Did anyone click on that short documentary about the 09 mechanical engineering grad that makes 9.50 part time fixing nintendo ds? Holy crapamolly! Thats less than they pay high school dropouts at your local home depot. Its a really sad summary of present times...
rethink-is this a problem in the architectural profession? I wouldn't put it past anyone in architecture to discriminate against the unemployed. God knows that many job ads out there are asking for preposterous requirements already.
With estimates showing that more than 50% of architecture people are unemployed I dont know that employers will be able to dismiss a perfectly capable architect because he hasn't been employed for a long time, everyone knows that all the people that were first fired were all the so called technical architects and those are the people that can get buildings built, so if an employer is dumb enough not to hire a professional architect because he was fired last year and he or she hires a recent graduate, or less qualified person just because he was lucky enough not to be fired, well I hope the employer enjoys mediation and litigation, or at the very least re issuing cd sets over and over.
I'm approaching the two year mark since my last 'proper' employment in architecture. Don's right about technical architects being all but useless at this point. In two years I've seen less than a dozen job posts that even remotely looked for the skills I have (had?).
For all it's worth, the very few interviews I had were not too concerned about the time gap in my relevant experience. It never even came up. At the same time the competition is so extremely fierce. I was beaten by clearly more qualified candidates each time. I do ask about the 'winner's' qualifications during the rejection call. It's a fair question that's answered very honestly, if not with undertones of sadness.
I keep up (or try to keep up) with all current architectural news, be that design or technical news. I feel very sharp, yet can't help but wonder if my window of opportunity has sailed away long ago. It's really scary if you think about it. The trick is to not do the later. Ignorance is bliss.
If companies are discriminating against the long term unemployed, it would be really dumb of them to say so. Silent discrimination is the most potent kind.
V1
And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Chorus:
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
V2
And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and yelled at the house, Hey! what gives you the right
To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in
If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kinda sinner
Repeat Chorus:
Bridge:
Now, hey you Mister! can't you read, you got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't suppose to be here
Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside Uh!
V3
And the sign said everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay, so I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said thank you Lord for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine
V1
And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Chorus:
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
V2
And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and yelled at the house, Hey! what gives you the right
To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in
If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kinda sinner
Repeat Chorus:
Bridge:
Now, hey you Mister! can't you read, you got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't suppose to be here
Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside Uh!
V3
And the sign said everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay, so I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said thank you Lord for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine
I know of several people who had been out of work for a year and a half to 2 years who recently found positions at architecture firms, they worked jobs outside of architecture during the search, so I think it is okay. It's a hard economy all around, it is still a tough market out there so understandable if people need to do other things to make ends meet... There are still plenty of really good people, with alot of experience out there who are without work...
The guys I know who were out the longest and have since found work are generally mid to senior level project architects and project managers, really great architects... These are really valuable people but there was quite a drought last year, understandable that even if you are highly experienced in project work that you might not be hired if there simply aren't any projects to PA or PM, and nobody is hiring on those particular skillsets... When firms are contracting, sometimes it is the people who actually are the most productive when project work is flowing who may be out of a job... The value is there, these are valuable experienced people, but the work simply isn't... Firms have different needs when they are going after work than when they actually need people who can take on the work... Emphasis might shift towards marketing and people who are at a lower billing rate if fees are tighter, etc. Firms and the industry generally have been contracting the last couple years, so nobody was hiring... It's not unusual for the good production people to be among those to be let go which IMHO has more to do with immediate needs for certain skillsets and the market situation than how good a performer people are in better economic times.
I think firms generally assess every applicant based on needed skillsets and what they have done over their careers, their experience, not on time taken looking for work... It may also be that some more experienced architects are simply looking longer for the best fit for themselves as well...
I was at 2 different seminars on the same week at different places and the conclusion is BIM and IPD are going to change a whole lot of our jobs we have or had. I hope you are looking for community college classes in Revit or have a trial version to practice on. Also a potential game changer is the new rules in some states, Illinois in particular, that now let you sit for the ARE and without finishing IDP and eventually become registered architects. Looking at the NCARB Data there is a huge spike in ARE test takers, in Illinois you just need a professional NAAB accredited degree.
So what this could do to the profession? Here are my top 4 predictions.
1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
3 Some states are initiating a spread the wealth approach to allocating the few design contracts they have so no more repeat institutional work for established offices.
4 a lot of sloppy design work out there from people with little to no experience damages the perception of value design professionals can add to a project
I think the real upheaval is starting right now as LEED and BIM become mandatory at the state and municipal levels and many companies either latch on to LEED for PR green washing or are genuinely concerned for the environment. I am told that every major down turn in our industry brings about some big change in the way we practice architecture this rescission there is the trio of LEED IPD Integrated project delivery, and BIM.
PNJ26 I think you may be off on some of these visions :)
1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
The fuck you need BIM for a 1000 sq.ft. house addition? I'm not sure if you've ever taken a BIM project through CD's (not many offices have), but the biggest promise of the new system of designing is the ease of coordination. Integration has always been a daunting task for complex projects. For simple projects, not so much.
