Which profession is hurt most by the DIY (do it yourself) mentality?
I am going to say architecture but who knows maybe Doctors get screwed out of work by self medicators.
Between HGTV and Home Depots It seems to me everyone is an architect and think because they read code once or their cousin who claims their house renovation is to code while being completely illegal they to can do our job and therefore want to pay less...meanwhile they are lawyers who would never work for less (douche bags)
I say Engineering is safe forever due to the math thing.
Anything wood-frame is within grasp of any design enthusiast. It's easy to work cut, nail, erect. I am not sure how many architects are terribly interested in bungalow remodeling or wood deck design. Perhaps in this economy, all of them...
We will eventually run out of wood, and then we'll be using concrete and masonry for eben simplest of projects. That type of construction scares most DIYers.
So be patient for the next few decades or so.
By the way in some countries you can get medicine for the fraction of the cost of the prices found in the US.
The DIY mentality is just as destructive to society and the profession in the long run as the contemporary myth of equality.
In today's world, the generation which was wise enough to defer to the expert (such as the architect) is practically either all dead already or holed up in a nursing home somewhere.
In today's world, the average "global citizen" has been taught that if they can nail a 2x4 together, then "Yes we can".
One of the reasons I hate marxists is because they love to push the idea of democracy.
Back when the economic system was modeled on a republic, the average architect practicioner had opportunities to leverage his expertise because the larger society deferred to them in the first place.
And architects are now in an even more hopeless perdicament...because they are teaching BIM to high schoolers and convicts in the prison systems (hint: subcontractors know more than the average contemporary architect about how to build something) and marketing it as a video game that anyone with two hands and a pulse can successfully operate.
So just as Home Depot and the DIY mentality got rid of the architect in the role of master builder, so does the computer get rid of the architect as master plan producer (this was the final thing the architect had for leverage and it is gone as well, if one is honest).
And for the record I do not like it anymore than any other architect does.
But it is just the way it is. And it doesn't help that the profession, generally speaking, buys into the whole "one world", "everyone is an equal participant", "there is no such thing as superior/ inferior" moronic outlook. In fact, the reason why doctors and lawyers still make a decent income commensurate with their education and experience is because they have been so much wiser to stay away from the whole "equality" poison.
The balance of "anti-discrimination" has swung way too far to the opposite extreme of hanging innocent people from tree branches.
Now, under contemporary marxism in the west, the one who is excellent is the subject of the lynchmob's wrath.
Ever heard of Web MD? Of course patients self diagnose and self medicate! My brother is a doctor, he bitches about it all the time but he still makes 6 figures.
Ever seen the DIY legal forms? Very common and very useful.
Yeah. Quite a germane point you've made. Nice. Exactly.
But still, the medical profession has been doing an infinitely better job at keeping the average village idiot at bay*
Ahh yes...never underestimate the power of the idiocracy to fool themselves into thinking that each and everyone is an expert (to their own peril).
*until the marxists in the government did an end run with Obamacare. Why, when the USA has been on the forefront of every major medical innovation and discovery, and when every patient with enough money comes to the US for treatment, has the idiocracy decided that they'd like "universal health care" like the rest of the world.
...oh yeah, almost forgot. Idiots.
And for the record, yes, as always is the MO of the marxists, the intention behind so called "universal health care" is desirable and good, perhaps, but anyone with an IQ larger than the number of pages in the average cliff note version of some novel can see that its just plain looney.
But society as a rule doesn't exactly judge things based on empirical evidence or historical precedent do they?
... clearly i must be in denial because i'm not a spoon fed ideologue who loves to push against the idea of equal rights and democracy.
to qoute danny devito ... OBVIOUSLY.
DIY has always been around, particularly in the making of buildings. This is why when they wrote local codes they included such a thing called Standard Construction. Regular folks have always built things themselves and it was deemed unfair to not provide the option for the individual to continue to do so. So guidelines exists specifically for the DIY'er or Owner Builder as it may say on the building permit.
In fact DIY is totally empowering along with being straight up Libertairian. There is a reason 'makers' and 'instructables' are so big among this generation, its the act of getting in touch with your own skills and getting away from foreign made junk.
DIY is great for our profession, particularly when the architect is doing it for themselves.
Besides, What kind of man looks down at another for attempting to something they clearly cannot accomplish, or worse laughs at their hamfisted results? No one with any self respect as far as i'm concerned.
How can DIY work *for* architects rather than *against*? How about: take the CA and conntract documents out of the equation? If you take away that part if it, you eliminate liability, and maybe Architects could focus on design? Other than administering projects, we are after all also ideas and detail people... Taste people...
What about: an architecture business that provided resources for the dour youselfer? Kits of parts... Or even manuals of design? Like: picture books... What if all I wanted to do was design but let people buy a manual and do it themselves... Not construction documents, more just pretty pictures for the DIYer? Like be the IKEA of architects?
