've been in small claims court. The former is something you want to avoid at all costs while the latter is as close to justice as you can get in this country without the expense of lawyers over a duration measured in years (or more) and all the games played in that arena (you have no idea, or to be more precise less than no idea).
Few and far between in this case means never. The more you go on and on and on the more blatantly obvious this becomes. Among the more conspicuous aspects of your bullshit is the simple fact that written contracts are only worth as much as you can spend to try to enforce them, and in this arena the clients most often have a hefty weight advantage over the architect. But as you've never been there I don't expect you to have even a cursory understanding of how such things really work. For your own sake you should put a cork in it and move on.
Jaffe's First Law The value of a service is inversely proportional to its degree of completion.
Jaffe's Second Law If you need a lawyer it's already too late.
cocococo,
Have you ever heard of people have came to courts claiming a verbal agreement exist but there never was. In other words, they lied or they sorely misunderstood and thought there was an agreement.
So such "verbal agreements" can be entirely fictitious.
There has to be an agreement. An agreement require parties on each side of the contract to agree to the terms. The question is there a contractual agreement BETWEEN Olivia8880/BrandonWarner and Jeff Svitak. It doesn't matter if there was an agreement between Jeff and the Co-Manager. What matters is did Olivia and Brandon have an agreement with Jeff.
Even if there was a verbal agreement. The question is between which parties is the agreement with. Jeff came to the co-manager. The co-manager came with the project to the students. It's potentially a privity of contract matter.
The question is, who agreed to pay. But for Olivia & Brandon to seek financial relief (their $2000) they have to prove they have a verbal agreement with the defendent Jeff Svitak. The contract with the co-manager is not necessarily a contract between them and Jeff. The question lies in how the arrangement is understood by all parties.
As to who is responsible for paying? Did Jeff agree to pay or did the shop co-manager?
Take this for example: (Text book example from the CCB's Oregon Contractors Reference Manual)
"An owner contracts with a general contractor to build an addition to a house, including installation of electrical wiring. Instead of performing this work directly, the general contractor contracts with a subcontractor to perform the electrical work. The electrician is a subcontractor of the general contractor.
The owner and the general contractor have signed one contract, and are in privity of contract. The electrician and general contractor are parties to a separate contract for the electrical work and are in privity of contract with each other. Since the owner and the electrician have not signed the same contract, the electrician is not in privity of contract with the property owner."
This case can very well be similar.
Hypothetically for example:
"Jeff contracts the University craft shop co-manager ( "general or prime contractor") and has formed an agreement to have a model built and are in privity of contract. Instead of physically doing the model himself/herself, the co-manager sub-contracts the model building to the two students Brandon & Olivia. Even though the duties of the contract to be performed are the same, the agreement of contract matters. The student's agreement in this hypothetical example is with the co-manager. Even if Jeff was present at the time of the contract, the contract between the students and shop co-manager is a separate contract agreement to that of the prior agreement between Jeff and the craft shop."
If this is the case, then Jeff may not actually be a party to the contract agreement. There is two seperate agreements. On previous existing agreement between Jeff and the craft shop co-manager. That maybe how Jeff understands the arrangement. Since his agreement with the co-manager may have been that he wouldn't be paying for anything or otherwise not as much and feel he has no contractual obligation to pay the students.
Who explicitly agreed to pay for the model and to whom was the payment agreement to be paid to.
Even if an agreement can be proven to exist. The matter of proof is not just that, it is who is the contract between. Jeff may have been present to explain the conditions of what he wants of the model which he had with is contract agreement with the shop and agreed to relay that to the subcontractors. (ie. the students) This should not be construed to be a contract between Jeff and the students but between the Students and the primary contractor (the school/craft shop co-manager or whoever this began with).
The burden of proof still is with the plaintiff (model making subcontractors - ie. the students) and the defendent (Jeff Svitak).
That can be a tricky situation. The hard part is understanding such a verbal agreement is really what the contractual relationship is. Especially a poorly executed one at that.
