I'm a mechanical engineer here in the SF Bay Area, and for a several years now, I've been thinking about going back to school for architecture. I even applied and was accepted to several schools for the previous school year, but chose not to go, because I saw the economy cratering, and it seemed crazy to leave a stable job and take on a bunch of debt for the chance to have a job that I thought I might like better than engineering.
Well, at the end of the year, I lost my job due to financial trouble at my company, and I took this as a sign to go for it.
I was admitted into the 3+ year program at the University of Washington in Seattle, and committed to go there. I even lined up an internship at an architecture firm in the San Francisco Bay area from April to September. I loved working there, and did pretty well (though it was mostly "fun" stuff like model building).
But as the school year approached, I began to get cold feet. I had been applying somewhat passively for engineering jobs (in order to qualify for unemployment) and a few months ago, I applied at a small start up doing green energy tech. They got back to me, and I interviewed with them, basically because of my cold-feet about architecture and moving to Seattle. I didn't think I did well in the interview, and didn't really expect anything to come of it. But lo and behold, last week they got back to me with an offer.
So now I'm sitting here, all my stuff is packed up for the move, classes start in a week up in Seattle, and I don't know what to do.
I'm scared of moving. I'm scared of taking on a bunch of debt to finance my education. I'm scared I wouldn't be able to cut it. I'm scared that I won't be able to find a job coming out of school. I'm scared it won't be worth it.
I'm thinking about calling the whole thing off, and just starting the job, and letting go of what more and more seems like a crazy idea of being an architect.
There are so many really interesting green energy tech startups. It makes me wish I did engineering instead of architecture.
If I were you, I'd jump on the job without thinking twice. Some true innovation is coming from that field right now. Architecture has been kind of stagnant for a while. New green technologies are the most interesting thing that's happening in arch. I would so rather work on research and development side of that equation than the implementation.
My advice would be to try to get a MBA at the same time, or as close to that as you can. Focus on real estate.
It'll give you the some flexibility in the long run, which we can all see now as being a huge asset in this economy.
You've got good questions you need to figure out (the only one I'd delete is the "scared I won't be able to cut it", no one knows until you give it 110%). Seattle is a great city, I'd move there!
But it seems you've thought this all through and wanted it for a while. I'd go for it, if I were you, just make sure you get those business classes/mba at the same time.
Let me guess...You are making more money now on your job as an engineer than you would as an architect... Am I right? Nowadays archis are starting from $0 - 40K/ Y depending on location and luck...so...
If you are not ready, see what you can do to delay the school as Trace suggested and go from there. I don't like to blow people's balloons, but I think you are on the right route thinking about acquiring debt. You got to be careful.
If you don't get jobs as an architect you also can go back to your engi profession and pay for those student loans.
the startup is developing a novel small scale hydroelectric power plant. It's interesting, but I wouldn't call it a dream job. Tgatwoukd be architecture; but I don't know if that job is really going to be out there in 5-10-15 years down the line.
@trace
They don't offer deferrals, unfortunately, or I'd have asked for one.
My dad is an accountant, so I definately appreciate how important the business side can be.
I just wish I could make a decision and be done with it.
right now I'm making $0. But at this offered job, I'd be making more than $40k a year. The Job starts out as an "internship", and I'd be making about $3-4k a month on a 4 month contract if I do well, all indications are
that I'd be brought on full time and be makng more than that I'd guess.
@jmanganelli
I'd probably have regrets. I know when I pulled the plug last year I regretted the decision. I also know ill regret leaving the SF bay area for Seattle.
But if I go w/ architecture and in 15 years I'm not doing design work, i don't think it would be worth it. I'd really like to work at/ have a firm like the one I worked at over the summer ( small firm doing progressive residential and civic architecture) but I know that's a low probability.
So maybe doing mechanical design as a career and designig furniture on the side like I've been doing is the way to go.
you're right, it is ... and i hesitated to post at all ... but it bears consideration ... especially if you don't assume that one answer is better than the other ... if you're sober with yourself, honest, no matter what the answer, it should be easier to live with, and personally, i think either is entirely justifiable, from the right perspective
IlliniRunner: I know a lot of engineers in Portland area working in a bunch of solar cell startups. It's really fascinating stuff. Not only are they happy with their work, they get to keep very regular hours and their skills are in huge demand. This pretty much describes the opposite of architectural job :)
Knowledge of efficient technologies will only be more in demand 5-10-15 years down the road. The whole green industry is in its infancy. It's kind of like taking a time machine back to '70 and investing all your efforts into a computer career. Anyone involved in computer startups back then did pretty well for themselves.
my dad gave me some good advice, which helps me. he said, imagine each scenario going horribly awry. What is the worst you can imagine if things go wrong? Let your dreams momentarily be crushed. Then consider, if it is going to be that bad, which bad alternative will you be more comfortable living with? If you can be comfortable with either or both of them, then it is a valid option. If you are not comfortable with one or both of the worst case scenarios, then you should probably reconsider whether you really want to pursue that future.
whatever, he's got a point --- dream, go after the best, but prepare for the worst and you are less likely to get submarined or blindsided by life, which means you are in a better position to navigate to your dream
my dad told me to do what i wanted as long as he didn't expect him to pay for it.
both options seem viable to me and neither seems like it will necessarily fail.
i am certain you can cut architecture school. it isn't hard. don't worry that side of things as long as you are willing to work hard.
not sure if it helps, but i think you can always bring the engineering into architecture field. the other way round i don't think would be easy.
if it seems like you want more technical career after starting school i don't see why you couldn't start cultivating that sort of a path while still in school, and then when you get out you could probs go either way and make the choice then when you are better informed. right now you just don't know enough to make a decision.
i am guessing a few years down the road there will be jobs again, especially for someone with technical expertise in green tech...
perhaps i am naive. but what the hell, life is always a struggle and 5 year plans are not really useful ways to live.
