Reporting from the front lines in Portland, Oregon.
Two weeks ago, I applied for a part-time CAD job at a local company that manufactures various architectural accessories (mainly aluminum railing systems). They called me back, I got an interview, and then I waited. Finally, I decided to email them to get the lowdown on my competition. In short, I asked them how many applications they had received. Here was the response:
"We received about 150 applications within just a few days and had to turn the ad off to stop the flow of resumes. We did not expect that to happen with an ad for a part time drafting position."
My jaw just about hit the floor. I was thinking somewhere in the ballpark of 50 to 60 applicants. Imagine what the numbers would be for a full-time-with-benefits position.
Being the realist that I am, I patently refuse to believe anything that comes out of government officials' mouths regarding the state of unemployment in this country. And considering that election time is just around the corner, it's unlikely we'll receive any accurate employment numbers any time soon, lest Obama's approval ratings sink even lower.
So, rather than basing our understanding of the current job market on simple jobs lost vs. jobs gained numbers, which is all anyone in the mainstream is willing to report, it seems to me that a more accurate indication of the market is the jobs-to-applicants ratio, which for architecture-related jobs stands somewhere around 1:150 here in P-Town. Even assuming 100 of those applicants were monkeys who accidentally hit the wrong button on their keyboards, we're still talking a ratio of 1:50. Now, I'm hoping Portland is just an outlier on the bell curve, so to speak, but my gut tells me it's not.
So basically, I'm wondering if anyone out there has done the same type of research (specifically: asking potential employers how many apps they've gotten for job openings) and gotten some hard numbers. If so, feel free to put 'em down here. That way, maybe we can get a somewhat realistic view of the situation, since most of the douchebag economists in Washington don't seem to have a clue.
I'm in Portland too. It's kind of brutal out there. Portland also suffers from a combo of very poor economy and very appealing urban quality that brings in a lot of architects. If so many other cities didn't suck so much in terms of cohesive planning, that 1:150 ratio would be a bit lower. 1:100 or so.
Keep in mind that that was an entry level position. Anyone could do it. A recent job I interviewed for (but didn't get) was for a highly specialized position. They received around 120 applications in the course of few weeks, but only 12 applicants had the actual skills needed, and of those 6 got interviews. There is nothing preventing anyone from applying to any remotely relevant position. And that's exactly what's happening.
Unemployment in Portland for architects is around 40%. All of my engineering friends are gainfully employed though. We pay the price for choosing a career path with such a narrow focal range.
That too will change. And if not, we can always start a gang. Clockwork Orange style.
Thanks for the info, Steel. Unfortunately, I probably fall into the category of entry level, since I've yet to gain any meaningful experience since graduating in '08. But you're right: a lot of these positions are probably specialized, so the numbers I presented could be misleading in terms of the level of competition. I'm curious, are you currently employed?
In my city (Chicago) I'm hearing roughly 300 responses per ad. Which is kind of funny since there have been no ads actually posted for about a year now, at least... so these are 300 responses per rumor of a possible job.
df - the unemployment numbers are out there, reported as they always are. There are different numbers for different reports (ie payroll, etc.).
To think that they are "skewed" is ridiculous. Not telling the entire picture, of course, because they are limited snapshots of one particular faction of the economy (hence why there are so many reports, different interpretations of them, etc.). I guess it depends on where you are getting your information (I avoid the blatant headlines and try to read about what/why/when details).
This is how they are done, has nothing to do with who is in office.
Lastly, I've heard those numbers from several people. It is more or less easy to apply to as many positions are listed, regardless of what the specifics are (I mean, why wouldn't everyone apply for every job?).
Hey fella. Not employed, with just over 10 years of experience, I haven't even seen many job listings that would match my particular skills in the last year or so.
Also of note about Portland. Jobs aren't really advertised in these parts. It's all word of mouth. You gotta know the right people. It can be very frustrating at times. Try your best to run into other architects at the million brew-pubs we have around here.
@trace: Us does have a wonky way of measuring unemployment compared to other developed nations. This issue is also well documented. 15 hour part-time position counts you as fully employed, etc...
Luckily Bereau of Labor Statistics also provides alternate methods to measure that rate. U6 method accounts for those whose unemployment has run out, those who have just given up out of sheer desperation, and those who are severely underemployed.
