Job Description - Intermediate Architect
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Summary: Amble Resorts is seeking a young architect to work as a pivotal member of a small in-house design team creating cutting-edge eco-resorts. This person will be involved in, and responsible for, every aspect of the design process from concept through construction administration.
I've been called a lot names in my life but creepy hasn't been one of them. Is this the part where we start to argue like high schoolers? going back and forth? not interested.
Seriously, what is there to complain about in that ad? There's a fairly realistic salary range, a definition of the responsibilities, and they aren't practicing age discrimination by saying 'young' (now, if they reject someone who's 65 solely because they're too old, yeah, that's actual discrimination). Just for the sake of discussion, take out the word - would it still cause you to say this belongs on the 'architects getting f'd' thread?
What am I missing here - the ad's not misleading in a way that's apparent to me. What is there to bitch about, that you aren't working for google and getting complimentary meals and rubdowns? They've disclosed more information than a lot of ad's I've seen...
agreed. i used to make 45k, now with the recession, i make 35k w/o benefits. a bad deal, but i have a job. and i have six years of experience, and i know what i'm doing, and how to do with with almost no oversight. you people need to wake up.
Hi Mr. Walker,
I'm more of an observer on this thread. Putting in my two cents, I'd say that legally you are correct that this particular ad, by including the word "young", does not equal age discrimination, and has not committed said act.
I think that people on here have actually worked in architecture offices, for years. Maybe they are recalling there experience in the office environment? you should remember that as early as 3 years ago they started to fire lots of people, and within architecture now estimates are at about 50% laid off. I would imagine that every firing was different. Some people like me for example might have been relieved to be laid off. I was the only guy smiling at the conference room table, when they told us the news. Then there are other people who really did not want to get laid off.
Well what I'm getting at is that everyone in architecture, has experienced discrimination in one form or another. Whether they admit it or keep silent about it, and maybe these experienced laid off archinectors have seen that, so yes you are technically correct this ad does not mean age discrimination has been committed yet, but you should be more sensitive to the fact that it does exist even in the so called professional office environment.
young = cheap architect. bah. makes me sick that architects aren't well-paid and appreciated after studying so many years and after so many sleepless nights.
this ad is probably illegal. I wish AIA did something about all this instead of just charging annuities.
I also wish you had put the name of the firm so we all could boycott them.
I spoke with Ben Loomis a couple years ago. We had an hour long informal phone interview. He seems like a nice enough guy. Former architecture student, I believe he went to MIT for real estate development afterwards, if I remember right. He wanted to develop an eco-resort in Panama. Plus, he's noting the salary range right there in the ad. He's not bait and switching anybody. By "young" I'm assuming he means non-licensed or just doesn't want to put an age range of required experience down, which we all know means absolutely nothing in this field.
In Europe pretty much every ad has the word young in it. The younger the candidate the better. As a matter of fact, a recent poll showed that the majority of architecture firms have an average age staff of 27. People don't take candidates older than 35. And there is an increase in numbers of new firms with owners less than 30. Who ever said that architecture is an old mans game is utterly falls. Architecture here is more like the female gymnastic sport.
Jaja, it is no different in the US. That's why you see 1/4 of architects practicing on their own. I've also noticed from about age 28-35 there's a mass exodus from the corporate office... or architecture in general... or "practicing" on your own while truthfully living off your spouse's income. If you don't have the fortune of being made a player by then, get on your own or get out.
I do of some one who did make it by 28 - she is exceptionally brilliant, never got laid off, passed all her A.R.E. is 1 year flat, and is now an associate designer for a major firm in San Francisco. Why?
