0+ and organic are representative of a-hole because of whom we are all doomed...
go back to alabama you arrogant insecure bastards

sameolddoctor,

yes, lets resort to infantile schooyard insults....it's too bad that this is the level of debate you're capable of.
passioned debate should be encouraged, and all sides given their 'air', whether agreed to or not, that's what makes this country great.

i wish calling people 'pricks' and 'arrogant insecure bastards' would actually help the world, for then you would be great humanitarians, but if you chose to try to stifle differing opinions with pithy insults
and degredation,
i only pity you.
good luck with that. hope it brings people together.....

thanks

how old are you doc?

o+

i apologize for resorting to names...i regret including it
since you obviously ignored everything else i said...

i think, however, that your level of debate in completely
misreading my first post and then assuming that i am
some sort of ostrich that could stick my head in the sand
and ignore something like the holocaust deserved a response
in kind.....
perhaps i was infantile, but your level of projection onto other
people and your unwillingness to respond to what's actual
said in posts is infuriating.

i don't understand you and you haven't seemed to try
and understand me.

larson,

i really try to understand your points, but for me it seems futile to try and view the current situation through 20th century glasses, which most here seem to have a need for. yes, the end of the 20th century was great, we were all warm in our blankets of oblivion, thinking we were protecting our borders and gathering good intelligence, but guess what, we weren't, and still aren't. i in no way am endorsing the current administration, but i am endorsing the pro-active stance.
in a strange way, the architect is a good metaphor for the situation. the current architect (prob. 99% of them)is rather inert, waiting(rfp, rfq included) for clients and jobs, and only then reacting to situations and programs. a very old world view and method of approach, one that breeds a passivity and lack of control, leaving you to only respond to situations. not good .
the pro-active architect is one who creates his/her own approach and attacks problems and ideas in the purest sense, and creates solutions in the most valuable way. Team X , the situationists and such other 60's radicals started right but conservative architecture stymied their vision.
i guess what i'm asking is , where are the superstudio's of today, not just in architecture, but politics, the environment? team x and superstudio never wrote about their complaints of the day, they wrote of vision......something lacking in the present...something i see in pro-active agendas that can give us hope....the very thing the free world takes for granted....the thing that should be the right of every human on earth.....

0+ -- The "pro-active" agenda that you are supporting is one of destruction, not one of creativity and vision. Grow up, get an education and then try and enter into a discussion about the world.

spaceman,

bachelors, 2 masters, doctorate. and i'm plenty old, kid.
i'm not supporting the terrorists so i'm in fact not supporting destruction.
maybe in your limited circles and short sighted discussions with your childish peers who all believe the same tripe you do, you don't know what reality is anymore, or ever did. a culture of egotistical secularist divisiveness isn't the 'world'. open your eyes, and look past your nose, the world is more than just 'thinking', it's doing, chum. at least for the people who have to sacrifice for our freedoms......
but i'm done posting here. you're not looking to discuss the real issues.....so, at least you can be happy in that you have succussfully tried to stifle dissent with immature banter. how american of you.

o+
i don't believe anyone is trying to stifle your posts...
i don't get where you see that.
however...continuously telling other people that they're short-
sighted pascifists who are asleep and childish and don't see what
you see in the world...i think that actually defines immature banter.

i appreciated the tenor of your last post to me...i need to reread
it cause i don't feel i quite understood what you were trying to
say....

i don't believe anyone has called for pascivity..i think they're
instead calling for rational, controlled and thought out action..
not fighting a war on several fronts...without exit strategies...

you claim that others are calling you names and have debased
the argument however if you reread the majority of your posts
i believe you may see that you are also quite good at name
calling and stereotyping others that disagree with you..

Larson (not to single you out – but you have been very passionate in your posts), if your words and ideas are expressive of short-sighted pacifism then I say call it how you see it but try to find out why you think that way.

Certainly there is no way to bring the extremes together (and o+ is not at all taking an extreme position) that’s impossible and always has been. Interestingly the right wing and left wing have been very successful consolidating their respective views. Those of us who are in the middle and look at issues as complicated and part of a gradated reality are being ignored. The speed with which our thoughts are dismissed is amazing. For instance with the classic and witty rejoinder, “You’re stupid and wrong [now because you live in a red state.]”