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
Maybe, maybe not. On some level this has always been the case. In this recession, no project has become too small, so the hunger (or starvation) can be observed in all levels of the profession. Finding the clients is still the most elusive skill in architecture.
3 Some states are initiating a spread the wealth approach to allocating the few design contracts they have so no more repeat institutional work for established offices.
I haven't observed this yet. Offices that traditionally do government work are really good at it since they know their client's needs well. More competition is always good though.
4 a lot of sloppy design work out there from people with little to no experience damages the perception of value design professionals can add to a project
Quality of built work greatly depends on client's needs/interests. Institutional clients demand a quality product, residential developers no as much. A client interested in quality will not hire a design professional not proven to be able to deliver.
...LEED and BIM become mandatory at the state and municipal levels...
LEED, as a commercial certification, is of little interest to government bodies. They do often have their own green standards. Not sure why BIM would ever become a client mandated requirement.
PJN26 1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
Yes, but that crowd is working in a different realm than a multi-member office. Sole proprietors have lower overhead and likely have a build-in clientele for their work. I do agree that we likely won't see more new hand-drafters out there in the future but that was true before BIM.
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
Once again, this has always been true, nothing about BIM changes this particular aspect of the nature of our industry. This is work they always got, they're just competing against actual firms now.
Same goes for number 4.
I do agree that BIM allows us to use increasingly less man-power to generate drawings. I also think that means the jobs that have been lost during the recession aren't coming back without a greater amount of contracts than existed before. I think it will obviously effect the growth of the industry but there are so many other factors to consider beyond the software firms use.
It's funny, all the stuff you attribute to BIM was said about CAD as well. "It'll let any kid with a computer be an Architect! squack"
steelstuds - The fuck you need BIM for a 1000 sq.ft. house addition?
You don't necessarily, but seeing as this is what I do everyday I guess I should respond...
I'm not sure if you've ever taken a BIM project through CD's (not many offices have), but the biggest promise of the new system of designing is the ease of coordination. Integration has always been a daunting task for complex projects. For simple projects, not so much.
BIM on any size project allows us to generate multiple drawings much faster than CAD. Simple or complex I only have to draw an element once (e.g. I place a wall in plan, there is no need to draw and elevation or generate lines for a section, I just cut through the model at various angles) I've used all three forms of document creation for several years (hand, CAD, BIM) and I find BIM to be the fastest; one person can generate a model, renderings, and drawings in the same amount of time it takes to draw just a simple set of plans in CAD.
Parametric design makes a lot of sense. I do think that overlap between architects with construction knowledge and BIM proficiency is extremely small still. Are you able to produce permit/construction drawings through your use of BIM? A lot of practices are struggling with this one, as ability to design non-standard construction elements becomes limited by BIM knowledge.
steelstuds -
Yes every single drawing aside from the initial schematic sketches.
It's not that hard it's what the program was built to do. Confused as to why firms would be having a hard time generating documentation, can you elaborate?
I know of several firms in our area that are using ArchiCAD, Revit, Microstation for everything without having to resort to hardline AutoCAD.
What I meant by “basic stuff” is the type of small not fancy projects such as a fire substation, stand alone retail, or retail build outs, nothing that would grace the covers of Architectural record or be daring or inspiring just the work that often has to get done with the least amount of expense and time. Think squares and rectangles.
Many hospitals and universities require BIM for new projects, and many clients private and public find LEED certification to be a simple uniform system to quantify how green a project is. The work to add up the environmental benefits and detriments of a given project is done by an independent third party so the client has some confidence in the rating system. I am a LEED AP but I also know there are deficiencies in the system but it currently is the one on top. We can have hours of debate on a different thread about LEED.
BIM models speed up project delivery especially steel fabrication and can lower cost due to errors RFIs ASIs and change orders once you get past the significant learning curve. It will not be long before clients start demanding BIM the government is already demanding BIM for most federal and many state jobs. This will trickle down to other clients especially the ones owning and operating the finished product such as hospitals, educational clients, governments, and hotels.
screw BIM. pencil, paper, scale, done. and screw the computer for that matter. what are you going to do when you're sat across the table from your client and you can't draw a stinking line without $5000 of software and electronics. you won't get the job, that's for sure. you're not an architect, you're not the whole package, you're not the real deal. you're a technician.
@archgeek: "Confused as to why firms would be having a hard time generating documentation, can you elaborate?"
Think massive projects with extremely complex MEP/consultant requirements. You need large teams to just synthesize the information, let alone input it into a parametric model. Project sequencing also becomes an issue on projects not in traditional design/bid/build formats. Design team in charge of tower design is different than the one designing the base and the interior. Design of record is only in charge of doing construction set. etc....
To expect everyone to communicate in a new format (while using the same new software package) becomes a nightmare all onto itself.