We got only the student's perspective. We don't have all parties in this cluster f--- arrangement.
Jaffe's
I preper to resolve disputes before going to court. Since, it is a matter of weighing the benefit of going to court. The bottom line is do I want to be spending a day in court and weeks preparing for one and then weeks trying to collect after court or I can be investing my time on going after new projects and getting paid.
Why throw more time and money if you have very little chance of getting anything in the end.
Move on to the next project and learn how to build a stronger and better contract agreement with proof that would disuade persuing lawsuits when the obligation to pay is clear.
I would pursue small claims if I have a written, signed and dated contract, photos of the work if not the work itself (instruments of my service and all) and have a clear argument prepared.
This situation is messy because they don't have a clear agreement. A written contract would be clear about who are the parties, what the contract is, what is pay.
Basic parts o a contract:
- parties with legal capacity
- The Offer
- Acceptance
- Valid Legal Purpose
- Consideration (ie. relates to the Offer. It is remuneration and relates to the price and what is promised in terms of payment method & schedule and so forth... in other word the agreement or promise to compensate for doing said offer in the contract and manner in how that would be rendered.)
how much does a small claim cost, $50?
We aren't taking about thousands of dollars in court costs
Sure, it doesn't cost money but your time is money when you aren't moving forward with other projects and that is where you lose money potential.
Lets say one was an employee at a place as well. They have to go to court, they miss a day's work which means they lose $80 on top of that if not their job because they didn't show up to work. Unlike jury duty, going to court when you are either the plaintiff or defendent does not protect you from one's employment being terminated. It happens. A student often has some part-time job which even a small amount of money is big and significant.
It isn't much in court costs but small claims cost varies from one place to another.
In Oregon awards up to $10,000 plus court costs. If this was in Oregon, this case would apply. If it is just this kind of amount, I would pursue small claims. Not an issue. However, like any court, I would have the facts to back and support my case. This is why I would use a written contract even for small stuff like this. Okay. Otherwise, I'm trying to prove something intangible. If I were to use oral agreement, it would be recorded.
NYS small claims cost $15 and takes a few minutes to file. The act of filing is more than often enough to get someone to pay up for the very reasons you use to argue against filing: time, expense, inconvenience, etc., especially when they know they are in the wrong. Lots of people try to get away with shit like this because they think they can. And they will if you let them.
Verbal contracts are as valid as written ones. Look it up and do some research before spouting off like some law school professor. You're literally burying yourself with the repetition of ignorance. The more you blather on about what you don't know about ... oh, never mind.
Miles,
In ALL courts, a contract must be proven to exist in order for any reward of unpaid remuneration. A contract between plaintiff and defendent must be proven because there must be a CONTRACTUAL RELATIONSHIP between the plaintiff and defendent. This refers back to the Privity of Contract.
Contract law 101 !!!!
The burden of proof (the legal term applies to civil cases) is with the Plaintiff.
Verbal is valid as any if you can bring that agreement to court. Is there a recording of the agreement made?
Put yourself in their position usine the given facts provided. Where is the proof the agreement exists between Plaintiff and Defendent (in this case assuming the targer defendent is Jeff Svitas).
I've seen claims of verbal agreements disregarded and deemed hearsay because of the lack of proof by the plaintiff because they lack convincing proof.
Just saying there was an agreement is not enough. That's just their words vs. the othet. Unless the defendent confirms an agreement was made and the terms of the agreement, you got an endless ping pong of who's word to believe.
Considering that Jeff Svitak is probably more experienced with courts than the students, he would probably be more convincing because he can compose himself unless he is a real idiot. Composure in the court room and air of confidence is what would be the pursuation factor.
Do we know who the agreement is between, actually?
You have to bring your evidence to the court room.