I also hear "listen to me" a lot on these political posts. I think what is actually being said is "Agree with me". I do not need to agree with you, I do need to listen to you. However, if the idea is to actually get someone to listen, some skill in communicating is necessary.

I hear what you’re saying about this war in Iraq and your frustrations with W’s unilateral manipulations and lack of diplomacy and have very similar frustrations. I have friends and family over there and my family has been called on to serve the military for generations. My Uncle was a general in Vietnam and was so unsettled by the experience that he took extreme action to deal with the pain and frustration. He has adopted five Cambodian children over the years and has raised them all putting them through college and all five are incredible people and great Americans. They have skeletons in their closets that you could only imagine. Watching their parents raped and murdered in front of their 5 year old eyes as a start. You see there is indeed real evil in this world and however much we ALL want to be able to fix that cleanly it’s just not clean. In my Uncle’s world national culpability meant he needed to take real action.

The problem in my opinion is, some nations made it very difficult for America to build the proper consensus (for obviously selfish economic reasons) and coupled with some very bad intelligence we took action too soon. No one really disputes that Sadam was a bad man and his regime was murderous. Also, no one can really dispute that America has some real culpability in his coming to power to begin with. We have through the generations played some serious games meddling with other nation’s sovereignty. I am also sure that each president and cabinet did what they thought was best for the nation at that time. Mistakes are made. Power is gathered and dispersed. Truth is blurred for expediency. Except for the very few enormously capable people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi, to name two, we are all very fallible. Making decisions based on the information we have at hand with the biases which are natural and human is the best we can hope for usually.

The best Architects that work with me are one’s who are decisive and make good decisions based on the information available. They are also proactive. Understanding where problems have occurred in the past and doing something to fix in advance. They also admit quickly when they fucked-up and take the blame instead of pushing it off on others. None of them are 20.

Most of us level headed fallible people that have served their country and have seen combat are usually doves when it comes to when and where to fight. You see they know what the costs are. Starting with my generation (I’m 39) there has been very little serving of this kind necessary. My father and grandfathers all served and saw action. They want us out of Iraq and all support our president and the men who are currently serving. We also want to know how and when they will come home. Don’t you think pushing to know how and when rather than calling others who don’t agree with you names is better?

With age comes wisdom. I think as we age we have more and more serious issues to deal with in our lives. This exponentially increasing testing of our mettle is the way we as people who care gain wisdom. Remember when you were little and someone called you a name or bullied you or took your toy. That shit was a real problem for you then. Now you’re 80 and you son has just died, you have a great-grandson that has leukemia, you have two grandsons in Iraq (one the father of the girl with leukemia) and your Social Security barely covers your living expenses and some creep has stolen your purse at the grocery store with no one really giving a crap and it’s only Tuesday. That sort of grace under pressure is wisdom beyond my means and bears listening to. You see we are all shaped by our experiences or lack of them. Age is not the only way to gain wisdom. This little girl with leukemia is far more capable dealing with issues of mortality than the average adult. My Cambodian cousins were more adept at survival both physically and emotionally at seven than I am today.

Please next time you ask someone to listen to me, try instead to listen to them.

that was sincere alpha. thanks. your uncle is a grand american. there are great people in this country which i made my home. i came to this country alone, at the age of 19, since than i've met a lot of americans like your family, they are the best, with wisdom unique to americans.
they are trusting and confident about america and are continious link to founders. because of this, they don't elaborate on dirty games and find peace in their family and because of their experience, can deal with life on an individual levels. naturally they are going instinct and replaced by corporate, disfuctional, uneducated, poor, extreme and consuming sub cultures with a large percentege of unknown destiny.
generational change of american society will be 'mind boggling'.

alphanumericcha,

I don't get your point. Your uncle has become a great man, and of course is a good example for not justifying the big mistake that is a war!!!

