my financial perspective this year of being able to pay for college has recently gone from bad to worse, it's gotten to the point where my stomach is knots all hours of the day and everything I once had ambition for seems simply impossible. I have earned an associates in applied sciences degree concentrating in architecture/construction management...whatever that means, from a different school. Now I am in my second year out of six pursuing an M.arch (the B.arch here is not accredited). The school I am now attending barely gave me any financial aid and I have been blindly, and stupidly optimistic to the reality of paying off such incredible debt of $250,000 + interest after graduating five years from now. Maybe I was blinded by how much I love going to this new school or how I am so confident I could land a job with this degree, that it blemished the thought of never being able to handle such a load on my finances. Even with the fact that I have been earning small scholarships and have a job while in school. I told myself I could save a couple grand a year and bring that debt down but it will still be too much to ever handle. It is disgusting how much schools cost these days, we all know this. I have been hopeful that the new government programs like the Income Based Repayment could get me through, but just my luck! I will not be eligible because of the type of loans I elected. I guess when Obama said "no one should be broke because they decided to go to college"...he wasn't talking about me..or for 90% of us.
It seems like I'm stuck between a rock and hard place, either continue to study architecture here at this school, which what I really want to do, and risk financial suicide or return to my old school with my tail between my legs and earn a bachelors in construction management. You can already tell how I feel about the situation. I know this is it for my dreams of becoming an architect, I can't start over, AGAIN and risk being in the same position just at another school, probably being worse off then I am now because of the debt that has already accumulated.
What crushes me the most is that I have been following this site for a couple years now and I fully aware of the gloomy future a lot of architects face in the real world, I know that the field isn't the greatest thing to get into but I was 100% ready to take that risk because I love doing what I do. With the cost of this education there is just no way it could happen, I have my mother co-signed in these loans and she told me through all my three years of college just not to worry about money, sorry mom, but I know I couldn't live with myself If I dropped that debt on you.
so thats it. I was once talented and ambitious now I am forced to enter a career I have no place being in just to break out of debt. Some people at least get to graduate before realizing they have to switch careers to get by, I couldn't even make it past sophomore year....
yeah its a drama queen of a story....but I wanted to share anyway
I'm sorry you're facing this Zahu. The financial reality is overwhelming, and it's criminal to tell anyone they should take on a quarter of a million in debt for school. Better to realize the problem now than get stuck in the crisis of debt.
The interesting thing is LOTS of people are starting to come to that realization. There are rumbles all over of how ridiculously expensive higher education is getting to be.
My advice to you - free advice, so worth what it's worth - is to get the CM degree. Work for a few years, live frugally and try to save. With a few years in the field under your belt, you will actually become a more interesting candidate, IMO, for a 2-year Master's program. Maybe that program will be an architecture degree, or maybe it will be some kind of new degree related to the field.
Architecture is changing. The field is becoming both more diffuse (as more people start to see architects' traditional role as unworkable and even unnecessary) and more specialized (with focus programs in digital design, CM, sustainability etc.).
In five years you may be able to get a great financial aid package, for a shorter term, and use some savings to keep you from getting too deeply in debt. Good luck to you.
Every dream needs to be grounded in reality. It seems like you really didn't plan things out and slowly dug your self deeper and deeper, avoiding the fact that you were digging your own grave. I know it can hard to face reality when it intrudes on your dreams but luckily you sorta caught yourself halfway deep.
It's sad to say that incurring such large debts $250,000 (sorry that's going to follow you the rest of your life) is just ridiculous. Yes school is expensive but it's also a business. This still hasn't stopped people from paying exorbitant amounts of money to attend.
Good luck on your new job/career path. Hopefully you won't make the same mistake.
Mind if I ask where you study? That amount is exorbitent, if you do get a cm degree,you will be setting yourself up to get a job with a GC, which is always a good place to see buildings get built, and if you still insist on being an architect you may work under licensed architects or engineers for 10 years (if you find a job anyway) and take the license exam check with your state, what people on here told you about architects changing, well that depends on your own perspective historically architects and GCs,engineers, have always been at odds, donna is right were under attack on all sides and a bunch of "basterdiseda"professions will spring up. But don't count on all architects to give in to this so easily,since we know the weak points of these special interest groups who want architects basically to disappear
My only advice is being places after you graduate is probably more important than not being places.