There is nothing indicated like an email or text message by Jeff referencing a verbal agreement. If you have proof then you are one step of the way. What is still needs to be proved is if there is an contract agreement between Brandon/Olivia and Jeff Svitak. There has to be that part proven. Not that there was a verbal contract between Olivia/Brandon and the craft shop co-manager and that Jeff was a witness to that contract while his contract is between the co-manager and him. Refer back to Privity of Contract. Thinkin from the Owner<->Prime contractor (GC) and Prime-contractor<->Sub-contractor contracts and that they are two contracts or two separate verbal contracts.
Who do you sue?
When you get down to the issue, on the strict letter of law, I would agree that verbal contracts are valid but the problems is proving one exist and to do so, you need the supporting evidence. Proving anything has to have supporting evidence. It is not possible in the laws of physics to prove a unrecorded verbal agreement unless you have supporting witnesses, any evidence or acknowledgement by the defendent that a verbal contract exist such as email, text message or confirmation in the court by the defendent. It isn't as good as a written contract unless it is recorded. It makes explicitly clear what the agreement was (as clear or muddy as it may be).
You can't possibly believe a verbal agreement is better than a written agreement and a verbal agreement is seldom coherent except on the most simplest of contracts/projects.
Without a recording or a witness that can recite nearly word for word the verbal agreement, you need to rely on the defendent to essentially prove your verbal agreement exist.
That's a lot of conjecture on a situation that would be sorted out by any judge in less time than it takes to read and understand your scrawl. This is what the process is for.
That marks the end of my input on this; it's like arguing with a post (column?) at this point.. I hope the students aren't discouraged from taking any option available to them if they'd like to collect.
^Richard, since there is a built model (I hope), that should be enough evidence that some sort of agreement existed. The only thing unknown is the agreed amount of compensation.
The question then is, who currently possesses the model? If they have the model, that is better than they would be if the defendent has the model because if he does, that model can be destroyed and unrecoverable and then he could deny having the model unless there is third party witness to him taking the model and so forth.
There is several true unknowns unless proven.
1) Is there an agreement between Jeff and Olivia/Brandon
2) Is there an agreement to pay.
3) Is the agreement between Olivia/Brandon and the campus craft shop co-manager even through the craft shop manger had some degree of an agreement with Jeff prior to it being brought to Oliva/Brandon.
Was there an agreement to pay at time contract was made and with whom? Who is the party agreeing to pay?
There is holes for sure and that is crucial.
Even better than a written contract in this instance would have been for the students to require a 25 percent payment up front and (for a six week project) an additional 25 percent payment every two weeks. The client could stop by every two weeks to check on the project and drop off the check to continue the work.
^ From someone who's never been involved in a collection. LOL
I have really enjoyed seeing this discussion derail from the actual reality of collecting fees. It has become apparent who has and who has not had experience with such situations.
and who has never found themselves...ever...in a court of law, participating or spectating.
I would recommend that one take a day to sit through a small claims court session and see how the process works...it can be quite illuminating (nudge nudge Mr. Balkins)
All this reminds me of a story about Morris Lapidus, a 2x4, and an owner in Miami.
subgenius, I'd like to hear that story.
Watch People's Court, SneakyPete. It's basically a small claims. So is Judge Judy. It's an arbitration proceeding more or less. Bottom line: Verbal agreements are problematic for the very reason it is INTANGIBLE and it is one guys word vs. the other. Is there ever such an agreement ever made. EVERY STATUTORY LAW governing civil law proceedings in EVERY SINGLE STATE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE MUNICIPAL COURT places the Burden of Proof on the Plaintiff UNLESS the Plaintiff can shift the burden of proof by making the case a prima facie case.
WHAT DO YOU NEED TO MAKE A CASE A PRIMA FACIE CASE ?
Our judicial system always by default places the burden of proof on the plaintiff as they also do on the prosecutor. It is the statutory code of law of this country since the beginning of the United States.
This is a contractual payment dispute. There has to be a contract. If the defendent denies a contract agreement was ever made then all the defendent has to do is deny an agreement was made. Sure, you can prove there was an agreement but with WHO is the problem. Is their contract with Jeff Svitas or is it will the co-manager of the campus craft workshop?