I will whip out mu Revit ($6,500) and my laptop with oversized screen and make the changes and have a 3d model with finishes sun and shade simulations and be able to explain the cost of the client’s request before they get back from the restroom for that 1,000 sf addition that is been changed to a 1,200 sf addition, If they don’t like the rapid turnaround and potential accuracy of the cost estimates (mostly material takeoffs and labor per square foot which is calculated instantly as you stretch or move things) then I will have to let it go, lost time will be less if I done it by hand or CAD. And yes I carry a laptop to restaurants and other social events just in case I get a question about moving that wall or building a bungalow in the back yard it is as indispensible as a cell phone to me.
It is the reality we face and it is kind of sad that on top of many hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for school we also need to buy and maintain this software to compete. The cost of the tools of the profession are growing out of pace with the fees we collect and the wages we can pay our employees.
steelstuds - true there doesn't really seem to be any good BIM standard at the moment (I know CSI has one but it's not like the CAD days).
Though I think LMN would disagree, at least based upon my own second hand anecdotal knowledge, I've heard from friends that they're vertically integrating everything through Microstation and generative components. I think it's just on a project by project basis though.
We have it much easier in the Residential world as well, perhaps why BIM is working so well for us.
rrhodes26 - Yeah! And get those damn kids off my lawn too. Why does it have to be one or the other? I'd think an architect worth their salt would be skilled enough to present his/her ideas regardless of the tool.
you're not an architect, you're not the whole package, you're not the real deal. you're a technician
So's the guy with the pencil and square, the tool doesn't make the architect and hiding behind some misplaced sense of nostalgia won't change that. :P
PNJ26: I applaud your enthusiasm for all things LEED and BIM!
"Many hospitals and universities require BIM for new projects"
Is this really the case? I have not heard of this one yet. Do they also require you to use a specific version of Revit (since they are not cross compatible)? Does this mean the client is asking for digital model of the building from the architect? This would be a MASSIVE change for the world of architecture. There is a reason we issue everything in PDFs. You do not issue your working drawings to anyone for the reasons of liability.
As far as embrace of institutions and government of LEED goes, they started moving away from LEED back in 2006. I helped write a few green standards for a university client and NYC school board. They had high interest in sustainability, but little intrest in LEED. Maybe they are all flocking back to LEED since then. Hell do I know.
Steelstuds you are right about project integration, that fix is sure to come.
IPD is one system that is able to help it makes a huge difference when the design team and the construction team are less worried about liability then resolving the many design conflicts in MEP structure and other areas that occur on just about any sized project.
All things said, I'm huge fan of BIM in theory. In practice, have you ever had an asshole go into your model and fuck everything up? Now multiply that by a team of 10. Same shit that was frustrating with CAD as well. Only much worse. Wall: meet forehead.
BIM has ways to go before becoming a solution it promises to be. Baby steps. Right?
so basically BIM makes it to where only a few folks really need to know how to build while the others just make cuts and sheet layouts..... curious where the line will be drawn where folks on the office will actually not have to know anything... i mean shit... i have registered arch's emailing me to ask how they should detail things/build...wtf......but yet i was turned down at interviews since i didnt have 'office' experience...ok.... to each his/her own....
i think architecture is at a point where the creative folks will be looking else where and those left will be those that are not creative/motivated enough to find other avenues...
on the one hand, from a practical perspective:
everyone needs to get over bim and just get on the train b/c what is coming next is already in development --- feel behind now? there is an inertia and a momentum to this innovation that is not responsive to any one person's or group's sense of what the process is or should be and the next methodological innovation is already pretty far along in development. in some ways, from a research perspective, bim is already becoming history. what is key is to understand is that at this point, software tools, profession design and management methodology and construction practice are co-evolving more and more closely, so that to some extent, process cannot be separate from tools. this has always been true but the more tightly coupled the integration, the more the need to understand the tools well and use them in order to have currency and be effective in the market.
but more broadly speaking:
this is the silliness, no? people worry/complain about our competitiveness in a global market. it is kind of clear to everyone where the trends are going. it is also clear to everyone that these trends, as opposed to being end-all/be-all solutions, are fraught with just as much complexity and challenge and opportunity as current methods, be they CAD modeling or hand drawing methods. but importantly, and this is key, they are not any more or less fraught than the older solutions; the challenges and opportunities are just different. so just the fact that the new method is incomplete should not be a deterrent from adopting it. and in fact, one could argue that one will spend the entire career accommodating the strengths and weaknesses of whatever method of project development is used at any given time. in fact, a range of methods are used at any given time from the antiquated to the exploratory.
so the only question is, where do you fall on the curve and does it align with your market, that is, are you on a sweet spot, or resonant frequency? are you a developer, an early adopter, are you someone helping to figure out the role of this technology in the profession, do you stick to the de facto standard as long as possible, weary of the impending tool, is this b/c your market demands it or b/c you are resistant to change, do you cherish and preserve older techniques b/c it is a person passion, b/c you have the clientele to support it and it is part of the aura you market, or are you just resistant to change? no right or wrong. as long as your market demand aligns with what you provide, you've got a chance. if not, then time to adapt.