When I graduated, I had absolutely $0 saved up, no job or anything. Still hasn't changed! My 'friends,' however, took out small loans, begged grandma and saved up money. They all ditched me and went to New York, Boston and L.A.
They all have jobs. They're all doing okay. And they all seem to be having a lot more fun than I am.
So, now I am stuck in Shithole, Fl rotting away in a city with 15% unemployment and conveniently almost entirely blue collar.
At this point, I think I'd rather be worried about being more in debt than going crazy from a lack of utility. Like, I'm super crazy now.
I remember my locker in first year every time I opened the damn thing it said "get out while you still can", but jokes aside to respond to the poster you are going to be ok man whatever you do, but my advise is for you to go to different college, I'm partial to IIT, but they are affordable in the private school catagory, go before the best professors retire and the crazies take over do it now, or go for the cm
thanks for all the replies, I really do appreciate the advice
The school I'm at now is northeastern university, in Boston. The CM program is part of a SUNY Delhi, in upstate NY. If I go back in spring it will probably take me 2 1/2 years to graduate with a bachelors in Construction Management, but much less debt. I really hated this school, very small campus and very little graduating options. They do offer a B.T in Architecture which was my plan to enter after earning my associates but I have serious doubts that this degree will earn me anything in the field of architecture. This is the reason why I transferred to begin with. I still have close friends who have switched to the construction management program at SUNY about the same time I transferred, they also hate the school but have been lined up with some pretty nice internships with promises of a future career in their companies.
"My only advice is being places after you graduate is probably more important than not being places".
I agree with you 100%. If I could even get my debt down to $100k I would be ready to stay, but anything more then that is too rich for my blood.
and trace, the school with the CM degree does not offer MBA programs
I will be meeting with a financial advisor sometime this week and probably discussing my last bit of options but I have been researching loans and scholarships for years now and nothing seems hopeful at this point, not with much of an expense.
So do you currently have $250k in debt, or will that be the approximate total after you get the MArch? I do have to comment that is an absurd amount for any degree, let alone an Architecture degree where your earning power is severely limited.
I'm sure I'll get beat up for saying this but your best value in higher education is large mid-western state schools. Places like IA, NE, KS, IL, etc. may not be glamorous but nobody is leaving there with $250k in debt. Cost of living is also cheap.
Let me be clear, $250k of debt for an education will limit you for the rest of your life. It's indentured servitude. Unlike a home mortgage you don't have an asset you can sell, or give back to the lender. But like the housing market, the value of an Architecture education is not what it used to be a few years ago.
Now I don't want to tell you to give up on your dreams. Prospects for work are dismal, but you said you already are fully aware of that fact. Since you seem to hate your old school I'd suggest looking elsewhere. Hopefully a place where you can transfer most of your credits, and start fresh. It must be a "cheaper" place, but just about anywhere should fit that bill. Who cares where you degree comes from so long as it's an Architecture degree, right? Just get the hell out of Boston.
Zahu, i appreciate that you hate the school you attended before. But at this point, it might be time to realign your expectations with reality.
For the vast majority of history, it has only been a very select, very lucky, and usually very wealthy segment of the population that has been able to work and live as they please with no consequence. For the past few generations in America, credit allowed MOST people to live that way.
Unfortunately, reality has caught back up with us. So, unless you are prepared for the massive consequences of working and living as you dreamed, get out while you can.
This is not a hiccup. This is how things have always been. Most people don't get to live dream lives. Most people don't have the luxury of enjoying their jobs. Most people don't have the luxury of picking the college they attend...shit... most people don't have the luxury of even GOING to college.
So, that being said, here is my advice. Deal with it... don't be one of those idiots that holds on to their sense of entitlement so fiercely that they ruin themselves. Get out of your 250k program as soon as humanly possible, because in the REAL world, the world we ACTUALLY live in, you will not be wealthy unless you were born that way, and only a wealthy person could ever live a comfortable life with that much debt.