IHM- Since you are apparently in medical school, then you are aware of the diminishing role of the doctor in society and the increasing responsibility of the nurses/ PA's. Insurance premiums and capitalism is causing the decline of the doctor's role... Money and hospital greed (and the increasing salaries of the hospital CEOs) are making them hire more assistants and less doctors. Nurses are gaining more responsibilities and less doctors are being hired. "Obamacare" for all the right's politically motivated bluster is a toned down bill that attempts to hold private providers slightly more accountable than they were before while making very little difference.
PS- I know several people out of medical school making just as much/ less than we do.
-PPS- You are against Democracy?
I question your logic of taking out more money in loans later in life to make more money. I think you will find your rate of return does not match your time input especially if you subtract lost earnings.
"One of the reasons I hate marxists is because they love to push the idea of democracy".
Wow you need to stop watching Glenn Beck and pick up a textbook because you are painfully ill informed about politics/philosphy...
to the ever so predictable, typically hypercritical (to the point of self exhaustion) dblock:
1. Bottom line: Generally a physician is always going to be valued more than the exceptional architect with all the right connections. This was true in the previous generations which endured the dark ages and it is true in more prosperous times, as well. 92% of MDs (such as my father and grandfather) are still engaged in private practive, as compared to the some 10% and shrinking pool of "sole practioning" architects. If I am getting out of the Titanic, if only to get on the Luisitania, I am still getting more time to play the game of life.
2. "I know several people out of medical school making just as much/ less than we do." Exception to the rule. But fine, lets pretend that this were to be the rule for a minute. Still, I'd prefer the quality of life of the indentured servant who interacts with real people on a regular basis as opposed to being a single minded slave to CAD.
3. I am not taking out additional loans. I have, how shall we say, "resources". I saw the sinking of this Titanic about 8 moons ago and made all the necessary logistical preparations. Being married for nearly a decade to an intelligent, hard working, devoted wife has its benefits. As does coming from a good family (not the dysfunctional messes created by watching too much Family Guy or the Simpsons).
4. "Wow you need to stop watching Glenn Beck and pick up a textbook because you are painfully ill informed about politics/philosphy". Semantics are a waste of yours and my time. In fact, this is why marxists love "critical theory". Deconstructivism, on the whole, is an entirely wasteful pursuit. Don't try to waste my time with this tripe. I'll just ignore you when you go there. I couldn't wait to get out of grad school for this one reason alone: get away from all the menial mental masturbation in academia. Now, on the other hand, if you want to cite your points using empirical evidence, including relevant germane anecdotes as well as data, I am all ears.
Not sure how this relates... But Ive heard an interesting pov on the difference between nurses and doctors... In their training, philosophy of practice and what their role in health services is... It's this: Doctors diagnose and treat ailments, while nurses care for patients...
Looked at this way, and watching my Uncle who is a Nurse in a hospital ward where terminally ill patients go to live out their last days, and watching nurses at work during childbirth vs. Obgyn's who show face for 2 seconds, I've sort of gained alot if respect for Nurses... It seems like a profession with a different set of skills that are much more intimately involved with the patient, making patients feel better rather than treating the illness itself... Different roles IMHO, not so much that the nurses are under the doctors... Different ideas about what care is about? I sort of feel like Doctors tend to be more analytical and less empathetic in both their knowledge and field of study?
One of the reasons I am in medical school is because doctors can be doctors and nurses can be nurses.
Architecture has allowed itself to accept the delusion that nurses (drafters) are doctors (architects) and vice versa.
Its moronic. I blame the "some more equal than others" mentality. In other words, hypocrisy on both the part of the aristocracy as well as the idiocracy. This equality myth under which western civilizations have been slaving for many post colonial decades (in fact western civ has been undergoing active colonization by invading hordes for several decades now, but don't tell the marxists I let this genie out of the bottle, it is too soon for them to allow anyone to realize it) has been burdensome to the point of suicide going on 80+ years now.
I start the clock for the false religion of equality's dominance of contemporary western civilization at the time in which the Frankfurt School invaded academia en masse.
I wouldn't equate nurses to drafters... More like interior designers maybe...
I don't think Doctors are necessarily above nurses, they just have different roles... I'm
not sure all Doctors can necessarily do what nurses do... They require different talents...
"I wouldn't equate nurses to drafters... More like interior designers maybe..."
Perhaps.
"I don't think Doctors are necessarily above nurses, they just have different roles..."
Then you missed the point. Doctors Are Above Nurses, that is, they are most decidedly SUPERIOR and nurses inferior, or if you prefer, subordinate. Planners and strategists are always superior (at least in a society where reason and not brute physical thuggery rules the day) to the muscle...its the nature of civilizations (advanced ones, at least).
"I'm not sure all Doctors can necessarily do what nurses do... They require different talents..."
This is a reasonable, logical, common sense starting point. Congratulations on what just might be your first lesson in learning to "discriminate" (i.e. choose the better option, as opposed to relegating all options to "equal"). Those thirsty dentritic arbors of yours will no doubt spring back to life if you continue to nourish them with the seeds of such heretical thought crimes.
Who says doctors are the planners and strategists though... The world is alittle more complex than that... You're comparing oranges to grapefruit... They are both fruit, they can be good or bad... Things are not so hierarchical... I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors...
"I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors..."