Damn it jmanganelli, that was a one long ass post. The 'only question' turned out to be misleading. Sure, there was only one question mark, but it came way too early in the long ass paragraph, and the rest just goes on and on,
Stop stealing random rants from unicorn ghost! Job taken! Find your own shtick...
Sadly, your last statement describes the kind of a worker arch. offices are desperately looking to hire these days.
You have work 10 years --- you learn bim good --- you bim for 15 year ago --- you teach dum dum you're secret --- you payed real money --- you must speak real well --- you tech us that too --- you registreded.
yeah, my second response is a bit too cheeky, given the severity of the situation. but it does make me feel that way to an extent.
i am back in school. but i'm trying to prepare for about three different career trajectories and ensure functional skill with about 6-8 new programs and it is very, very difficult to juggle and all of the time I question whether I'm making enough progress to be competitive. And at the end of the day, it does seem the market is so unbelievably overstocked with talent that it will still be a crap shoot as to whether I get a job.
i had this funny thought that there is so much talent available, employers could probably do ridiculous things during job searches and still end up with great candidates. I mean, like just picking every tenth resume. or Throwing darts. Only looking at people born in may. Or who use a serif font. or who graduated from schools where the fourth letter is a vowel. or who spell gray 'grey'. or who have at least two references whose names begin with the letter k. or who submitted their application on the second tuesday of the month.
i accepted a position in july (was out of work since november). since then i've had four interviews at other firms. i ended up leaving the first firm for another firm and started that position in the middle of sept. since then i've received another interview. it seems as soon as you mention that you are employed the firm wants you even more- ie. all those other firms bombarded me by email and phone to "hurry up and get an interview". i'm pretty happy where i'm at, but i don't want to burn a bridge for a potential future employer if god forbid anything should not work out where i'm at- so i told this other firm that i could only interview after-hours. they were perfectly happy with that and even said they're willing to interview me on a saturday if that "works better for my schedule". i'm pretty shocked actually.
+l: That's awesome! It really makes me happy to hear of people getting multiple interview requests after months of nothingness. What part of the county do you live in? Where I'm at (pacific NW) it's as dead as it's always been.
So essentially what you are saying is that we all should just say that we are employed on our resumes, regardless of it we are or not. Now I know the secret to getting a job!
i'm in DC.
tongue in cheek, i know... but i wouldn't say you're currently employed if you're not- since it is perfectly legal for the potential employer to call up your current employer to inquire if you're working there. on the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to say you are a freelance consultant, if you might have done something at some point for someone and gotten paid. everyone knows everyone in our profession it seems.
i also don't necessarily condone job-hopping. it sucks actually- because you're constantly in limbo and not "settled" anywhere. i would hate to change jobs for the third time in three months. unfortunately, we all need to pay our bills, and if i can get more money elsewhere and it's a career advancement for me, then i have to do what i have to do.
three things that worked for me- my portfolio is concise and clear with only the most well-known or "telling" projects (telling= projects that prove my skills. no overlapping photographs, clear and sharp renderings, i mocked a magazine i adore for the overall layout), references from two significant people of the firm i was laid off from, and examples of my published written articles (although no one will ask you to write an article about their firm for press, they seem to like to see that you know what you're talking about enough that someone will publish your writing).
we all have things working against us...
I haven't experienced discrimination against long term unemployed people. The fact is that mainel everyone looking for work now are "long term".
But what I have definitely experienced is WAY lower wages offered and overworking of the employees that kept their jobs. Even before the recession the Architectural profession got away with working thier employees 50+ hours but not paying OT. Well it's even worse now. My best friend who is still working at the firm I was laid off from is working 50+ work weeks consistently and in August she worked 70 hour work weeks for four weeks in a row. her project manager is asking for the firm to hire but they won't.
Unemployed need not apply
Is this a problem in the architectural profession?
http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/16/news/economy/unemployed_need_not_apply/index.htm
Suckapocalypse!
Did anyone click on that short documentary about the 09 mechanical engineering grad that makes 9.50 part time fixing nintendo ds? Holy crapamolly! Thats less than they pay high school dropouts at your local home depot. Its a really sad summary of present times...
rethink-is this a problem in the architectural profession? I wouldn't put it past anyone in architecture to discriminate against the unemployed. God knows that many job ads out there are asking for preposterous requirements already.
i've heard of three situations where people unemployed for long periods of time were either thrown out or asked not to apply.
Always happened. Just the crisis has made it way more obvious with so many long-term unemployed people and so few work vacancies.
I tell them I'm freelancing..which is what I do.
in relation to Parad0xx86's point, is freelancing looked at in the same light as unemployed or does it have less of a negative connotation?