Sorry if this sounds over defeatist. But we all need to realize that we are entitled to nothing, and that in many cases requires dreams to be relegated to fantasy. I sometimes wish someone had more throughly explained this to me before college, and my debt load is only a fraction of what you are talking about.
I am considering NYIT for architecture but of course that means starting over again. its a pretty cheap school that offers a good degree. I have a friend that goes there and her only complaint is the living arrangements.
so before I go filling out an official withdrawal form, no one has really mentioned the possibility of bringing that debt down to a reasonable number. I am not in 250k debt yet, I will be in five years. surely there is something I can do in the mean time other then work a bs part time job and hunt for scholarships only worth $1,000-$2,000
Correct, MBA's are everywhere and they typically aren't cheap. BUT they do offer possibilities and knowledge that you can apply in many profitable ways later on.
Biggest thing, imho, is that it offers a little bit of a fall back/flexibility that an architecture degree does not.
No idea how accurate this is: "According to the GMAC review, the average starting salary of graduate MBA makes in $2009 $79,936 against $83,541 in 2008 (in 2007 - $80,452)"
If you are at the beginning of schooling, I can't see why not to pursue things with some diversity. Business skills will always be valuable.
I don't get it...graduate tuition at the state school I got my 4 yr arch degree from is just under $5,000/semester. Even if you took the 3 1/2 year program, that's only $35,000 in tuition.
I really don't understand the type of masochist that would pay more than $100,000 for a degree, unless your parents are rich and have that kind of money to blow, or if you've gotten straight As since kindergarten and get a full scholarship, or if you maybe have a reasonable expectation of making 75-100k/yr salary as an engineer or doctor or something.
Right know I have around 25k in undergrad loans to pay off, the most I would hopefully borrow would be another 30-35k for grad school.
I think that too many people believe that, "Oh, this is my dream school, I can't imagine myself anywhere else, you only live once".
The only trouble is they also can't imagine paying off $250,000 in loans at their $35,000/yr job, either.
You know, I spent 3 weeks living at Frank Lloyd Wright's Taliesin, and I think it would be completely fascinating to take some M. Arch classes there, but they offer no financial aid, only loans from private banks. Heck, I would even enjoy going to a school like ASU, Berkley, UCLA, somewhere different just for a new experience, but out-of-state tuition is just far too high, so I will be going back to UW-Milwaukee or a school like the University of Minnesota that grants resident tuition to out-of-state studens.
What I find mildly funny about the MBA is that all MBA schools are essentially either model led after or nod to the Harvard MBA-- who essentially invented the MBA (no one gives a shit about Dartmouth).
The Harvard MBA from I gather from various sources... but not direct sources-- because obviously I do not frequent places where I can rub elbows with Harvard graduates-- is that the Harvard program is essentially one giant case study.
The classes and curriculum are geared where a student develops an idea or set of ideas into a final product(s).
So, the interesting concept here is that even if theoretical... the student actually does real world work (and risk taking) within the safety of academia. So, when the student graduates... they actually not only graduate with a degree but experience as well.
If you're going to go get an MBA get one from one of the top schools because the others are almost worthless.
Same with Milwaukee here.I've got 20k in loans and I'm pooping in my pants.No grad school for me before I pay off that 20k.I pay 200 bucks a month for loans but in NY even that amount is tough to pay...Unless you're a medical student you should never take that much loans man.
Get your construction degree and start looking for a job in an architecture firm. Of course jobs are hard to come by but you might have something different to offer a firm then a recent architecture graduate.
This story isn't one of a drama queen, and it is becoming more and more common.
I think the trick is to do research before selecting a school. What scholarships are offered, what low rate loans, how does one qualify, etc.
The other avenue to take might be getting a cost effective, but lucrative degree in the construction/design field [such as CM, as you mentioned], and after completing a bachelors, going to the MArch. school of your choice. Surely 3 years is cheaper than 5 [or 6] years. and you might get into a better school, for the experience spent in real life. Acceptance commitees certainly recognize that an experienced construction manager can certainly offer valuable insight to their numerous english, philosphy and fine arts applicants.
