Why do you hire as educators architects and designers who, in their professional practice, use unpaid interns? how are such practices consistent with the mission of educational institutions to train competent, ethical, and law-abiding professionals? And how can you support the very practices that make your graduates un-viable and irrelevant, thus degrading the very education you are providing?
Although I agree with your premise - how do you propose that a university deal with this issue? Should the hiring dean make personal visits to each firm and question every employee as to their wages? I'm serious. How can you devise a system that isn't built on hearsay?
I find it amusing how American students and architects seem all up in arms about unpaid internships (which under normal circumstances lasts probably at most 6 months), yet don't even bat an eye at tuition rates of 30k USD+ per year.
the same system(s) the AIA uses when it refuses to give awards or officer positions to firms/principals of firms known to employ unpaid interns.
if someone makes a complaint against a firm, or if a firm posts a listing for an unpaid position, it should be taken seriously and looked into by any schools employing or thinking of employing a principal of that firm.
what's so difficult about that?
workers in this profession should of course make more complaints. everyone turns a blind eye to this or treats it as accepted practice.
and oftentimes it's common knowledge within the industry. they wouldn't have to do much at all, just take a stand against it.
Since most universities are considered governmental bodies or at least answer to the Department of Education, the Department of Education could use confidential IRS information at the discretion and permission of the Secretary.
Pretty sure that kind of act would terrify most "small government" types.
honor system. if it was official university policy for all employees to observe fair and legal labor standards, the onus would be on the employees to comply.
It seems some people have found a suggestion I made earlier to be a good idea, so I'll repeat it here:
What if at every lecture at every architecture school the question of unpaid internships was raised. I think "the question" can be asked in a way that is initially at least non-confrontational. Like "Can you comment on the apparently widespread practice of unpaid internships and whether it's healthy for our profession?" with a follow-up of "Do you rely on unpaid interns?" if the speaker seems to skirt the topic.
Frankly, lots of stars get paid to speak at schools (a lot or little, depends on the speaker). Would knowing that this question was going to come up at every lecture - an organized, widespread civil action on the part of students - make those who don't pay interns reconsider their actions, or would it make them stop giving public lectures? I wonder.
elinor the language you used to pose this issue in your opening post is very good: How can schools simultaneously support the value of our skills by teaching them, then undermine that value by stating, officially or not, that those skills are not worth pay?
Athletes technically get paid generously (scholarship, room and board, fees, dining hall passes)... unless you play Women's sports. Ouch!
I don't think you can really do much about this in gesture or in language. However, one of the many pluses about professionalism and education is not treating people like criminals unless you absolutely have to.
Just like peeing in a cup or an unwarranted credit check, investigating someone's professional business either by interviewing past employees, investigating financial information or going after tax information predisposes them to an environment of fear and rapid prosecution.
Perhaps, we should draft a letter to NCARB and state licensing boards asking to amend licensing standards to include violations of labor laws are immediate grounds for revocation.
Violating the FSLA act technically is a felony. That's ground for revocation, right?
If none of us petition the boards that regulate this, they may never think it is an issue. Perhaps, the Archinect community can help draft this letter?
scholarships and room and board? that's chump change for major athletics programs which generate millions upon millions and pay for all the sports that don't make money.
If I were to offer advice to an aspiring architect: Do your own due diligence and neutralize the situation- don't pay for something that isn't worth it and don't work for free. Threat eliminated.
In many situations school credit counts as pay. Co-op programs give students the opportunity to work in an office and get credit for it - so they're paying the school to be able to work for free! But it's a completely legitimate arrangement.
As I've said on many threads on this topic: you get paid, either in academic credit or in money. This athlete discussion is off-topic.
The credit-for-work seems like an obvious solution. How about we ask schools to give a choice of theory classes or working at a firm?
That might actually help the profession overall (and would probably kill the naive idealistic idea of what it is like, which would mean kids leaving the education early on. But it would make for more valuable grads, which, theoretically, would mean they are worth more money).
GN - "don't pay for something that isn't worth it and don't work for free"
Well, then, you'd be telling almost every student not to go to college for architecture (without a free ride).
I am curious how all this works if someone "volunteers"? I mean, there are plenty that have trust funds that don't really care about $7/hr.
