deedee - for the most part, these are very general questions without specific answers. Any firm's needs can vary a great deal over time. What we need at any one point in time depends on the nature of the firm's workload and the collective skills (or lack thereof) of our existing staff.
Hiring on most of those criteria is illegal in the US and most of the world.
Most firms want energetic, driven people who can and will get the job done through difficulties, setbacks, and deadlines. And you should probably have decent technical skills.
Aug 14, 14 10:48 pm ·
·
In general, it is illegal to based hiring decisions on age. However, it still happens. There tends to still be some age based discrimination because that still happens at the insurance level. It costs more to insure someone that is 40 years old than it does for someone that is 18 years old. Some employers still discriminate on these factors.
It is not a justification but a ugly truth of reality that still exists. Other factors that are indirectly linked to age is requirement of technology skills because our youth will be the ones trained on the newest technologies and the more we hing on computer technology.... the more it will be inadvertantly linked to age because once we are working, it is nearly impossible for us to be working and going to college full-time to get proficient with the newest software because it comes out of pocket as we will not get financial aid support because we already have an associates or bachelors or masters degree
However, that will happen. The other thing is "energetic"... older you are the less energetic you will likely be because of natural causes. However, you need to be driven and have great passion for the profession. However, the youth coming into the profession will likely not be disillusioned as much as those who been in the field for a long time and burned out. Then again, why would employers and their colleagues want to surround themselves with more disillusioned people.
However, there are many factors that most employers are going to look at. As for gender, well.... lets be blatantly honest.... we discriminate. Many male employers likes to surround themselves with good looking women with a good smile. This doesn't change regardless of the laws. However, the employer isn't going to say they do or don't. They'll keep their mouth shut.
You still want to be pleasant and not scare people away. Anyway, when it comes to legal factors is do you have the skills that is being sought for in the position by the employer. At the end of the day, it boils down to costs. Employers seeks cost efficiency... especially in rough economic times.
Aug 14, 14 11:24 pm ·
·
The base line: There will be employers that discriminate in borderlining illegal to flat out illegal basis. This happens in all sorts of occupations not just architecture.
However, employment decisions will often be more involved. Employers will be looking at the ability to perform the work efficiently. In other words, the cost benefits of hiring you.
Deedee, I think Richard has it right here. One needs to be “employable”. I have encountered many who were not. It’s a combination of 1 Part Talent + 1 Part Marketability + 1 Part Compatibility. One needs to have all three today, there are no more Mail Rooms for the disenfranchised. My partner brought his son in to work with us and all he had was talent, a lot of talent, but his work meandered and he was completely socialapathic. Didn’t have the heart to let him go so he stayed for some time. I finally had to get him out of there and did a sit-down with his father there for support. I was very soft and gentle but when I said the words “Today is your last day” he leaped up and blistered me with every name you can image and took his chair and threw it across the conference table at me. That was 15 years ago and he’s still at home unemployed.
Employers today are scared out of their minds about this stuff; we called it “Postal”. Today I honestly don’t know how anyone can get a job with all the multiple and group interviews and psychological testing being applied. More time is spent on who you are than what you are.
Richard and I love “ugly truths”, age, gender and race are continuing factors, don’t kid yourself.
I've never been on the hiring side but I got out of school at the peak (or end) of the market in 08. At the time architect offices were still hiring like mad. I did a lot of interviews (to the tune of about 20) And got an offer from almost everyone. I had a few things that set me apart but it seems like a lot of architects are odd balls, little antisocial, dress a little weird, uncomfortable with confrontation (good and bad), and nervous about themselves and their work (at the recent graduate level). If you have this the owner has to decide if they need someone who they can't send out to meet with clients, can't send out in the field for construction oversight (because no contractor is going to respect an weird antisocial odd ball). Take some speech classes maybe some communications classes and look like the professional you are. If your in the interview they are interested and its yours to lose.
New guys/gals out of school are dangerous though and can set a project back quick if they get in and start making messes. The sad truth for recent grads is as long as their are experienced guys willing to work for the same salary on the market you have little chance unless you are exceptional.
Whoa chigurh! With all due respect, that’s not true at all today. On the contrary, employers today look for, unfortunately in my veteran eyes, the meek and compliant types that don’t rock-the-boat. I was not a “Bad Ass MF” coming up but I was a “Ball-Breaker”. I think there is a place for this in PM, doing CM work I met some real Ball-Breaker architects along the way and man did they set-the-tone. I think you are right at this level; this profession needs more Ball-Breakers to deal with contractors during the construction phase, but not in the office environment.
