I had a job once working for a mechanical contractor where the drafting cubicles had no windows whatsoever. My second at the time was working at the mall. No windows. It really sucked being inside so much without sunlight. Once spring came around I would be driving to the second job in my convertible and could not force myself to go spend a beautiful sunny day inside. I gave notice at the second job not long after that. Later I worked in a renovated factory. My office had a window that faced a blank brick wall. There was no view but it got fantastic sunlight. I was usually very happy to be at work there. After that I was very aware of what my workspace will be like since we spend so much time there.

Maybe you can ask them if you can at least clean your workspace. An architectural office should be aware of the effect of filth and clutter on your mood. Maybe your working for some other kind of contractor though.

Thanks for the response jbushkey. I see that you had even worst working experiences. Actually there is a window here. I don't like to complain. I know it is dificult for a lot of people. in a different market I would find something better. I just hate to waste my time and hate feeling trapped in this place. I guess I shoul be patient, clean up this corner and do what I can to make it better and build something positive out of this.
Thanks

Hang in there for now carlor,
I worked at one office with all the windows facing North. My desk faces a cubicle wall. The vps office right behind me made sure i wouldnt turn around every other moment. I still did though screw them.

Thanks for the support creativity expert. I see I am not the only one questioning the system. I mean, I whish I had my own office and not "slave" for somebody else. I think I should start working toward that direction.
Thanks

toughen up kid! i know it sucks but right now, but showing that you were employed on your resume is better than showing you were sitting on your thumb all day.

ive been currently working at a firm for minimum wage. ive almost been here a year.... and almost crossing the finish line on my idp. i know the pay sucks and so does the atmosphere somewhat... but the mere fact is... no one is hiring. I've been actively looking... but until then I will put up with the B.S. and make the best out of the lemons that I have.

I guess you do need to be strong to stand what it seems to be foundamentally unfair. For sure it helps to have a goal and I whish you the best with completing your IDP k4dm0Nk3y!
I still believe there is something profoundly sick in the way we are forced to work at these conditions just to pay our bills, and having to forget most of our passion for architecture and creative work.

k4dm0Nk3y

80% complete with IDP= minimum wage sounds like a great start to a bitch thread. Seriously WTF? I guess it beats not working and not being able to complete IDP. There are enough of these stories on archinect to indicate that something is seriously F'd up in this field.

At least you are working - 6 months of unemployment = a pernament end to your architectutre career - nobody will hire you.
fairness, is not a right, it's a priveledge that must be earned.
be a good Marine and take the pain.

6 months of unemployment = a permanent end to your architecture career - nobody will hire you

ok, i'll be the first in line to bitch about how fucked up working conditions are in this field, but this is NOT true. i was unemployed for 6 months after i QUIT my job because i was sick of crappy conditions that weren't even close to what people are describing above...and i have a way better job now...one in which i set my own schedule and make a lot of my own decisions. just because there's a recession out there doesn't give anyone license to run professional-level sweatshops. get out of there and don't let anyone treat you this way. all this 'be glad you have a job' advice is destructive...it just serves to perpetuate this kind of devaluation of all our skills and earning power, and the profession will never fully recover from the depths.

if you are creative and entrepreneurial, you can MAKE a place for yourself even when no one is willing to give you one. look around at all the people who come here from foreign countries with nothing, and end up making something of themselves.

look, i don't mean to put down anybody's decisions...we have probably all done work that was beneath us to get to the next stage of our lives, but there are limits. when you are in a chicken farm without light and air for most of your waking hours, i would say that's past the limit...

I have to say that I agree with elinor, there is no way any self respecting person should put up with sweatshop conditions. Especially not a well education, person. Though there is no such thing as a hard line rule that 6 months unemployed equals no job in the future, I have to say that companies are using this great recession as an excuse to justify low pay, and no benefits. Quite frankly Architecture is a corrupt system right now, on par with corrupt practices of hiring only those you know, or sexually and age discrimination.

Ive worked at quite frankly in an office that just does not deserve the title of Architecture office, but they are very well funded from the other side of the Pacific, so the hiring managers do what they want with no consequences. Like elinor said we have to stand up and fight these corrupt practices. At that office I knew eventually who was going to get let go months ahead of time. I mean I knew intuitively, not that management told me. Every day I worked there they were frankly sucking the life out of me. So, when they finally got me and a dozen other guys together to tell us we were sacked, I was actually happy, and sad at the same time for my older co workers, because they didn't want to get canned, and some of those guys are a lot older and closer to retirement age. So it was pretty messed up. The people that they kept, I always knew who they would keep, and why. Recently have found out that they were actually sued for age discrimination, and probably will see more lawsuits. I mean this office is the prototype of what is wrong in our profession today, it has age discrimination, sexual discrimination, I would say even racial discrimination.