Really, for someone in that position (that has money already), getting the name on the resume and award winning projects under their belts is a pretty good investment (career wise). A name on a resume goes pretty far to opening doors.
when i first graduated, i went to work in a steel shop, just for the experience, in ithaca, ny
anyway, i worked on some custom steel rails and architectural features for a house designed by a young guy my age right out of Cornell's BArch
his parents had land or bought land pretty close to the university and gave him a budget and he was designing a house and having it built and it would kick off his portfolio of built work
there is a probably a good chance someone like that is not worried about student loans and trying to get that first full-time job making a decent living wage
if he went to work for free for a starchitect for a year or so, maybe he would not even care about the money, unless maybe for the principle of the matter --- but if i were in his position, i might not care either, and i might even decide that it was in fact the better financial and career move overall so long as i could afford the short-term lack of income
i actually have no problem with this. it is a reality that I and many others have to compete with people with superior resources --- it is just another design problem, nothing more
my letters to my state boards urging them to take an official position on this are in progress. i am considering letters to my alma maters as well.
my colleagues and i have also been politely responding to listings for unpaid interns on job boards, referring them do the department of labor unpaid internship guidelines webpage.
i'm not sure if archinect has an official position on their job board, but maybe there could be a list of guidelines for job posters warning against unlawful internships?
i imagine that for every few unpaid internships that are eliminated, these offices would have to actually HIRE someone....
trace and jmanganelli - the fact that some can afford to take a position at no pay is a major part of the problem. their economic position gives them an opportunity to build experience someone of less means can't. happens, but it shouldn't. if firms didn't take work for free, if every position was paid, people of modest means would have just as much opportunity to pursue these resume-building situations.
the credit-for-work has another benefit - at least when handled as a coop like at some schools. not only do you get the credit but you're still reaping the benefits of your financial aid, some of which isn't just for tuition but also room and board. so you could work for kickassnyc, get credit, and have the means to support yourself (potentially).
i posted this on TC but think it's relevant here as well:
it goes back to the age-old dilemma for anyone starting out, you need experience to get a job, but can't get experience without having had a job. what these offices are doing is essentially 'charging admission' to the profession by asking entry-level aspiring architects to 'pay' for their experience with free labor. how is that not a form of extortion? ...and what other professions do this? in every profession i can think of, it's customary to train employees...and to pay them during the training period.
those who can afford it, get in. those who can't, don't. f***ed up.
...and needless to say, the tuition and time commitment made for an architectural education, in addition to the crazy requirements for licensure, should be considered MORE THAN ENOUGH of an 'admission charge'. we don't need (can't afford, can't take) anymore.
The notion of volunteering because you want to learn is all well and good if you're the volunteer - but the DoJ standards specifically say that the office at which you "volunteer" cannot take an economic benefit from your work. So even if you want to volunteer, the firm is not allowed to let you volunteer IF the work you do leads in any way to compensation to the firm/. They can't bill you out, in other words, and they can't have you do work that they would typically need to hire someone to do INCLUDING answering phones/making coffee/cleaning out files.
Excellent, samspade, that you are being active on this. My ProPrac class this week promises to be lively as this whole topic is what we're discussing after having spent last week on professional ethics!
Elinor - really interesting idea. I wonder if, in attacking this issue, it's not better to begin where it really hurts and go for the publishing empires.
For example, Bob Ivy (ex editor at Record) has taken over as EVP of the AIA. He should, in helping extend the AIA's official position, work with you (or whomever wants to spearhead this) to put some pressure back on Hanley Wood (the now official AIA publisher) and McGraw Hill (his ex employer) to secure their commitment. All both organizations would need to do is have a one or two sentence rider inserted into their publication contracts. As part of their masthead, they can insert a note that firms appearing have agreed to this policy and if anyone knows of a documented instance of firms violating it, please notify the magazine. You could, if possible, get this extended to the major publishing houses domestically (foreign publishers, frankly, probably don't care about abuses of domestic hiring laws).
Targeting the schools are great if you can get them to terminate teaching contracts or it affects their ability to get teaching positions. Otherwise, lectures, etc. are just burnishers - they don't lead to work nearly as often as being published.
It is funny that we are having a discussion on how firms should be punished for committing a felony (unpaid labor) You would think something suitably severe would already be in place. Facing a true unemployment rate of 20% it seems like now is the time to start enforcing the law. I like Uxbridges idea about license revocation.
