After lurking a considerable bit, it seems that all I can find is people complaining about how bad the field of Architecture is right now. I will be majoring in Architecture next Fall and this has lead me to doubt this decision.
Should I really reconsider or is this just people blowing off steam?
By the time you finish school, the economic climate will be different and could be significantly better. If you're flexible about where to live and play your cards right, I think you can get by. Try to keep your debt as low as possible and save up money for the bad times, so you have some flexibility when the economy takes another nose dive.
Also, try to get as much real work experience as you can. It seems like the initial hump to get over is about 5 years work experience. Not that there are ever any guarantees. The profession is about a lot more than what you learn in design studio. It's also about who you know, your ability to find clients, salesmanship, being able to actually put together a good construction doc set (something that takes years to learn), construction admin, hiring the right consultants, project management, etc. I dunno, I could be completely wrong, as evidenced by the new thread about the guy w/ 8 years experience that is TOO experienced.
Even after you become competent with a few of those skill sets, you're still at risk of getting laid-off if you don't have the skill set needed at that exact moment, i.e. if the firm needs marketing people and you're a Construction doc set kinda guy, or if they need people to crank out specs and all you can do it Maya. It is a pretty tough profession, but there are some bright spots in the world.
i don't think there's an answer to this, really, notethan.
for those of us who have bought in, there's nothing we'd rather do, nothing we feel we could do, besides architecture.
for some it flat out doesn't work - whether for economic, personal, or other reasons.
even if it doesn't work, though, foundational design education is transformative and can be an amazing springboard for other directions. don't be afraid to start!
Steven, one comment there... I get frustrated with this perception that if it doesn't work out (even for a time!) that means you weren't passionate enough. I know plenty of architects working in other fields right now who still feel there is "nothing they'd rather do, nothing they could do, besides architecture." Unfortunately if the job isn't there, the job isn't there - you don't always have a choice - regardless of passion.
NotEthan, the field of architecture is terrible right now. As is the economy as a whole, but especially the construction and real estate worlds, within which architecture lies.
But the economy is a changing thing, as is the profession. By the time you graduate it might be better, it might not be. No college degree guarantees work, no matter the major.
As STeven said, an undergraduate degree with an emphasis on design can lead to all kinds of choices later. It's a fun but very rigorous major.
And as intotheloop said: keep your debt low! You absolutely will NOT graduate into a high paying job in architecture, and a high student loan debt will cripple you, no matter what kinds of promises the recruiting college makes about our field.
We have no way of evaluating this decision for you. First of all, it is an extremely personal choice and secondly, everyone has his/her own idiosyncratic pecularities of situation that affects his/her life choices - not only have you not elaborated on any of these, but there's no way we could know your life better than you anyway.
That said - personally, and in a general sense (not just with respect to my architecture degree), i regret having taken on the debt I did. I don't regret my degree, or my professional history, or anything else - even in the tough times, I love practicing architecture - but if I were counseling a young student right now, the #1 thing I would say is avoid student loan debt. Go to school as cheaply as humanly possible. Debt severely restricts your choices later in life. It's not about the payments, or the total amount I will eventually pay off - it's about the fact that while everyone around me is buying houses, going on ski vacations, having kids, etcetera - I am still forced to live in rented homes, have a boring life, etcetera because I am chained to my debt. This means I can't apply for crazy fun design fellowship positions, because they don't pay enough to cover my monthly loan amounts. I can't go work abroad for awhile. I can't take a crap job at the firm I REALLY like - I have to take a better-paying job at a crap firm. And so on and so forth.
So while it's hard to say whether you should go into architecture or not - I CAN say that whatever you do, DO IT WITHOUT GARNERING STUDENT LOAN DEBT.
To be explicit: I think any debt over about 25k is very hard to pay off in our field. Will restrict your freedoms for 20 years. Do you want to wait till you're 42 to buy a house? No.
Donna - i have to say, an undergraduate degree in design is not really that versatile. i think we fool ourselves into thinking design is somehow transferrable to other disciplines.
with an undergrad design degree, he would NOT be eligible to go to med school. he COULD go to law school (but that's almost as bad as arch school), and the competition would be STIFF. he would most likely not get into b-school, and could NOT get into any other science discipline (PhD, Psy-D, etc.). he could not go to accounting school, could not go to dental school, could not go to vet school, engineering school, nursing school, etc. the only way he could pursue most of these options is to get a SECOND degree (post-bac). from my own experience, i do not find a design degree to be valued very highly OUTSIDE of design.
but more importantly, it might be a black mark for other JOBS, too. for instance, if he were to try and get a job with a carpenter, the carpenter will most likely think he'd "jump back to design" when things improved, and is thus not worth the investment. i hear the same story for people with JD's all the time. i think a design degree is almost useless when it comes to doing anyhing BUT design. so choose with caution.
that being said, if you do see yourself ONLY being a designer, that is tough to fight. although it is good to educate yourself, this topic HAS been beaten to death (like creativity expert alluded to), so check the forum. these threads tend to get pretty negative (i know i have been the culprit in some cases).
is it possible to get an accredited architecture degree with no debt that is respected enough to actually GET a job right now, manta? that is the irony i see. if you go to a good school, you most likely have BIG debt, but are more likely to have a job to pay it back...but if you go to a lesser school and come out with no debt, it is more difficult to pay for other things like eating! i wish educational reform included re-visiting the debt issues of American students....
You just enrolled in college and like most kids out of high school you have been told you are talented, smart, blah blah blah
First off everyone is told this, so where are all the worthless dumbasses?
College is really just 4 years of keg fests and avoiding being challenged by real world problems, hence the union electrician will make more than you when you get out of school.
Only the best succeed and becoming the best is a hard road of getting your ass kicked.
USMC breaks the enlisties down both physically and mentally before they are trained into fighting machines.
Most architects are too much of premadonnas or too damn sensitive to take on criticism about how useless and irrelvant they may be to the industry known as construction.