I think from talking to a lot of archinectors, it has been well established that we need to be our own bosses and stop being slaves to corporations.Frankly I wont be surprised if Architecture goes on trial on some conspiracy radio talk show. Linking it to who knows the rothschilds having a hand in architects demise. ok well thats all i have to say, maybe it is the sugar in the jello i just ate speaking.

spelling correction " Especially not a well educated person " , wow i said a mouthful last night, surprised no one is saying anything.

I agree regarding th "sucking the life out of me" part. It always take me a while at the and of the day to go back to myself. However, I see that those who accept more the working conditions also seem to suffer less. If you are not part of the "privileged" class, you are forced to work hard, also in these poor conditions, just to get by.
Anyway, thanks all of you for the thoughtful feedbacks.

I wouldn't be bothered too much by a not so nice cubicle but a non-functioning computer would piss the hell out of me and that was a situation I encountered often.

hi ms paradoxx, oh yes the cubicle job i was talking about had a bad computer also had a bunch of micromanagers, they would literally sneak up behind my shoulder sometimes just to see if i was surfing the net, but by the time i got to this office I had been past my net surfing stage what a bunch of pricks. A month after I left that office, I found out that one of their all star pm's who was about my age jumped ship, along with several others, which was a huge number for this small 30 person office, especially when only half of those were architecture grads. Well u live and you learn.

"At least you are working - 6 months of unemployment = a permanent end to your architecture career - nobody will hire you."

Yeah, not entirely true. I recently got a job and I was unemployed for 20 months. Sure, there are a lot of offices that are being grade A a-holes and only hiring employed people, but there is hope for the unemployed. I think as long as you can demonstrate you used your time to do productive things - small projects, learn software, etc - you are fine.

What kind of an ahole thinks that in a recession with 30%+ unemployment for our field that being out of work disqualifies you from a new position? This is probably a good indicator of how they treat the help.

There are plenty based on recent news articles and the number of interviews that I have been asked "why are you unemployed?"

Perhaps they expect you to go work at a fry pit for less than you can collect while entering competitions instead of sleeping. Does "coordinated paper vs plastic with clients" at your grocery store job give a big boost to your resume?

Hey Cherith, so you finally got yourself a job, huh? Was wondering why youve been absent from the forum. Did you end up getting one around where you lived, or did you have to move? I see more job ads where I live, so hopefully things are improving, but who knows...

D_S - Occasionally I need a break from Gossip Girl, er Archinect. Decided I should be spending more times doing something productive, so I took on a few side projects and invested the time to learning Revit. Shortly there after, an interview quickly lead to a job offer. I'd like to think that focusing more on productive work instead of knowingly contributing to the melancholy that permeates these forums worked to my benefit. But maybe it was just good timing.

I will be moving (as the job hasn't started yet) quite a distance. Heading to the East Coast (from New Mexico). I'm banking on the East Coast seeing recovery faster than the West, which I am afraid might be struggling for a long time to come.

Cherith I went the other way years ago. Your going to sorely miss breakfast burritos (burritos in general are just not as good here), dry heat, and green chilli. Congratulations on the new job.

Haha. True. I'm stocking up on Sadie's Salsa before I leave that will hopefully get me through Christmas. I'm hoping that the trade-off from dry heat to humidity means my hair and skin won't always be drier than the Archinect 2009 job board.

congratulations cherith cutesotry, its been a long time since we have heard some good news around here at archinect.

Hey Cherith, I'll second the congratulations! I know it's been a tough patch for ya, and I'm really happy to see you land a gig. Where are you heading out to? You'll probably need a scarf and some mittens.

Creativity, we need to get your sorry ass back into work mode next :)

well i have had one interview per week for the past 4 weeks, but no calls so far, my last architecture office i interviewed at was really impressed by my ability to be a jack of all trades except they wanted a sketchup artist oh well, not someone that can do cd's, ca, dd, schematic. over all things are looking good so far.

Congrads Cherith! Must be great to finally land a job after all that time. Did you network to get this gig, or was it more like emailing your stuff to firms and applying to places from job boards? Is it a small office or bug corporate firm? Anyway good luck and enjoy!