She is driven, never makes excuses, ands always does what it takes.
it is no accident, or luck - she made her own luck - others in her office didn't put in the extra licks, and they all got laid off.
we all need to go out and make our own business venture at some point, but to say that by age of 35 no matter what you have to get out of architecture or get out on your own, I think that is a little to inflexible and naive. Life has all kinds of people. Not all of us went right to college at the ripe age of 18. Many like myself, served in the military for anywhere from 4 to even 10 years, then we went to college, and paid for it with our GI bill and veterans benefits we earned. Well lets see, even if we go to college at 18, say we do a 2+4 year program or a 5 year professional degree you are 23 or 24. Typical in a perfect world, but is that the case with everyone? I think we all could agree it is not. So continuing on in a perfect scenario from age of 24 to 35, assuming that in this perfect scenario you worked for all those years, that would give you 11 years of experience. A fair amount of time, but is 11 years of experience enough to have the connections, money and knowledge needed to open your own office? It could be, but not for everyone. In a real world scenario you will not work in architecture offices for all that time, let alone have the opportunity to be the project manager for many years. Ok considering that this person is earning experience during his or her 20's and early 30's when we, humans are pretty much still lets just say fairly young and unattached to any responsibility. The bottom line is I have yet to see an architecture office being managed by only people under 35.
I went to college at 18, studied graphic and industrial design, then became a 3D Artist, working in flight simulation, then later in my 40's no less, an environmental designer in video games. So at 50, I studied architecture, then upon graduation, went to work at SOM performing production with Revit. I did well there, but 18 months later, when the bottom fell out, I got laid off, and it took 12 months of study, networking, rejection, re-working my portfolio to meet the new increased standards, to get back in the game. Currently, I am performing production and some design with Revit at a small architecture office in San Francisco. I run into a lot of discouragement from people, many try to steer me into other "age appropriate" fields, like insurance sales, multilevel marketing, and tax preparation" My plan is to keep going and get licensed - just going to have to go it alone, and ignore the advice of those who want to “save me from ruin” kids Society won't change, so I will stick to my path and not be influenced by society. the more of us, who stand and fight, the better. Or as the bumper sticker says:
“Don’t be discouraged by those who gave up on their dreams”
Accepting and capitulation to age discrimination, is what keeps it going.
That's what I'm talking about rethinkit, we need more people that stand and fight for a better tomorrow. There's no way I'm going let someone discourage me, or make me think that because I'm 34 I'm a has been, Like the poet Frost said, Ive got miles to go and miles to go, and every time I see any contemporary piece of architecture it encourages me more, why because I know I can do better than that crap I see. Architecture is not a profession for those that give up.
creativity, I personally agree 100%. I'm just making a generalization. And I applaud rethinkit. But the end of his post just reinforces my generalization. I don't think many of us can argue that there isn't a thinning of the ranks in the architecture office the older we get.
i agree -- it sucks to think i'm not even ten years into my career and yet if i'm not careful, i may be considered a has-been
it sucks to think of possibly having to reinvent oneself by the time one is in the mid 30's after having jumped through all of the hoops and done things 'the right way'
"it sucks to think of possibly having to reinvent oneself by the time one is in the mid 30's after having jumped through all of the hoops and done things 'the right way'"
Jeez, thats all I do, my life is constant reinvention
I have been in the process of re-inventing myself for the last 30 years - It is necessary to stay fresh, learn thoroughly the latest design methodology, and design theories/processes, take classes, run a marathon, hell, my 54 year old sister swam to Alcatraz and back - me? I channged careers from video game 3D artist to architecture. we both swim with the sharkss -Jmanganelli, I realized that when I turned 30, that I would have to re-invent myself constantly to stay in whatever game I chose, to survive - I survived and thrived for 11 years in the video game industry(most people only last 2 years), because I was constanly in student mode, learning the latest technology, then studying architecture - it's probably because of this approach, that I even have a job in an architetcture office no less at an age when they are usually asking you about moving to Colma(a town just south of San Francisco where the population is 6' underground) - nooo thank you, I will just re-invent myself.
just thought id share this job post: you guys make of it what you will, if this doesnt prove that the only rule in architecture hiring and firing is there are no rules, oh well.
"CAD Technician
CAD qualified person, preferably at or near retirement age, to be an independent contractor to perform technical duties near Aurora - Naperville suburbs. Training is to be furnished. The qualified person will need to travel locally, collect data and prepare CAD results."
i hear you, rethinkit, and i value your views on this forum
reinventing oneself can be fun, it can be beneficial --- but never getting to settle into a pattern is not healthy either; not having down time gets old after a while and has its impact
Ha... I saw that ad a few days ago. It sounded like measures. Now tell me what 70 yr. old retiree architect is going to be stooping around as-builts everyday? Their arthritis would kick in by 10 am, day one.
whenever i see this title appear at the top of the forum, i get this mental image of a creepy old man, like the old pedophile on Family Guy, praying upon unsuspecting young designers on craigslist or some such site.....or in his office.....