Current unemployment rate under U6 is at just over 17% nation wide. Thats a wee bit higher than the 9.2% 'official' rate that's being used in the media.
della..as you graduated in '08, you're actually not in a terrible position. of the jobs I made it to the final few, the job always went to the recent grad. No offense, but you guys are cheaper than steelstuds and I with 5 or more years exp. In fact, I had one guy tell me that he really wanted to hire me because he thought I would contribute and fit in idealistically with the office, but he got out voted by the other two partners because the other person just got out of school and they could pay them 30% less then what I asked for (which was 30% less that what I was making in Boston). The ad was for someone with 3-5 yrs exp. and some project management exp. as well.
I know an office in Boston that got 300 resumes in 12 hours. Word back there is unemployment is 45%.
studs...we should run into some brew pubs again. della can come too!
@mantaray: thanks for the info. sorry to hear things are so rough in Chitown.
@trace: i don't think it's "ridiculous" to suggest that the numbers are skewed. leaving out important factors (such as job-to-applicant ratios) is one way of skewing reality to paint a rosy portrait of a failing economy. take for example GDP: this number is the most oft-quoted indicator (in the mainstream media, at least) of economic performance, and yet it is one of the worst indicators of actual economic conditions. if a company lays off workers here and ships jobs overseas, but makes a profit despite said layoffs, that contributes to positive GDP. another obvious and common misconception is that the performance of the stock market has anything to do with real economics. the DOW just keeps on climbing despite the fact that foreclosures and unemployment are are record highs. to think that the government makes no effort whatsoever to obscure information that is detrimental to its political standing is, i think, a bit naive.
@steel: wow, 10+ years experience and you can't find anything? yikes. guess i better pack up and move back to japan to teach english!
@THEaquino: thanks for the info. kind of a sad state of affairs that people who are actually more qualified to work are less likely to get hired. honestly, considering how rusty my skills are after not having done anything architecture related for nearly two years, i would feel really bad if i got hired instead of someone like you or Steel. anyway....i wonder if there's a connection between the high unemployment among architects and the fact that they tend to hang out at brew pubs....hahaha. i guess IPA is as good a cure as anything for the unemployment blues.
This was for a position I had applied to in Philadelphia, which for me would have been a cross-country move. I'm in New Mexico and there is nothing for jobs here. The largest problem is that most of the neighboring states are scalping most of the work, which has left the local offices scrambling for anything they can get. My last office went from doing ground-up schools to doing reroofing and ADA improvement jobs. I'm at the point of applying to just about any position in the US (except for NYC because from what I hear, there is no way I will get paid to cover cost of living).
And as many have mentioned already, very few offices are actually advertising. It's unnecessary- most offices have a pool of people they laid-off they likely haven't found work and they can easily rehire them back- I know of at least one person from my class that happened to. Otherwise, I imagine that offices are getting enough unsolicited resumes a day to fill jobs as they are needed. I plan on taking that approach here in the next few weeks- picking a city, going through the AIA directory and sending a resume to EVERY office in the area. Once I exhaust that city, I'll go down the list to somewhere else. Start with places I could see myself moving to and working my way down until I get to El Paso. When that fails, I'm moving to China or jumping off a bridge.
We need more earthquakes and natural disasters to create an architectural need. Even those things have been outsourced overseas. I blame El Paso for all of this.
@Cherith: A fellow New Mexican! I was born there and lived there till '95. I go back now and then since my dad still lives there. he's actually friends with antoine predock, but even that wasn't enough to get a foot in the door! sorry to hear things are so bad there, too. and yeah, you're right about new york. a good friend of mine got a job in richard meier's model shop and makes $20K/a year and has to moonlight as a web designer. says if he's lucky he'll get moved up to the design floor in 6 months. that said, i'd kill to have a job like that. hahaha. anyway, i suggest you move to china and THEN jump off something, preferably the three gorges dam. what an awesome way to go.
@steel i'd gladly take you with me...assuming there are even jobs available. i'm heading to san fran next month to interview with one of the big three english companies in japan, but like everything it looks to be hypercompetitive. and the company i worked for in japan last year is apparently getting flooded with applicants. anyway, yeah, i'm always down for getting together, especially since i don't have too many friends in PDX anymore. hit me up some time: [email protected] i'm in beavertron and i don't have a car.
i generally ask this question when i have the opportunity to interview (or it comes up, anyway). i actually just got a call today (yay!) for a posting from craigslist from the 11th in the morning (i applied yesterday afternoon). dude voluntarily said he received over 300 applications (for a vague ad, no firm identified, etc). this is in chicago. and actually, my interview is on saturday. what does one wear to a saturday interview?