And Creativity one interview per week for the last four weeks? Maybe things are picking up around here in Chicago after all.

Thanks everyone. I'm heading to 'The District' in a few weeks. I was hoping Obama could spare a room, but I guess I will make do on my own.

I'll be doing the large letter office thing, which I haven't done before, so it should be good experience and allow me to work on some high-profile stuff. It was a job I applied for, but not advertised outside of the office job board. I've found most of the larger corporates don't advertise unless they are looking for someone very senior and specialized so you have to routinely check-in to their careers page (if that is something you are interested in). The entire application - interview - hiring process was very fast, which I hope means they have work and a lot of it.

I feel like most of the advertised jobs, especially on Archinect, still generate 300+ applications. It's hard to get excited about considering to apply to anyone that advertises because I know I will be 1 in hundreds of applications they receive. I still don't know exactly what got me in the door for this job, but I am not complaining.

Sorry CarloR for hijacking your thread.

I've been where you have been before and it was hard to get excited about the work. From my experience, I would try to make the best of it. First of all, you won't qualify for unemployment benefits unless you were laid-off and working for a minimum of 6 months (in most states) so at the very least you have a few more months to clear.

Beyond just the logistics, I do think it is easier for those already employed, regardless of the office, to find jobs than the unemployed. Chalk it up to employers looking for easy way to weed out applicants. Aside from that, UE does lose it's luster after a few months. Looking back, it would have been nice to hold onto my previous job.

Things I would recommend:

> If you are working on IDP, use this as an opportunity to knock-out as many of those hours as you can. Talk to a supervisor or PM and see if you can get more work in areas that you are deficient in. You might find that showing the initiative will get you some other assignments beyond CAD work.

> Does the office pay for exams? LEED may be a bunch of BS but it sure looks good on a resume.

> Since you are employed, aside from sending out resumes and maybe polishing the work samples, find a competition to do. If work is not cutting it, shift your creative energy to a competition.

OR

> Look for projects you can do on your own. Is a friend or neighbor in need of a kitchen remodel? Interior design advice? Maybe your own home or apartment could use some TLC.

> Look for stuff to do outside of work and architecture. This is the time to take up a hobby that you can use to escape the nightmare that office life sometimes is. I suggest something outdoors and exercise related - 2 things most architects are pretty deficient on.

approximately 50% of those interviews were for jobs outside of architecture.

That' ok Cherith Cutestory.
Actually I find your suggestions very well thought and useful.
I had some of it already in my mind and i definetely need to keep working on most of the points you made.
I really hope it will help me brighten up a little my working days in this office.
Thanks.

I had an interview did not hear back but it is a break in the long dry spell. I managed to learn skills and do a design competition. I very prominently and possibly arrogantly placed on my resume managing partner of my design freelance group, we have 3 projects done and one underway, it barely pays but the fact I’m hustling for work looks good to small firms that need all hands on deck to net new work, and I have REVIT and LEED experience to make the larger firms take notice. Although I haven’t heard from them about the interview it has only been two weeks I did ask the HR manager during my phone interview what placed me on the list of candidates to invite for an interview and they said the following weighed heavily.

1 LEED AP

2 Revit

3 Ability to relocate

4 I was currently employed even though it was survivor retail work, She said “I appreciate you are working”

So lessons to learn, work is work and if you are working a job to pay the bills and it is not morally questionable, I would mention it and try to use that manager as a reference if possible.

Fingers crossed but the first interview is not looking like an anomaly other opportunities may develop.

Don’t be afraid to ask why you were not selected in an interview

Check out the link:
http://www.theladders.com/career-advice/how-to-force-feedback-
following-job-interview

As for Sketch-UP learn it use it love it, it is free and the sketch Up for dummies book is easy to use.

Over and OUT

Apparently a bad job can be worse for your mental health than no job at all!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jZ97kJM5i9deqtOedhFwcJwJSx2Q?docId=N0476751300108240388A

Sure! If work means staying closed in solitary confinement like situation doing alienating job to pay your bills and enrich your boss, it is hard to like it. No more time for your family and for yourself. However, like we said, there is no easy way out and you have to work to put yourself in a better position, I guess.

The cynicism inherent in these three words is both profound and unproductive.

The owners of businesses take on considerable financial and professional risk. While it is true that some business owners exploit and abuse their employees, my long experience in the profession suggests that most business owners respect the people they employ, work hard to treat them fairly, and do the best they can under difficult circumstances.