Go with green tech. I don't think that path is going to evaporate, like architecture does every few years/decades. Why assume so much debt for such a risky return? You may not be as happy at work, but you'll have money to pursue hobbies that WILL keep you balanced.
In all reality, if you really want to position yourself to have that small design firm in the future, there are a least a couple of thing it is going to require.
1. a certain degree of inherent talent that you would cultivate in school
and
2. Three plus years of working CONSISTENT 70-80-90-100 hour weeks during the school years. Ask yourself I you are willing and physically capable of doing that. Making cool impressive stuff takes time, it's just a fact.
Then, with that amazing portfolio, you try and position yourself at whichever firm you think will best suit your needs for one day having your own practice...
If I have any advice on decision-making (which I have struggled with let me tell you) is to go with your gut feeling. Did you feel really [REALLY] excited when you were accepted to UW? or when you were offered the job, did you think yes! this will be great and exciting!
in my opinion, you will do well in either. You seem to be generally interested in both, but once you jump to one side of the fence, you have to make sure you are committed, and not even think about how good the other decision would have been after you make it.
If your drive is truly for architecture, make it happen. But if you are unsure you really want that as a career and want to continue doing engineering work, take that as a cue.
Most of all, listen to that initial voice you may not have heeded when each opportunity offered itself. If you keep seeking opportunities, you will end up with more decisions than you wish you had!
Keep your head straight and find out where you really want to be.
i was struck by how many times you stated in your original post that you were either "scared" or had "cold-feet" or were "passively" pursing x. what's the fdr line? "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." if you do go to seattle and second guess every little decision you make, you will fail. that's just straight up. i don't think anyone here can or should tell you what to do, but whatever direction you decide to pursue, go with confidence and leave the trepidation behind you. it's baggage you don't need. [/arm chair psychologist]
Fogey - I remember your comment in that other thread and I believe I responded to it there as well. While I certinaly wouldn't push anyone to pursue a career in architecture right now, I also don't like telling people that they can be a "designer" without a degree.
Problem for Architect's out there is we have the one job where everybody is an expert. Seems the only thing people will defer our expertise to is pumping out the CAD.
The Monday morning quarterbacking of Architect's and our work is huge. It doesn't help that most people have no earthly idea what Architects really do other than draw fancy pictures. Telling someone that they can "just be a designer" only encourages the public misconception that anybody can be an expert on Architecture.
Seriously, most people think of our work as an expensive luxury when it comes to middle income homes. Where do you think that attitude comes from?
Wow. I say go for the job. You can always reapply to school at some point in the future, but it seems to me you have an amazing opportunity to do cool stuff.. U-DUB will probably even understand if you explain to them what happened.
also, IlliniRunner, if you're the civic minded type, cleantech startups are exactly what the economy and the country needs now. You'll be doing good AND making money ;)
i'll say this, if concern about finances, debt, money, etc, enters into your decision making process, and whether or not going to architecture school is the right thing; then becoming an architect is not for you. those that go to seminary and become leaders of churches, dont ask themselves about debt or the cost of going; it's a calling.
go and be what you know you should be; an engineer, working on green tech. take the job.
Honestly, don't give up on your dream but... The return on investment may not be in favor of going to school...
*Ask tro defer your acceptance*... Go to the green tech startup company and get that experience, make somre more money and save up... Honestly, that sounds a hella lot more of a unique experience than what you could do working in architecture right now... Bear in mind that you can always go to architecture school... You might not find another green tech startup opportunity... Those kinds of experience, even if you choose later on to study and pursue a career in architecture will be valuable life experience that will make you a more informed designer... Have a different take on things... Worst case, if the job is not interesting, nothing lost, you made some savings and you can go to school next year...
Architecture school *is* fun, it's valuable, you do learn to be creative and think outside the box, and focus on conceptual thinking, design tools that will be valuable to you while working in the field in school... You think at varying scales, and look at space a differently, different scales of detail that honestly, interior designers for example who don't attend architecture school seem less equipped to deal with IMHO... So in my opinion being a designer is not the same as being an architect... I disagree with those who think so... Non architect designers tend IMHO not to have certain conceptual perspectives that architects have picked up in school...
That said, how important is all of that? It depends what you want to do... There are other kinds of creatives out there doing more interesting work than architects right now, and possibly making more money... For example: environmental graphic designers... Print graphics... Industrial designers... Furniture designers... Communications designers and interface designers... Creative directors working for ad agencies...
There is alot out there, you don't *need* to be an architect to do cool shit... and you won't necessarily make more money... Architects do *buildings*, that is what the focus is... Just be clear that is your passion...