Deedee, I wanted to respond to your words “cheap” mentioned twice in your opening post. I’ve heard this often on the Forum and as a 40 year employer I want to refute. There are variances across the board among firms but when hiring I guess it’s just a matter of not wanting to overpay or push the envelope on salary to keep ones firm in line with the competition and market. I’ve talked with associates on occasion over the years and have never heard an utterance of this practice. A firm has a body of employees at many levels and you try to plug someone in at a commensurate salary. Word can get out and you can’t have “Johnny” marching in demanding equality.
it is nearly impossible for us to be working and going to college full-time to get proficient with the newest software because it comes out of pocket as we will not get financial aid support because we already have an associates or bachelors or masters degree.to aquire M.arch
I worked full time as a Video game 3D artist and went to school full time to earn M.arch and learn the latest Software - Revit, Rhino - how? 4hrs asleep at night then I learned Revit and slept a normal 7-8 hrs.
However, that will happen. The other thing is "energetic"... older you are the less energetic you will likely be because of natural causes. However, you need to be driven and have great passion for the profession. However, the youth coming into the profession will likely not be disillusioned as much as those who been in the field for a long time and burned out. Then again, why would employers and their colleagues want to surround themselves with more disillusioned people.
And I am as energetic as those half my age - I am the last one out of the office - and not
disillusioned in spite of 15 months unemployment during the recession.
And I turned 62 and am still working.
the only reason age discrimination exists is the stereotypes of "old, dumb,slow and expensive" - it's only true it we believe it to be - I circumvented it by keeping up with technology and rigorous health habits I started back when I was 28.
architecture isn't anywhere as bad as it is in computer programming - read this
Xenakis, I’m glad you survived, sounds like you had/have a good strategy and its working, but generally many can’t/don’t and the modern workplace has not been kind to most. I’m 64 and was immune because I owned the place but as the workplace transformed with the influx of the young - college educated and computer savvy, I found that workplaces became toxic and people didn’t take prisoners anymore, one bad deed and your out.
At one period, just as AutoCAD was in single-full-stride I found some 50 something’s floating and brought two in to redline and check CD’s. I thought too that it would be good to mix them in for their experience and guidance. Man was I wrong. There was a mini uprising and the young-guns wanted the old guys out or else. Said they talked too much and didn’t need/want to hear their experiences…and other things. I had no choice and let both go over a period, it was heart wrenching and one wept with the news. I’m embarrassed to say that I never hired that high again.
Age, sometimes gender and race are ugly truths, so is sexual orientation. I’ve said before that it seems today that what matters most is who-you-are not what-you-are. They can create all the nondiscrimination laws they want but not liking somebody isn’t illegal.
It sounds like sometimes age is mistaken for indifference/ incompetence. Xenakis is proof that it is not always the case... After all, what employers really want is dedicated, passionate people willing to do what it takes to make it happen, day-in, day-out. If you have become complacent over the past 15-20 years, it is probably going to show in your work and your presentation.
I am in my 20's still, but I have had both great and terrible experiences working with older people, especially in design build. Some are the most brilliant, experienced and effective people you have ever met, while others are just the laziest, most time-wasting people I have ever run into, and it skews like 70% or more towards the latter.
Carerra, it seems like offices used to be slower-paced, can you comment on that? Maybe it is just hard to work in this always-on overstimulated digital environment for those who didn't grow up with it...
Same thing with these other things - sexual orientation, appearance, race, etc... Employers want people who are good workers, good designer, and anything that detracts from that image, or supersedes it, is probably dangerous to your career.
Basically you should have no personality other than super-excited, passionate pumped-to-be-here and designing buildings for you, boss.
Archanonymous, jla-x offers the correct operative word “obedient”.
I did not see offices turn into “always-on over stimulated digital environment(s)”. In fact somewhat the contrary. When I started we sat at stools and high tables and many stood up half the day. Today the process is more sedentary. I had one guy keep falling asleep. I also don’t feel that digital drawing is any more stimulating than hand drawing. Drawing is decision-making and that has not changed, additionally, in the initial creation of a drawing, digital drawing isn’t any faster than hand drawing, speed comes from experience in decision-making.
Offices still contain all kinds of different people it’s just that these new HR sieves that we are putting people through yield obedient drones.