back in may, a large national firm here in chicago posted an ad for an intern architect on their website, not on any job board. it was posted on monday afternoon, by the time i felt good about my awesome cover letter, thursday morning, the opening had disappeared. anyway, i ended up meeting someone who worked there, and he said they received over 300 applications in under 48 hours, so they had to close it.
back in early november, i interviewed for a drafting job, also posted on craigslist (again in chicago). i don't remember how long the ad was up, but they said they received over 400 applications.
fella, i regret coming back here after i finished grad school almost every day. i would advise just about anyone to stay away. portland sounds rough, but at least it's like hipster heaven, or something.
i've had 9 interviews (and 2 second interviews) in the past year, which doesn't sound so so bad, averaged out. unfortunately, three of those jobs apparently never materialized, and i'm still waiting on one (a second interview from june! but they keep saying they want to hire me, just that things aren't there yet). i am trying to get outta here
last position we advertised for was a part time office manager - bookkeeping, general office help, etc. - we listed the salary and # of days a week (14 and 2).
listed it on craigslist.
348 response in 3 days. had to take it down after day 2. of that, 3 had an mba in finance; about 12 had more than 15 years experience in the same position. 14 were trained architects and/or interns and/or recent grads openly admitting they were just trying to get a foot in the door. all in all, we had 39 we thought were 'qualified'. some of those were way overqualified. we winnowed it down to 6 that we thought were the best match, talked to all 6, interviewed 2, picked 1.
i was floored by the response. the last time we had looked for an office manager in 2006, we did the same m.o. - only got 30 or so responses in 2 weeks. so, yeah, i thought we'd get more, but nowhere near that many.
friend of mine put an ad in archinect year and a half ago. he advertised it as $25 per/hour job. it was for a really interesting residential project. he got slammed here for being cheap (that was irrelevant because after all the costs of the project, he ended up making less than the applicant.).
however, +/- 200 people applied and he hired one with many years of experience who is very appreciative and helpful to my friend.
3 had an mba in finance
12 had more than 15 years experience in the same position.
14 were trained architects
This really makes me lose all hope of every finding any job, let alone one at my skill level and interest. It's disheartening to know that a Masters Degree and experience still means working at the mall.
della - we're in atlanta. we haven't hired architectural staff in a while (we're a small firm). we had to replace our office manager after her second child made her realize she wanted to focus on being a mom. hated to see her go, but completely understood.
paulo - we hired someone who was also an office manager for a civil firm that had lost enough work that they needed to go part time there. so, they're still doing work for both companies (us and them). she had no specialized education, just solid work experience in a professional services firm close enough to us. oddly, we got no responses from admin's that had architectural office exp.
cherith - i wouldn't give up hope - the mba types aren't going to be hired for this because they're a definite flight risk and we don't want to hire again in 3 months time. the people who had lots of experience time wise mostly didn't pass the proverbial smell test. the architects....well, i understand why they did it (and most were upfront about hoping it would convert to a studio position at some point), but see the first explanation above.
This thread is so depressing. I'm a May 09' BS grad and have yet to find an arch job. Have sent resumes too or applied to over 200 places (4 interviews). SMH. I'm debating going back to grad school but I don't even know if it's worth it. This has got to be the worst time ever to be coming out school. THE WORST!
Umm in my latest mid-size starchitect (already deep in the recession), every Friday, the admin staff made a "Resume clearance".
They quickly checked the CVs received the same week and selected the best to archive them. The remaining was put in a 20 x 14 inch IKEA plastic box (that was usually full)... for the next day the cleaners to put everything on the paper container.
And that was only paper applications; add to this the computer / email ones :)
I know the job market is incredibly competitive right now, but what about pursuing your own projects and being self employed? The reality is, you can go work for an office for 30% less than you would have made 2 or 3 years ago, or you can try your best to meet people and advertise your skills to people who need an architect, contractor, interior designer, etc. I remember reading about this guy: http://architecture5cents.com/ a while back. Very inspiring. If you've worked in the profession for more than a few years, you probably know enough to complete projects on your own and what you don't know you can generally find through Google.
There was also an interesting interview I read recently with Joshua Prince Ramus. One of the points he raised was that for generations, architecture was a profession that "ate their young". The recession has changed this and actually given an upper hand to those who are willing to work hard and develop their own practice. Worth a read: http://www.designboom.com/eng/interview/rex_architecture.html
"and what you don't know you can generally find through Google."
Nice...offer services you have no clue in how to provide. Architecture has really come full circle.
"those who are willing to work hard and develop their own practice."