Not to mention, in my opinion, there should be more people who understand both sides of the architecture and systems design V. construction and economy coin. Those people [few and far between] are truly valuable.
get the construction degree and work for a general contractor that does good work and works with architects...
you will be hands on, close to the construction process, maybe build some cool shit, and get paid a heck of a lot more than the architectural intern with the m. arch from columbia and 150,000 debt who built the 3D model of that project... if you later want to become an architect, your experience in construction will be valuable...
On a side note: higher education at alot of schools here in the States is insanely overpriced... Sorry, the schools may be *amazing* whatever that means and maybe you study with some starchitect for a term, but honestly, return on investment wise, dollars spent to salary after you graduate, it doesnt add up...
$250,000 in debt is IMHO ridiculous, a serious burden to be carrying around in a fledgling career in an industry that is highly cyclical and you may be out of work in downturns... Think of it this way: your rent + an added mortgage level debt for the next 30 years... How much will you need to earn after graduation to pay that and live well?
My advice: go to a good state school, ya maybe in the midwest or someplace affordable, do good work and have a great body of work in your portfolio and just work at cool firms once you graduate... it is more valuable and impressive to do cool shit and work at good offices than to go to an elite school and be massively crippled by debt... 2 cents... since in the end, it's not what school you went to or piece of paper you have, it's all about what you've done, what your work is like and how you learn and grow once out of school...
I am in a similar position to Zahu55; feeling crippled by the amount of debt I am racking up and unsure of what the future may hold. Thankfully I am not going to be $250k in debt but closer to $75k after receiving a M.Arch.
How did I justify going to a private American university? Well, going to a public university and working toward a M.Arch would incur the same amount of debt due to living expenses (currently living at home) and even if I got into my tuition-free dream school I would be spending nearly $75k to live in NYC during a 5 year B.Arch which is a regressive path towards professorship (career dream) compared to my school's 5 year M.Arch.
What were my other options? I could have incurred a bit less debt for a BFA in sculpture, which I understood as preceding a M.Arch. Or I could've attended a big name school for geography/liberal arts (full scholarship, paying for housing only) which I also understood as preceding a M.Arch in the long run. Both of those options would've made me older and more in the red at the end of my time in school. I decided to take a big hit from an early age and will work to pay it back as quick as possible. I will be 22 when I graduate with a M.Arch and 1 year of internships under my belt, which leaves years ahead of me to become licensed or get another degree.
Is it unreasonable to think I could be debt free before I am 30? I don't think so. At that point I hope to be happy and carrying years of experience. Dreams of playing in the NHL or touring with my band are gone...
kind of funny how everyone under 30 is so worried about there age, Life is not guaranteed people we could die tomorrow in a freak accident! live each day as well as you can.
an entire life ... how long is that once again unicorn you are speaking as though life has been guaranteed to us. I've been to funerals for people of all ages, from babies, teenagers, adults, older adults, middle aged, Maybe that is whats wrong with architecture today, its being run by a bunch of people who are worried about getting old.
I don't think I've ever been to a funeral in my whole life. Perhaps Don, you should stop killing everyone you meet you psycho!
As far as quarter million dollars in debt dilemma goes: finish your degree and leave the country. Go work in China or something. Live on rice and green tea while learning how to build stuff out of bamboo. Write a novel in Mandarin. Once you come back to US in a decade, the only form of currency will be bullets, cigarettes and toilet paper. Chinese construction companies will need native speakers to assist in building of sweat shops and factories.
1/4 million for an architecture degree is definitely too much.
if you are worried about quality of education you needn't assume the cost of school is equal to what you are going to get out of it. my m.arch. in rural canada was $8000 bucks tuition. total. for 2 1/2 years. actually less than that because i had a scholarship that covered about half the fee...
paying for house and keeping my family comfortable (was married with one child at the time) cost a bit more, but it was never that much.