once again I don't get your point: If you believe in the pacifist ideas of great humans like Ghandi and Luther King, why don't you strongly disapprove the war?... I feel really impotent when I listen thoughts like "some nations made it very difficult for America to build the proper consensus (for obviously selfish economic reasons)"...."We have through the generations played some serious games meddling with other nation’s sovereignty. I am also sure that each president and cabinet did what they thought was best for the nation at that time. Mistakes are made. Power is gathered and dispersed. Truth is blurred for expediency"... and that is the point to me,clearly because of this kind of mistakes we have paid with WTC. The whole world is paying for this kind of "Mistakes" that include the murder of lots of people around the world...violence generates more violence... and why do we have to continue making mistakes that our children will have to pay in the future...
I'm 28 and as you said, the wisdom comes in different ways, not always with years and we all have a lot of examples of that... too many times with age comes a strong structure of narrow ideas... if we have too many problems inside the country, Why on earth do we have to fix problems in other countries ("OIL?? POWER???")...

Re: I understand why you ask for my point. My point is essentially to listen to others. I also understand your frustration about where things have led. Violence is nearly impossible for one to understand when one has no need of it. There are many American’s who, for some trick of time and history, have come to know the violence of war.

Unfortunately for various reasons, sometimes as basic as hopelessness, violence is all some have. For some large groups ignorance blooms such hatred and fear of what may happen to your identity and that can produce violence against those that are different than. Envy is another source for rationalizing violence against other.

And as you say re. so can a need for power create a rational for war. This has certainly been the main reason for an individual leading many people (ea. Dictator) to use violence against others and his own. Historically speaking, with little exception, our nation has led into this national violence which is war, with others freedom and democracy in mind.

I can’t really say whether that is the case in Iraq now. Only time will really tell. I am an optimist and so I say let’s get our sons and daughters home soon and have nothing but hope for the vast majority of the people of Iraq. You know before we started meddling with Sadam and Iran blocking, the people of Iraq were the most progressive and educated in that region. They are a great people who have their own fractured lines to deal with. Hopefully some good will come of this war for their sake. If Iraq can grow to become a free place how powerful a statement to the rest of the world’s violence sharpeners would that be? A place rich with the origins of human civilization, bashed and used by people who suck, becoming a beacon. A pipe dream, but a pleasant sounding one.

Please disagree with me – that’s fine. But do me one favor. Before you do look closely at the history of Iraq and its people and then tell me they are not worth the effort. Tell me that peace in Lebanon and in Israel is not worth the effort. Tell me that terrorists and the nations that harbor them are just really mad at George Bush and if he were gone all would be OK. Tell me that is what history would seem to indicate.

I say we should try and make the best of it and being derisive is not the way forward. If we educated hard working types can’t get that done then god help us

Now I’m going to watch sponge bob square pants with my non-violent seven year old son who last month, at church, punched a boy square in the side of the head whilst calling him a son of a bitch because the boy grabbed him on a small patch of sunburn (my fault - missed a spot with the sun block). The son of a bitch exclamation was also my fault. Got that from me yelling at some s.o.b. that cut me off pulling onto a highway.

Go figure.

alpha

firstly, i'm 31...
and secondly have you read my posts?
i feel like i'm attempted to be understanding overall..
and if you read the posts i don't call for passivity at all..
i do however ask that there be some sort of reason to
go to war and that my president not lie to me...

i'm not asking anyone to agree with me..i'm just trying
to understand where people are coming from and when
they ask questions or insult me i try to more fully clarify
my point so that it's full understood where i stand..

i admit i don't fully support our current president. i voted
against him and although i believe he has what he thinks are
the best interest of the nation as his top priority, i feel that
his solutions to the problems he's attempting to resolve are
quite often the wrong choices. i feel america has a responsibility
to the world to make every effort not to go to war...i don't believe
our president did that..and although i understand your point on
decisive action..i feel there's a time and place for that as well.

and as for name calling i was angered by o+ claiming that i could
possibly be a person that could ignore the holocaust just from
misreading my post.. i don't feel that's something you should
throw around so i responded much like you do to oncoming cars...

i respect other people's opinions and apologize if i've not made
that clear.