And those who have the funds to make a go at it. What you are not taking into real consideration are things like debt, etc....and the non existence of credit...which one would need to help fund a project if one where not of wealth. We should all keep doing our own personal interests but to argue that as a solution to the lack of jobs is more than disingenuous...it is just stupid.
And having a Harvard grad snicker about connections is hardly inspiring...condescending is a bit more like it.
Greenville, SC, which until the downturn was a very hot market, jobs-wise, has arch unemployment around 40% -- as listed in the newspaper about six months ago. This does not include underemployment or those who've left the market. Don't know what the current number is. Seems hiring is picking up a bit but a very far way from where it would need to be to get back to how it was.
At a symposium at GaTech in March I had lunch with the principal of an ATL firm who said architect unemployment in ATL is between 40%-50%.
There are people in this country who are making and spending money. Finding those people is the key to any business, and while it can be difficult it certainly isn't impossible. Work generally doesn't come to you, you have to sniff it out and pursue it. Sometimes that means shifting directions slightly.
It is a fact that many successful people and businesses made their start during a recession or depression because they were able to recognize the weaknesses that led to the collapse of the current system and develop a business model which capitalized on that. Hats off to John Morefield, the founder of Architecture 5 cents for removing himself from the hire/fire architectural office scene. He offered his services directly to the people who needed them in a non-confrontational and very accessible manner and in a short time has been able to make a living doing this. Not to mention being featured in Arch Record, NY Times, CNN, etc.
I know not everyone can make it on their own, but it has worked and for those with the right mindset it can be a very viable option in this economy.
I'm just curious--- it seems like firms are seriously looking for BIM/Revit specialists and other software companies (Autodesk, etc) are all looking for architects to be consultants for their firms- and the pay is incredible. I realize that you have to have specialty knowledge of revit, etc, and I know it's not "Designing", but has anyone made this switch successfully?
"and what you don't know you can generally find through Google."
Nice...offer services you have no clue in how to provide. Architecture has really come full circle.
this is actually a really interesting argument, and i think points to why architects are generally losing influence and market share. historically an architect's services were comprised of a very specialized body of knowledge about the building industry; it took years of experience to build this knowledge and explains why architecture was generally an old man's profession. the internet has radically changed all that. now you can read a dozen articles on buildingscience.com and have an understanding of waterproofing that is more accurate and complete than many 25+ year professionals. even more, you don't have to be an architect to do that. anyone can use google to learn about building.
so what is the value of being an architect in the age of google? in my opinion, we are now simply a stamp. does a developer really need to hire a firm trying to support 100+ architects when he can hire a design-build contractor with one architect on staff and leave it to the trades to figure out how to build it? the profession is changing and very quickly. i would not underestimate the role of google in how much things have changed and instead of poo-pooing the "internet architect" i would learn to use the internet to your advantage before the jobs that we take for granted become increasingly obsolete.
"In high school we were given a series of orientation lectures by dedicated and well-meaning guidance counselors to help us select our future vocations. Eighteen years after graduation, I was employed by the International Business Machines Corporation in their Federal System Division doing human engineering work. Except for support personnel, there was not a single position in our building, where there were hundreds of employees, that existed when I was in high school. In learning theory terms, we know that we should teach what is transferable from the classroom to the outside world by concentrating on fundamentals that may be independent of and may even appear unrelated to contemporary problems."
Herschel Leibowitz, Progress in Modern Psychology: The Legacy of American Functionalism, p.28
Similar problem back in the sixties and seventies, the internet does compound it though, as ww notes
I have argued what Won Williams states multiple times over and over again.
And even when it comes to detailing... I mean, what is that these days? Going to a manufacturer website, click the log-in section, download a CAD/DXF file... CRTL + C, CRTL + V. Bampf! Fixture detailed.
Sure, there are some things that take years of experience to learn. There's a lot of other things that can now be called up instantly. It would obviously be preferable if one knew these things without searching for them.
However, I think its a bit of a travesty for punishing people who honestly answer, "I don't know but I will find out."
That's why my resume is mostly blank these days is because I at least say that I really do not know anything but I am quite incredible at finding anything out.
Oct 18, 10 2:02 pm ·
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I'm not a pessimist or an optimist; I'm a realist.
Reporting from the front lines in Portland, Oregon.
Two weeks ago, I applied for a part-time CAD job at a local company that manufactures various architectural accessories (mainly aluminum railing systems). They called me back, I got an interview, and then I waited. Finally, I decided to email them to get the lowdown on my competition. In short, I asked them how many applications they had received. Here was the response:
"We received about 150 applications within just a few days and had to turn the ad off to stop the flow of resumes. We did not expect that to happen with an ad for a part time drafting position."