Also bear in mind regarding *working* in architecture: it is not all glamorous, not all design, and you should be prepared to work on some things which are not all great projects, not all exciting... Especially in this economy, the work you do may not always be super creative... Sometimes you will be building up your experience, learning things, but but necessarily excited about that next restroom layout or permit application or code and egress review you are doing for a project that may or may not be the most exciting thing you have had to deal with... Do you enjoy getting your hands dirty? Are you going to be willing to learn about and deal with door hardware and coordinating drawings with all consultants, knowing a bit about these other things as well, dealing with finishes, all aspects, drawing details, thinking about structure as well as mechanical and plumbing etc. but depending on consultants as well? Do you want to think about things like a partition schedule and door schedule, architectural specifications, finish schedule and plans and elevations, sections, managing a project, reviewing casework submittals, laying out furniture and planning out a space as well as doing overall building layouts, rooms, doing graphic presentations, 2D and 3D, working with ne technologies and software most of the time... BIM, possibly building physical models, etc... Coordinating the drawings from all design disciplines rather than just focusing on your own part... Restrooms... Stairs... Cabinets... Furniture... Lighting... Finishes... Equipment... Building envelope... Acoustics... LEED... Assembling a project manual... Meetings! You probably can't just do the work which can be frustrating at times... So much is coordination and when do you have time to draw stuff?? In a bad economy, even if you have work, it may not be the glamorous stuff... It may be just a job... Bathroom tile interest you? How about millwork - how a backsplash works? It's not all that creative, which is *okay*... You *will* get to work on interesting stuff sometimes, work with all these other interesting design professions, work with engineers, graphic designers, interior designers, landscape, etc... You will have to deal with the city, with clients, all types... It's probably a little more stressful IMHO than mechanical engineering where you can be at least confident in knowing a whole lot and being the expert on *one thing* rather than having to have one toe touching everything... And... Layoffs! (Not that there aren't layoffs in other disciplines, in engineering etc. but... Architecture firms got hit hard, it is cyclical like any in the AEC industry so some job chang is to be expected)... So... That is working life of an architect... Is that what you want to do? Maybe you get to do a competition or something, more conceptual design stuff, but what I described above is basically project work...
Something to think about... Is that what you expect it to be? Are you interested in those aspects of building?
Also: you might also be able to integrate your engineering knowledge with architecture... Mechanical designers can work on creative innovative stuff too... Innovative building skins, mechanical systems can be cool too...
Do you like architectural details? How something goes together? How a finish works or a wall or a stair? Also, planning... At different scales, how the thing works with the rest of the city or context? Do you care about window treatments? Or door hardware? Parking requirements? Or audio visual or other equipment?
Well there are different kinds of buildings... Different markets... Some people work in retail design, some do single family homes, there's corporate commercial work (workplaces and commercial office buildings), healthcare facilities, airports, university buildings, schools, law courts...
@bRink and @OldFogey: I really wish i could defer, but the school doesn't offer deferrals. How do I know? Well, as I said in the original post, I had applied and was accepted there for the previous school year, but decided to pull my admission and re-apply for this coming school year.
I don't think I'll get a third bite at the apple. I know there are other schools, but to do this all over again next year....
You can always apply again... There are very few final choices...
On the other hand, is what I described above what you want to do career wise? Be a project architect? If that sounds like what you were expecting and looking forward to as a career, go for it... As a mechanical engineer, you probably have a pretty good idea what architects do, so if you would rather be working on the architectural side of design, maybe you are making a good move... Only you can know what your passions are, you most likely will not make more money as an architect than as a mechanical engineer with more experience but money is not everything...
It's important to do what you want, you will have no regrets. If you don't mind passing up on the mechanical engineering job, that's fine...
Question: what does th at green tech startup do exactly? How much will you be paid, and what potential is there for you to grow with the company? Opportunity cost to consider also is: if you get in on the ground floor with an innovative company you may be passing up an opportunity to be part of something really exciting, have a really successful career, imagine if somebody had a job offer from Google before it was google and passed it up to go get an architecture degree... :P
Also... What are you good at? Are you good at Mechanical Engineering? Do you want to do it going forward? Were you happy working as a mechanical consultant? Or do you think you would be better in something more creative, and where your focus of expertise is broader and less deep, but where you can see different aspects of building, more of a generalist? What is your strength and passion? This ought to inform the correct path for you, it's different for everybody... Are you generally someone who likes art and social science as well as the physical science aspects of things? I think architecture design decisions, sometimes there is more of a human and subjective aspect to decisions, you need to feel comfortable with there not being a best answer, but just a smart answer that you can defend and communicate well to a client... Do you like selling? Talking to a client, selling a design? Architects often need to be communicators whether that is coordinating between all the consultants, or internal architectural team members, other design disciplines, or with the contractor and client. Is that something you like: running a meeting, coordinating, presenting a design and addressing concerns all the time, answering to everybody?
In other words, if you are asking if it is a smart return on investment vs. taking the mechanical engineering working at the green tech startup, the answer probably is NO (you can probably confirm how much you would make...) Do the math. Calculate the opportunity cost...
But that doesn't mean it is the wrong decision to go to architecture school, you only live once, and I guess money is not everything, so have no regrets and follow your gut as well as your brain...
The company is developing a novel small scale hydroelectric power plant. It's useful for areas where you don't have a big dam, but a smaller-size drop, like in irrigation canals, and smaller rivers.
It's an initial 4 month contract, with the potential of going on full time. The initial contract is coached as an "internship", and the pay isn't fantastic, but not terrible either (About the equivalent of 40k per year)
That actually sounds pretty interesting... If it were me, I would take that job... The temporary contract part is one thing... Not sure... Opportunity cost is also: tuition expense, moving expense, plus lost income... Lost job opportunity... The "may lead to full-time" thing, IMHO usually pans out, it is probably in this economy companies have some uncertainty so they play safe, if the company does well enough and you work out well enough then you'll probably get a job that is more permanent...