Say what you will as an individual, but I came across a scientific study a few years ago (still have a copy of it buried in my study at home) where data was collected concerning the average village idiots perception of trust and socioeconomic trust of all the various profession (firefighter, teacher, policeman, architect, doctor, engineer, ecclesiastical leaders, etc). I think the study is conducted on a regular basis, but I could be wrong. Anyways, the point is, and the bottom line is that the respect and socioeconomic trust of architects by the public has been declining steadily for years (I think it was ranked somewhere underneath engineer close to lawyer or something to that effect)...while personal doctor is still basically competing with ecclesiastical leader for the top spot on a routine basis.
Another one of the other studies I have ammassed over the years is data regarding the happiness of the various practicioners of the various professions. No surprise to most of you here...architects consistently rank dead last or close to it.
again, to quote, you said, ""I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors..."
And herein lies the fundaMENTAL, fiendish, diabolical twist in which the marxist mentality has infected the sheeple's minds:
Inverting the general rule to exception ratio.
That is, they start off by convincing the masses that everything is equal (no such thing as rules or superior v inferior),
next, they progressively get the sheeple to supplant the inferior and the exception for the superior and the general rule.
Meanwhile, they themselves (the self appointed ruling aristocracy, knew and knows all along that the superior and inferior and exception v general rule ALWAYS exist, for everyone, no matter who the idiot is who thinks they can imagine reality away).
I think accountants are most impacted by the DIY'ers with turbotax.
What I think the HGTV and "improvement" stores have done is make people believe that if they can decorate their own place they are actually designers rather than people making a collage of accessories. But I also think it would be insane to suggest someone hire a professional to specify a new faucet. It isn't like people watch HGTV, google some codes, go to home depot and start building skyscrapers.
I think BIM is potentially the most damaging aspect of professional architectural services - not to say it is a bad thing but rather all the premade default components make it even easier to copy mistakes and the precision of the computer gives the false sense of accuracy. I also love using BIM to get instant feedback on daylighting and fresh air for venting windows just by tweaking a number in a schedule rather than spending the time to do the calculations to verify compliance. I can do the math but it is faster = more profitable to let the computer compute so I can have more time to draw wicked flashing details.
"I think accountants are most impacted by the DIY'ers with turbotax."
as if the IRS and their cronies actually do anything (like architects, even the marixist ones, no less) to contribute to the edification of society.
In fact, the IRS, CPAs and the plebes at HR Block, heck, even the turbotax corp as well are nothing but time and energy (time and energy used to be traded for $$$ before the Fed captured the monopoly on legalized counterfeiting) draining parasites on society.
NOTE: I am not saying you were implying anything of the sort, different, or anything in between IlazyMexican, just a thought you prompted by the quote above. Thank you.
"...all the premade default components make it even easier to copy mistakes and the precision of the computer gives the false sense of accuracy..."
Yep. Exactly. The real problem though isn't BIM and its wasn't CAD either...the real problem is the idiocracy's transcendent faith in the messianic power of technology. Idiots. Being idiots again. Without the desturctive power of this false faith, architects could hand draw with charcoal stubs sharpened on rocks or draw on the most powerful BIM system ever to be developed and excellent outcome (as in the final built product) would still be the same. The difference is in the myth of equality and the subservience to the corporate technocracy.
travel agents. remember them? don't know if that really counts as a 'profession' though...
i've noticed this as well--what you call the DYI trend, or the erosion of respect for expertise...everyone thinks they can spend an hour on the internet now and it's done. some people have this idea that architects are some sort of brokers who stand between you and the stuff at home depot, rather than professionals with expertise.
a friend got married recently, and i went with her to a dress designer. the woman there WOULD NOT show my friend anything or give her any advice without a formal sit-down meeting and consultation in a room where there were no dresses to be found. She was very protective of her expertise, since otherwise, as she told us, people would take her ideas and go home and order something exactly like her stuff online. so her attitude was , if you want DIY, then do it yourself, but if you want my services, then sign me on first.
so here's a thought...instead of bending over backwards and giving away as much work as they can for free/reduced cost as most architects seem to do these days (which in my experience doesn't work even even for large offices...developers aren't stupid) what if we were more protective of our services?
i don't know if that would work, or if it would relegate architects permanently to the scrap heap, but if it works for dress designers........ just a thought.
"everyone thinks they can spend an hour on the internet now and it's done."
But the reality is a 'professional' is someone that knows a little bit more than the average person in order to do something. The entire points of guilds and trade schools is to closely guard 'secrets' in order to make that secret more profitable.
Essentially, things that you can learn on the internet and do yourself are things that you couldn't easily find out how to do.
In reality, the only thing that makes one an expert at something is the ability to recall a great wealth of knowledge.
But... what happens when you no longer have to remember anything?
When retention is no longer valuable or that it is a skill altered by technology, other facets of 'knowing' become valuable like investigating, analyzing and synthesis.
Most of the combined collected knowledge and experience of mankind is on the internet-- knowledge and experience do not matter.
Finding that knowledge and experience and comparing the validity of it with other points of reference is even more valuable. And, lastly, contributing to the collective knowledge and experience is even more valuable than that.