First off admit the fact you suck and the AIA and your schools delusion of architectures role in the industry is bull shit.
Made 6 digits in the recession after working for free in boomtime.
Good luck and remember there is always someone better than you.
the education is transformative, and if you think of education as an end in itself, an architectural education is a more than worthwhile investment.
but as far as the profession goes, i would have to say that yes, it is that bad. and it's not all about the economy, or about jobs. there are structural problems with this profession that it would take a very long time to fix, if it is possible at all.i graduated ten years ago, and i don't remember a time when there wasn't some kind of recession. (i heard a rumor that there was some sort of boom during the couple of years i was in grad school, but i never saw even a bit of it.)
the main problem, in my opinion, is that even for the most dedicated, the rewards often don't match the outlay. to achieve the kind of middle-class stability my parents had, it's not uncommon to have to put in ten years as an underpaid peon working 60-hr weeks and seriously lower your standards and expectations for what you want in life. and then to get to the end of that, look around, and see that your friends in other professions are doing better than you without having ever had to do that, and enjoying themselves more.
the advice i would give starting out is that in order to do well in this field, even marginally so, you should know that you cannot depend on only the skills you learn in school...you will need a complex skill set that includes flexible and entrepreneurial thinking and the ability to cross disciplines (be willing to teach, write, build good business skills). you will have to scramble, and you really have to love it to put up with all the shit.
the 'profession' of architecture is kind of a myth. it depends on a large underclass of underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated young professionals, many of whom have impressive credentials and specialized skills, and many of whom grow old without substantially advancing. a good analogy might be to the current state of academia...a few people at the top do very well, but then there are all the adjuncts working really hard to squeak by.
this may sound bleak, but it is meant as a constructive warning. anyone who contributes to this forum is probably interested and invested in improving the situation. i do love the work, but at this point in my life, i wish it wasn't so damned hard to get to it.
It is worse, far worse than you could possible ever imagine
Leave it, before you sink money into it. It wasn't particularly great in great times, now it is just a 'myth', as elinor puts it.
I would go farther and say that it isn't, necessarily, the 'best' that succeed (in any profession). For one, success is subjective, and two there are too many other factors sucks as luck, personal resources, etc. Those intangibles are far more unreasonable in architecture.
people go into all sorts of fields knowing it will be hard to succeed...like painting, or dance, or working for non-profits.
the real killer in architecture is that the satisfaction of doing engaging and creative work is often missing once you're out there working. and if you are lucky enough to work for someone who is doing good work, you often have to pay a premium for that, either by working double-time and giving up your free time/personal life, working for extremely low pay, or working for free.
it is somewhat better when you're out on your own. given the idp/licensing requirements, though, you will be working for others for at least several years after graduation.
Licensure and IDP are part of the problem. One reason I left the profession early on is that I wanted my own business. If there was more encouragement for entrepreneurship in architecture I think you would find more innovation, more celebration for experimentation (not in the superficial world of pretty diagrams and theoretical discourse, but in the business 'how do we make it better' side of things).
You would also find young, talented, ambitious kids making things happen and making a lot of money doing what they are passionate about. Sadly, that is all pretty much killed with the equalization that is in place now, which, imho, reduces most to the lowest common denominator (back to the 'why do architects make little' thread ;-) ).
NE - I was exaggerating to make a point, more or less, but yeah, that's kinda how I felt when I saw how the real world really works.
You can be happy. I truly enjoy my work (the economy not with standing). You just have to take a step back, a deep breath and figure out what you need to be happy.
Like Donna said, It’s exactly like this in this EVERY major across the country. If you’re starting next fall, take a look at the people around you because by the time you finish the program, those students will not be graduating with you for whatever reason (disinterests in the program/lack of funds/family problems/bullies/job opportunities). Several people branch off to do other things (good or bad) whether it’s still architecturally related. At this point, it’s a risk you gotta take. Go ahead and take the red pill where you stay in Wonderland and go see how deep the rabbit hole goes. But know this, you will definitely contribute your complaints about the field in the near future.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with most of the responses already posted. In particular, elinor's comment about structural problems in the profession is dead on. I am one of the people who thought I could not possibly do anything else. All I ever wanted to be was an architect...and I loved the work, even all of the stuff that comes after school. By most measures, I was even reasonably successful. But I had to finally make a decision to take care of my family. The level of compensation in this profession simply does not match the effort required or the investment made. And I was one of the lucky ones coming out of college with no debt whatsoever. It was still a struggle to get ahead. With any significant debt, I would never have made it. I am also fortunate in that I was able to find a job still very much involved in the profession, but with significantly better compensation right out of the gate, and almost unlimited potential. I've said in numerous posts before that it's not all about the money, but at some point in your life (as others have said above), you find that you want to be able to provide for a family, own a house or at least rent a nice place, and be able to take the family on a nice vacation once in awhile. If you look around, you see far too few architects able to do that.
Regarding whether it is possible to get an accredited degree somewhere without going into unbelievable debt...and still being able to find a decent job...I would say it is definitely possible. I think there is far too much emphasis on the perception that you need an Ivy League degree (or some other top ten school) in order to make it in this profession. Frankly, I went to a large state school. Several of the graduates from that program landed jobs with big name starchitect firms. Your portfolio means MUCH more than what school you attended. And, later, as a practicing professional, I interviewed and hired (or not) many candidates. Some of them came from big name schools and some did not. I'm not knocking the big name programs. I'm just cautioning about the amount of debt you acrue to get a degree from any school.
The situation is really bad, but I wouldn't exggerate as if Architecture itself as a profession is inappropriate in the contemporary society.
Before blaming our industry and education system in an easy way, we have to take more consideration about this situation.
Those who fail are the Egocentric contemporary leading architects, and the schools that have served for them.
Don't make their failure into others' responsiblity.