Small scale hydro electric is pretty interesting... You will have a foothold in alternative energy industry, that is an up and coming huge thing IMHO... You will always be able to go to architecture school IMHO, if you got in before, you will get in again, honestly it is not that hard to get in, it is excelling while in school that is the trick in architecture school, and getting interesting jobs out of school...
Good luck, on the end it's your choice, listen to your instincts, not an online forum! 40 k sounds about what you might be able get *after* graduating from the University of Washington with an M Arch working in Seattle by the way... Maybe more, maybe less depending on your experience and the type of office... So return on investment wise, the M Arch will not make immediate return... Plus there are alot of unemployed architects put there at the moment and this job is a sure thing...
There are also btw a number of emerging green tech companies in alternative energy in Seattle... Having that experience may be nice to have job hunting here if in the future doing an arch degree you need another internship or summer job... Or you may find you were more interested in that industry...
By all means pursue your architecture education, but keep a few things in mind. You are looking at 3 more years of school, then a 3 year "internship" at the end of which you might be able to take the licensing exams. It is more likely that you will be licensed 5 years out of school. So in 6-8 years you will be where you were 5 years ago (or whenever you were a new graduate).
Also, as you have probably learned in engineering, most jobs aren't what they are cracked up to be, and architecture is arguably the least understood profession of all. The general public's perception of being an architect is not even close to reality.
Im happy you had a fun time building models for a nice firm, maybe even playing in sketchup a little, but make sure you think you will enjoy spending most of your day drafting and detailing VERY SMALL and technical parts of buildings before you embark on a career change.
The type of architect you want to be (the one people think all architects are, the "visionary) is a tough gig to get. Most firms have one, and they are 50+ years old and have paid their dues... The rest of us unceasingly produce their vision.
I feel like it is most likely that you role in a firm will naturally evolve into the "engineer" either because that is what you will be most comfortable with or because they found out you have a degree in engineering and that is where they put you. And it doesn't sound like this is what you want to do...
if you do take the job, it could make you even more competitive if you reapply to arch school, if it matches well with the sort of programs to which you apply and the work of interest to you in the field -- if you ultimately want to work closer to sustainable architecture/research.
if not, then even if it is novel in and of itself, if you know for a fact that it is not where you want to go, then maybe even though it is a great opportunity for someone, maybe it is not for you and is wasting your time.
"they are 50+ years old and have paid their dues."
Visionaries must surely be geniuses, polymaths or idiot savants. But equting vision with age is as short-sighted as the short-sightedness that comes from age-related glaucoma!
This is an inherent problem in architecture! Just because you've spent 50 years shitting out details doesn't necessarily give you the right or the skill set "to be creative."
It sure makes it easier.
But one should really leave the creativity to aforementioned geniuses, drug addicts and the functionally insane.
I would take that job... Weave that alternative energy knowledge into whatever career you pursue in architecture... I imagine you would not gave applied to that job if you were not interested in that right?
"But equting vision with age is as short-sighted as the short-sightedness that comes from age-related glaucoma!"
I completely agree with you. Design should be about talent, not age, but I think you are smart enough to realize this isn't how it works in the traditional ABC Architecture Firm. Next time you see a firm with my than 15 people with some 26 or 27 year old installed as the Lead Designer let me know... It isn't too likely that a firm with a few partners is going to pick up redlines for a kid out of school who is 25 years their junior just because he has talent.
Yes, but then you also run into the problem in professional services I like to refer to as "branding syndrome."
In a "branding syndrome" scenario, you run into the problem of clients wanting a specific brand synonymous with a specific person. The client sought out the specific brand and only values the brand as an extension of the icon that brand is.
When a firm or a label is small enough for one-on-one client interaction, 'branding syndrome' is a highly lucrative business model.
But what happens when 4 clients turns into 30? Can a branded leader be spread so thin?
The answer is 'No.'
Now, developing a brand as a collective of individuals-- even with iconic leadership-- solves this problem in part. No singular individual or individual taste comprises the entire appeal of the firm.
In a 'branded syndrome' office, the brand, or leadership, essentially has to make and develop clones of the original icon in order to pass off copies as originals. In this scenario, this only succeeds as long as the client is none the wiser.
So, for an office like OMA, contracting OMA does not necessarily mean you're contracting Rem Koolhaus. This would partially explain why OMA, as an office, has many significant 'brands' that have splintered off.
In a more perfect scenario, in my opinion, the skilled, talented and experienced leadership should be providing just that-- leadership. They should be directing the architectural staff to be more independent, they should be coordinating the support staff to ensure the producers are taken care of and their only real vested interest in the work should be towards approving final designs and final documentation.
If you're going to run a business as a "branded syndrome" business... you'll literally end up be redoing everything you've paid people to do for you.
In simpler terms, no one buys "Nike" or "Gucci" shoes because so-and-so is the leader designer. They buy them because Nike and Gucci have crafted a brand as being a well-run business that provides quality products.
Sep 25, 10 8:57 pm ·
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My bags are packed, but I'm not ready to go
I'm a mechanical engineer here in the SF Bay Area, and for a several years now, I've been thinking about going back to school for architecture. I even applied and was accepted to several schools for the previous school year, but chose not to go, because I saw the economy cratering, and it seemed crazy to leave a stable job and take on a bunch of debt for the chance to have a job that I thought I might like better than engineering.
Well, at the end of the year, I lost my job due to financial trouble at my company, and I took this as a sign to go for it.