<i>Athletes don't have to play for free and intern architects don't have to work for free. We live in a free country after all.<i/>
I really dislike the idea of unpaid internships. A 40+ a week commitment for $0 is impossible for me. The kicker is I already have pretty serious debt pursuing a B.Arch and without some recent experience on my resume it could end up being my financial armageddon :( The choice many students could end up facing is between being unable to use the degree while burdened with a huge loans or doing some free work. I have been trying to do a day of volunteering a week which I thought was different from working a full time job without pay. Sadly Donna said that volunteering is probably also against the law :( I did some building with Habitat, but last semester I was doing work/school 7 days a week so I had to stop going.
America is supposed to be the land of opportunity, but it looks the the field is severely tilted in architecture. You can't really blame the rich kids. Would you care about $9/hour if your parents put you through school and gave you some spending cash? Would you be "investing" for your future career in internships that gave you an advantage over those who are unable to work for free?
The burning questions on my mind day and night the past few semesters are:
How am I going to make my degree pay off*
What will I teach myself (that I will probably not learn in school) to ensure my success
*By pay off I mean a living wage after expenses not pay off like the lottery.
Habitat is a non-profit - so the rules about volunteering don't apply. And volunteering for charitable organizations is a great way to network, hopefully into a future job!
Here's a wacky idea: redirect 10% of the 6 billion USD that is spent monthly to fight wars abroad towards a second Works Progress Administration. This would give the nation a monthly budget of 600 million for improving domestic infrastructure (high density post-metropolitan villages, light rail public transportation, urban agriculture), a task that requires architects. Take a mere ONE PERCENT of this budget and provide it as subsidies to firms with WPA projects. That is 6 million dollars monthly. This could provide for an income for 2,000 entry level architects @ 36K/year, while providing an additional 599 million USD for investing in a sustainable future and providing good jobs to hard working americans. The soldiers that lose jobs spraying aimless bullets in the Near East can pick up shovels and pour concrete, clear innercity junkyrards and construct grey-water irrigation systems. has anybody put a copy of FDR's WPA on Obama's desk?
Dear American Schools of Architecture
Why do you hire as educators architects and designers who, in their professional practice, use unpaid interns? how are such practices consistent with the mission of educational institutions to train competent, ethical, and law-abiding professionals? And how can you support the very practices that make your graduates un-viable and irrelevant, thus degrading the very education you are providing?
at least minimum wage
Although I agree with your premise - how do you propose that a university deal with this issue? Should the hiring dean make personal visits to each firm and question every employee as to their wages? I'm serious. How can you devise a system that isn't built on hearsay?
I find it amusing how American students and architects seem all up in arms about unpaid internships (which under normal circumstances lasts probably at most 6 months), yet don't even bat an eye at tuition rates of 30k USD+ per year.
the same system(s) the AIA uses when it refuses to give awards or officer positions to firms/principals of firms known to employ unpaid interns.
if someone makes a complaint against a firm, or if a firm posts a listing for an unpaid position, it should be taken seriously and looked into by any schools employing or thinking of employing a principal of that firm.
what's so difficult about that?
workers in this profession should of course make more complaints. everyone turns a blind eye to this or treats it as accepted practice.
and oftentimes it's common knowledge within the industry. they wouldn't have to do much at all, just take a stand against it.
Since most universities are considered governmental bodies or at least answer to the Department of Education, the Department of Education could use confidential IRS information at the discretion and permission of the Secretary.
Pretty sure that kind of act would terrify most "small government" types.
honor system. if it was official university policy for all employees to observe fair and legal labor standards, the onus would be on the employees to comply.
It seems some people have found a suggestion I made earlier to be a good idea, so I'll repeat it here:
What if at every lecture at every architecture school the question of unpaid internships was raised. I think "the question" can be asked in a way that is initially at least non-confrontational. Like "Can you comment on the apparently widespread practice of unpaid internships and whether it's healthy for our profession?" with a follow-up of "Do you rely on unpaid interns?" if the speaker seems to skirt the topic.
Frankly, lots of stars get paid to speak at schools (a lot or little, depends on the speaker). Would knowing that this question was going to come up at every lecture - an organized, widespread civil action on the part of students - make those who don't pay interns reconsider their actions, or would it make them stop giving public lectures? I wonder.
elinor the language you used to pose this issue in your opening post is very good: How can schools simultaneously support the value of our skills by teaching them, then undermine that value by stating, officially or not, that those skills are not worth pay?
universities depend on unpaid labor all the time. they're called athletes.