It's really a shame that REX blamed for the current education system, into which He himself has contributed to lead, doesn't work for their business.
It's time for us, as a new generation, to say "Forget Rem Koolhaas", just like Rem's kids proclaimed "Forget Baudraillard", and "Forget Manhattanism" in order to survive.
Their failure is so obvious in a practical level and in a philosophical level that we don't need to waste time to admit that any more.
NotEthan, if you describe what you expect out of a career in architecture, maybe we can help you determine if that is realistic, and how to get where you want to go if it is realistic. Then maybe you can proceed with some confidence.
As for my experience:
It wasn't the overtime and long hours, it was the constant misjudging of the scope, the schedule, or the fee and then having to figure out how to complete the job without losing any more money than it had to, which meant putting in extra time on a project and then pretending you didn't.
It wasn't the lack of potentially cool projects, any project can be cool, it is the city planner that railroads you by demanding gable roofs on the building in exchange for not stalling your project indefinetely, even when said city planner has no design review authority, they just like gable roofs and want to see more of them the their city because everyone knows gable roofs increase property values.
It isn't the contractors always trying to change what you spent a lot of time and effort developing, it is that they do it behind your back with YOUR client, and sometimes it is too late before you find out and then you have to adjust YOUR work for his modifications.
It isn't having to sit for a series of exams which cost a lot of money and time, it is that the exams are relatively poor determinates of who should be an architect and who shouldn't. Besides, not all architects need a license given the nature of the work and firm structures, but unless you want to be called an Intern for the rest of your life, you gotta do it.
It isn't having to jump through the hoops of IDP, it is that it is very easy to cheat and many do cheat and it doesn't really matter anyways and you can easily fall behind your peers if you don't cheat and actually try to fulfill all the requirements.
It isn't that the industry is highly volatile and cyclical, it is that you can expect to be laid off for approximately 1/4 of your career.
It isn't the mediocre salary and lack of perks that one associates with a professional career, it is trying to buy a house and having the lender laugh at you when you tell them your income "I thought you said you were an architect? Ha ha, you must not be a very good one if you are only making $56k!"
It isn't that I couldn't be a successful architect, it is that I can be more successful doing almost anything else with significantly less effort.
syp, i respectfully disagree. there are many criticisms you can level at rem, but one thing he and OMA have done very successfully is allow young people who work there to have a huge impact on the work they produce. you can probably say they use/take advantage of the talent, but ex-OMA employees seem to me more empowered to practice independently on a global level than the average architect 4-5 years out of school.
this is way more than i can say for most standard american corporate/production/'design' firms, who treat young employees like they're completely useless for the first, oh, 20 years or so.
if i had my way, i'd wipe all those conglomerate firms out of existence. imagine how much work that would leave for the rest of us...
Nicely summarized Strawberry.
I dont work in traditional architecture, but alot of the architects I speak to are frustrated, unhappy and have no idea what to do about it.
Construction and real estate industry - architecture is not outside of this but is merely here to serve. Sure a little art gets mixed in there, but when art is a building its in the construction and real estate industry. Art can be hard to build and can sell well. (Note: this is why its a rich kids hobby, case and point philip johnson)
Elinor hit it on the money, the whole thing is structurally FUBAR. And its even more fucked up that almost everyone knows this, even Prince Ramus who teaches the irrelevant to the irrelevant clearly knows this.
Best advise is architecture just about like everything else requires work and more work and more work. This whole internet make a quick million is not the really world for 99 percent of the population.
Some people are working 3 jobs sleeping 3 hrs a night doing absolutely nothing great (retail and factory), I will take architecture any day...NotEthan clearly you knows this.
Apparently there is this italian proverb I am now a fan of: Four things to do in your life - get married, have kids, build a house and plant a tree. Only have the house left.
The damn i-phone facebook generation if lucky will plant a tree as I sale them dreams of hope for 20 bucks a pop and one day when they check out for a bit and learn about silence and self reflection they will realize they have pissed their whole life away constantly expecting great gifts for just existing and what thinking out loud - woooweee aint you the most precious bit of hot air ever, you deserve a cookie and a hug you fat bastard, have some more ice cream as kids starve all over the world and this country.
Actually I am not that old...just not that selfish and clueless..
NotEthan in short an artist can paint a painting in 5 minutes, and architect can get a building built in a few years, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work.
I don't regret my degree in architecture, but I often wonder what would have happened if I studied:
Entreprenuership
Engineering
Finance
Business
Education
International Relations
Psychology
Agriculture
I dont regret doing architecture or being in the general field for one minute. I have done many things in the profession, and there are many more things to do.
I have never been a service oriented person - I am not a member of any organisation, not registered, no hours logged, I dont go along to talks and get little certificates.
Outside of work I dont associate with architects. most of my friends are in communication, marketing, business and entrpreneurship.
The things arch school teaches you is confidence - arguing your ideas, and working your absolute arse off. Before arch school I would be terrified of public speaking or even expressing an opinion. Now it is second nature.
One thing I am good at doing is taking risks - arguably not as often as I would like. This is far more valuable to me than working as an 'architect'.
I dont like to compromise and I dont like to regret. Unfortunately, the economy has delayed some of my plans, but not for much longer.
My point is, dont think that your future is mapped out for you and ready to occupy. Be the driving force in your own career and be a critical thinker and self aware.
sorry, manta. i wouldn't say that architecture not working is because of a lack of passion. i thought i allowed for (i.e., meant to allow for) a lot of potential reasons why goals change and trajectories shift.
but...
just to give notethan a little bit of hope in the midst of all of the hand-wringing: it is not only possible but (from my point-of-view) common that you could have a good career in architecture in which you get to do things you like and pursue your interests and get remunerated in a fair way. crisis happens, but good projects happen, too.
and, though it sounds goopy, there is something truly inexplicably great about walking through a project of which you're proud - no matter the size of your role. whatever heartache it took to get there, whatever fights about money, materials, details, or stakeholder politics you had to endure - a successful project is an unparalleled joy. so....