Who agreed to pay?
Can you prove the agreement to pay?
With a written, signed and dated agreement, there would not be these questions as it would be already answered through tangible record.
^ From a person who gets their legal knowledge from watching daytime tv.
For many small jobs a written contract isn't worth the expense, complexity and time involved in review, negotiation, legal review, etc. Why don't you ask judge Judy about that? I think most of her cases on based on verbal agreements.
The number of people who think they are entitled to give legal advice is akin to the number of people that think they are capable of giving architecture advice.
Richard has proven himself to be that annoying in-law who watches way too much DIY channel and will one day fuck up their own house but for now is content to pick at others with advice based on a questionable breadth of experience.
I bet he even says occasionally "I could have been an attorney but I never had the _____ skills" insert, lawyer equivalent of math, drawing, or whatever small aspect of the profession you focus on that allows you to believe the rest of it would have been so easy.
miles, pretty sure we say 'nancy grace' instead of judge judy now. how passe.
Miles how hard is it to even have the most simple of written contract:
You can even delete Warranty terms and the general terms lines and replace with Print name line, Signature line, date line for buyer and Model Maker (change service provider to fit your better. How hard is it to do that.
Keeping to two to three short to medium length sentences. Use 'shall' to denote mandatory requirements. No lawyer is needed. Make duplicate or triplicate copies as needed. For the model building the contract can be VERY simple like this. For building design contracts or architectural services contracts, it would be more sophisticated.
The template above could just about be downloaded and used with minimal effort of change.
Richard Balkins, you are not an attorney, you are not even an architect, but you could be a pretty good lionel hutz:
Richard... Tons of evidence to support there was a agreement. They probably have the drawings, had meetings, and the guy even reviewed the work. If they made it up, why have all that? Judges aren't stupid. So, establishing there was a relationship there isn't rocket science. Then there is the model itself... the thing that client wasn't thrilled with.
Verbal contracts are quite enforceable. I've done litigation cases where there weren't any contracts at all on rather large projects; handshake deals aren't uncommon. It just defaults to the Standard of Care on how these things normally work. Actually, the best written contract has a issue when you verbally or just do things different than the contract; That can be considered amending the contract too. And that happens a ton... like email questions instead of a formal RFI. Think your answer on a email isn't going to be enforceable like the RFI? lol...
I've also done small-claims. I'd guess, worst case, is the judge would say they built it on good faith and if the client told them it was shit at 2/3 done, might award 2/3 the contract. If it really does look like piss poor work, he might side with the defense though. Best case is the judge might look up how much a real model cost that isn't lowballed to students and award them everything, including court fees. Judges are real people too... some are cool, some are pricks, some are bored and just want you out of their room so they can eat lunch.... but as real people, they also loathe people who buck the system (like hiring unskilled) and expect professional results (which they should have hired in the first place).
+++ chigurh
Hutz: Mr. Burns, we've got witnesses, precedent and a paper trail a mile long.
Burns: Yes. But I have ten high-priced lawyers.
Hutz: Ya, ya, yaaa!!! [runs out of office]
Homer: He left his briefcase. Hey, it's full of shredded newspaper.
Lets see the model and end this!
Its a product and everybody knows how those rules work.
Dick Balkins, Esq.
This thread has become as big of a train wreck as the "Boycott Israel" thread.
It is bad form for a lawyer to refer to himself as "Esquire" or "Esq". Might as well append the term "Asshole" instead and be done with it.
mightyaa,
Good points but the proof is who is the client of Olivia/Brandon. The co-manager or Jeff Svitas?
Who is the agreement of contract with? If Olivia/Brandon are subcontracted to the co-manager then Olivia/Brandon can not charge Jeff for the service because Jeff and Olivia/Brandon do not have a contractual relationship with each other. Something called, "Privity of Contract".
Two separate contracts. One between co-manager of workshop and Jeff Svitas. The other between Olivia/Brandon and co-manager of workshop.