Sure Lars, I have read your posts here. I have read all of them. I couldn't exactly tell you respect others opinions in this short venue, so I was using you to make a point. I hope that you did not think I was calling you out individually, just your posts.

What set me off was your waffle on Condi. She is certainly qualified and I wish you would not let others change your mind so easily about that. Do some research about her.

Here is a start...

Dr. Condoleezza Rice became the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, commonly referred to as the National Security Advisor, on January 22, 2001.

In June 1999, she completed a six year tenure as Stanford University 's Provost, during which she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As Provost she was responsible for a $1.5 billion annual budget and the academic program involving 1,400 faculty members and 14,000 students.

As professor of political science, Dr. Rice has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the highest teaching honors -- the 1984 Walter J. Gores Award for Excellence in Teaching and the 1993 School of Humanities and Sciences Dean's Award for Distinguished Teaching.

At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions.

From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military.

She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula . In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco.

Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the National Defense University in 2002, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004. She resides in Washington, D.C.

Before you (not Lars to my knowledge – but certainly others on this thread) start with offhanded Uncle Tom spouting and Condi bashing one should a state a reason for that opinion or stated more plainly, you better know what you're talking about - Javier.

I respect what I presume to be your liberal social ideals, but not when the recent injury of same causes you to act out in just the way you of all people should not.

I for one am offended.

alpha...
ok i see your point on condi...but didn't she say that she didn't
feel as though she was suited for being secstate...and instead
that she hoped to be the secretary of defense?...i may have misread.

i for one just feel as though it is troubling that such a large number
of bush's cabinet resigned right after the election...and were replaced
by people that seem to get in lock step with him instead of offering
differing opinions and such...i guess i just see condeleeza as a yes
woman...(but i could very easily be wrong)

and, for me, that opinion has nothing to do with her african/american
heritage..

i appreciate the info you've provided...it was interesting to read..
although i'm still not sure what actually makes one a good sec state.
..and i also don't know how many cabinet members are typically
replaced when there are two-term presidents. i am not typically politically motivated...i'd never voted in an election before this
one..for a variety of reasons...
bush however has scared me into action...and
i'm worried about what the next 4 years will bring us..and i don't
even have a child, like yourself.

o+: yeah, right, and I invented the transistor.

alphanumericcha: I am trying to listen to you and this is what I hear:
you are "in the middle" and you perceive gray areas
you feel like your thoughts are ignored
your uncle is coping with guilt
you believe in good and evil
you trust that GW Bush made a reasonable decision to go to war in Iraq.
good architects are decisive and proactive
you can't say if GW is a dictator yet
you believe in platitudes about age and wisdom
you buy into language about "terrorists and nations who harbor them" (like Saudi Arabia?)
you imply that your position is for "peace in Lebanon and Israel"
our efforts in Iraq are for the benefit of the Iraqi people
Dr. Rice has an impressive resume.
you are offended

I'm intrigued. What else? What do you think of the people of Afganistan? Are they worth the effort? Are the Iraqis worth a greater effort than the Afgans?

What do you think about the sprawl problem outside of Israel? Shouldn't they opt for "smart growth" principles instead? Was it a good idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine after WW2?

Do you think it is ironic that Israel would build a wall like that?

Were you and your family scared before September 11th? Has your fear been subsiding ever since?

Do you think our nation is the most wasteful on earth? Should we have supported the Kyoto protocol? Could the resources that were spent on the Iraq war have been better invested in sustainable development?

Do you think that the USA and its industries are interested in the middle east to benefit underpriveledged Arabs? Are some middle eastern populations more noble than others?

Were you skeptical when the Bush adminstration started pushing ultimatums about Iraq? Were you disappointed when congress voted to give Bush the okay to act on his own?

Has Dr. Rice in your opinion done a good job in her position? Do you believe what she says?

Do you think "war" is the right word to use in the context of terrorism?

Do you think that this administration is corrupt? Do you think that it has misused its power? What about the US media? Is it just a parrot?

Does being in the middle mean that you're not sure how you come down on these questions? What are your social ideals?