I am with Strawbeary - I do not regret my education.
HOWEVER, I do think that having to get a masters on top of a bachelor (gotta have a professional degree to be licensed) was nothing more than experimenting.
What I would have done differently:
I would have gotten a MBA, most likely in real estate development, but any business knowledge is a good thing (that's how the world works, like it or not). I got my minor, but that's really not much.
Overall, I would have just rounded out the creative exploration with some more practical knowledge. Which, surprisingly, can be incredibly fulfilling.
I am with diabase, too. I have never liked authority, never liked being told what to do and never wanted to wait or rely on anyone else to hand me something.
Architecture education teaches you to think, creatively, and solve problems. Something many educations don't (although an MBA does exactly that, why they aren't combined regularly is beyond me).
I, too, have plans that have stalled because of this economy and am also continuing to push them farther.
Your future really is in your own hands. You can shape it into something that is fulfilling, for you.
I am with Strawbeary - I do not regret my education.
HOWEVER, I do think that having to get a masters on top of a bachelor (gotta have a professional degree to be licensed) was nothing more than experimenting.
What I would have done differently:
I would have gotten a MBA, most likely in real estate development, but any business knowledge is a good thing (that's how the world works, like it or not). I got my minor, but that's really not much.
Overall, I would have just rounded out the creative exploration with some more practical knowledge. Which, surprisingly, can be incredibly fulfilling.
I am with diabase, too. I have never liked authority, never liked being told what to do and never wanted to wait or rely on anyone else to hand me something.
Architecture education teaches you to think, creatively, and solve problems. Something many educations don't (although an MBA does exactly that, why they aren't combined regularly is beyond me).
I, too, have plans that have stalled because of this economy and am also continuing to push them farther.
Your future really is in your own hands. You can shape it into something that is fulfilling, for you.
Even during the really good times, archinect was full of people complaining about the low pay in architecture. This just seems to be a general theme around here.
I agree that many architects are underpaid. It would be difficult to support a family on one architect's income in a high cost city. However, this is true for many many other jobs as well. I feel extremely lucky to have a professional job that I (sometimes) enjoy and that pays an above average salary. Sure, I make less than a lawyer, but I didn't want to be a lawyer.
dude don't give up already...Steven Ward has a point.
Even in the beginning where I didn't build the bathroom I was pissing in, Olive Garden (wooohooo), i flushed the wall mounted toilet and told my father a quick history about the toilet and the savings in gallons per flush, etc...
I'm not giving up but I am considering all my options and making sure that this is something I want to do. I suspect that I will end up in Architecture...
I second that about philosophy. The only things you can do with it is law and teaching which both sound pretty terrible to me...
I'd like to be a psychologist/therapist. But I think if I hadn't been to architecture school, I wouldn't be as good as I am now at listening to people and hearing what they mean not what they say.
DS, I moved to the owner side of the business. I manage the design/construction for an institutional owner. I hire and work with multiple architects and contractors doing all kinds of renovation and new building work, and master-planning. The project types include offices, research laboratories, residential (multi-family), food service, athletic facilities and performance spaces. Thankfully, I have found this to be very fulfilling. I am immersed in design every day, although rarely doing the actual design. I was worried beyond belief at making the switch from traditional practice in a well-regarded firm, but have found that all of those skills learned over 25 years of practice have served me very well in my new role. The compensation and benefits, not to mention the respect, that came with the new role have been staggering compared to what I left. My colleagues at my former firm, most of whom are extremely talented and dedicated, are now working on reduced salaries and furlough days. They tell me I was brilliant for making the move that I made before the recession hit. I tell them I was just lucky in my timing...I didn't see this coming any more than anyone else did. I still love architecture and am so very thankful that I found a position allowing me to do almost exactly what I was doing in practice, but be compensated in a manner allowing me to provide for my family in a reasonable manner.
notethan, if you do decide to go to architecture school, the most valuable measures you could take to ensure employment post-graduation is to learn MANDARIN, become an expert in BIM (building information modeling), and secure a girlfriend (or boyfriend) with a seven-figure trust fund. Also, be damn sure that you secure summer internships after you're third and fourth years. The only people from my graduating class that are employed (4 out of 92, from a top ten* state university) had internships where they were able to log valuable hours working on construction documents. The most important question to ask yourself is: am i the type of person who considers my career to be something I do as a means to an end, or as end in and of itself.
*according to Design Intelligence rankings. These are volatile and biased, and not to be trusted.
p.s. I graduated with the highest GPA in my class (another system of evaluation that is not to be trusted), and I work as an assistant manager for a retail chain. And it is far worse than your dad (bless his soul) let on. If i did not have debt, I would flee to a remote island and find a cave dwelling near a grove of bananas.
I was laid off from a Los Angeles firm in sept 09, then I started working for a architect in Hollywood for 6 months. He pasted away last sept. But I send resume after resume with no luck.
Well I had some luck last November I interviewed at Gehry Partners, but I screwed up in the interview. I was so nervous and just not in the game.
So now I'm just thinking of giving up on the profession I loved since I was 13, and just to to a technical school for X-ray technician. I don't know I'm just lost right now, this sucks.
Feb 1, 11 5:45 am ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
Is it really that bad?
After lurking a considerable bit, it seems that all I can find is people complaining about how bad the field of Architecture is right now. I will be majoring in Architecture next Fall and this has lead me to doubt this decision.
Should I really reconsider or is this just people blowing off steam?
Yes - it really is as bad as it seems.
By the time you finish school, the economic climate will be different and could be significantly better. If you're flexible about where to live and play your cards right, I think you can get by. Try to keep your debt as low as possible and save up money for the bad times, so you have some flexibility when the economy takes another nose dive.