I have been working for two years at a corporate-sized architecture firm since graduating with my M.ARCH and I seem to be doing pretty well. I have been working closely with my design principal, also CEO of the company since the 80's, an opportunity most at my level do not get. I try to be the apprentice 75% of the time and the partner 25% of the time. In other words, i try to focus most of my time on creating good, solid work per my principal's direction, and the rest of the time talking about design and process with him and other members of the team. I've been invited to client meetings and client dinners/ drinks which you should never turn down! I have found that my ability to communicate effectively about design and my willingness to share new ideas has been welcomed and encouraged. They may not always be good ideas, or the right ones, but I think my principal appreciates the effort.
Also, charm and wit go a long way, especially in a boy's club ;)
They want someone who is minimally qualified if not totally qualified. This means you need to know the software they use and the types of projects they work on. and have just the right amount of experience but not too much.
You need to be easy to employ, placing you on the payroll has to be simple (citizen vers work visas) you have to be competent in the languages your office is doing business in.
You need to be a decent person to work with (sometimes looks play a part here)
When we discuss candidates at office meeting the ones dismissed outright are the ones whose personality rubs someone the wrong way. Polite and attentive, with followup and sincere interest in the position being offered seem to be the main drivers of who gets a chance or not. Also it helps if someone inside the firm knows you and will say good things about you.
Do, look people in they eye
Do not ignore people at a wedding reception who your mutual friend, the Bride, placed you at a table with so you may have a chance to interact with before your interview. A principal mentioned that these people who we were interested in recruiting for a Bim manager position at the associate principle level was quite put off when the "kids" never put down their smart phones and make eye contact much less polite conversation to the person they had, perhaps unknowingly sent their resume to a week earlier. Always be social and polite, potential employers in a small industry such as ours can be quite crafty in how they learn about you.
I’d like to add something to Peter’s final comment. This may not apply to DeeDee but for others - clean-up your personal portrait pictures on here and on FaceBook, some may think that they are being whimsical or funny but it just isn’t and be very mindful of what you write in public media, here included. Employers troll and worse some young twit with nothing to do that didn’t like your haircut at the group interview will search you out to drop a black-ball in the slot.
What do employers want?
What do you want in a job applicant? Would you hire someone who is over 40? 50?
What are you looking for? Young and cheap? Experienced and cheap?
Money no object? Ivy League School? Man,? Woman?
Any thoughts?
deedee - for the most part, these are very general questions without specific answers. Any firm's needs can vary a great deal over time. What we need at any one point in time depends on the nature of the firm's workload and the collective skills (or lack thereof) of our existing staff.
Hiring on most of those criteria is illegal in the US and most of the world.
Most firms want energetic, driven people who can and will get the job done through difficulties, setbacks, and deadlines. And you should probably have decent technical skills.
In general, it is illegal to based hiring decisions on age. However, it still happens. There tends to still be some age based discrimination because that still happens at the insurance level. It costs more to insure someone that is 40 years old than it does for someone that is 18 years old. Some employers still discriminate on these factors.
It is not a justification but a ugly truth of reality that still exists. Other factors that are indirectly linked to age is requirement of technology skills because our youth will be the ones trained on the newest technologies and the more we hing on computer technology.... the more it will be inadvertantly linked to age because once we are working, it is nearly impossible for us to be working and going to college full-time to get proficient with the newest software because it comes out of pocket as we will not get financial aid support because we already have an associates or bachelors or masters degree
However, that will happen. The other thing is "energetic"... older you are the less energetic you will likely be because of natural causes. However, you need to be driven and have great passion for the profession. However, the youth coming into the profession will likely not be disillusioned as much as those who been in the field for a long time and burned out. Then again, why would employers and their colleagues want to surround themselves with more disillusioned people.
However, there are many factors that most employers are going to look at. As for gender, well.... lets be blatantly honest.... we discriminate. Many male employers likes to surround themselves with good looking women with a good smile. This doesn't change regardless of the laws. However, the employer isn't going to say they do or don't. They'll keep their mouth shut.
You still want to be pleasant and not scare people away. Anyway, when it comes to legal factors is do you have the skills that is being sought for in the position by the employer. At the end of the day, it boils down to costs. Employers seeks cost efficiency... especially in rough economic times.
The base line: There will be employers that discriminate in borderlining illegal to flat out illegal basis. This happens in all sorts of occupations not just architecture.
However, employment decisions will often be more involved. Employers will be looking at the ability to perform the work efficiently. In other words, the cost benefits of hiring you.
Employers don't want lazy workers.
The ideal candidate will be 25 years old with 30 years experience who wants to work for next to nothing.. Simple.
... and pretty, too.