As a professional, you can wring your hands at all the people who are learning knew skills previously unknown to the masses.
Or you can monopolize the information scrapheap by providing your clients 8 different DIY ways of accomplishing one task and making reviews and criticism about which specific DIY is the best DIY methodology.
When was the last time you've seen an architect write an instruction manual about how to operate or clean a needlessly complicated building?
Unicorn:"When was the last time you've seen an architect write an instruction manual about how to operate or clean a needlessly complicated building?"
Operational manuals (for majority of building components) can be requested, by the architect, from manufacturers via Division 1 Section "Closeout Procedures". Staple all collected manuals together. Ta da!
In a way, architects don't really create that much content, but instead assemple existing content into new, unique products.
I'm posting this comment from a computer made by a company started by a college drop-out in his parent's garage - a company originally started to provide DIY "homebrew computer" enthusiasts an easier way to make their own computer.
I just posted this in another thread but I think its even more relevant to this one, so I'm posting it here as well"
mespleerong, you said,:
"...but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys)."
You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one is the complete inverse of reality. IN your analysis you did not go deeper than accepting the data provided by the "authorities". It has to do with the numbers the occ handbook uses (e.g. WHERE do they get their numbers) as well as (HOW the AIA assembles its data in its sneeky COMPENSATION REPORTS)
For example, let me let you in on a little "secret" in a twist of logic that the typical practicioner (licensed or not -from the AIA brainwashed dues paying member (as well as non dues paying uninitiated member of the AIA Union, i.e. unlicensed CAD monky)
Let me leave the breadtrail for all you nitwtis out there (and then I'll stop ranting for a moment about how technically incompetent the average AIA kiss up if these days):
DO A CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS ANALYSIS OF THE AIA COMPENSATION REPORTS AND YOU WILL NOTICE SOMETHING "FUNNY" ABOUT THEIR DEFINTIONS OF positions within firms.
One more breadcrumb and then I'll stop for now:
HINT: TO BE AN OWNER/ PARTNER/ MANAGER OF A FIRM, or indeed anyone of the particular positions within a firm: (NOT BY MY DEFINITION BUT NY THE AIA'S SO DON'T BE "HATIN'" ON ME YOU SHOULD BE HATIN' THE AIA AND THE IRS AND THE SECRESTS OF THE EQUALITY DICTATORS AT THE VERY TOP, besides realizing how pissed you all ought to be at yourselves for not being techincially adept enough to notice the carefully crafted loophole)
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE LICENSED AT ALL!!!
And now you know why the license, and the profession is NOT WORTH SHIT!!!
Be honest with yourself and your nieghbor for one millisecond: Do you really think that lawyers or doctors would have a socioeconoimcally viable profession for longer than 24 hours if requirement for non-D.I.Y selfing was NOT embedded inextricably from any particular socioeconomic system? Only for the top .0005% of course (and most definately NOT for the average professional architect, lawyer, or doctor or any profession).
THIS IS WHY I HATE THE CONTEMPORARY PROFESSION, THE AIA (by default), AND AT THE ROOT OF IT MARXISM.
Yet most of you sycophants will just brush over my technical point in your mad craze to simply numb you intelligence into accepting more layers of cognitive dissoance to placate your consciences for "just a little while longer" so you can survive until tonight when you can at least have one more beer and pretend its all good.
IDIOTS. you've left the barn door open. But thats what happens when every door keeper is categorized as "equal". IDIOTS.
FOR ONCE I WISH ANY OLD AVERAGE AIA IDIOT ARCHITECT WOULD DO WHAT THEY DO BEST AND STEAL THIS PARTICULAR IDEA, MAKE IT THEIR OWN, NECESSARILY ALSO GETTING TO THE REQUISITE DEGREE OF ANGER IT REQUIRES TO INVEST IN GETTING IT, AND PUBLISH IT ON THE ROOFTOPS.
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath. And thats why I've moved on to a profession with socioeconomic prospects of 10x the dollar opportunties and a priceless amount of respect from the public (as opposed to derision).
Under private property ... Each tries to establish over the other an alien power, so as thereby to find satisfaction of his own selfish need. The increase in the quantity of objects is therefore accompanied by an extension of the realm of the alien powers to which man is subjected, and every new product represents a new potentiality of mutual swindling and mutual plundering.
So basically you can make lots of money by coming up with an idea that eliminates the need for a particular function of profession and is available on the internet for $9.99
so if you are in the profession you can discover this need and monopolize on it.
I worked for a guy who was old enough top enjoy the days when you could advertise a set of house plans with Basic CDs included and sell hundreds of copies for hundreds of dollars. Clearly that hurt the profession a bit.
So IHATEMARXIST you bailed without making an ass load of money in this profession? With all your knowledge you'd think you'd know something.
Dec 3, 10 8:20 pm ·
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DIY and professions
Which profession is hurt most by the DIY (do it yourself) mentality?
I am going to say architecture but who knows maybe Doctors get screwed out of work by self medicators.
Between HGTV and Home Depots It seems to me everyone is an architect and think because they read code once or their cousin who claims their house renovation is to code while being completely illegal they to can do our job and therefore want to pay less...meanwhile they are lawyers who would never work for less (douche bags)
I say Engineering is safe forever due to the math thing.