"in the Family Guy creepy old guy whistly voice"
-- ahh Chrissss, I sssseem to have dropped my T-sssssquare --- would you be a good young architect and bend over and pick it up for me? yeahh, that'sss it. Thank you very much"
Whenever I see this thread title, the image i get is of an office run by men who want young women to stare at all day. guess it is what i have seen out there. I always remember this incident at the office where a very beautiful interior designer, who was replacing paper on the printer, decided to bend over to do this, only thing was that the VP's office was right behind her, and his office walls are all clear glass. I do remember one architect near retirement age who, by the time I met him he was pretty sick and tired of architecture drafting, he decided to call it quits and retired. He was still in good shape and could have kept on going, but I think you can only draw so many sets before u lose your mind who knows. Another older architect was actually retired, but he worked part time for an office, he was a valuable resource for everyone, only worked until about 11 or 12.
Mar 2, 11 9:25 am ·
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"seeking a young architect"
Job Description - Intermediate Architect
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Summary: Amble Resorts is seeking a young architect to work as a pivotal member of a small in-house design team creating cutting-edge eco-resorts. This person will be involved in, and responsible for, every aspect of the design process from concept through construction administration.
Young? like what is the age range?
That's illegal.
under 35, I assume that is what they mean.
Well Oscar is 102 and still practicing....so I must be young and I was born over a half a century ago....
I am more afraid of 'cutting-edge-eco-resorts'
as young as possible.
well atleast these guys are not hiding the fact that they want them young, i just turned 34, and i still consider myself an architectural baby.
YA mdler, " I am more afraid of 'cutting-edge-eco-resorts," being designed in Chi-Town.... Probably a SOM spin off or Perkins and Wills...
"seeking a young architect" . . .
i think thats how i met my ex.
I'm guessing "young" is code for "cheap" in this case.
Donna....the most like would like to think of it as "Less Expensive"...
gag!
Or "willing to entertain alternative forms of payment for services".
donna still owes me a tumbles pic.
Thread is getting creepy, now.
na, its kind of an inside archinect joke from an earlier thread, I dont actually expect tumbles shoes to appear in my email box lol.
Being creepy about it in another thread previously is not "an inside joke."
I've been called a lot names in my life but creepy hasn't been one of them. Is this the part where we start to argue like high schoolers? going back and forth? not interested.
By alternative forms of payment I meant a percentage of the success of the eco-resort. To which one has to say caveat emptor.
there are plenty of pics of tumbles on archinect. you just don't know where to look.
"The Goat Lady" is HOT!
doesn't this thread belong in the 'architects getting f'd on craigslist' thread?
i don't know. according to the ad...
Compensation: $50,000 - $60,000, with additional performance based incentives
18 hour days = young architect?
Where does it say 18 hour days?
Seriously, what is there to complain about in that ad? There's a fairly realistic salary range, a definition of the responsibilities, and they aren't practicing age discrimination by saying 'young' (now, if they reject someone who's 65 solely because they're too old, yeah, that's actual discrimination). Just for the sake of discussion, take out the word - would it still cause you to say this belongs on the 'architects getting f'd' thread?
What am I missing here - the ad's not misleading in a way that's apparent to me. What is there to bitch about, that you aren't working for google and getting complimentary meals and rubdowns? They've disclosed more information than a lot of ad's I've seen...
agreed. i used to make 45k, now with the recession, i make 35k w/o benefits. a bad deal, but i have a job. and i have six years of experience, and i know what i'm doing, and how to do with with almost no oversight. you people need to wake up.
Hi Mr. Walker,
I'm more of an observer on this thread. Putting in my two cents, I'd say that legally you are correct that this particular ad, by including the word "young", does not equal age discrimination, and has not committed said act.