If that is the case, why would Jeff pay someone for services he is not in contract with.
There needs to be a contract between Jeff and Oliva/Brandon DIRECTLY on one contractual agreement.
That is what needs to be proven in the preponderance of facts.
Remember, a simple denial is all that the defendent needs to do and raise dispute. Plaintiff has the burdent of proof not the defendent until the plaintiff proves their point.
I'm done debating this. You brought a collegial points and I decided to respond to you but I'm done with debating this with other. I raised the point here. Unrecorded verbal agreements are very difficult to prove unless the defendent is plain out dumb and stupid. If the defendent can lie and lie convincingly and get away with it. It happens every day, just about. Not that I would suggest it but it happens all the time.
Judges maybe smart but they can't always detect b.s. especially if the person knows how to talk sharply and b.s. on the fly like a master and make it believable and plausible. Like a damn good politician or lawyer.
It's kind of exciting to see such a volume of discussion on what should be a fairly dry issue. The overwhelming disagreement about what constitutes an enforceable contract obscures the more important question of who actually expected what here.
@Brandon + Olivia:
Did Jeff Spivek know that you (2 students) were going to be making this model? From Olivia's post, it sounds like he intended to hire the shop manager to build this. That's a pretty important distinction - and I feel he may not be the party at fault if he intended to hire a skilled model-maker but later found out this was being done by students instead. In this case your shop manager is at fault and you're likely to get screwed if you can't work something out with him.
Key statement by Olivia here: The way this process began was that one of the architects was friends with the co-manager of our shop, a paid employee by the university and not a student. He then handed off the project to us, as we were willing to build the model and were promised pay for our work. The building process took place during out vacation time, and if it were during school our hours would have been compensated by our shop.
If he didn't know the shop manager was handing this off to you, you have a complicated situation. In that case you need to talk to the manager (first) and maybe the dean (if talking to the manager didn't work) to find out a fair way to compensate you for your time. Did you pay for the materials yourselves or were they from the shop?
These kind of who-owes-what-to-whom problems are very common in architectural practice, where subcontractors build things for the general contractor based on engineering drawings subcontracted by the architect. I don't know what simple legal remedy you could pursue if this is your situation, so you really need to discuss with the shop manager. Taking your shop manager to small claims court might work, but is likely to have a bad impact on your future at the school, obviously.
If the shop manager isn't open to reasonable discussion, you might need to bring the matter to the dean. I suspect the shop manager would be in violation of some school policy if he insisted on not paying you for this. Most colleges will have a student handbook that describes this clearly. Here is Yale's, which I'm posting just because it's easy to access online and clearly states that a student doing non-acadmeic work for faculty must be paid fairly. Your school probably has similar stipulations.
2nd part of my response: If Jeff Spivek knew you were building this model for him, do you have an enforceable contract?
This actually is a really interesting question, so I decided to spend some time looking into it (actually less time than it took to read the rest of this thread!) Turns out, both Miles and Richard are partly correct on this, and the answer will vary depending what state you are in. Let's assume California, since that's where Jeff Spivek's office is located.
All US states (and most English-language countries) observe some form of the Statute of Frauds, which requires certain types of contracts to be made in writing, or they aren't legally enforceable. Meaning unwritten contracts cannot be enforced by any court. But there are limits and exceptions on this, which is important!
A good summary of California's Statute of Frauds here. The statute specifies exactly what kinds of contracts must be written to be enforceable - most of these deal with sale of real estate and settling of debts. Relevant to your situation are 2 key items:
1- Commercial transactions for the sale of good (your model) require written evidence of a contract if the total value of the goods is over $500. The whole agreement need not be written, but the outline of what goods will be provided and the price are necessary. Bad news for you...
2- But there are exceptions, and you seem to qualify for 3 of them, meaning you shouldn't need a written contract for this to be enforcable. #4 best describes your situation. Copied from the link above:
So if you and Jeff Spivek had discussed your work on this model and if he agreed to have you work on this before later changing his mind, you absolutely have an enforceable contract. With the testimony of the shop manager and the invoice you prepared -plus the incomplete model itself- there should be enough evidence to persuade a judge in small claims court.