By the way in some countries you still have to go to the doctor to get prescription for what would be over the counter medicine in the US.
Anything wood-frame is within grasp of any design enthusiast. It's easy to work cut, nail, erect. I am not sure how many architects are terribly interested in bungalow remodeling or wood deck design. Perhaps in this economy, all of them...
We will eventually run out of wood, and then we'll be using concrete and masonry for eben simplest of projects. That type of construction scares most DIYers.
So be patient for the next few decades or so.
By the way in some countries you can get medicine for the fraction of the cost of the prices found in the US.
The DIY mentality is just as destructive to society and the profession in the long run as the contemporary myth of equality.
In today's world, the generation which was wise enough to defer to the expert (such as the architect) is practically either all dead already or holed up in a nursing home somewhere.
In today's world, the average "global citizen" has been taught that if they can nail a 2x4 together, then "Yes we can".
One of the reasons I hate marxists is because they love to push the idea of democracy.
Back when the economic system was modeled on a republic, the average architect practicioner had opportunities to leverage his expertise because the larger society deferred to them in the first place.
And architects are now in an even more hopeless perdicament...because they are teaching BIM to high schoolers and convicts in the prison systems (hint: subcontractors know more than the average contemporary architect about how to build something) and marketing it as a video game that anyone with two hands and a pulse can successfully operate.
So just as Home Depot and the DIY mentality got rid of the architect in the role of master builder, so does the computer get rid of the architect as master plan producer (this was the final thing the architect had for leverage and it is gone as well, if one is honest).
And for the record I do not like it anymore than any other architect does.
But it is just the way it is. And it doesn't help that the profession, generally speaking, buys into the whole "one world", "everyone is an equal participant", "there is no such thing as superior/ inferior" moronic outlook. In fact, the reason why doctors and lawyers still make a decent income commensurate with their education and experience is because they have been so much wiser to stay away from the whole "equality" poison.
The balance of "anti-discrimination" has swung way too far to the opposite extreme of hanging innocent people from tree branches.
Now, under contemporary marxism in the west, the one who is excellent is the subject of the lynchmob's wrath.
Ever heard of Web MD? Of course patients self diagnose and self medicate! My brother is a doctor, he bitches about it all the time but he still makes 6 figures.
Ever seen the DIY legal forms? Very common and very useful.
"Ever heard of Web MD?"
Yeah. Quite a germane point you've made. Nice. Exactly.
But still, the medical profession has been doing an infinitely better job at keeping the average village idiot at bay*
Ahh yes...never underestimate the power of the idiocracy to fool themselves into thinking that each and everyone is an expert (to their own peril).
*until the marxists in the government did an end run with Obamacare. Why, when the USA has been on the forefront of every major medical innovation and discovery, and when every patient with enough money comes to the US for treatment, has the idiocracy decided that they'd like "universal health care" like the rest of the world.
...oh yeah, almost forgot. Idiots.
And for the record, yes, as always is the MO of the marxists, the intention behind so called "universal health care" is desirable and good, perhaps, but anyone with an IQ larger than the number of pages in the average cliff note version of some novel can see that its just plain looney.
But society as a rule doesn't exactly judge things based on empirical evidence or historical precedent do they?
...oh yeah, almost forgot. Idiots.
repeating the same boring stuff over and over again doesn't make it true.
Living in a state of denial doesn't make it untrue, either.
Web md and still making 6 figures...damn where did we screw up? Can't be the DIYers...
I always thought DIY were capitalists, can you be a DIY and part of a marxists society? Maybe you are calling architects communists?
... clearly i must be in denial because i'm not a spoon fed ideologue who loves to push against the idea of equal rights and democracy.
to qoute danny devito ... OBVIOUSLY.
DIY has always been around, particularly in the making of buildings. This is why when they wrote local codes they included such a thing called Standard Construction. Regular folks have always built things themselves and it was deemed unfair to not provide the option for the individual to continue to do so. So guidelines exists specifically for the DIY'er or Owner Builder as it may say on the building permit.
In fact DIY is totally empowering along with being straight up Libertairian. There is a reason 'makers' and 'instructables' are so big among this generation, its the act of getting in touch with your own skills and getting away from foreign made junk.
DIY is great for our profession, particularly when the architect is doing it for themselves.
Besides, What kind of man looks down at another for attempting to something they clearly cannot accomplish, or worse laughs at their hamfisted results? No one with any self respect as far as i'm concerned.
"...getting away from foreign made junk"
Indeed.
How can DIY work *for* architects rather than *against*? How about: take the CA and conntract documents out of the equation? If you take away that part if it, you eliminate liability, and maybe Architects could focus on design? Other than administering projects, we are after all also ideas and detail people... Taste people...
What about: an architecture business that provided resources for the dour youselfer? Kits of parts... Or even manuals of design? Like: picture books... What if all I wanted to do was design but let people buy a manual and do it themselves... Not construction documents, more just pretty pictures for the DIYer? Like be the IKEA of architects?