I'm intrigued. What else? What do you think of the people of Afganistan? Are they worth the effort? Are the Iraqis worth a greater effort than the Afgans?

I do not know much about Afghanistan except the former USSR had their version of Viet Nam and of course the recent history and No they are no less worthy. I would like to know what the average educated Afghan woman’s opinion is about what has happened there lately.

What do you think about the sprawl problem outside of Israel? Shouldn't they opt for "smart growth" principles instead? Was it a good idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine after WW2?

Yes there was a rush to build what was claimed and yes they need to get out of some for peace, easier said than done. Not sure what you mean “smart growth” in this context. I think their growth was more of a claiming and fortifying one and smart in the minds of some in Israel.

Do you think it is ironic that Israel would build a wall like that?

No

Were you and your family scared before September 11th? Has your fear been subsiding ever since?

Scared about terrorism – yes - but my family has some unusual exposure to those sorts of worldly problems. If your point is that most were not, you would be right. My fear has not subsided.

Do you think our nation is the most wasteful on earth? Should we have supported the Kyoto protocol? Could the resources that were spent on the Iraq war have been better invested in sustainable development?

Most of our people are the most wasteful on earth, not our nation. Some of our people are the most productive on Earth. I personally agree with Kyoto protocol and think it should be supported even if not in our best interest. I don’t know if the resources spent in Iraq could have been put to better use. I don’t have that particular brand of crystal ball.

Do you think that the USA and its industries are interested in the middle east to benefit underpriveledged Arabs? Are some middle eastern populations more noble than others?

Many of us are interested in helping Iraq’s people. I think most of the men and women over there now are. US industry is interested in making money. Some Middle Eastern people are more noble than others only evidenced by their actions.

Were you skeptical when the Bush adminstration started pushing ultimatums about Iraq? Were you disappointed when congress voted to give Bush the okay to act on his own?

I was not skeptical about W’s and Blair’s assertions knowing what I knew about Sadam and his regime. I am very concerned about the lack of evidence of WMD now. I want my friends and family home as soon as possible.


Has Dr. Rice in your opinion done a good job in her position? Do you believe what she says?

Dr. Rice is a brilliant woman and she will do well as sec state. I do believe what she says.

Do you think "war" is the right word to use in the context of terrorism?

Good question - As in the war against terrorism or that terrorist are at war with people who do not believe in what they believe?

Against terrorism - I think that war IS our military’s goal as evidence by the following statement by historian John Keegan who said about war , “It is assumed to be an orderly affair in which states are involved, in which there are declared beginnings and expected ends, easily identifiable combatants, and high levels of obedience by subordinates. The form of rational war is narrowly defined, as distinguished by the expectation of sieges, pitched battles, skirmishes, raids, reconnaissance, patrol and outpost duties, with each possessing their own conventions.”

I say yes in all contexts of terrorism if war is really as seen in Hegelian philosophy in which change (physical, social, political, economical, etc) can only arise out of war or violent conflict. - Just a series of battles which are mere symptoms of the underlying belligerent nature of the universe.

You choose.

Do you think that this administration is corrupt? Do you think that it has misused its power? What about the US media? Is it just a parrot?

No more corrupt than average. I do not think they have calculatedly misused power. The presidency is primarily a very powerful soap box and lighting rod at best in my opinion and most suited to deal with extreme threats to our nation. The US media’s primary goal is to make money. It seems that they feel the best way to do this is to be as sensational as possible. Whose fault is that? Sorry for that circular question.

Does being in the middle mean that you're not sure how you come down on these questions? What are your social ideals?

If you mean to insult me by your “being in the middle” characterization, a way of saying you are stupid and I am smart then I see no evidence of your intelligence posted here in this question. You may very well be more intelligent than me, you have asked some good questions.

My social ideals are mine and not for you to judge. If you were my friend (or were even really interested) then you could know me well enough to judge for yourself.

alpha-

he took the "middle" comment out of your post..

"Interestingly the right wing and left wing have been very successful consolidating their respective views.>>> Those of us who are in the middle <<<<and look at issues as complicated and part of a gradated reality are being ignored. "

That's right, from my post. I have been worried lately about people's perception of the moderate outlook on things and overly sensitive about that.