Also, try to get as much real work experience as you can. It seems like the initial hump to get over is about 5 years work experience. Not that there are ever any guarantees. The profession is about a lot more than what you learn in design studio. It's also about who you know, your ability to find clients, salesmanship, being able to actually put together a good construction doc set (something that takes years to learn), construction admin, hiring the right consultants, project management, etc. I dunno, I could be completely wrong, as evidenced by the new thread about the guy w/ 8 years experience that is TOO experienced.
Even after you become competent with a few of those skill sets, you're still at risk of getting laid-off if you don't have the skill set needed at that exact moment, i.e. if the firm needs marketing people and you're a Construction doc set kinda guy, or if they need people to crank out specs and all you can do it Maya. It is a pretty tough profession, but there are some bright spots in the world.
i don't think there's an answer to this, really, notethan.
for those of us who have bought in, there's nothing we'd rather do, nothing we feel we could do, besides architecture.
for some it flat out doesn't work - whether for economic, personal, or other reasons.
even if it doesn't work, though, foundational design education is transformative and can be an amazing springboard for other directions. don't be afraid to start!
oh no here we go again,
Well for one, Neo, you need to ask yourself why you want to be an architect?
It may sound mean for me to say it no things are not really bad. Now go to sleep, while I read you another bedtime story.
Steven, one comment there... I get frustrated with this perception that if it doesn't work out (even for a time!) that means you weren't passionate enough. I know plenty of architects working in other fields right now who still feel there is "nothing they'd rather do, nothing they could do, besides architecture." Unfortunately if the job isn't there, the job isn't there - you don't always have a choice - regardless of passion.
NotEthan, the field of architecture is terrible right now. As is the economy as a whole, but especially the construction and real estate worlds, within which architecture lies.
But the economy is a changing thing, as is the profession. By the time you graduate it might be better, it might not be. No college degree guarantees work, no matter the major.
As STeven said, an undergraduate degree with an emphasis on design can lead to all kinds of choices later. It's a fun but very rigorous major.
And as intotheloop said: keep your debt low! You absolutely will NOT graduate into a high paying job in architecture, and a high student loan debt will cripple you, no matter what kinds of promises the recruiting college makes about our field.
We have no way of evaluating this decision for you. First of all, it is an extremely personal choice and secondly, everyone has his/her own idiosyncratic pecularities of situation that affects his/her life choices - not only have you not elaborated on any of these, but there's no way we could know your life better than you anyway.
That said - personally, and in a general sense (not just with respect to my architecture degree), i regret having taken on the debt I did. I don't regret my degree, or my professional history, or anything else - even in the tough times, I love practicing architecture - but if I were counseling a young student right now, the #1 thing I would say is avoid student loan debt. Go to school as cheaply as humanly possible. Debt severely restricts your choices later in life. It's not about the payments, or the total amount I will eventually pay off - it's about the fact that while everyone around me is buying houses, going on ski vacations, having kids, etcetera - I am still forced to live in rented homes, have a boring life, etcetera because I am chained to my debt. This means I can't apply for crazy fun design fellowship positions, because they don't pay enough to cover my monthly loan amounts. I can't go work abroad for awhile. I can't take a crap job at the firm I REALLY like - I have to take a better-paying job at a crap firm. And so on and so forth.
So while it's hard to say whether you should go into architecture or not - I CAN say that whatever you do, DO IT WITHOUT GARNERING STUDENT LOAN DEBT.
To be explicit: I think any debt over about 25k is very hard to pay off in our field. Will restrict your freedoms for 20 years. Do you want to wait till you're 42 to buy a house? No.
Donna - i have to say, an undergraduate degree in design is not really that versatile. i think we fool ourselves into thinking design is somehow transferrable to other disciplines.
with an undergrad design degree, he would NOT be eligible to go to med school. he COULD go to law school (but that's almost as bad as arch school), and the competition would be STIFF. he would most likely not get into b-school, and could NOT get into any other science discipline (PhD, Psy-D, etc.). he could not go to accounting school, could not go to dental school, could not go to vet school, engineering school, nursing school, etc. the only way he could pursue most of these options is to get a SECOND degree (post-bac). from my own experience, i do not find a design degree to be valued very highly OUTSIDE of design.
but more importantly, it might be a black mark for other JOBS, too. for instance, if he were to try and get a job with a carpenter, the carpenter will most likely think he'd "jump back to design" when things improved, and is thus not worth the investment. i hear the same story for people with JD's all the time. i think a design degree is almost useless when it comes to doing anyhing BUT design. so choose with caution.
that being said, if you do see yourself ONLY being a designer, that is tough to fight. although it is good to educate yourself, this topic HAS been beaten to death (like creativity expert alluded to), so check the forum. these threads tend to get pretty negative (i know i have been the culprit in some cases).
is it possible to get an accredited architecture degree with no debt that is respected enough to actually GET a job right now, manta? that is the irony i see. if you go to a good school, you most likely have BIG debt, but are more likely to have a job to pay it back...but if you go to a lesser school and come out with no debt, it is more difficult to pay for other things like eating! i wish educational reform included re-visiting the debt issues of American students....
You just enrolled in college and like most kids out of high school you have been told you are talented, smart, blah blah blah
First off everyone is told this, so where are all the worthless dumbasses?
College is really just 4 years of keg fests and avoiding being challenged by real world problems, hence the union electrician will make more than you when you get out of school.
Only the best succeed and becoming the best is a hard road of getting your ass kicked.
USMC breaks the enlisties down both physically and mentally before they are trained into fighting machines.
Most architects are too much of premadonnas or too damn sensitive to take on criticism about how useless and irrelvant they may be to the industry known as construction.
First off admit the fact you suck and the AIA and your schools delusion of architectures role in the industry is bull shit.
Made 6 digits in the recession after working for free in boomtime.