I look forward to that utopian world 20 years in the future - a world where all of the 20-somethings and 30-somethings who complain bitterly now about evil employers hold positions of ownership themselves. I am confident that all of these sad tales will have become a thing of the past, all employees will achieve wealth by working 40-hours per week, and employers will cheerfully absorb huge economic losses to maintain full employment during periods of no work.

the cynicism inherent in these forty-four words is both profound and unproductive.

i think y'all are going to have to meet halfway and ditch the cynacism to make any progress on this.

A lot of good points and recommendations in this thread. I tend to agree with some of the more positive advice, rather than the 'be lucky you have a job' attitude. The idea that the only talented and worthy people are those currently working is false. Since my official layoff in '09 I have been fortunate to have found contract work on a project to project basis, seems to be a common alternative for some firms, hiring staff for a specific project. It can be great if you have a few good contacts to work with, but there is no job security, no benefits, and reduced wages. It will be interesting to see what direction our industry heads as we endure this recession. I am also trying to diversify my opportunities by starting a small company in which I can utilize my design talent in a niche other than working for a firm. The competition is fierce out there!

distant and won and done...

i normally would fall on the side of the small business owner. and it used to be that that described most architects (minus the mega firms of course). but now, those smaller guys seems to be going away. i know a lot of friends who were in that category and have had to leave to look for a living elsewhere.

BUT - my point is that i am no longer on their side anyway. in the recent issue of design intelligence (compensation and salary survery) there are MORE executive level architects making greater than 800k a year than there used to be before the recession. AND executive pay has CONTINUED TO INCREASE during the recession. sure, inflation acounts for some of that blah blah. BUT at the same time intern pay CONTINUES to decrease. so, my point is that the profession is looking more and more like that graph that is on one of these threads showing that all the wealth is at the top. if that continues, none of the young bright people will be dumb enough to get into the profession any more. or at the very least, i think it will sour the careers of many, many young people. that is a sad reality. in my opinion, those at the top have been taking more than their fair share of the pie, and it needs to be backed down a little bit.

distant, perhaps in that utopian future we can all work for the government. That'll fix everything!

CMNDCTRL - the Design Intelligence compensation syrvey is worth just about as much as the DI ranking of schools ... i.e. zero

Cramer just talks to a few of his buddies in the bigger firms (mostly his clients) and chalks that up to research.

file - hahaha, fair enough.

We should stop and think exactly what it is we want and what it is we can obtain.

It is unfortunate but architects tend to start out at or below the pay of teachers, but our wages potentially increase while our experience, expertise and ability to shoulder risk increases. Economic down turns slow the wage increase from the bottom up the ripple has yet to reach all of the top, but the many firms small and some big that closed down are where the top earners in our industry are going to get their pay knocked down. This is sad because they will also be taking down lots of others who enable them to earn those salaries.

Architects should not try and imagine themselves as engineers we are not able to immediately command high salaries and thus should not expect to have all the comforts of a middle class life during and for a time after this recession.

If we want to earn more we need to reign in the diploma mills cranking out people who can think about architecture and reward the schools and individuals who are able to produce architecture or people who can be productive in the design of buildings from day one. IDP is a process meant to correct this deficiency in our education system but a student with a diploma from an accredited school should know the building codes, ADA, software and how to calculate simple structural systems, we are surrendering a lot of the work and decision making to consultants and thus surrendering our potential earnings and our standing in the construction industry. As we continue to see this debate between Vocational and academic training in our schools we will continue to stand on the sidelines as other professionals step up and take charge of the work that is not being done.

When was the last time you heard of an architecture school teaching a class on specifications alone?

As for the current crop of young (not personal age but work experience) professionals we need to become multi talented. Take on the stuff people don’t want to do like speck writing, LEED project managing, marketing to potential clients, learn the skills on the fringes as well as the core competencies and you should become more useful and more employable. Get a real-estate license, or work towards an accounting degree or and HR certification at your local community college. If you can balance the books manage benefits and design you might be the catch all person a firm needs.

The more hats you can wear the more likely you will find a place to hang them.

Perhaps my point got lost in translation (which would be my own fault) ... these efforts to divide the profession into a "we vs. them" world are misplaced, IMHO.

My own experience suggests that all generations in the profession consist of a small percentage of incompetent a-holes at one extreme, a small percentage of professionals who will be successful beyond anybody's wildest imagination at the other extreme, and the huge middle group who are solidly decent folks, with average capabilities, doing their best every day to eke out a reasonable living and serve their clients well.