My jaw just about hit the floor. I was thinking somewhere in the ballpark of 50 to 60 applicants. Imagine what the numbers would be for a full-time-with-benefits position.
Being the realist that I am, I patently refuse to believe anything that comes out of government officials' mouths regarding the state of unemployment in this country. And considering that election time is just around the corner, it's unlikely we'll receive any accurate employment numbers any time soon, lest Obama's approval ratings sink even lower.
So, rather than basing our understanding of the current job market on simple jobs lost vs. jobs gained numbers, which is all anyone in the mainstream is willing to report, it seems to me that a more accurate indication of the market is the jobs-to-applicants ratio, which for architecture-related jobs stands somewhere around 1:150 here in P-Town. Even assuming 100 of those applicants were monkeys who accidentally hit the wrong button on their keyboards, we're still talking a ratio of 1:50. Now, I'm hoping Portland is just an outlier on the bell curve, so to speak, but my gut tells me it's not.
So basically, I'm wondering if anyone out there has done the same type of research (specifically: asking potential employers how many apps they've gotten for job openings) and gotten some hard numbers. If so, feel free to put 'em down here. That way, maybe we can get a somewhat realistic view of the situation, since most of the douchebag economists in Washington don't seem to have a clue.
Truth hurts, but it's better than being lied to.
I've been told by offices they received over 500 applications in less than 2 days. And this was pretty recently.
Hang in there fella!
I'm in Portland too. It's kind of brutal out there. Portland also suffers from a combo of very poor economy and very appealing urban quality that brings in a lot of architects. If so many other cities didn't suck so much in terms of cohesive planning, that 1:150 ratio would be a bit lower. 1:100 or so.
Keep in mind that that was an entry level position. Anyone could do it. A recent job I interviewed for (but didn't get) was for a highly specialized position. They received around 120 applications in the course of few weeks, but only 12 applicants had the actual skills needed, and of those 6 got interviews. There is nothing preventing anyone from applying to any remotely relevant position. And that's exactly what's happening.
Unemployment in Portland for architects is around 40%. All of my engineering friends are gainfully employed though. We pay the price for choosing a career path with such a narrow focal range.
That too will change. And if not, we can always start a gang. Clockwork Orange style.
Thanks for the info, Steel. Unfortunately, I probably fall into the category of entry level, since I've yet to gain any meaningful experience since graduating in '08. But you're right: a lot of these positions are probably specialized, so the numbers I presented could be misleading in terms of the level of competition. I'm curious, are you currently employed?
Oh, and Cherith, whereabouts are you? I bigger city than Portland I presume if the numbers are that high...
In my city (Chicago) I'm hearing roughly 300 responses per ad. Which is kind of funny since there have been no ads actually posted for about a year now, at least... so these are 300 responses per rumor of a possible job.
df - the unemployment numbers are out there, reported as they always are. There are different numbers for different reports (ie payroll, etc.).
To think that they are "skewed" is ridiculous. Not telling the entire picture, of course, because they are limited snapshots of one particular faction of the economy (hence why there are so many reports, different interpretations of them, etc.). I guess it depends on where you are getting your information (I avoid the blatant headlines and try to read about what/why/when details).
This is how they are done, has nothing to do with who is in office.
Lastly, I've heard those numbers from several people. It is more or less easy to apply to as many positions are listed, regardless of what the specifics are (I mean, why wouldn't everyone apply for every job?).
Hey fella. Not employed, with just over 10 years of experience, I haven't even seen many job listings that would match my particular skills in the last year or so.
Also of note about Portland. Jobs aren't really advertised in these parts. It's all word of mouth. You gotta know the right people. It can be very frustrating at times. Try your best to run into other architects at the million brew-pubs we have around here.
@trace: Us does have a wonky way of measuring unemployment compared to other developed nations. This issue is also well documented. 15 hour part-time position counts you as fully employed, etc...
Luckily Bereau of Labor Statistics also provides alternate methods to measure that rate. U6 method accounts for those whose unemployment has run out, those who have just given up out of sheer desperation, and those who are severely underemployed.
Current unemployment rate under U6 is at just over 17% nation wide. Thats a wee bit higher than the 9.2% 'official' rate that's being used in the media.
della..as you graduated in '08, you're actually not in a terrible position. of the jobs I made it to the final few, the job always went to the recent grad. No offense, but you guys are cheaper than steelstuds and I with 5 or more years exp. In fact, I had one guy tell me that he really wanted to hire me because he thought I would contribute and fit in idealistically with the office, but he got out voted by the other two partners because the other person just got out of school and they could pay them 30% less then what I asked for (which was 30% less that what I was making in Boston). The ad was for someone with 3-5 yrs exp. and some project management exp. as well.