With estimates showing that more than 50% of architecture people are unemployed I dont know that employers will be able to dismiss a perfectly capable architect because he hasn't been employed for a long time, everyone knows that all the people that were first fired were all the so called technical architects and those are the people that can get buildings built, so if an employer is dumb enough not to hire a professional architect because he was fired last year and he or she hires a recent graduate, or less qualified person just because he was lucky enough not to be fired, well I hope the employer enjoys mediation and litigation, or at the very least re issuing cd sets over and over.
I hope you're right, DQ
I'm approaching the two year mark since my last 'proper' employment in architecture. Don's right about technical architects being all but useless at this point. In two years I've seen less than a dozen job posts that even remotely looked for the skills I have (had?).
For all it's worth, the very few interviews I had were not too concerned about the time gap in my relevant experience. It never even came up. At the same time the competition is so extremely fierce. I was beaten by clearly more qualified candidates each time. I do ask about the 'winner's' qualifications during the rejection call. It's a fair question that's answered very honestly, if not with undertones of sadness.
I keep up (or try to keep up) with all current architectural news, be that design or technical news. I feel very sharp, yet can't help but wonder if my window of opportunity has sailed away long ago. It's really scary if you think about it. The trick is to not do the later. Ignorance is bliss.
If companies are discriminating against the long term unemployed, it would be really dumb of them to say so. Silent discrimination is the most potent kind.
"they" always say the architecture education is great for doing something else...
This makes me really upset on behalf of all my un- and under-employed friends out there.
V1
And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Chorus:
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
V2
And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and yelled at the house, Hey! what gives you the right
To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in
If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kinda sinner
Repeat Chorus:
Bridge:
Now, hey you Mister! can't you read, you got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't suppose to be here
Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside Uh!
V3
And the sign said everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay, so I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said thank you Lord for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine
Repeat Chorus
Repeat Chorus
V1
And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!
Chorus:
Sign Sign everywhere a sign
Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
V2
And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and yelled at the house, Hey! what gives you the right
To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in
If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kinda sinner
Repeat Chorus:
Bridge:
Now, hey you Mister! can't you read, you got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't suppose to be here
Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside Uh!
V3
And the sign said everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay, so I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said thank you Lord for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine
Repeat Chorus
Repeat Chorus
Hi mdler!!!
hi dubK
2 years 3 months for me. working the counter at a pizza place. sweet right?
I know of several people who had been out of work for a year and a half to 2 years who recently found positions at architecture firms, they worked jobs outside of architecture during the search, so I think it is okay. It's a hard economy all around, it is still a tough market out there so understandable if people need to do other things to make ends meet... There are still plenty of really good people, with alot of experience out there who are without work...
The guys I know who were out the longest and have since found work are generally mid to senior level project architects and project managers, really great architects... These are really valuable people but there was quite a drought last year, understandable that even if you are highly experienced in project work that you might not be hired if there simply aren't any projects to PA or PM, and nobody is hiring on those particular skillsets... When firms are contracting, sometimes it is the people who actually are the most productive when project work is flowing who may be out of a job... The value is there, these are valuable experienced people, but the work simply isn't... Firms have different needs when they are going after work than when they actually need people who can take on the work... Emphasis might shift towards marketing and people who are at a lower billing rate if fees are tighter, etc. Firms and the industry generally have been contracting the last couple years, so nobody was hiring... It's not unusual for the good production people to be among those to be let go which IMHO has more to do with immediate needs for certain skillsets and the market situation than how good a performer people are in better economic times.
I think firms generally assess every applicant based on needed skillsets and what they have done over their careers, their experience, not on time taken looking for work... It may also be that some more experienced architects are simply looking longer for the best fit for themselves as well...
I was at 2 different seminars on the same week at different places and the conclusion is BIM and IPD are going to change a whole lot of our jobs we have or had. I hope you are looking for community college classes in Revit or have a trial version to practice on. Also a potential game changer is the new rules in some states, Illinois in particular, that now let you sit for the ARE and without finishing IDP and eventually become registered architects. Looking at the NCARB Data there is a huge spike in ARE test takers, in Illinois you just need a professional NAAB accredited degree.
So what this could do to the profession? Here are my top 4 predictions.
1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
3 Some states are initiating a spread the wealth approach to allocating the few design contracts they have so no more repeat institutional work for established offices.
4 a lot of sloppy design work out there from people with little to no experience damages the perception of value design professionals can add to a project
I think the real upheaval is starting right now as LEED and BIM become mandatory at the state and municipal levels and many companies either latch on to LEED for PR green washing or are genuinely concerned for the environment. I am told that every major down turn in our industry brings about some big change in the way we practice architecture this rescission there is the trio of LEED IPD Integrated project delivery, and BIM.
PNJ26 I think you may be off on some of these visions :)
1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
The fuck you need BIM for a 1000 sq.ft. house addition? I'm not sure if you've ever taken a BIM project through CD's (not many offices have), but the biggest promise of the new system of designing is the ease of coordination. Integration has always been a daunting task for complex projects. For simple projects, not so much.