Way too many posts here on archinect seem to concentrate on the extremes, as representative of what an entire profession is, or should become -- they're not.

I may be misinformed but aren’t the folks earning the most in our profession doing less “architecture” and more administrative stuff anyway?

As a general rule, the really big bucks tend to flow to those who can consistently bring a steady stream of profitable work to the firm.

PJN26 Should we also be magicians so we can add magic tricks to our resume? Perhaps studying banking and insurance so we could approve the loans and underwrite the project is necessary. Real Estate is somewhat related to what we do, but is also different enough to be it's own career. Accounting and HR are completely separate disciplines. If a 5 year degree is not enough, especially considering how hard people work in school, then we are not being taught the right things.

Other problems include a residential mortgage crisis that is not yet resolved, retail that is completely over built, and software that keeps getting faster.

Anyone currently entering this profession to collect a paycheck instead of with the mindset of an entrepreneur or small business owner is in for a rough ride... if they can even get on board.

unfortunately in these large firms with massive executive pay, the people really bringing in the work are never credited - that would be the assorted "pursuit" team along (hustled together off the deadlines of paying jobs for an overly intense few days with the marketing dept)

Mr. Executive Principal man has a role to play in the interview process and generally just waltzes in as a good character actor - well-tailored good-fit suit with dandy tie, wasp-y, bespeckled, trimmed facial hair if any at all, "green" key phrases splashed about, a few plugs for "our team of national experts", has rehearsed a few stale, worn facts about the glossy projects in the slide show, most of which he's never seen because they're located in other parts of the country and completed by the smaller firms that were recently acquired.

Silber ... isn't that a little like saying Dwight Eisenhower really had nothing important to contribute to the Normandy Invasion or the defeat of Nazi Germany ?

While it's quite easy to be dismissive of the contributions by senior executives, large firms don't become large firms - and stay large firms - if the folks at the top are dolts.

Jbushkey

Magic aside knowing real-estate, banking and insurance will be hugely beneficial as a lot of developer clients will want from their architectural design team a feasibility study, can they finance this projects what are the risk involved. We don’t want to propose a design that is too expensive or is not developing the land to the fullest potential. Knowing what the terms and conditions of a mortgage or bond issue would be for a significant building helps inform our choices in the types of systems we employ in design influencing how fast a project is to be constructed. Basic knowledge is different than working knowledge we need to probably shoot for the low end of working knowledge so we can propose a project to a client or developer that will be buildable in the monetary sense.

By the way this feasibility study stuff is the high stakes risky thing principals in the firms I worked for did. The big firms have leaders with more than an architecture degree under their belts

Architects are inflexible in their careers where as engineers and construction managers constantly move in and out of different industries, a mechanical engineer in the printing industry can switch to the folding bleacher industry and then to the RV industry no sweat, the holders of an MBA have to learn and adapt to a new industry with every job. Maybe Architects can benefit from thinking outside of the box that is construction and venture a little further into insurance, banking and other fields where our skills are needed. For example a lot of banks want loan officers with a grasp of construction cost and zoning to know if an estimate is way off or not.

Magic tricks should be used as a last resort to land a client, leave that up to the principle to waive his magic pencil around.

Quizzical, not saying the top brass aren't smart: they got big corporate game for sure or they wouldn't be there.

Just saying...in the case of the big offices, the ratio of compensation heads receive (over which they have a much more direct say - being board members etc.) of firm profits based on the perception that they're "bringing in projects" is simply not proportional to that of the people working to really bring in the projects (let alone complete the work). Unless the person is a name-brand, big firms are like other corporations - firm brand is more important than the rotating heads that predictably move between the large firms.

PJN I think you missed my point. Do you think accountants and HR people are saying to themselves "If only I could go get a B.Arch I might be the person the firm needs?"

Your most recent post mentions basic knowledge vs. working knowledge. Your first post says:

If you can balance the books manage benefits and design you might be the catch all person a firm needs.

You also talk about an "accounting degree". To me this level would be better described as expert. While I am willing to learn codes, zoning, LEED, design, construction technology, software, estimating, etc I did not go into architecture to deal with the insurance boondoggle. Even though there might actually be some small firm owners who are doing these three things it is combining three different jobs. I doubt you would find such a person at a firm of any significant size.

It is good you are thinking way outside the box even if I don't agree with you. It would be great to be able to do everything*, but I already have more I want to learn about design, software, and developing than I will get through for a long, long time.

*forget the M.Arch where can I get that M.Universe degree Larchinect mentioned