Good luck and remember there is always someone better than you.
the education is transformative, and if you think of education as an end in itself, an architectural education is a more than worthwhile investment.
but as far as the profession goes, i would have to say that yes, it is that bad. and it's not all about the economy, or about jobs. there are structural problems with this profession that it would take a very long time to fix, if it is possible at all.i graduated ten years ago, and i don't remember a time when there wasn't some kind of recession. (i heard a rumor that there was some sort of boom during the couple of years i was in grad school, but i never saw even a bit of it.)
the main problem, in my opinion, is that even for the most dedicated, the rewards often don't match the outlay. to achieve the kind of middle-class stability my parents had, it's not uncommon to have to put in ten years as an underpaid peon working 60-hr weeks and seriously lower your standards and expectations for what you want in life. and then to get to the end of that, look around, and see that your friends in other professions are doing better than you without having ever had to do that, and enjoying themselves more.
the advice i would give starting out is that in order to do well in this field, even marginally so, you should know that you cannot depend on only the skills you learn in school...you will need a complex skill set that includes flexible and entrepreneurial thinking and the ability to cross disciplines (be willing to teach, write, build good business skills). you will have to scramble, and you really have to love it to put up with all the shit.
the 'profession' of architecture is kind of a myth. it depends on a large underclass of underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated young professionals, many of whom have impressive credentials and specialized skills, and many of whom grow old without substantially advancing. a good analogy might be to the current state of academia...a few people at the top do very well, but then there are all the adjuncts working really hard to squeak by.
this may sound bleak, but it is meant as a constructive warning. anyone who contributes to this forum is probably interested and invested in improving the situation. i do love the work, but at this point in my life, i wish it wasn't so damned hard to get to it.
olaf, i love your comments because you remind me of my dad.. :)
you have a great enthusiasm for playing the game as it is, and for winning it.
but not everyone can get so excited about making six figures doing construction......
Nice post Olaf. Couldn't have said it better.
It is worse, far worse than you could possible ever imagine
Leave it, before you sink money into it. It wasn't particularly great in great times, now it is just a 'myth', as elinor puts it.
I would go farther and say that it isn't, necessarily, the 'best' that succeed (in any profession). For one, success is subjective, and two there are too many other factors sucks as luck, personal resources, etc. Those intangibles are far more unreasonable in architecture.
people go into all sorts of fields knowing it will be hard to succeed...like painting, or dance, or working for non-profits.
the real killer in architecture is that the satisfaction of doing engaging and creative work is often missing once you're out there working. and if you are lucky enough to work for someone who is doing good work, you often have to pay a premium for that, either by working double-time and giving up your free time/personal life, working for extremely low pay, or working for free.
it is somewhat better when you're out on your own. given the idp/licensing requirements, though, you will be working for others for at least several years after graduation.
Far worse than I could ever imagine? My father works unimaginable hours in retail so we could scrape by.
Honestly, I don't think I'll ever really enjoy a job. I'm wanting to find a somewhat easy pill to swallow so I can find my happiness elsewhere.
Licensure and IDP are part of the problem. One reason I left the profession early on is that I wanted my own business. If there was more encouragement for entrepreneurship in architecture I think you would find more innovation, more celebration for experimentation (not in the superficial world of pretty diagrams and theoretical discourse, but in the business 'how do we make it better' side of things).
You would also find young, talented, ambitious kids making things happen and making a lot of money doing what they are passionate about. Sadly, that is all pretty much killed with the equalization that is in place now, which, imho, reduces most to the lowest common denominator (back to the 'why do architects make little' thread ;-) ).
NE - I was exaggerating to make a point, more or less, but yeah, that's kinda how I felt when I saw how the real world really works.
You can be happy. I truly enjoy my work (the economy not with standing). You just have to take a step back, a deep breath and figure out what you need to be happy.
Like Donna said, It’s exactly like this in this EVERY major across the country. If you’re starting next fall, take a look at the people around you because by the time you finish the program, those students will not be graduating with you for whatever reason (disinterests in the program/lack of funds/family problems/bullies/job opportunities). Several people branch off to do other things (good or bad) whether it’s still architecturally related. At this point, it’s a risk you gotta take. Go ahead and take the red pill where you stay in Wonderland and go see how deep the rabbit hole goes. But know this, you will definitely contribute your complaints about the field in the near future.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with most of the responses already posted. In particular, elinor's comment about structural problems in the profession is dead on. I am one of the people who thought I could not possibly do anything else. All I ever wanted to be was an architect...and I loved the work, even all of the stuff that comes after school. By most measures, I was even reasonably successful. But I had to finally make a decision to take care of my family. The level of compensation in this profession simply does not match the effort required or the investment made. And I was one of the lucky ones coming out of college with no debt whatsoever. It was still a struggle to get ahead. With any significant debt, I would never have made it. I am also fortunate in that I was able to find a job still very much involved in the profession, but with significantly better compensation right out of the gate, and almost unlimited potential. I've said in numerous posts before that it's not all about the money, but at some point in your life (as others have said above), you find that you want to be able to provide for a family, own a house or at least rent a nice place, and be able to take the family on a nice vacation once in awhile. If you look around, you see far too few architects able to do that.
Regarding whether it is possible to get an accredited degree somewhere without going into unbelievable debt...and still being able to find a decent job...I would say it is definitely possible. I think there is far too much emphasis on the perception that you need an Ivy League degree (or some other top ten school) in order to make it in this profession. Frankly, I went to a large state school. Several of the graduates from that program landed jobs with big name starchitect firms. Your portfolio means MUCH more than what school you attended. And, later, as a practicing professional, I interviewed and hired (or not) many candidates. Some of them came from big name schools and some did not. I'm not knocking the big name programs. I'm just cautioning about the amount of debt you acrue to get a degree from any school.
olaf design ninja,
What do you exactly designate "the industry"?
Ledoux's Eye, what field are you in now, if you don't mind explaining?
The situation is really bad, but I wouldn't exggerate as if Architecture itself as a profession is inappropriate in the contemporary society.
Before blaming our industry and education system in an easy way, we have to take more consideration about this situation.