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
Maybe, maybe not. On some level this has always been the case. In this recession, no project has become too small, so the hunger (or starvation) can be observed in all levels of the profession. Finding the clients is still the most elusive skill in architecture.
3 Some states are initiating a spread the wealth approach to allocating the few design contracts they have so no more repeat institutional work for established offices.
I haven't observed this yet. Offices that traditionally do government work are really good at it since they know their client's needs well. More competition is always good though.
4 a lot of sloppy design work out there from people with little to no experience damages the perception of value design professionals can add to a project
Quality of built work greatly depends on client's needs/interests. Institutional clients demand a quality product, residential developers no as much. A client interested in quality will not hire a design professional not proven to be able to deliver.
...LEED and BIM become mandatory at the state and municipal levels...
LEED, as a commercial certification, is of little interest to government bodies. They do often have their own green standards. Not sure why BIM would ever become a client mandated requirement.
PJN26
1 I think the small sole proprietors out there still hand drafting or not using BIM for basic stuff are going to be decimated
Yes, but that crowd is working in a different realm than a multi-member office. Sole proprietors have lower overhead and likely have a build-in clientele for their work. I do agree that we likely won't see more new hand-drafters out there in the future but that was true before BIM.
2 A lot of young hungry freelancers are going to start taking away small work such as ADA renovations and residential renovations away from firms who have the burden of a real brick and mortar office and other overhead expenses.
Once again, this has always been true, nothing about BIM changes this particular aspect of the nature of our industry. This is work they always got, they're just competing against actual firms now.
Same goes for number 4.
I do agree that BIM allows us to use increasingly less man-power to generate drawings. I also think that means the jobs that have been lost during the recession aren't coming back without a greater amount of contracts than existed before. I think it will obviously effect the growth of the industry but there are so many other factors to consider beyond the software firms use.
It's funny, all the stuff you attribute to BIM was said about CAD as well. "It'll let any kid with a computer be an Architect! squack"
steelstuds -
The fuck you need BIM for a 1000 sq.ft. house addition?
You don't necessarily, but seeing as this is what I do everyday I guess I should respond...
I'm not sure if you've ever taken a BIM project through CD's (not many offices have), but the biggest promise of the new system of designing is the ease of coordination. Integration has always been a daunting task for complex projects. For simple projects, not so much.
BIM on any size project allows us to generate multiple drawings much faster than CAD. Simple or complex I only have to draw an element once (e.g. I place a wall in plan, there is no need to draw and elevation or generate lines for a section, I just cut through the model at various angles) I've used all three forms of document creation for several years (hand, CAD, BIM) and I find BIM to be the fastest; one person can generate a model, renderings, and drawings in the same amount of time it takes to draw just a simple set of plans in CAD.
Fair point archgeek.
Parametric design makes a lot of sense. I do think that overlap between architects with construction knowledge and BIM proficiency is extremely small still. Are you able to produce permit/construction drawings through your use of BIM? A lot of practices are struggling with this one, as ability to design non-standard construction elements becomes limited by BIM knowledge.
steelstuds -
Yes every single drawing aside from the initial schematic sketches.
It's not that hard it's what the program was built to do. Confused as to why firms would be having a hard time generating documentation, can you elaborate?
I know of several firms in our area that are using ArchiCAD, Revit, Microstation for everything without having to resort to hardline AutoCAD.
What I meant by “basic stuff” is the type of small not fancy projects such as a fire substation, stand alone retail, or retail build outs, nothing that would grace the covers of Architectural record or be daring or inspiring just the work that often has to get done with the least amount of expense and time. Think squares and rectangles.
Many hospitals and universities require BIM for new projects, and many clients private and public find LEED certification to be a simple uniform system to quantify how green a project is. The work to add up the environmental benefits and detriments of a given project is done by an independent third party so the client has some confidence in the rating system. I am a LEED AP but I also know there are deficiencies in the system but it currently is the one on top. We can have hours of debate on a different thread about LEED.
BIM models speed up project delivery especially steel fabrication and can lower cost due to errors RFIs ASIs and change orders once you get past the significant learning curve. It will not be long before clients start demanding BIM the government is already demanding BIM for most federal and many state jobs. This will trickle down to other clients especially the ones owning and operating the finished product such as hospitals, educational clients, governments, and hotels.
screw BIM. pencil, paper, scale, done. and screw the computer for that matter. what are you going to do when you're sat across the table from your client and you can't draw a stinking line without $5000 of software and electronics. you won't get the job, that's for sure. you're not an architect, you're not the whole package, you're not the real deal. you're a technician.
@archgeek: "Confused as to why firms would be having a hard time generating documentation, can you elaborate?"
Think massive projects with extremely complex MEP/consultant requirements. You need large teams to just synthesize the information, let alone input it into a parametric model. Project sequencing also becomes an issue on projects not in traditional design/bid/build formats. Design team in charge of tower design is different than the one designing the base and the interior. Design of record is only in charge of doing construction set. etc....