I think that people on here have actually worked in architecture offices, for years. Maybe they are recalling there experience in the office environment? you should remember that as early as 3 years ago they started to fire lots of people, and within architecture now estimates are at about 50% laid off. I would imagine that every firing was different. Some people like me for example might have been relieved to be laid off. I was the only guy smiling at the conference room table, when they told us the news. Then there are other people who really did not want to get laid off.
Well what I'm getting at is that everyone in architecture, has experienced discrimination in one form or another. Whether they admit it or keep silent about it, and maybe these experienced laid off archinectors have seen that, so yes you are technically correct this ad does not mean age discrimination has been committed yet, but you should be more sensitive to the fact that it does exist even in the so called professional office environment.
Oh, you guys took the fun out of this thread.
fun is my middle name sarah, creativity "fun times" expert.
young = cheap architect. bah. makes me sick that architects aren't well-paid and appreciated after studying so many years and after so many sleepless nights.
this ad is probably illegal. I wish AIA did something about all this instead of just charging annuities.
I also wish you had put the name of the firm so we all could boycott them.
I spoke with Ben Loomis a couple years ago. We had an hour long informal phone interview. He seems like a nice enough guy. Former architecture student, I believe he went to MIT for real estate development afterwards, if I remember right. He wanted to develop an eco-resort in Panama. Plus, he's noting the salary range right there in the ad. He's not bait and switching anybody. By "young" I'm assuming he means non-licensed or just doesn't want to put an age range of required experience down, which we all know means absolutely nothing in this field.
I can always do a better kitchen at a younger age....
In Europe pretty much every ad has the word young in it. The younger the candidate the better. As a matter of fact, a recent poll showed that the majority of architecture firms have an average age staff of 27. People don't take candidates older than 35. And there is an increase in numbers of new firms with owners less than 30. Who ever said that architecture is an old mans game is utterly falls. Architecture here is more like the female gymnastic sport.
Jaja, it is no different in the US. That's why you see 1/4 of architects practicing on their own. I've also noticed from about age 28-35 there's a mass exodus from the corporate office... or architecture in general... or "practicing" on your own while truthfully living off your spouse's income. If you don't have the fortune of being made a player by then, get on your own or get out.
Gotta "get made"... Architecture as mafia.
I do of some one who did make it by 28 - she is exceptionally brilliant, never got laid off, passed all her A.R.E. is 1 year flat, and is now an associate designer for a major firm in San Francisco. Why?
She is driven, never makes excuses, ands always does what it takes.
it is no accident, or luck - she made her own luck - others in her office didn't put in the extra licks, and they all got laid off.
we all need to go out and make our own business venture at some point, but to say that by age of 35 no matter what you have to get out of architecture or get out on your own, I think that is a little to inflexible and naive. Life has all kinds of people. Not all of us went right to college at the ripe age of 18. Many like myself, served in the military for anywhere from 4 to even 10 years, then we went to college, and paid for it with our GI bill and veterans benefits we earned. Well lets see, even if we go to college at 18, say we do a 2+4 year program or a 5 year professional degree you are 23 or 24. Typical in a perfect world, but is that the case with everyone? I think we all could agree it is not. So continuing on in a perfect scenario from age of 24 to 35, assuming that in this perfect scenario you worked for all those years, that would give you 11 years of experience. A fair amount of time, but is 11 years of experience enough to have the connections, money and knowledge needed to open your own office? It could be, but not for everyone. In a real world scenario you will not work in architecture offices for all that time, let alone have the opportunity to be the project manager for many years. Ok considering that this person is earning experience during his or her 20's and early 30's when we, humans are pretty much still lets just say fairly young and unattached to any responsibility. The bottom line is I have yet to see an architecture office being managed by only people under 35.
True
I went to college at 18, studied graphic and industrial design, then became a 3D Artist, working in flight simulation, then later in my 40's no less, an environmental designer in video games. So at 50, I studied architecture, then upon graduation, went to work at SOM performing production with Revit. I did well there, but 18 months later, when the bottom fell out, I got laid off, and it took 12 months of study, networking, rejection, re-working my portfolio to meet the new increased standards, to get back in the game. Currently, I am performing production and some design with Revit at a small architecture office in San Francisco. I run into a lot of discouragement from people, many try to steer me into other "age appropriate" fields, like insurance sales, multilevel marketing, and tax preparation" My plan is to keep going and get licensed - just going to have to go it alone, and ignore the advice of those who want to “save me from ruin” kids Society won't change, so I will stick to my path and not be influenced by society. the more of us, who stand and fight, the better. Or as the bumper sticker says:
“Don’t be discouraged by those who gave up on their dreams”
Accepting and capitulation to age discrimination, is what keeps it going.