I was admitted into the 3+ year program at the University of Washington in Seattle, and committed to go there. I even lined up an internship at an architecture firm in the San Francisco Bay area from April to September. I loved working there, and did pretty well (though it was mostly "fun" stuff like model building).
But as the school year approached, I began to get cold feet. I had been applying somewhat passively for engineering jobs (in order to qualify for unemployment) and a few months ago, I applied at a small start up doing green energy tech. They got back to me, and I interviewed with them, basically because of my cold-feet about architecture and moving to Seattle. I didn't think I did well in the interview, and didn't really expect anything to come of it. But lo and behold, last week they got back to me with an offer.
So now I'm sitting here, all my stuff is packed up for the move, classes start in a week up in Seattle, and I don't know what to do.
I'm scared of moving. I'm scared of taking on a bunch of debt to finance my education. I'm scared I wouldn't be able to cut it. I'm scared that I won't be able to find a job coming out of school. I'm scared it won't be worth it.
I'm thinking about calling the whole thing off, and just starting the job, and letting go of what more and more seems like a crazy idea of being an architect.
So, flame away archinectors. What should I do?
There are so many really interesting green energy tech startups. It makes me wish I did engineering instead of architecture.
If I were you, I'd jump on the job without thinking twice. Some true innovation is coming from that field right now. Architecture has been kind of stagnant for a while. New green technologies are the most interesting thing that's happening in arch. I would so rather work on research and development side of that equation than the implementation.
Your call.
My advice would be to try to get a MBA at the same time, or as close to that as you can. Focus on real estate.
It'll give you the some flexibility in the long run, which we can all see now as being a huge asset in this economy.
You've got good questions you need to figure out (the only one I'd delete is the "scared I won't be able to cut it", no one knows until you give it 110%). Seattle is a great city, I'd move there!
But it seems you've thought this all through and wanted it for a while. I'd go for it, if I were you, just make sure you get those business classes/mba at the same time.
Whooops! Totally missed the job part.
Can you defer the schooling? If so, give the startup a shot.
when you are looking back in ten, twenty years, what do think you will regret less? taking the tech start up job or going to arch school?
Let me guess...You are making more money now on your job as an engineer than you would as an architect... Am I right? Nowadays archis are starting from $0 - 40K/ Y depending on location and luck...so...
If you are not ready, see what you can do to delay the school as Trace suggested and go from there. I don't like to blow people's balloons, but I think you are on the right route thinking about acquiring debt. You got to be careful.
If you don't get jobs as an architect you also can go back to your engi profession and pay for those student loans.
JM that's a loaded question man! What are you now, a catholic priest? :)
@steelstuds
the startup is developing a novel small scale hydroelectric power plant. It's interesting, but I wouldn't call it a dream job. Tgatwoukd be architecture; but I don't know if that job is really going to be out there in 5-10-15 years down the line.
@trace
They don't offer deferrals, unfortunately, or I'd have asked for one.
My dad is an accountant, so I definately appreciate how important the business side can be.
I just wish I could make a decision and be done with it.
@purpurina
right now I'm making $0. But at this offered job, I'd be making more than $40k a year. The Job starts out as an "internship", and I'd be making about $3-4k a month on a 4 month contract if I do well, all indications are
that I'd be brought on full time and be makng more than that I'd guess.
@jmanganelli
I'd probably have regrets. I know when I pulled the plug last year I regretted the decision. I also know ill regret leaving the SF bay area for Seattle.
But if I go w/ architecture and in 15 years I'm not doing design work, i don't think it would be worth it. I'd really like to work at/ have a firm like the one I worked at over the summer ( small firm doing progressive residential and civic architecture) but I know that's a low probability.
So maybe doing mechanical design as a career and designig furniture on the side like I've been doing is the way to go.
I just don't know.
you're right, it is ... and i hesitated to post at all ... but it bears consideration ... especially if you don't assume that one answer is better than the other ... if you're sober with yourself, honest, no matter what the answer, it should be easier to live with, and personally, i think either is entirely justifiable, from the right perspective
IlliniRunner: I know a lot of engineers in Portland area working in a bunch of solar cell startups. It's really fascinating stuff. Not only are they happy with their work, they get to keep very regular hours and their skills are in huge demand. This pretty much describes the opposite of architectural job :)
Knowledge of efficient technologies will only be more in demand 5-10-15 years down the road. The whole green industry is in its infancy. It's kind of like taking a time machine back to '70 and investing all your efforts into a computer career. Anyone involved in computer startups back then did pretty well for themselves.
my dad gave me some good advice, which helps me. he said, imagine each scenario going horribly awry. What is the worst you can imagine if things go wrong? Let your dreams momentarily be crushed. Then consider, if it is going to be that bad, which bad alternative will you be more comfortable living with? If you can be comfortable with either or both of them, then it is a valid option. If you are not comfortable with one or both of the worst case scenarios, then you should probably reconsider whether you really want to pursue that future.
JM your dad's a dick! :)
whatever, he's got a point --- dream, go after the best, but prepare for the worst and you are less likely to get submarined or blindsided by life, which means you are in a better position to navigate to your dream
my dad told me to do what i wanted as long as he didn't expect him to pay for it.
both options seem viable to me and neither seems like it will necessarily fail.
i am certain you can cut architecture school. it isn't hard. don't worry that side of things as long as you are willing to work hard.
not sure if it helps, but i think you can always bring the engineering into architecture field. the other way round i don't think would be easy.
if it seems like you want more technical career after starting school i don't see why you couldn't start cultivating that sort of a path while still in school, and then when you get out you could probs go either way and make the choice then when you are better informed. right now you just don't know enough to make a decision.
i am guessing a few years down the road there will be jobs again, especially for someone with technical expertise in green tech...
perhaps i am naive. but what the hell, life is always a struggle and 5 year plans are not really useful ways to live.