Those who fail are the Egocentric contemporary leading architects, and the schools that have served for them.
Don't make their failure into others' responsiblity.
It's really a shame that REX blamed for the current education system, into which He himself has contributed to lead, doesn't work for their business.
It's time for us, as a new generation, to say "Forget Rem Koolhaas", just like Rem's kids proclaimed "Forget Baudraillard", and "Forget Manhattanism" in order to survive.
Their failure is so obvious in a practical level and in a philosophical level that we don't need to waste time to admit that any more.
NotEthan, if you describe what you expect out of a career in architecture, maybe we can help you determine if that is realistic, and how to get where you want to go if it is realistic. Then maybe you can proceed with some confidence.
As for my experience:
It wasn't the overtime and long hours, it was the constant misjudging of the scope, the schedule, or the fee and then having to figure out how to complete the job without losing any more money than it had to, which meant putting in extra time on a project and then pretending you didn't.
It wasn't the lack of potentially cool projects, any project can be cool, it is the city planner that railroads you by demanding gable roofs on the building in exchange for not stalling your project indefinetely, even when said city planner has no design review authority, they just like gable roofs and want to see more of them the their city because everyone knows gable roofs increase property values.
It isn't the contractors always trying to change what you spent a lot of time and effort developing, it is that they do it behind your back with YOUR client, and sometimes it is too late before you find out and then you have to adjust YOUR work for his modifications.
It isn't having to sit for a series of exams which cost a lot of money and time, it is that the exams are relatively poor determinates of who should be an architect and who shouldn't. Besides, not all architects need a license given the nature of the work and firm structures, but unless you want to be called an Intern for the rest of your life, you gotta do it.
It isn't having to jump through the hoops of IDP, it is that it is very easy to cheat and many do cheat and it doesn't really matter anyways and you can easily fall behind your peers if you don't cheat and actually try to fulfill all the requirements.
It isn't that the industry is highly volatile and cyclical, it is that you can expect to be laid off for approximately 1/4 of your career.
It isn't the mediocre salary and lack of perks that one associates with a professional career, it is trying to buy a house and having the lender laugh at you when you tell them your income "I thought you said you were an architect? Ha ha, you must not be a very good one if you are only making $56k!"
It isn't that I couldn't be a successful architect, it is that I can be more successful doing almost anything else with significantly less effort.
Can I ask a question? If we took away every starchitect/media hero and its effects, where would the profession be today?
I'd argue a whole lot worse off.
syp, i respectfully disagree. there are many criticisms you can level at rem, but one thing he and OMA have done very successfully is allow young people who work there to have a huge impact on the work they produce. you can probably say they use/take advantage of the talent, but ex-OMA employees seem to me more empowered to practice independently on a global level than the average architect 4-5 years out of school.
this is way more than i can say for most standard american corporate/production/'design' firms, who treat young employees like they're completely useless for the first, oh, 20 years or so.
if i had my way, i'd wipe all those conglomerate firms out of existence. imagine how much work that would leave for the rest of us...
Nicely summarized Strawberry.
I dont work in traditional architecture, but alot of the architects I speak to are frustrated, unhappy and have no idea what to do about it.
Elinor you father is a wise man.
Construction and real estate industry - architecture is not outside of this but is merely here to serve. Sure a little art gets mixed in there, but when art is a building its in the construction and real estate industry. Art can be hard to build and can sell well. (Note: this is why its a rich kids hobby, case and point philip johnson)
Elinor hit it on the money, the whole thing is structurally FUBAR. And its even more fucked up that almost everyone knows this, even Prince Ramus who teaches the irrelevant to the irrelevant clearly knows this.
Best advise is architecture just about like everything else requires work and more work and more work. This whole internet make a quick million is not the really world for 99 percent of the population.
Some people are working 3 jobs sleeping 3 hrs a night doing absolutely nothing great (retail and factory), I will take architecture any day...NotEthan clearly you knows this.
Apparently there is this italian proverb I am now a fan of: Four things to do in your life - get married, have kids, build a house and plant a tree. Only have the house left.
The damn i-phone facebook generation if lucky will plant a tree as I sale them dreams of hope for 20 bucks a pop and one day when they check out for a bit and learn about silence and self reflection they will realize they have pissed their whole life away constantly expecting great gifts for just existing and what thinking out loud - woooweee aint you the most precious bit of hot air ever, you deserve a cookie and a hug you fat bastard, have some more ice cream as kids starve all over the world and this country.
Actually I am not that old...just not that selfish and clueless..
NotEthan in short an artist can paint a painting in 5 minutes, and architect can get a building built in a few years, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work.
Considering Architecture was already going to make it harder for me to work and keep my scholarship, I am seriously reconsidering things.
But, I still have no idea of what else to do. Everything I would like to study would end up with me being unemployed after college.
I'm interested to hear what you architecture regretting folk would have rather majored in.
I don't regret my degree in architecture, but I often wonder what would have happened if I studied:
Entreprenuership
Engineering
Finance
Business
Education
International Relations
Psychology
Agriculture
NotEthan,
I dont regret doing architecture or being in the general field for one minute. I have done many things in the profession, and there are many more things to do.
I have never been a service oriented person - I am not a member of any organisation, not registered, no hours logged, I dont go along to talks and get little certificates.
Outside of work I dont associate with architects. most of my friends are in communication, marketing, business and entrpreneurship.
The things arch school teaches you is confidence - arguing your ideas, and working your absolute arse off. Before arch school I would be terrified of public speaking or even expressing an opinion. Now it is second nature.
One thing I am good at doing is taking risks - arguably not as often as I would like. This is far more valuable to me than working as an 'architect'.
I dont like to compromise and I dont like to regret. Unfortunately, the economy has delayed some of my plans, but not for much longer.