To expect everyone to communicate in a new format (while using the same new software package) becomes a nightmare all onto itself.
I will whip out mu Revit ($6,500) and my laptop with oversized screen and make the changes and have a 3d model with finishes sun and shade simulations and be able to explain the cost of the client’s request before they get back from the restroom for that 1,000 sf addition that is been changed to a 1,200 sf addition, If they don’t like the rapid turnaround and potential accuracy of the cost estimates (mostly material takeoffs and labor per square foot which is calculated instantly as you stretch or move things) then I will have to let it go, lost time will be less if I done it by hand or CAD. And yes I carry a laptop to restaurants and other social events just in case I get a question about moving that wall or building a bungalow in the back yard it is as indispensible as a cell phone to me.
It is the reality we face and it is kind of sad that on top of many hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for school we also need to buy and maintain this software to compete. The cost of the tools of the profession are growing out of pace with the fees we collect and the wages we can pay our employees.
steelstuds - true there doesn't really seem to be any good BIM standard at the moment (I know CSI has one but it's not like the CAD days).
Though I think LMN would disagree, at least based upon my own second hand anecdotal knowledge, I've heard from friends that they're vertically integrating everything through Microstation and generative components. I think it's just on a project by project basis though.
We have it much easier in the Residential world as well, perhaps why BIM is working so well for us.
rrhodes26 - Yeah! And get those damn kids off my lawn too. Why does it have to be one or the other? I'd think an architect worth their salt would be skilled enough to present his/her ideas regardless of the tool.
you're not an architect, you're not the whole package, you're not the real deal. you're a technician
So's the guy with the pencil and square, the tool doesn't make the architect and hiding behind some misplaced sense of nostalgia won't change that. :P
PNJ26: I applaud your enthusiasm for all things LEED and BIM!
"Many hospitals and universities require BIM for new projects"
Is this really the case? I have not heard of this one yet. Do they also require you to use a specific version of Revit (since they are not cross compatible)? Does this mean the client is asking for digital model of the building from the architect? This would be a MASSIVE change for the world of architecture. There is a reason we issue everything in PDFs. You do not issue your working drawings to anyone for the reasons of liability.
As far as embrace of institutions and government of LEED goes, they started moving away from LEED back in 2006. I helped write a few green standards for a university client and NYC school board. They had high interest in sustainability, but little intrest in LEED. Maybe they are all flocking back to LEED since then. Hell do I know.
Steelstuds you are right about project integration, that fix is sure to come.
IPD is one system that is able to help it makes a huge difference when the design team and the construction team are less worried about liability then resolving the many design conflicts in MEP structure and other areas that occur on just about any sized project.
but you still need to know how to draw, this still is true today
All things said, I'm huge fan of BIM in theory. In practice, have you ever had an asshole go into your model and fuck everything up? Now multiply that by a team of 10. Same shit that was frustrating with CAD as well. Only much worse. Wall: meet forehead.
BIM has ways to go before becoming a solution it promises to be. Baby steps. Right?
so basically BIM makes it to where only a few folks really need to know how to build while the others just make cuts and sheet layouts..... curious where the line will be drawn where folks on the office will actually not have to know anything... i mean shit... i have registered arch's emailing me to ask how they should detail things/build...wtf......but yet i was turned down at interviews since i didnt have 'office' experience...ok.... to each his/her own....
i think architecture is at a point where the creative folks will be looking else where and those left will be those that are not creative/motivated enough to find other avenues...
on the one hand, from a practical perspective:
everyone needs to get over bim and just get on the train b/c what is coming next is already in development --- feel behind now? there is an inertia and a momentum to this innovation that is not responsive to any one person's or group's sense of what the process is or should be and the next methodological innovation is already pretty far along in development. in some ways, from a research perspective, bim is already becoming history. what is key is to understand is that at this point, software tools, profession design and management methodology and construction practice are co-evolving more and more closely, so that to some extent, process cannot be separate from tools. this has always been true but the more tightly coupled the integration, the more the need to understand the tools well and use them in order to have currency and be effective in the market.
but more broadly speaking:
this is the silliness, no? people worry/complain about our competitiveness in a global market. it is kind of clear to everyone where the trends are going. it is also clear to everyone that these trends, as opposed to being end-all/be-all solutions, are fraught with just as much complexity and challenge and opportunity as current methods, be they CAD modeling or hand drawing methods. but importantly, and this is key, they are not any more or less fraught than the older solutions; the challenges and opportunities are just different. so just the fact that the new method is incomplete should not be a deterrent from adopting it. and in fact, one could argue that one will spend the entire career accommodating the strengths and weaknesses of whatever method of project development is used at any given time. in fact, a range of methods are used at any given time from the antiquated to the exploratory.
so the only question is, where do you fall on the curve and does it align with your market, that is, are you on a sweet spot, or resonant frequency? are you a developer, an early adopter, are you someone helping to figure out the role of this technology in the profession, do you stick to the de facto standard as long as possible, weary of the impending tool, is this b/c your market demands it or b/c you are resistant to change, do you cherish and preserve older techniques b/c it is a person passion, b/c you have the clientele to support it and it is part of the aura you market, or are you just resistant to change? no right or wrong. as long as your market demand aligns with what you provide, you've got a chance. if not, then time to adapt.