Go with green tech. I don't think that path is going to evaporate, like architecture does every few years/decades. Why assume so much debt for such a risky return? You may not be as happy at work, but you'll have money to pursue hobbies that WILL keep you balanced.
In all reality, if you really want to position yourself to have that small design firm in the future, there are a least a couple of thing it is going to require.
1. a certain degree of inherent talent that you would cultivate in school
and
2. Three plus years of working CONSISTENT 70-80-90-100 hour weeks during the school years. Ask yourself I you are willing and physically capable of doing that. Making cool impressive stuff takes time, it's just a fact.
Then, with that amazing portfolio, you try and position yourself at whichever firm you think will best suit your needs for one day having your own practice...
If I have any advice on decision-making (which I have struggled with let me tell you) is to go with your gut feeling. Did you feel really [REALLY] excited when you were accepted to UW? or when you were offered the job, did you think yes! this will be great and exciting!
in my opinion, you will do well in either. You seem to be generally interested in both, but once you jump to one side of the fence, you have to make sure you are committed, and not even think about how good the other decision would have been after you make it.
If your drive is truly for architecture, make it happen. But if you are unsure you really want that as a career and want to continue doing engineering work, take that as a cue.
Most of all, listen to that initial voice you may not have heeded when each opportunity offered itself. If you keep seeking opportunities, you will end up with more decisions than you wish you had!
Keep your head straight and find out where you really want to be.
i was struck by how many times you stated in your original post that you were either "scared" or had "cold-feet" or were "passively" pursing x. what's the fdr line? "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." if you do go to seattle and second guess every little decision you make, you will fail. that's just straight up. i don't think anyone here can or should tell you what to do, but whatever direction you decide to pursue, go with confidence and leave the trepidation behind you. it's baggage you don't need. [/arm chair psychologist]
Fogey - I remember your comment in that other thread and I believe I responded to it there as well. While I certinaly wouldn't push anyone to pursue a career in architecture right now, I also don't like telling people that they can be a "designer" without a degree.
Problem for Architect's out there is we have the one job where everybody is an expert. Seems the only thing people will defer our expertise to is pumping out the CAD.
The Monday morning quarterbacking of Architect's and our work is huge. It doesn't help that most people have no earthly idea what Architects really do other than draw fancy pictures. Telling someone that they can "just be a designer" only encourages the public misconception that anybody can be an expert on Architecture.
Seriously, most people think of our work as an expensive luxury when it comes to middle income homes. Where do you think that attitude comes from?
@won williams
Thanks for the advice. I'm well aware of this baggage I'm carrying around. It's more like a steamer trunk. I always question and second guess myself.
And I'm sure I'm going to beat myself up whichever way I go.
Wow. I say go for the job. You can always reapply to school at some point in the future, but it seems to me you have an amazing opportunity to do cool stuff.. U-DUB will probably even understand if you explain to them what happened.
also, IlliniRunner, if you're the civic minded type, cleantech startups are exactly what the economy and the country needs now. You'll be doing good AND making money ;)
i'll say this, if concern about finances, debt, money, etc, enters into your decision making process, and whether or not going to architecture school is the right thing; then becoming an architect is not for you. those that go to seminary and become leaders of churches, dont ask themselves about debt or the cost of going; it's a calling.
go and be what you know you should be; an engineer, working on green tech. take the job.
"And I'm sure I'm going to beat myself up whichever way I go. "
wow. then you're already an architect on the inside!:P
Man, I just don't know. So many folks here are saying don't go, but it sucks to simply give up on my dream.
I just don't know if that dream is worth the cost.
Honestly, don't give up on your dream but... The return on investment may not be in favor of going to school...
*Ask tro defer your acceptance*... Go to the green tech startup company and get that experience, make somre more money and save up... Honestly, that sounds a hella lot more of a unique experience than what you could do working in architecture right now... Bear in mind that you can always go to architecture school... You might not find another green tech startup opportunity... Those kinds of experience, even if you choose later on to study and pursue a career in architecture will be valuable life experience that will make you a more informed designer... Have a different take on things... Worst case, if the job is not interesting, nothing lost, you made some savings and you can go to school next year...
Architecture school *is* fun, it's valuable, you do learn to be creative and think outside the box, and focus on conceptual thinking, design tools that will be valuable to you while working in the field in school... You think at varying scales, and look at space a differently, different scales of detail that honestly, interior designers for example who don't attend architecture school seem less equipped to deal with IMHO... So in my opinion being a designer is not the same as being an architect... I disagree with those who think so... Non architect designers tend IMHO not to have certain conceptual perspectives that architects have picked up in school...
That said, how important is all of that? It depends what you want to do... There are other kinds of creatives out there doing more interesting work than architects right now, and possibly making more money... For example: environmental graphic designers... Print graphics... Industrial designers... Furniture designers... Communications designers and interface designers... Creative directors working for ad agencies...
There is alot out there, you don't *need* to be an architect to do cool shit... and you won't necessarily make more money... Architects do *buildings*, that is what the focus is... Just be clear that is your passion...