I know an office in Boston that got 300 resumes in 12 hours. Word back there is unemployment is 45%.
studs...we should run into some brew pubs again. della can come too!
@mantaray: thanks for the info. sorry to hear things are so rough in Chitown.
@trace: i don't think it's "ridiculous" to suggest that the numbers are skewed. leaving out important factors (such as job-to-applicant ratios) is one way of skewing reality to paint a rosy portrait of a failing economy. take for example GDP: this number is the most oft-quoted indicator (in the mainstream media, at least) of economic performance, and yet it is one of the worst indicators of actual economic conditions. if a company lays off workers here and ships jobs overseas, but makes a profit despite said layoffs, that contributes to positive GDP. another obvious and common misconception is that the performance of the stock market has anything to do with real economics. the DOW just keeps on climbing despite the fact that foreclosures and unemployment are are record highs. to think that the government makes no effort whatsoever to obscure information that is detrimental to its political standing is, i think, a bit naive.
@steel: wow, 10+ years experience and you can't find anything? yikes. guess i better pack up and move back to japan to teach english!
@THEaquino: thanks for the info. kind of a sad state of affairs that people who are actually more qualified to work are less likely to get hired. honestly, considering how rusty my skills are after not having done anything architecture related for nearly two years, i would feel really bad if i got hired instead of someone like you or Steel. anyway....i wonder if there's a connection between the high unemployment among architects and the fact that they tend to hang out at brew pubs....hahaha. i guess IPA is as good a cure as anything for the unemployment blues.
della_
This was for a position I had applied to in Philadelphia, which for me would have been a cross-country move. I'm in New Mexico and there is nothing for jobs here. The largest problem is that most of the neighboring states are scalping most of the work, which has left the local offices scrambling for anything they can get. My last office went from doing ground-up schools to doing reroofing and ADA improvement jobs. I'm at the point of applying to just about any position in the US (except for NYC because from what I hear, there is no way I will get paid to cover cost of living).
And as many have mentioned already, very few offices are actually advertising. It's unnecessary- most offices have a pool of people they laid-off they likely haven't found work and they can easily rehire them back- I know of at least one person from my class that happened to. Otherwise, I imagine that offices are getting enough unsolicited resumes a day to fill jobs as they are needed. I plan on taking that approach here in the next few weeks- picking a city, going through the AIA directory and sending a resume to EVERY office in the area. Once I exhaust that city, I'll go down the list to somewhere else. Start with places I could see myself moving to and working my way down until I get to El Paso. When that fails, I'm moving to China or jumping off a bridge.
"better pack up and move back to japan to teach english! "
Take me with you. Please.
As far as IPA goes, it tastes really yummy if you cry over it first. Very tangy!
Where in PDX are you? I'm always up for an informal drink (or five).
@Cherith:"until I get to El Paso" Zing!
We need more earthquakes and natural disasters to create an architectural need. Even those things have been outsourced overseas. I blame El Paso for all of this.
@Cherith: A fellow New Mexican! I was born there and lived there till '95. I go back now and then since my dad still lives there. he's actually friends with antoine predock, but even that wasn't enough to get a foot in the door! sorry to hear things are so bad there, too. and yeah, you're right about new york. a good friend of mine got a job in richard meier's model shop and makes $20K/a year and has to moonlight as a web designer. says if he's lucky he'll get moved up to the design floor in 6 months. that said, i'd kill to have a job like that. hahaha. anyway, i suggest you move to china and THEN jump off something, preferably the three gorges dam. what an awesome way to go.
@steel i'd gladly take you with me...assuming there are even jobs available. i'm heading to san fran next month to interview with one of the big three english companies in japan, but like everything it looks to be hypercompetitive. and the company i worked for in japan last year is apparently getting flooded with applicants. anyway, yeah, i'm always down for getting together, especially since i don't have too many friends in PDX anymore. hit me up some time: [email protected] i'm in beavertron and i don't have a car.
i generally ask this question when i have the opportunity to interview (or it comes up, anyway). i actually just got a call today (yay!) for a posting from craigslist from the 11th in the morning (i applied yesterday afternoon). dude voluntarily said he received over 300 applications (for a vague ad, no firm identified, etc). this is in chicago. and actually, my interview is on saturday. what does one wear to a saturday interview?
back in may, a large national firm here in chicago posted an ad for an intern architect on their website, not on any job board. it was posted on monday afternoon, by the time i felt good about my awesome cover letter, thursday morning, the opening had disappeared. anyway, i ended up meeting someone who worked there, and he said they received over 300 applications in under 48 hours, so they had to close it.
back in early november, i interviewed for a drafting job, also posted on craigslist (again in chicago). i don't remember how long the ad was up, but they said they received over 400 applications.