IHM- Since you are apparently in medical school, then you are aware of the diminishing role of the doctor in society and the increasing responsibility of the nurses/ PA's. Insurance premiums and capitalism is causing the decline of the doctor's role... Money and hospital greed (and the increasing salaries of the hospital CEOs) are making them hire more assistants and less doctors. Nurses are gaining more responsibilities and less doctors are being hired. "Obamacare" for all the right's politically motivated bluster is a toned down bill that attempts to hold private providers slightly more accountable than they were before while making very little difference.
PS- I know several people out of medical school making just as much/ less than we do.
-PPS- You are against Democracy?
I question your logic of taking out more money in loans later in life to make more money. I think you will find your rate of return does not match your time input especially if you subtract lost earnings.
"One of the reasons I hate marxists is because they love to push the idea of democracy".
Wow you need to stop watching Glenn Beck and pick up a textbook because you are painfully ill informed about politics/philosphy...
to the ever so predictable, typically hypercritical (to the point of self exhaustion) dblock:
1. Bottom line: Generally a physician is always going to be valued more than the exceptional architect with all the right connections. This was true in the previous generations which endured the dark ages and it is true in more prosperous times, as well. 92% of MDs (such as my father and grandfather) are still engaged in private practive, as compared to the some 10% and shrinking pool of "sole practioning" architects. If I am getting out of the Titanic, if only to get on the Luisitania, I am still getting more time to play the game of life.
2. "I know several people out of medical school making just as much/ less than we do." Exception to the rule. But fine, lets pretend that this were to be the rule for a minute. Still, I'd prefer the quality of life of the indentured servant who interacts with real people on a regular basis as opposed to being a single minded slave to CAD.
3. I am not taking out additional loans. I have, how shall we say, "resources". I saw the sinking of this Titanic about 8 moons ago and made all the necessary logistical preparations. Being married for nearly a decade to an intelligent, hard working, devoted wife has its benefits. As does coming from a good family (not the dysfunctional messes created by watching too much Family Guy or the Simpsons).
4. "Wow you need to stop watching Glenn Beck and pick up a textbook because you are painfully ill informed about politics/philosphy". Semantics are a waste of yours and my time. In fact, this is why marxists love "critical theory". Deconstructivism, on the whole, is an entirely wasteful pursuit. Don't try to waste my time with this tripe. I'll just ignore you when you go there. I couldn't wait to get out of grad school for this one reason alone: get away from all the menial mental masturbation in academia. Now, on the other hand, if you want to cite your points using empirical evidence, including relevant germane anecdotes as well as data, I am all ears.
Not sure how this relates... But Ive heard an interesting pov on the difference between nurses and doctors... In their training, philosophy of practice and what their role in health services is... It's this: Doctors diagnose and treat ailments, while nurses care for patients...
Looked at this way, and watching my Uncle who is a Nurse in a hospital ward where terminally ill patients go to live out their last days, and watching nurses at work during childbirth vs. Obgyn's who show face for 2 seconds, I've sort of gained alot if respect for Nurses... It seems like a profession with a different set of skills that are much more intimately involved with the patient, making patients feel better rather than treating the illness itself... Different roles IMHO, not so much that the nurses are under the doctors... Different ideas about what care is about? I sort of feel like Doctors tend to be more analytical and less empathetic in both their knowledge and field of study?
bRink I think you are generally spot on.
One of the reasons I am in medical school is because doctors can be doctors and nurses can be nurses.
Architecture has allowed itself to accept the delusion that nurses (drafters) are doctors (architects) and vice versa.
Its moronic. I blame the "some more equal than others" mentality. In other words, hypocrisy on both the part of the aristocracy as well as the idiocracy. This equality myth under which western civilizations have been slaving for many post colonial decades (in fact western civ has been undergoing active colonization by invading hordes for several decades now, but don't tell the marxists I let this genie out of the bottle, it is too soon for them to allow anyone to realize it) has been burdensome to the point of suicide going on 80+ years now.
I start the clock for the false religion of equality's dominance of contemporary western civilization at the time in which the Frankfurt School invaded academia en masse.
I wouldn't equate nurses to drafters... More like interior designers maybe...
I don't think Doctors are necessarily above nurses, they just have different roles... I'm
not sure all Doctors can necessarily do what nurses do... They require different talents...
"I wouldn't equate nurses to drafters... More like interior designers maybe..."
Perhaps.
"I don't think Doctors are necessarily above nurses, they just have different roles..."
Then you missed the point. Doctors Are Above Nurses, that is, they are most decidedly SUPERIOR and nurses inferior, or if you prefer, subordinate. Planners and strategists are always superior (at least in a society where reason and not brute physical thuggery rules the day) to the muscle...its the nature of civilizations (advanced ones, at least).
"I'm not sure all Doctors can necessarily do what nurses do... They require different talents..."
This is a reasonable, logical, common sense starting point. Congratulations on what just might be your first lesson in learning to "discriminate" (i.e. choose the better option, as opposed to relegating all options to "equal"). Those thirsty dentritic arbors of yours will no doubt spring back to life if you continue to nourish them with the seeds of such heretical thought crimes.