Also bear in mind regarding *working* in architecture: it is not all glamorous, not all design, and you should be prepared to work on some things which are not all great projects, not all exciting... Especially in this economy, the work you do may not always be super creative... Sometimes you will be building up your experience, learning things, but but necessarily excited about that next restroom layout or permit application or code and egress review you are doing for a project that may or may not be the most exciting thing you have had to deal with... Do you enjoy getting your hands dirty? Are you going to be willing to learn about and deal with door hardware and coordinating drawings with all consultants, knowing a bit about these other things as well, dealing with finishes, all aspects, drawing details, thinking about structure as well as mechanical and plumbing etc. but depending on consultants as well? Do you want to think about things like a partition schedule and door schedule, architectural specifications, finish schedule and plans and elevations, sections, managing a project, reviewing casework submittals, laying out furniture and planning out a space as well as doing overall building layouts, rooms, doing graphic presentations, 2D and 3D, working with ne technologies and software most of the time... BIM, possibly building physical models, etc... Coordinating the drawings from all design disciplines rather than just focusing on your own part... Restrooms... Stairs... Cabinets... Furniture... Lighting... Finishes... Equipment... Building envelope... Acoustics... LEED... Assembling a project manual... Meetings! You probably can't just do the work which can be frustrating at times... So much is coordination and when do you have time to draw stuff?? In a bad economy, even if you have work, it may not be the glamorous stuff... It may be just a job... Bathroom tile interest you? How about millwork - how a backsplash works? It's not all that creative, which is *okay*... You *will* get to work on interesting stuff sometimes, work with all these other interesting design professions, work with engineers, graphic designers, interior designers, landscape, etc... You will have to deal with the city, with clients, all types... It's probably a little more stressful IMHO than mechanical engineering where you can be at least confident in knowing a whole lot and being the expert on *one thing* rather than having to have one toe touching everything... And... Layoffs! (Not that there aren't layoffs in other disciplines, in engineering etc. but... Architecture firms got hit hard, it is cyclical like any in the AEC industry so some job chang is to be expected)... So... That is working life of an architect... Is that what you want to do? Maybe you get to do a competition or something, more conceptual design stuff, but what I described above is basically project work...
Something to think about... Is that what you expect it to be? Are you interested in those aspects of building?
Also: you might also be able to integrate your engineering knowledge with architecture... Mechanical designers can work on creative innovative stuff too... Innovative building skins, mechanical systems can be cool too...
Do you like architectural details? How something goes together? How a finish works or a wall or a stair? Also, planning... At different scales, how the thing works with the rest of the city or context? Do you care about window treatments? Or door hardware? Parking requirements? Or audio visual or other equipment?
Well there are different kinds of buildings... Different markets... Some people work in retail design, some do single family homes, there's corporate commercial work (workplaces and commercial office buildings), healthcare facilities, airports, university buildings, schools, law courts...
@bRink and @OldFogey: I really wish i could defer, but the school doesn't offer deferrals. How do I know? Well, as I said in the original post, I had applied and was accepted there for the previous school year, but decided to pull my admission and re-apply for this coming school year.
I don't think I'll get a third bite at the apple. I know there are other schools, but to do this all over again next year....
I need to fish or cut bait.
You can always apply again... There are very few final choices...
On the other hand, is what I described above what you want to do career wise? Be a project architect? If that sounds like what you were expecting and looking forward to as a career, go for it... As a mechanical engineer, you probably have a pretty good idea what architects do, so if you would rather be working on the architectural side of design, maybe you are making a good move... Only you can know what your passions are, you most likely will not make more money as an architect than as a mechanical engineer with more experience but money is not everything...
It's important to do what you want, you will have no regrets. If you don't mind passing up on the mechanical engineering job, that's fine...
Question: what does th at green tech startup do exactly? How much will you be paid, and what potential is there for you to grow with the company? Opportunity cost to consider also is: if you get in on the ground floor with an innovative company you may be passing up an opportunity to be part of something really exciting, have a really successful career, imagine if somebody had a job offer from Google before it was google and passed it up to go get an architecture degree... :P
Also... What are you good at? Are you good at Mechanical Engineering? Do you want to do it going forward? Were you happy working as a mechanical consultant? Or do you think you would be better in something more creative, and where your focus of expertise is broader and less deep, but where you can see different aspects of building, more of a generalist? What is your strength and passion? This ought to inform the correct path for you, it's different for everybody... Are you generally someone who likes art and social science as well as the physical science aspects of things? I think architecture design decisions, sometimes there is more of a human and subjective aspect to decisions, you need to feel comfortable with there not being a best answer, but just a smart answer that you can defend and communicate well to a client... Do you like selling? Talking to a client, selling a design? Architects often need to be communicators whether that is coordinating between all the consultants, or internal architectural team members, other design disciplines, or with the contractor and client. Is that something you like: running a meeting, coordinating, presenting a design and addressing concerns all the time, answering to everybody?
In other words, if you are asking if it is a smart return on investment vs. taking the mechanical engineering working at the green tech startup, the answer probably is NO (you can probably confirm how much you would make...) Do the math. Calculate the opportunity cost...
But that doesn't mean it is the wrong decision to go to architecture school, you only live once, and I guess money is not everything, so have no regrets and follow your gut as well as your brain...
@bRink
The company is developing a novel small scale hydroelectric power plant. It's useful for areas where you don't have a big dam, but a smaller-size drop, like in irrigation canals, and smaller rivers.