My point is, dont think that your future is mapped out for you and ready to occupy. Be the driving force in your own career and be a critical thinker and self aware.
sorry, manta. i wouldn't say that architecture not working is because of a lack of passion. i thought i allowed for (i.e., meant to allow for) a lot of potential reasons why goals change and trajectories shift.
but...
just to give notethan a little bit of hope in the midst of all of the hand-wringing: it is not only possible but (from my point-of-view) common that you could have a good career in architecture in which you get to do things you like and pursue your interests and get remunerated in a fair way. crisis happens, but good projects happen, too.
and, though it sounds goopy, there is something truly inexplicably great about walking through a project of which you're proud - no matter the size of your role. whatever heartache it took to get there, whatever fights about money, materials, details, or stakeholder politics you had to endure - a successful project is an unparalleled joy. so....
carry on then.
I am with Strawbeary - I do not regret my education.
HOWEVER, I do think that having to get a masters on top of a bachelor (gotta have a professional degree to be licensed) was nothing more than experimenting.
What I would have done differently:
I would have gotten a MBA, most likely in real estate development, but any business knowledge is a good thing (that's how the world works, like it or not). I got my minor, but that's really not much.
Overall, I would have just rounded out the creative exploration with some more practical knowledge. Which, surprisingly, can be incredibly fulfilling.
I am with diabase, too. I have never liked authority, never liked being told what to do and never wanted to wait or rely on anyone else to hand me something.
Architecture education teaches you to think, creatively, and solve problems. Something many educations don't (although an MBA does exactly that, why they aren't combined regularly is beyond me).
I, too, have plans that have stalled because of this economy and am also continuing to push them farther.
Your future really is in your own hands. You can shape it into something that is fulfilling, for you.
I am with Strawbeary - I do not regret my education.
HOWEVER, I do think that having to get a masters on top of a bachelor (gotta have a professional degree to be licensed) was nothing more than experimenting.
What I would have done differently:
I would have gotten a MBA, most likely in real estate development, but any business knowledge is a good thing (that's how the world works, like it or not). I got my minor, but that's really not much.
Overall, I would have just rounded out the creative exploration with some more practical knowledge. Which, surprisingly, can be incredibly fulfilling.
I am with diabase, too. I have never liked authority, never liked being told what to do and never wanted to wait or rely on anyone else to hand me something.
Architecture education teaches you to think, creatively, and solve problems. Something many educations don't (although an MBA does exactly that, why they aren't combined regularly is beyond me).
I, too, have plans that have stalled because of this economy and am also continuing to push them farther.
Your future really is in your own hands. You can shape it into something that is fulfilling, for you.
Dammit. Edit button please.
Even during the really good times, archinect was full of people complaining about the low pay in architecture. This just seems to be a general theme around here.
I agree that many architects are underpaid. It would be difficult to support a family on one architect's income in a high cost city. However, this is true for many many other jobs as well. I feel extremely lucky to have a professional job that I (sometimes) enjoy and that pays an above average salary. Sure, I make less than a lawyer, but I didn't want to be a lawyer.
philosophy - if it paid.
dude don't give up already...Steven Ward has a point.
Even in the beginning where I didn't build the bathroom I was pissing in, Olive Garden (wooohooo), i flushed the wall mounted toilet and told my father a quick history about the toilet and the savings in gallons per flush, etc...
I'm not giving up but I am considering all my options and making sure that this is something I want to do. I suspect that I will end up in Architecture...
I second that about philosophy. The only things you can do with it is law and teaching which both sound pretty terrible to me...
I'd like to be a psychologist/therapist. But I think if I hadn't been to architecture school, I wouldn't be as good as I am now at listening to people and hearing what they mean not what they say.
DS, I moved to the owner side of the business. I manage the design/construction for an institutional owner. I hire and work with multiple architects and contractors doing all kinds of renovation and new building work, and master-planning. The project types include offices, research laboratories, residential (multi-family), food service, athletic facilities and performance spaces. Thankfully, I have found this to be very fulfilling. I am immersed in design every day, although rarely doing the actual design. I was worried beyond belief at making the switch from traditional practice in a well-regarded firm, but have found that all of those skills learned over 25 years of practice have served me very well in my new role. The compensation and benefits, not to mention the respect, that came with the new role have been staggering compared to what I left. My colleagues at my former firm, most of whom are extremely talented and dedicated, are now working on reduced salaries and furlough days. They tell me I was brilliant for making the move that I made before the recession hit. I tell them I was just lucky in my timing...I didn't see this coming any more than anyone else did. I still love architecture and am so very thankful that I found a position allowing me to do almost exactly what I was doing in practice, but be compensated in a manner allowing me to provide for my family in a reasonable manner.
notethan, if you do decide to go to architecture school, the most valuable measures you could take to ensure employment post-graduation is to learn MANDARIN, become an expert in BIM (building information modeling), and secure a girlfriend (or boyfriend) with a seven-figure trust fund. Also, be damn sure that you secure summer internships after you're third and fourth years. The only people from my graduating class that are employed (4 out of 92, from a top ten* state university) had internships where they were able to log valuable hours working on construction documents. The most important question to ask yourself is: am i the type of person who considers my career to be something I do as a means to an end, or as end in and of itself.
*according to Design Intelligence rankings. These are volatile and biased, and not to be trusted.
p.s. I graduated with the highest GPA in my class (another system of evaluation that is not to be trusted), and I work as an assistant manager for a retail chain. And it is far worse than your dad (bless his soul) let on. If i did not have debt, I would flee to a remote island and find a cave dwelling near a grove of bananas.
I was laid off from a Los Angeles firm in sept 09, then I started working for a architect in Hollywood for 6 months. He pasted away last sept. But I send resume after resume with no luck.
Well I had some luck last November I interviewed at Gehry Partners, but I screwed up in the interview. I was so nervous and just not in the game.
So now I'm just thinking of giving up on the profession I loved since I was 13, and just to to a technical school for X-ray technician. I don't know I'm just lost right now, this sucks.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.