That's what I'm talking about rethinkit, we need more people that stand and fight for a better tomorrow. There's no way I'm going let someone discourage me, or make me think that because I'm 34 I'm a has been, Like the poet Frost said, Ive got miles to go and miles to go, and every time I see any contemporary piece of architecture it encourages me more, why because I know I can do better than that crap I see. Architecture is not a profession for those that give up.
creativity, I personally agree 100%. I'm just making a generalization. And I applaud rethinkit. But the end of his post just reinforces my generalization. I don't think many of us can argue that there isn't a thinning of the ranks in the architecture office the older we get.
i agree -- it sucks to think i'm not even ten years into my career and yet if i'm not careful, i may be considered a has-been
it sucks to think of possibly having to reinvent oneself by the time one is in the mid 30's after having jumped through all of the hoops and done things 'the right way'
"it sucks to think of possibly having to reinvent oneself by the time one is in the mid 30's after having jumped through all of the hoops and done things 'the right way'"
Jeez, thats all I do, my life is constant reinvention
I have been in the process of re-inventing myself for the last 30 years - It is necessary to stay fresh, learn thoroughly the latest design methodology, and design theories/processes, take classes, run a marathon, hell, my 54 year old sister swam to Alcatraz and back - me? I channged careers from video game 3D artist to architecture. we both swim with the sharkss -Jmanganelli, I realized that when I turned 30, that I would have to re-invent myself constantly to stay in whatever game I chose, to survive - I survived and thrived for 11 years in the video game industry(most people only last 2 years), because I was constanly in student mode, learning the latest technology, then studying architecture - it's probably because of this approach, that I even have a job in an architetcture office no less at an age when they are usually asking you about moving to Colma(a town just south of San Francisco where the population is 6' underground) - nooo thank you, I will just re-invent myself.
IOW, comfort kills "little pink houses..."
just thought id share this job post: you guys make of it what you will, if this doesnt prove that the only rule in architecture hiring and firing is there are no rules, oh well.
"CAD Technician
CAD qualified person, preferably at or near retirement age, to be an independent contractor to perform technical duties near Aurora - Naperville suburbs. Training is to be furnished. The qualified person will need to travel locally, collect data and prepare CAD results."
i hear you, rethinkit, and i value your views on this forum
reinventing oneself can be fun, it can be beneficial --- but never getting to settle into a pattern is not healthy either; not having down time gets old after a while and has its impact
its nice to see a thread where we all come to a cordial conclusion of sorts, pretty rare on archinect.
Ha... I saw that ad a few days ago. It sounded like measures. Now tell me what 70 yr. old retiree architect is going to be stooping around as-builts everyday? Their arthritis would kick in by 10 am, day one.
whenever i see this title appear at the top of the forum, i get this mental image of a creepy old man, like the old pedophile on Family Guy, praying upon unsuspecting young designers on craigslist or some such site.....or in his office.....
"in the Family Guy creepy old guy whistly voice"
-- ahh Chrissss, I sssseem to have dropped my T-sssssquare --- would you be a good young architect and bend over and pick it up for me? yeahh, that'sss it. Thank you very much"
Whenever I see this thread title, the image i get is of an office run by men who want young women to stare at all day. guess it is what i have seen out there. I always remember this incident at the office where a very beautiful interior designer, who was replacing paper on the printer, decided to bend over to do this, only thing was that the VP's office was right behind her, and his office walls are all clear glass. I do remember one architect near retirement age who, by the time I met him he was pretty sick and tired of architecture drafting, he decided to call it quits and retired. He was still in good shape and could have kept on going, but I think you can only draw so many sets before u lose your mind who knows. Another older architect was actually retired, but he worked part time for an office, he was a valuable resource for everyone, only worked until about 11 or 12.
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