Deedee, I think Richard has it right here. One needs to be “employable”. I have encountered many who were not. It’s a combination of 1 Part Talent + 1 Part Marketability + 1 Part Compatibility. One needs to have all three today, there are no more Mail Rooms for the disenfranchised. My partner brought his son in to work with us and all he had was talent, a lot of talent, but his work meandered and he was completely socialapathic. Didn’t have the heart to let him go so he stayed for some time. I finally had to get him out of there and did a sit-down with his father there for support. I was very soft and gentle but when I said the words “Today is your last day” he leaped up and blistered me with every name you can image and took his chair and threw it across the conference table at me. That was 15 years ago and he’s still at home unemployed.
Employers today are scared out of their minds about this stuff; we called it “Postal”. Today I honestly don’t know how anyone can get a job with all the multiple and group interviews and psychological testing being applied. More time is spent on who you are than what you are.
Richard and I love “ugly truths”, age, gender and race are continuing factors, don’t kid yourself.
I've never been on the hiring side but I got out of school at the peak (or end) of the market in 08. At the time architect offices were still hiring like mad. I did a lot of interviews (to the tune of about 20) And got an offer from almost everyone. I had a few things that set me apart but it seems like a lot of architects are odd balls, little antisocial, dress a little weird, uncomfortable with confrontation (good and bad), and nervous about themselves and their work (at the recent graduate level). If you have this the owner has to decide if they need someone who they can't send out to meet with clients, can't send out in the field for construction oversight (because no contractor is going to respect an weird antisocial odd ball). Take some speech classes maybe some communications classes and look like the professional you are. If your in the interview they are interested and its yours to lose.
New guys/gals out of school are dangerous though and can set a project back quick if they get in and start making messes. The sad truth for recent grads is as long as their are experienced guys willing to work for the same salary on the market you have little chance unless you are exceptional.
employers want a bad ass mother f-er that don't take no shit from nobody
Whoa chigurh! With all due respect, that’s not true at all today. On the contrary, employers today look for, unfortunately in my veteran eyes, the meek and compliant types that don’t rock-the-boat. I was not a “Bad Ass MF” coming up but I was a “Ball-Breaker”. I think there is a place for this in PM, doing CM work I met some real Ball-Breaker architects along the way and man did they set-the-tone. I think you are right at this level; this profession needs more Ball-Breakers to deal with contractors during the construction phase, but not in the office environment.
Deedee, I wanted to respond to your words “cheap” mentioned twice in your opening post. I’ve heard this often on the Forum and as a 40 year employer I want to refute. There are variances across the board among firms but when hiring I guess it’s just a matter of not wanting to overpay or push the envelope on salary to keep ones firm in line with the competition and market. I’ve talked with associates on occasion over the years and have never heard an utterance of this practice. A firm has a body of employees at many levels and you try to plug someone in at a commensurate salary. Word can get out and you can’t have “Johnny” marching in demanding equality.
it is nearly impossible for us to be working and going to college full-time to get proficient with the newest software because it comes out of pocket as we will not get financial aid support because we already have an associates or bachelors or masters degree.to aquire M.arch
I worked full time as a Video game 3D artist and went to school full time to earn M.arch and learn the latest Software - Revit, Rhino - how? 4hrs asleep at night then I learned Revit and slept a normal 7-8 hrs.
However, that will happen. The other thing is "energetic"... older you are the less energetic you will likely be because of natural causes. However, you need to be driven and have great passion for the profession. However, the youth coming into the profession will likely not be disillusioned as much as those who been in the field for a long time and burned out. Then again, why would employers and their colleagues want to surround themselves with more disillusioned people.
And I am as energetic as those half my age - I am the last one out of the office - and not
disillusioned in spite of 15 months unemployment during the recession.
And I turned 62 and am still working.
the only reason age discrimination exists is the stereotypes of "old, dumb,slow and expensive" - it's only true it we believe it to be - I circumvented it by keeping up with technology and rigorous health habits I started back when I was 28.
architecture isn't anywhere as bad as it is in computer programming - read this
http://www.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/silicon-valley-bottom-age-discrimination/Content?oid=3079530
Xenakis, I’m glad you survived, sounds like you had/have a good strategy and its working, but generally many can’t/don’t and the modern workplace has not been kind to most. I’m 64 and was immune because I owned the place but as the workplace transformed with the influx of the young - college educated and computer savvy, I found that workplaces became toxic and people didn’t take prisoners anymore, one bad deed and your out.