@prairie thanks for the info. sounds like Chitown is not the place to be...
fella, i regret coming back here after i finished grad school almost every day. i would advise just about anyone to stay away. portland sounds rough, but at least it's like hipster heaven, or something.
i've had 9 interviews (and 2 second interviews) in the past year, which doesn't sound so so bad, averaged out. unfortunately, three of those jobs apparently never materialized, and i'm still waiting on one (a second interview from june! but they keep saying they want to hire me, just that things aren't there yet). i am trying to get outta here
last position we advertised for was a part time office manager - bookkeeping, general office help, etc. - we listed the salary and # of days a week (14 and 2).
listed it on craigslist.
348 response in 3 days. had to take it down after day 2. of that, 3 had an mba in finance; about 12 had more than 15 years experience in the same position. 14 were trained architects and/or interns and/or recent grads openly admitting they were just trying to get a foot in the door. all in all, we had 39 we thought were 'qualified'. some of those were way overqualified. we winnowed it down to 6 that we thought were the best match, talked to all 6, interviewed 2, picked 1.
i was floored by the response. the last time we had looked for an office manager in 2006, we did the same m.o. - only got 30 or so responses in 2 weeks. so, yeah, i thought we'd get more, but nowhere near that many.
sorry - should note that this last ad was done late last year, probably around november.
So who got the job?
@outed: thanks for the info. whereabouts are you and have you guys done any more hiring of any kind since then?
friend of mine put an ad in archinect year and a half ago. he advertised it as $25 per/hour job. it was for a really interesting residential project. he got slammed here for being cheap (that was irrelevant because after all the costs of the project, he ended up making less than the applicant.).
however, +/- 200 people applied and he hired one with many years of experience who is very appreciative and helpful to my friend.
348 response in 3 days.
3 had an mba in finance
12 had more than 15 years experience in the same position.
14 were trained architects
This really makes me lose all hope of every finding any job, let alone one at my skill level and interest. It's disheartening to know that a Masters Degree and experience still means working at the mall.
della - we're in atlanta. we haven't hired architectural staff in a while (we're a small firm). we had to replace our office manager after her second child made her realize she wanted to focus on being a mom. hated to see her go, but completely understood.
paulo - we hired someone who was also an office manager for a civil firm that had lost enough work that they needed to go part time there. so, they're still doing work for both companies (us and them). she had no specialized education, just solid work experience in a professional services firm close enough to us. oddly, we got no responses from admin's that had architectural office exp.
cherith - i wouldn't give up hope - the mba types aren't going to be hired for this because they're a definite flight risk and we don't want to hire again in 3 months time. the people who had lots of experience time wise mostly didn't pass the proverbial smell test. the architects....well, i understand why they did it (and most were upfront about hoping it would convert to a studio position at some point), but see the first explanation above.
This thread is so depressing. I'm a May 09' BS grad and have yet to find an arch job. Have sent resumes too or applied to over 200 places (4 interviews). SMH. I'm debating going back to grad school but I don't even know if it's worth it. This has got to be the worst time ever to be coming out school. THE WORST!
Umm in my latest mid-size starchitect (already deep in the recession), every Friday, the admin staff made a "Resume clearance".
They quickly checked the CVs received the same week and selected the best to archive them. The remaining was put in a 20 x 14 inch IKEA plastic box (that was usually full)... for the next day the cleaners to put everything on the paper container.
And that was only paper applications; add to this the computer / email ones :)
@Hawkin: thanks for the info. where are you, btw?
I know the job market is incredibly competitive right now, but what about pursuing your own projects and being self employed? The reality is, you can go work for an office for 30% less than you would have made 2 or 3 years ago, or you can try your best to meet people and advertise your skills to people who need an architect, contractor, interior designer, etc. I remember reading about this guy: http://architecture5cents.com/ a while back. Very inspiring. If you've worked in the profession for more than a few years, you probably know enough to complete projects on your own and what you don't know you can generally find through Google.