Athletes technically get paid generously (scholarship, room and board, fees, dining hall passes)... unless you play Women's sports. Ouch!
I don't think you can really do much about this in gesture or in language. However, one of the many pluses about professionalism and education is not treating people like criminals unless you absolutely have to.
Just like peeing in a cup or an unwarranted credit check, investigating someone's professional business either by interviewing past employees, investigating financial information or going after tax information predisposes them to an environment of fear and rapid prosecution.
Perhaps, we should draft a letter to NCARB and state licensing boards asking to amend licensing standards to include violations of labor laws are immediate grounds for revocation.
Violating the FSLA act technically is a felony. That's ground for revocation, right?
If none of us petition the boards that regulate this, they may never think it is an issue. Perhaps, the Archinect community can help draft this letter?
scholarships and room and board? that's chump change for major athletics programs which generate millions upon millions and pay for all the sports that don't make money.
If I were to offer advice to an aspiring architect: Do your own due diligence and neutralize the situation- don't pay for something that isn't worth it and don't work for free. Threat eliminated.
Athletes don't have to play for free and intern architects don't have to work for free. We live in a free country after all.
In many situations school credit counts as pay. Co-op programs give students the opportunity to work in an office and get credit for it - so they're paying the school to be able to work for free! But it's a completely legitimate arrangement.
As I've said on many threads on this topic: you get paid, either in academic credit or in money. This athlete discussion is off-topic.
The credit-for-work seems like an obvious solution. How about we ask schools to give a choice of theory classes or working at a firm?
That might actually help the profession overall (and would probably kill the naive idealistic idea of what it is like, which would mean kids leaving the education early on. But it would make for more valuable grads, which, theoretically, would mean they are worth more money).
GN - "don't pay for something that isn't worth it and don't work for free"
Well, then, you'd be telling almost every student not to go to college for architecture (without a free ride).
I am curious how all this works if someone "volunteers"? I mean, there are plenty that have trust funds that don't really care about $7/hr.
Really, for someone in that position (that has money already), getting the name on the resume and award winning projects under their belts is a pretty good investment (career wise). A name on a resume goes pretty far to opening doors.
very true, trace
when i first graduated, i went to work in a steel shop, just for the experience, in ithaca, ny
anyway, i worked on some custom steel rails and architectural features for a house designed by a young guy my age right out of Cornell's BArch
his parents had land or bought land pretty close to the university and gave him a budget and he was designing a house and having it built and it would kick off his portfolio of built work
there is a probably a good chance someone like that is not worried about student loans and trying to get that first full-time job making a decent living wage
if he went to work for free for a starchitect for a year or so, maybe he would not even care about the money, unless maybe for the principle of the matter --- but if i were in his position, i might not care either, and i might even decide that it was in fact the better financial and career move overall so long as i could afford the short-term lack of income
i actually have no problem with this. it is a reality that I and many others have to compete with people with superior resources --- it is just another design problem, nothing more
my letters to my state boards urging them to take an official position on this are in progress. i am considering letters to my alma maters as well.
my colleagues and i have also been politely responding to listings for unpaid interns on job boards, referring them do the department of labor unpaid internship guidelines webpage.
i'm not sure if archinect has an official position on their job board, but maybe there could be a list of guidelines for job posters warning against unlawful internships?
i imagine that for every few unpaid internships that are eliminated, these offices would have to actually HIRE someone....
trace and jmanganelli - the fact that some can afford to take a position at no pay is a major part of the problem. their economic position gives them an opportunity to build experience someone of less means can't. happens, but it shouldn't. if firms didn't take work for free, if every position was paid, people of modest means would have just as much opportunity to pursue these resume-building situations.
the credit-for-work has another benefit - at least when handled as a coop like at some schools. not only do you get the credit but you're still reaping the benefits of your financial aid, some of which isn't just for tuition but also room and board. so you could work for kickassnyc, get credit, and have the means to support yourself (potentially).
i posted this on TC but think it's relevant here as well:
it goes back to the age-old dilemma for anyone starting out, you need experience to get a job, but can't get experience without having had a job. what these offices are doing is essentially 'charging admission' to the profession by asking entry-level aspiring architects to 'pay' for their experience with free labor. how is that not a form of extortion? ...and what other professions do this? in every profession i can think of, it's customary to train employees...and to pay them during the training period.
those who can afford it, get in. those who can't, don't. f***ed up.