No doubt, Big Brother will not be pleased.
Who says doctors are the planners and strategists though... The world is alittle more complex than that... You're comparing oranges to grapefruit... They are both fruit, they can be good or bad... Things are not so hierarchical... I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors...
"I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors..."
Say what you will as an individual, but I came across a scientific study a few years ago (still have a copy of it buried in my study at home) where data was collected concerning the average village idiots perception of trust and socioeconomic trust of all the various profession (firefighter, teacher, policeman, architect, doctor, engineer, ecclesiastical leaders, etc). I think the study is conducted on a regular basis, but I could be wrong. Anyways, the point is, and the bottom line is that the respect and socioeconomic trust of architects by the public has been declining steadily for years (I think it was ranked somewhere underneath engineer close to lawyer or something to that effect)...while personal doctor is still basically competing with ecclesiastical leader for the top spot on a routine basis.
Another one of the other studies I have ammassed over the years is data regarding the happiness of the various practicioners of the various professions. No surprise to most of you here...architects consistently rank dead last or close to it.
again, to quote, you said, ""I have alot more respect for alot of architects and what they do than some doctors..."
And herein lies the fundaMENTAL, fiendish, diabolical twist in which the marxist mentality has infected the sheeple's minds:
Inverting the general rule to exception ratio.
That is, they start off by convincing the masses that everything is equal (no such thing as rules or superior v inferior),
next, they progressively get the sheeple to supplant the inferior and the exception for the superior and the general rule.
Meanwhile, they themselves (the self appointed ruling aristocracy, knew and knows all along that the superior and inferior and exception v general rule ALWAYS exist, for everyone, no matter who the idiot is who thinks they can imagine reality away).
I think accountants are most impacted by the DIY'ers with turbotax.
What I think the HGTV and "improvement" stores have done is make people believe that if they can decorate their own place they are actually designers rather than people making a collage of accessories. But I also think it would be insane to suggest someone hire a professional to specify a new faucet. It isn't like people watch HGTV, google some codes, go to home depot and start building skyscrapers.
I think BIM is potentially the most damaging aspect of professional architectural services - not to say it is a bad thing but rather all the premade default components make it even easier to copy mistakes and the precision of the computer gives the false sense of accuracy. I also love using BIM to get instant feedback on daylighting and fresh air for venting windows just by tweaking a number in a schedule rather than spending the time to do the calculations to verify compliance. I can do the math but it is faster = more profitable to let the computer compute so I can have more time to draw wicked flashing details.
"I think accountants are most impacted by the DIY'ers with turbotax."
as if the IRS and their cronies actually do anything (like architects, even the marixist ones, no less) to contribute to the edification of society.
In fact, the IRS, CPAs and the plebes at HR Block, heck, even the turbotax corp as well are nothing but time and energy (time and energy used to be traded for $$$ before the Fed captured the monopoly on legalized counterfeiting) draining parasites on society.
NOTE: I am not saying you were implying anything of the sort, different, or anything in between IlazyMexican, just a thought you prompted by the quote above. Thank you.
"...all the premade default components make it even easier to copy mistakes and the precision of the computer gives the false sense of accuracy..."
Yep. Exactly. The real problem though isn't BIM and its wasn't CAD either...the real problem is the idiocracy's transcendent faith in the messianic power of technology. Idiots. Being idiots again. Without the desturctive power of this false faith, architects could hand draw with charcoal stubs sharpened on rocks or draw on the most powerful BIM system ever to be developed and excellent outcome (as in the final built product) would still be the same. The difference is in the myth of equality and the subservience to the corporate technocracy.
travel agents. remember them? don't know if that really counts as a 'profession' though...
i've noticed this as well--what you call the DYI trend, or the erosion of respect for expertise...everyone thinks they can spend an hour on the internet now and it's done. some people have this idea that architects are some sort of brokers who stand between you and the stuff at home depot, rather than professionals with expertise.
a friend got married recently, and i went with her to a dress designer. the woman there WOULD NOT show my friend anything or give her any advice without a formal sit-down meeting and consultation in a room where there were no dresses to be found. She was very protective of her expertise, since otherwise, as she told us, people would take her ideas and go home and order something exactly like her stuff online. so her attitude was , if you want DIY, then do it yourself, but if you want my services, then sign me on first.
so here's a thought...instead of bending over backwards and giving away as much work as they can for free/reduced cost as most architects seem to do these days (which in my experience doesn't work even even for large offices...developers aren't stupid) what if we were more protective of our services?
i don't know if that would work, or if it would relegate architects permanently to the scrap heap, but if it works for dress designers........ just a thought.
"everyone thinks they can spend an hour on the internet now and it's done."
But the reality is a 'professional' is someone that knows a little bit more than the average person in order to do something. The entire points of guilds and trade schools is to closely guard 'secrets' in order to make that secret more profitable.
Essentially, things that you can learn on the internet and do yourself are things that you couldn't easily find out how to do.
In reality, the only thing that makes one an expert at something is the ability to recall a great wealth of knowledge.
But... what happens when you no longer have to remember anything?
When retention is no longer valuable or that it is a skill altered by technology, other facets of 'knowing' become valuable like investigating, analyzing and synthesis.