There was also an interesting interview I read recently with Joshua Prince Ramus. One of the points he raised was that for generations, architecture was a profession that "ate their young". The recession has changed this and actually given an upper hand to those who are willing to work hard and develop their own practice. Worth a read: http://www.designboom.com/eng/interview/rex_architecture.html
"and what you don't know you can generally find through Google."
Nice...offer services you have no clue in how to provide. Architecture has really come full circle.
"those who are willing to work hard and develop their own practice."
And those who have the funds to make a go at it. What you are not taking into real consideration are things like debt, etc....and the non existence of credit...which one would need to help fund a project if one where not of wealth. We should all keep doing our own personal interests but to argue that as a solution to the lack of jobs is more than disingenuous...it is just stupid.
And having a Harvard grad snicker about connections is hardly inspiring...condescending is a bit more like it.
Greenville, SC, which until the downturn was a very hot market, jobs-wise, has arch unemployment around 40% -- as listed in the newspaper about six months ago. This does not include underemployment or those who've left the market. Don't know what the current number is. Seems hiring is picking up a bit but a very far way from where it would need to be to get back to how it was.
At a symposium at GaTech in March I had lunch with the principal of an ATL firm who said architect unemployment in ATL is between 40%-50%.
There are people in this country who are making and spending money. Finding those people is the key to any business, and while it can be difficult it certainly isn't impossible. Work generally doesn't come to you, you have to sniff it out and pursue it. Sometimes that means shifting directions slightly.
It is a fact that many successful people and businesses made their start during a recession or depression because they were able to recognize the weaknesses that led to the collapse of the current system and develop a business model which capitalized on that. Hats off to John Morefield, the founder of Architecture 5 cents for removing himself from the hire/fire architectural office scene. He offered his services directly to the people who needed them in a non-confrontational and very accessible manner and in a short time has been able to make a living doing this. Not to mention being featured in Arch Record, NY Times, CNN, etc.
I know not everyone can make it on their own, but it has worked and for those with the right mindset it can be a very viable option in this economy.
I'm just curious--- it seems like firms are seriously looking for BIM/Revit specialists and other software companies (Autodesk, etc) are all looking for architects to be consultants for their firms- and the pay is incredible. I realize that you have to have specialty knowledge of revit, etc, and I know it's not "Designing", but has anyone made this switch successfully?
Nice...offer services you have no clue in how to provide. Architecture has really come full circle.
this is actually a really interesting argument, and i think points to why architects are generally losing influence and market share. historically an architect's services were comprised of a very specialized body of knowledge about the building industry; it took years of experience to build this knowledge and explains why architecture was generally an old man's profession. the internet has radically changed all that. now you can read a dozen articles on buildingscience.com and have an understanding of waterproofing that is more accurate and complete than many 25+ year professionals. even more, you don't have to be an architect to do that. anyone can use google to learn about building.
so what is the value of being an architect in the age of google? in my opinion, we are now simply a stamp. does a developer really need to hire a firm trying to support 100+ architects when he can hire a design-build contractor with one architect on staff and leave it to the trades to figure out how to build it? the profession is changing and very quickly. i would not underestimate the role of google in how much things have changed and instead of poo-pooing the "internet architect" i would learn to use the internet to your advantage before the jobs that we take for granted become increasingly obsolete.
"In high school we were given a series of orientation lectures by dedicated and well-meaning guidance counselors to help us select our future vocations. Eighteen years after graduation, I was employed by the International Business Machines Corporation in their Federal System Division doing human engineering work. Except for support personnel, there was not a single position in our building, where there were hundreds of employees, that existed when I was in high school. In learning theory terms, we know that we should teach what is transferable from the classroom to the outside world by concentrating on fundamentals that may be independent of and may even appear unrelated to contemporary problems."
Herschel Leibowitz, Progress in Modern Psychology: The Legacy of American Functionalism, p.28
Similar problem back in the sixties and seventies, the internet does compound it though, as ww notes
I have argued what Won Williams states multiple times over and over again.
And even when it comes to detailing... I mean, what is that these days? Going to a manufacturer website, click the log-in section, download a CAD/DXF file... CRTL + C, CRTL + V. Bampf! Fixture detailed.
Sure, there are some things that take years of experience to learn. There's a lot of other things that can now be called up instantly. It would obviously be preferable if one knew these things without searching for them.
However, I think its a bit of a travesty for punishing people who honestly answer, "I don't know but I will find out."
That's why my resume is mostly blank these days is because I at least say that I really do not know anything but I am quite incredible at finding anything out.
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