It's an initial 4 month contract, with the potential of going on full time. The initial contract is coached as an "internship", and the pay isn't fantastic, but not terrible either (About the equivalent of 40k per year)
That actually sounds pretty interesting... If it were me, I would take that job... The temporary contract part is one thing... Not sure... Opportunity cost is also: tuition expense, moving expense, plus lost income... Lost job opportunity... The "may lead to full-time" thing, IMHO usually pans out, it is probably in this economy companies have some uncertainty so they play safe, if the company does well enough and you work out well enough then you'll probably get a job that is more permanent...
Small scale hydro electric is pretty interesting... You will have a foothold in alternative energy industry, that is an up and coming huge thing IMHO... You will always be able to go to architecture school IMHO, if you got in before, you will get in again, honestly it is not that hard to get in, it is excelling while in school that is the trick in architecture school, and getting interesting jobs out of school...
Good luck, on the end it's your choice, listen to your instincts, not an online forum! 40 k sounds about what you might be able get *after* graduating from the University of Washington with an M Arch working in Seattle by the way... Maybe more, maybe less depending on your experience and the type of office... So return on investment wise, the M Arch will not make immediate return... Plus there are alot of unemployed architects put there at the moment and this job is a sure thing...
There are also btw a number of emerging green tech companies in alternative energy in Seattle... Having that experience may be nice to have job hunting here if in the future doing an arch degree you need another internship or summer job... Or you may find you were more interested in that industry...
By all means pursue your architecture education, but keep a few things in mind. You are looking at 3 more years of school, then a 3 year "internship" at the end of which you might be able to take the licensing exams. It is more likely that you will be licensed 5 years out of school. So in 6-8 years you will be where you were 5 years ago (or whenever you were a new graduate).
Also, as you have probably learned in engineering, most jobs aren't what they are cracked up to be, and architecture is arguably the least understood profession of all. The general public's perception of being an architect is not even close to reality.
Im happy you had a fun time building models for a nice firm, maybe even playing in sketchup a little, but make sure you think you will enjoy spending most of your day drafting and detailing VERY SMALL and technical parts of buildings before you embark on a career change.
The type of architect you want to be (the one people think all architects are, the "visionary) is a tough gig to get. Most firms have one, and they are 50+ years old and have paid their dues... The rest of us unceasingly produce their vision.
Also something that concerns me...
I feel like it is most likely that you role in a firm will naturally evolve into the "engineer" either because that is what you will be most comfortable with or because they found out you have a degree in engineering and that is where they put you. And it doesn't sound like this is what you want to do...
if you do take the job, it could make you even more competitive if you reapply to arch school, if it matches well with the sort of programs to which you apply and the work of interest to you in the field -- if you ultimately want to work closer to sustainable architecture/research.
if not, then even if it is novel in and of itself, if you know for a fact that it is not where you want to go, then maybe even though it is a great opportunity for someone, maybe it is not for you and is wasting your time.
"they are 50+ years old and have paid their dues."
Visionaries must surely be geniuses, polymaths or idiot savants. But equting vision with age is as short-sighted as the short-sightedness that comes from age-related glaucoma!
This is an inherent problem in architecture! Just because you've spent 50 years shitting out details doesn't necessarily give you the right or the skill set "to be creative."
It sure makes it easier.
But one should really leave the creativity to aforementioned geniuses, drug addicts and the functionally insane.
I would take that job... Weave that alternative energy knowledge into whatever career you pursue in architecture... I imagine you would not gave applied to that job if you were not interested in that right?
@Unicorn
"But equting vision with age is as short-sighted as the short-sightedness that comes from age-related glaucoma!"
I completely agree with you. Design should be about talent, not age, but I think you are smart enough to realize this isn't how it works in the traditional ABC Architecture Firm. Next time you see a firm with my than 15 people with some 26 or 27 year old installed as the Lead Designer let me know... It isn't too likely that a firm with a few partners is going to pick up redlines for a kid out of school who is 25 years their junior just because he has talent.
Yes, but then you also run into the problem in professional services I like to refer to as "branding syndrome."
In a "branding syndrome" scenario, you run into the problem of clients wanting a specific brand synonymous with a specific person. The client sought out the specific brand and only values the brand as an extension of the icon that brand is.
When a firm or a label is small enough for one-on-one client interaction, 'branding syndrome' is a highly lucrative business model.
But what happens when 4 clients turns into 30? Can a branded leader be spread so thin?
The answer is 'No.'
Now, developing a brand as a collective of individuals-- even with iconic leadership-- solves this problem in part. No singular individual or individual taste comprises the entire appeal of the firm.
In a 'branded syndrome' office, the brand, or leadership, essentially has to make and develop clones of the original icon in order to pass off copies as originals. In this scenario, this only succeeds as long as the client is none the wiser.
So, for an office like OMA, contracting OMA does not necessarily mean you're contracting Rem Koolhaus. This would partially explain why OMA, as an office, has many significant 'brands' that have splintered off.
In a more perfect scenario, in my opinion, the skilled, talented and experienced leadership should be providing just that-- leadership. They should be directing the architectural staff to be more independent, they should be coordinating the support staff to ensure the producers are taken care of and their only real vested interest in the work should be towards approving final designs and final documentation.
If you're going to run a business as a "branded syndrome" business... you'll literally end up be redoing everything you've paid people to do for you.
In simpler terms, no one buys "Nike" or "Gucci" shoes because so-and-so is the leader designer. They buy them because Nike and Gucci have crafted a brand as being a well-run business that provides quality products.
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