Most of the combined collected knowledge and experience of mankind is on the internet-- knowledge and experience do not matter.
Finding that knowledge and experience and comparing the validity of it with other points of reference is even more valuable. And, lastly, contributing to the collective knowledge and experience is even more valuable than that.
As a professional, you can wring your hands at all the people who are learning knew skills previously unknown to the masses.
Or you can monopolize the information scrapheap by providing your clients 8 different DIY ways of accomplishing one task and making reviews and criticism about which specific DIY is the best DIY methodology.
When was the last time you've seen an architect write an instruction manual about how to operate or clean a needlessly complicated building?
Unicorn:"When was the last time you've seen an architect write an instruction manual about how to operate or clean a needlessly complicated building?"
Operational manuals (for majority of building components) can be requested, by the architect, from manufacturers via Division 1 Section "Closeout Procedures". Staple all collected manuals together. Ta da!
In a way, architects don't really create that much content, but instead assemple existing content into new, unique products.
I'm posting this comment from a computer made by a company started by a college drop-out in his parent's garage - a company originally started to provide DIY "homebrew computer" enthusiasts an easier way to make their own computer.
I just posted this in another thread but I think its even more relevant to this one, so I'm posting it here as well"
mespleerong, you said,:
"...but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys)."
You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one is the complete inverse of reality. IN your analysis you did not go deeper than accepting the data provided by the "authorities". It has to do with the numbers the occ handbook uses (e.g. WHERE do they get their numbers) as well as (HOW the AIA assembles its data in its sneeky COMPENSATION REPORTS)
For example, let me let you in on a little "secret" in a twist of logic that the typical practicioner (licensed or not -from the AIA brainwashed dues paying member (as well as non dues paying uninitiated member of the AIA Union, i.e. unlicensed CAD monky)
Let me leave the breadtrail for all you nitwtis out there (and then I'll stop ranting for a moment about how technically incompetent the average AIA kiss up if these days):
DO A CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS ANALYSIS OF THE AIA COMPENSATION REPORTS AND YOU WILL NOTICE SOMETHING "FUNNY" ABOUT THEIR DEFINTIONS OF positions within firms.
One more breadcrumb and then I'll stop for now:
HINT: TO BE AN OWNER/ PARTNER/ MANAGER OF A FIRM, or indeed anyone of the particular positions within a firm: (NOT BY MY DEFINITION BUT NY THE AIA'S SO DON'T BE "HATIN'" ON ME YOU SHOULD BE HATIN' THE AIA AND THE IRS AND THE SECRESTS OF THE EQUALITY DICTATORS AT THE VERY TOP, besides realizing how pissed you all ought to be at yourselves for not being techincially adept enough to notice the carefully crafted loophole)
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE LICENSED AT ALL!!!
And now you know why the license, and the profession is NOT WORTH SHIT!!!
Be honest with yourself and your nieghbor for one millisecond: Do you really think that lawyers or doctors would have a socioeconoimcally viable profession for longer than 24 hours if requirement for non-D.I.Y selfing was NOT embedded inextricably from any particular socioeconomic system? Only for the top .0005% of course (and most definately NOT for the average professional architect, lawyer, or doctor or any profession).
THIS IS WHY I HATE THE CONTEMPORARY PROFESSION, THE AIA (by default), AND AT THE ROOT OF IT MARXISM.
Yet most of you sycophants will just brush over my technical point in your mad craze to simply numb you intelligence into accepting more layers of cognitive dissoance to placate your consciences for "just a little while longer" so you can survive until tonight when you can at least have one more beer and pretend its all good.
IDIOTS. you've left the barn door open. But thats what happens when every door keeper is categorized as "equal". IDIOTS.
FOR ONCE I WISH ANY OLD AVERAGE AIA IDIOT ARCHITECT WOULD DO WHAT THEY DO BEST AND STEAL THIS PARTICULAR IDEA, MAKE IT THEIR OWN, NECESSARILY ALSO GETTING TO THE REQUISITE DEGREE OF ANGER IT REQUIRES TO INVEST IN GETTING IT, AND PUBLISH IT ON THE ROOFTOPS.
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath. And thats why I've moved on to a profession with socioeconomic prospects of 10x the dollar opportunties and a priceless amount of respect from the public (as opposed to derision).
Under private property ... Each tries to establish over the other an alien power, so as thereby to find satisfaction of his own selfish need. The increase in the quantity of objects is therefore accompanied by an extension of the realm of the alien powers to which man is subjected, and every new product represents a new potentiality of mutual swindling and mutual plundering.
Marx, Human Requirements and Division of Labour
So basically you can make lots of money by coming up with an idea that eliminates the need for a particular function of profession and is available on the internet for $9.99
so if you are in the profession you can discover this need and monopolize on it.
I worked for a guy who was old enough top enjoy the days when you could advertise a set of house plans with Basic CDs included and sell hundreds of copies for hundreds of dollars. Clearly that hurt the profession a bit.
So IHATEMARXIST you bailed without making an ass load of money in this profession? With all your knowledge you'd think you'd know something.
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