I think that being moderate is one way of bringing the sides together and my concern is that our divisions as a nation can't be healed if there is no middle ground. Here's and example of what I am talking about from USA today...

"Even before the newly elected Congress has been sworn in, conservatives are flexing their muscles on issues from intelligence reform to abortion."

Doesn't that scare the crap out of you?

Now a view from the other side,,,

"Our country is heading backward"

– Leora Dowling (moving to Italy)

"We were leaving anyhow, mostly because we want to start a family and we don't feel our children can get a decent education in the United States."

– Brian Sinicki (moving to France)

"I can no longer in good conscience support a nation that believes it is OK to lie to start wars ... I'm taking my assets out of the country and moving to Central America, where, ironically, I will have more freedom to live my life without interference from a corrupt government."

– Kelly Ann Thomas (moving to Central America)

Right, nations in Central America never lie – especially about war.

And then there's this:

With the ban on gay marriage passing in so many states and the conservative agenda President Bush is taking, it doesn't feel safe in the U.S. any more ... We are expecting that next year Bush will try to push the Federal Marriage Amendment Act through Congress again.

– Cindy Sproul (moving to Canada)

That's helpfull....(and I am sure they are really not moving anywhere)

and here are a few from this thread

err...how is condi qualified for anything?

- Javier

Maybe I mistook Space's question, what do you folks think?

you might also want to read this, alpha et al:

Science Braces for Second Term

Wired

go bush... better get a move on with only 4 more years of terror to induce.

pretty scare pic, sometimes i wonder what he really thinks.

i think if saddam would have given U.S. what we wanted i m pretty sure the U.S. would be happy to help him build nuclear plants and he would still be president.

but what do i know....

all this highbrow analysis. I think Kerry had his own problems, not least of which is the stricking resemblance to Herman Munster.
(as spotted in Private Eye).

That’s a good story Javier. Thank You.

I think Clinton/Gore and California had and have it right respectively. Push for scientific and environmental advancement by letting the free market work. If something (even if for the greater good) can make people money it will be pursued.

I believe making an enterprise profitable creates the avenue for advances. In my opinion the president should be laying out clearly what matters to all of us and working with business leaders and states to help create the incentives which will have the best chance of success.

Instead what I am seeing is a consolidation of the right and left. This Wired article frames this effect on scientific and educational levels. The consolidations are at least fostering a division among us which will make intelligent decisions at a national level difficult.

And thank you bots for those pics. Hilarious...

Alpha said:
“Historically speaking, with little exception, our nation has led into this national violence which is war, with others freedom and democracy in mind.”

I don’t think so!
Please read this as well!!

Operation Condor: Deciphering the U.S. Role.... by J. Patrice McSherry


J. Patrice McSherry is Associate Professor of Political Science at Long
Island University and author of Incomplete Transition: Military Power and Democracy in Argentina (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1997) and numerous articles on Condor and the Latin American military. She began studying Condor in the early 1990s and has conducted research in Paraguay, Chile, Argentina, and the United States.

is an interesting film project. Undoubtedly, some will think its all propaganda, and there's no telling how much of the original recordings were withheld in the editing process, but it's difficult to watch the movie and dismiss it as fraud.

I presume you're using the broader definition of war in putting forward this story.

I am not familiar with much about our actions in Central America from the 60's and 70's - but what I have heard (and now read) I don’t like.

I do think it important to distinguish what we as a nation mean by war. That’s why I thought Spaceman’s question a good one.

(off topic - sorry) How do you make some of the text in your post bold?

alpha: place your text between these two entities: [ b ] [ / b ] (but eliminate all the spaces) ...just like the img code at bottom of page...if you use i's instead of b's you get italics.

To answer re-'s original question.

Debate with purpose and grow though thoughful understanding.

That's what we will do as a nation. I am sure of it.

thank you :Javier:

thank you Javier

this will be a nice brake for archinect from my photo essays!!
thank you javier.

"Gog is Great"

"You can't bake a cake without breaking some eggs."