Damn it jmanganelli, that was a one long ass post. The 'only question' turned out to be misleading. Sure, there was only one question mark, but it came way too early in the long ass paragraph, and the rest just goes on and on,
Stop stealing random rants from unicorn ghost! Job taken! Find your own shtick...
sorry, ss, you are right
I did read your post. And enjoyed it. It's just that this site operates in pseudo-philosophical realm of discussion. You over shot. By a mile.
People want to know if BIM stands for body-mass-index or not.
point taken...in that case:
me learn bim --- bim mean job --- make me good soldier; i model for food; am expendable; don't complain --- please feed now til termination
correction: "bim (may) mean job"
Sadly, your last statement describes the kind of a worker arch. offices are desperately looking to hire these days.
You have work 10 years --- you learn bim good --- you bim for 15 year ago --- you teach dum dum you're secret --- you payed real money --- you must speak real well --- you tech us that too --- you registreded.
I forgot to put --- you recent grad --- in there
I should quit trying to be funny.
yeah, my second response is a bit too cheeky, given the severity of the situation. but it does make me feel that way to an extent.
i am back in school. but i'm trying to prepare for about three different career trajectories and ensure functional skill with about 6-8 new programs and it is very, very difficult to juggle and all of the time I question whether I'm making enough progress to be competitive. And at the end of the day, it does seem the market is so unbelievably overstocked with talent that it will still be a crap shoot as to whether I get a job.
i had this funny thought that there is so much talent available, employers could probably do ridiculous things during job searches and still end up with great candidates. I mean, like just picking every tenth resume. or Throwing darts. Only looking at people born in may. Or who use a serif font. or who graduated from schools where the fourth letter is a vowel. or who spell gray 'grey'. or who have at least two references whose names begin with the letter k. or who submitted their application on the second tuesday of the month.
it is a buyers' market if ever there was one
i accepted a position in july (was out of work since november). since then i've had four interviews at other firms. i ended up leaving the first firm for another firm and started that position in the middle of sept. since then i've received another interview. it seems as soon as you mention that you are employed the firm wants you even more- ie. all those other firms bombarded me by email and phone to "hurry up and get an interview". i'm pretty happy where i'm at, but i don't want to burn a bridge for a potential future employer if god forbid anything should not work out where i'm at- so i told this other firm that i could only interview after-hours. they were perfectly happy with that and even said they're willing to interview me on a saturday if that "works better for my schedule". i'm pretty shocked actually.
+l: That's awesome! It really makes me happy to hear of people getting multiple interview requests after months of nothingness. What part of the county do you live in? Where I'm at (pacific NW) it's as dead as it's always been.
So essentially what you are saying is that we all should just say that we are employed on our resumes, regardless of it we are or not. Now I know the secret to getting a job!
You read my mind Cherith.Employers always lie and backstab.Why not do the same? It is about survival after all.
I just tell everyone I was in a Turkish jail for the last year or so.
No interview calls yet. patiently waiting by the phone...
^^ Somebody watched the "midnight express" I guess?
i'm in DC.
tongue in cheek, i know... but i wouldn't say you're currently employed if you're not- since it is perfectly legal for the potential employer to call up your current employer to inquire if you're working there. on the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to say you are a freelance consultant, if you might have done something at some point for someone and gotten paid. everyone knows everyone in our profession it seems.
i also don't necessarily condone job-hopping. it sucks actually- because you're constantly in limbo and not "settled" anywhere. i would hate to change jobs for the third time in three months. unfortunately, we all need to pay our bills, and if i can get more money elsewhere and it's a career advancement for me, then i have to do what i have to do.
three things that worked for me- my portfolio is concise and clear with only the most well-known or "telling" projects (telling= projects that prove my skills. no overlapping photographs, clear and sharp renderings, i mocked a magazine i adore for the overall layout), references from two significant people of the firm i was laid off from, and examples of my published written articles (although no one will ask you to write an article about their firm for press, they seem to like to see that you know what you're talking about enough that someone will publish your writing).
we all have things working against us...
I haven't experienced discrimination against long term unemployed people. The fact is that mainel everyone looking for work now are "long term".
But what I have definitely experienced is WAY lower wages offered and overworking of the employees that kept their jobs. Even before the recession the Architectural profession got away with working thier employees 50+ hours but not paying OT. Well it's even worse now. My best friend who is still working at the firm I was laid off from is working 50+ work weeks consistently and in August she worked 70 hour work weeks for four weeks in a row. her project manager is asking for the firm to hire but they won't.
50+? That's on the low end. I know people working 90+ hours a week and have been for months. Weekends don't exist. There is no day off.
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