California's procedure for this is pretty straightforward and won't cost you much money (it looks like $50 for your situation) though it will require you, Spivek, and any witness (the shop manager) to appear in person in court somewhere in the future.
But the required first step, as others have suggested, is to ask for payment. The CA court's website actually has a program to generate a suitable letter demanding payment, and the court will require a copy of this letter and proof you sent it before considering your case.
Good luck, let us know how this turns out.
I'm seriously on the edge of my seat over this issue. Seeing some pictures would really help!
Seriously, shuellmi and midlander, this has become a really great discussion!
This topic was exhausted long ago. Lionel Hutz has clearly demonstrated his complete lack of knowledge and experience with a preponderance of legalese bullshit gleaned from google searches without any understanding of practical reality.
I'm more interested in the idea of which cartoon characters would be used to represent specific Archinect regulars.
I'll readily change my avatar if someone comes up with a good one for me.
^
What is crucial for a verbal agreement is that the plaintiff (students) still needs to prove there was an agreement to the defendent ( Is it going to be the shop co-manager or Jeff Svitas? )
What midlander just point out is an example of privity of contract matter. If you sue the wrong guy placing him or her as the defendent.
Although legally from a black and white text of law, a verbal contract is valid. I agree with that. Proving the contractual agreement i going to be important and making sure you go after the right person.
Mies, that is crucial. The objects may be able to prove there was a contractual agreeent. THe question is proving the contractual relationship with the parties of the lawsuit (in small caims in this case). If you choose the wrong defendent then you are screwed.
I'always thought of miles as Disco Stu, can't explain why
Balkins is still going...starting to sound like the bob loblaw law blog.
He already has a professor frink and a lionel hutz under his belt...
No way Miles is gil gunderson...I will have to think about that one.
However, the bright side is, you would know the defendent you need to sue and re-initiate the lawsuit with te correct party as the defendent and with the evidence you brought forth and the court proceeding of the previous suit (if it is recorded). If the court does not record the proceeding, it might not be as helpful but possibly helpful enough. The problem is you would have been spending more time and more court costs to proceed.
It's better to have the right party be the one. I recommend 1) Try to obtain collection of the fee from the right party. If that fails - 2) Go to small claims against the correct party. If you still possess the model or photos of it and you have the drawings or photos of it in your possession prior to handing it over to Jeff Svitas.
It isn't necessarily whether or not there is an verbal agreement. What needs to be proven is if the verbl agreement is with the plaintiff and the defendent. Who is the defendent is important.
What midlander alluded to, maybe something where you may need to place BOTH Jeff and the co-manager as co-defendents. Depending how you set up the claim and all in the paperwork, it may potentially have its own problems.
There is a possible case but you need some supporting evidence.
Lawyers have often done this in a ordinary civil court.
One or both of the defendents would be responsible to paying if Plaintiffs prove their case.
Chigurh, you're right, I don't know why I picked Gill... I actually wanted to post Troy.
Ha.
I was going to say if Balkins continues on this trajectory of law excellence and decides to one day run for public office, he could be Mayor Quimby:
I'm done because the above nonsense by chigurh, Non Sequitur, shuellmi, etc. is just noise.
I made my point and if the named clowns don't learn the pitfalls of a verbal agreement then they'll learn the hard way.
Here's a basic read:
http://www.cooneyleesmorgan.co.nz/userfiles/file/MJB/Put%20it%20in%20writing_MJB.pdf
http://www.lawyers.com.au/legal-articles/verbal-agreements-explained/
http://israel-samuels.com/contracts-corner-written-versus-oral-agreements/
Just for the clowns:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-issues-in-oral-contracts.html
^ we make fun because this deserves a little humour and I don't need the lecture in pseudo contract law from the internets.
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