...and needless to say, the tuition and time commitment made for an architectural education, in addition to the crazy requirements for licensure, should be considered MORE THAN ENOUGH of an 'admission charge'. we don't need (can't afford, can't take) anymore.
The notion of volunteering because you want to learn is all well and good if you're the volunteer - but the DoJ standards specifically say that the office at which you "volunteer" cannot take an economic benefit from your work. So even if you want to volunteer, the firm is not allowed to let you volunteer IF the work you do leads in any way to compensation to the firm/. They can't bill you out, in other words, and they can't have you do work that they would typically need to hire someone to do INCLUDING answering phones/making coffee/cleaning out files.
Excellent, samspade, that you are being active on this. My ProPrac class this week promises to be lively as this whole topic is what we're discussing after having spent last week on professional ethics!
Elinor - really interesting idea. I wonder if, in attacking this issue, it's not better to begin where it really hurts and go for the publishing empires.
For example, Bob Ivy (ex editor at Record) has taken over as EVP of the AIA. He should, in helping extend the AIA's official position, work with you (or whomever wants to spearhead this) to put some pressure back on Hanley Wood (the now official AIA publisher) and McGraw Hill (his ex employer) to secure their commitment. All both organizations would need to do is have a one or two sentence rider inserted into their publication contracts. As part of their masthead, they can insert a note that firms appearing have agreed to this policy and if anyone knows of a documented instance of firms violating it, please notify the magazine. You could, if possible, get this extended to the major publishing houses domestically (foreign publishers, frankly, probably don't care about abuses of domestic hiring laws).
Targeting the schools are great if you can get them to terminate teaching contracts or it affects their ability to get teaching positions. Otherwise, lectures, etc. are just burnishers - they don't lead to work nearly as often as being published.
It is funny that we are having a discussion on how firms should be punished for committing a felony (unpaid labor) You would think something suitably severe would already be in place. Facing a true unemployment rate of 20% it seems like now is the time to start enforcing the law. I like Uxbridges idea about license revocation.
<i>Athletes don't have to play for free and intern architects don't have to work for free. We live in a free country after all.<i/>
I really dislike the idea of unpaid internships. A 40+ a week commitment for $0 is impossible for me. The kicker is I already have pretty serious debt pursuing a B.Arch and without some recent experience on my resume it could end up being my financial armageddon :( The choice many students could end up facing is between being unable to use the degree while burdened with a huge loans or doing some free work. I have been trying to do a day of volunteering a week which I thought was different from working a full time job without pay. Sadly Donna said that volunteering is probably also against the law :( I did some building with Habitat, but last semester I was doing work/school 7 days a week so I had to stop going.
America is supposed to be the land of opportunity, but it looks the the field is severely tilted in architecture. You can't really blame the rich kids. Would you care about $9/hour if your parents put you through school and gave you some spending cash? Would you be "investing" for your future career in internships that gave you an advantage over those who are unable to work for free?
The burning questions on my mind day and night the past few semesters are:
How am I going to make my degree pay off*
What will I teach myself (that I will probably not learn in school) to ensure my success
*By pay off I mean a living wage after expenses not pay off like the lottery.
Habitat is a non-profit - so the rules about volunteering don't apply. And volunteering for charitable organizations is a great way to network, hopefully into a future job!
Here's a wacky idea: redirect 10% of the 6 billion USD that is spent monthly to fight wars abroad towards a second Works Progress Administration. This would give the nation a monthly budget of 600 million for improving domestic infrastructure (high density post-metropolitan villages, light rail public transportation, urban agriculture), a task that requires architects. Take a mere ONE PERCENT of this budget and provide it as subsidies to firms with WPA projects. That is 6 million dollars monthly. This could provide for an income for 2,000 entry level architects @ 36K/year, while providing an additional 599 million USD for investing in a sustainable future and providing good jobs to hard working americans. The soldiers that lose jobs spraying aimless bullets in the Near East can pick up shovels and pour concrete, clear innercity junkyrards and construct grey-water irrigation systems. has anybody put a copy of FDR's WPA on Obama's desk?
OR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnuJa2LT6iM&feature=related
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