At one period, just as AutoCAD was in single-full-stride I found some 50 something’s floating and brought two in to redline and check CD’s. I thought too that it would be good to mix them in for their experience and guidance. Man was I wrong. There was a mini uprising and the young-guns wanted the old guys out or else. Said they talked too much and didn’t need/want to hear their experiences…and other things. I had no choice and let both go over a period, it was heart wrenching and one wept with the news. I’m embarrassed to say that I never hired that high again.
Age, sometimes gender and race are ugly truths, so is sexual orientation. I’ve said before that it seems today that what matters most is who-you-are not what-you-are. They can create all the nondiscrimination laws they want but not liking somebody isn’t illegal.
It sounds like sometimes age is mistaken for indifference/ incompetence. Xenakis is proof that it is not always the case... After all, what employers really want is dedicated, passionate people willing to do what it takes to make it happen, day-in, day-out. If you have become complacent over the past 15-20 years, it is probably going to show in your work and your presentation.
I am in my 20's still, but I have had both great and terrible experiences working with older people, especially in design build. Some are the most brilliant, experienced and effective people you have ever met, while others are just the laziest, most time-wasting people I have ever run into, and it skews like 70% or more towards the latter.
Carerra, it seems like offices used to be slower-paced, can you comment on that? Maybe it is just hard to work in this always-on overstimulated digital environment for those who didn't grow up with it...
Same thing with these other things - sexual orientation, appearance, race, etc... Employers want people who are good workers, good designer, and anything that detracts from that image, or supersedes it, is probably dangerous to your career.
Basically you should have no personality other than super-excited, passionate pumped-to-be-here and designing buildings for you, boss.
Obedient workers.
Archanonymous, jla-x offers the correct operative word “obedient”.
I did not see offices turn into “always-on over stimulated digital environment(s)”. In fact somewhat the contrary. When I started we sat at stools and high tables and many stood up half the day. Today the process is more sedentary. I had one guy keep falling asleep. I also don’t feel that digital drawing is any more stimulating than hand drawing. Drawing is decision-making and that has not changed, additionally, in the initial creation of a drawing, digital drawing isn’t any faster than hand drawing, speed comes from experience in decision-making.
Offices still contain all kinds of different people it’s just that these new HR sieves that we are putting people through yield obedient drones.
I have been working for two years at a corporate-sized architecture firm since graduating with my M.ARCH and I seem to be doing pretty well. I have been working closely with my design principal, also CEO of the company since the 80's, an opportunity most at my level do not get. I try to be the apprentice 75% of the time and the partner 25% of the time. In other words, i try to focus most of my time on creating good, solid work per my principal's direction, and the rest of the time talking about design and process with him and other members of the team. I've been invited to client meetings and client dinners/ drinks which you should never turn down! I have found that my ability to communicate effectively about design and my willingness to share new ideas has been welcomed and encouraged. They may not always be good ideas, or the right ones, but I think my principal appreciates the effort.
Also, charm and wit go a long way, especially in a boy's club ;)
What do employers want...
They want someone who is minimally qualified if not totally qualified. This means you need to know the software they use and the types of projects they work on. and have just the right amount of experience but not too much.
You need to be easy to employ, placing you on the payroll has to be simple (citizen vers work visas) you have to be competent in the languages your office is doing business in.
You need to be a decent person to work with (sometimes looks play a part here)
When we discuss candidates at office meeting the ones dismissed outright are the ones whose personality rubs someone the wrong way. Polite and attentive, with followup and sincere interest in the position being offered seem to be the main drivers of who gets a chance or not. Also it helps if someone inside the firm knows you and will say good things about you.
Do, look people in they eye
Do not ignore people at a wedding reception who your mutual friend, the Bride, placed you at a table with so you may have a chance to interact with before your interview. A principal mentioned that these people who we were interested in recruiting for a Bim manager position at the associate principle level was quite put off when the "kids" never put down their smart phones and make eye contact much less polite conversation to the person they had, perhaps unknowingly sent their resume to a week earlier. Always be social and polite, potential employers in a small industry such as ours can be quite crafty in how they learn about you.
I’d like to add something to Peter’s final comment. This may not apply to DeeDee but for others - clean-up your personal portrait pictures on here and on FaceBook, some may think that they are being whimsical or funny but it just isn’t and be very mindful of what you write in public media, here included. Employers troll and worse some young twit with nothing to do that didn’t like your haircut at the group interview will search you out to drop a black-ball in the slot.
You have to give damn about what you do, day in day out - the problem is when people "retire while on active duty"
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