The degree was more than enough. classmates went on to work for OMA and other similarly fancy starchitecture firms if that is any ind of validation of the curriculum. it was enough to get me into phd program at uni of tokyo with a full scholarship. it also was enough to be gainfully employed at offices in london and in japan and now to have own office with a group of like-minded folks.
all on $8k worth of education (and a lot of ambition, i freely admit).
an expensive education is great if you can afford it. if you cant then it simply means working harder and being more ambitious to get where you want to go. it doesn't mean you should go to crappy shcool or even a school you don't like. that makes just as little sense as spending so much cash to begin with.
funny enough my biz partner had a fantastic education in europe for free, studying under one of the best landscape architects in the world (adriaan geuze).
makes a body wonder just a bit about the future of america, doesn't it?
"I don't think I've ever been to a funeral in my whole life. Perhaps Don, you should stop killing everyone you meet you psycho!" -steelstuds
Steel stud,
first of all dumb ass i dont know where you got the idea that i kill people you idiot, and if you haven't payed any respects to your dearly departed then you should be ashamed of yourself you fucking asshole
The only reason I ask is that it seems to be that standards-- although still there-- were largely unenforced.
I say that because pre-2000 internet didn't let employers be their own private investigators-- if degrees, criminal records, previous employment, credit histories et cetera were checked, that sort of process could take months to years.
Also, less skills were necessarily (although those limited skills are conceivably more difficult to master) to gain entry-level employment.
I'd like to be adult about cussing out steelstuds earlier, totally wrong on my part to go off like that, even if he did call me a psycho killer. I just so happen to have read his comments about me at a very bad time.
ps. Ive only been here a short while, and each time I give some advice people either repeat what i say in a different way but we agree, and then i get guys that don't get what i say. I think archinect should thank me for saying things that cause people to post on here more often, I feel like I am a ratings booster or something.
Unicorn, it is a tough job market but I think the point jump is making, and is that how expensive a school is does not equate necessarily to a better education, snd even the prestige or name bling of a school is not as essential in the job market out of school as your work... There are good schools that are much more affordable, and no school or prestige, piece of paper guarantees you employment or success in career... Imho there is no substitute for ambition and hard work. You cannot buy a career IMHO, it takes personal investment and work...
There are plenty of IVY league graduates coming out of school who are crippled by debt now and are in basically the same boat, unable to find a job... And then there are graduates from University of Idaho, or Kansas State University, or Iowa State, Montana State, etc. or lesser known Canadian Universities who are doing great work, have gone on to successful careers at top firms... And may just have better work...
Now a day, architecture is the only field where a 'mediocrity' pretend a 'genius' just by attending a "dream" school and make a fantasy out of a school name using a naive belief for a "dream".
For me, that chart looks like a commercial scam blinding people to their realities using their naive fantasy.
There is such a huge range in the price paid for education and whether you pay $35,000 or $3,000 a year, you will graduate and be competing for the same job as the next guy, and will be commanding the same salary which will be related to what your work is like, what you can do, your experience level and skill sets, not how much debt you have incurred... Architecture jobs don't compensate for debt of education, and honestly I don't think they look much at where you graduated from...
I know what Jump (and you) was/were saying -- I just like to rib him... a lot.
But my graphic basically represents this... as we (or, you architect people) compete in the economy for work and money, we have to provide more complete and better projects.
We tend to discount things like sanitation (pipes and vents), electrification or energization (fuel, utility, gas, lighting, electric et cetera) as being marketable, architectural goods. Architects not even 100 years ago were patting each other on the ass for making sure rooms had light bulbs.
But let's just take the bottom "Basic Shelter" category:
Each triangle represents a yes/no, either or question. These questions would be:
1. Does the structure shield the occupant from the sun?
2. Does the structure keep the occupant dry?
3. Is the structure able to resist the force of gravity?
We can then assign bits to each individual response to the question. From there, we can generate a represented value of the structure. This value represents the hiearchal function of the structure.
Each question, itself, despite being yes or no answers also represent a methodology or action associated with them (dry= overhanging eaves, high ground, resistant to moisture... and so on).
This concept develops a matrix for determining the hierarchy of architectural product creation. One must learn each basic underlying sub routine before progressing onto a routine in a higher hierarchical routine.
Given this, these routines could also be mapped over a timeline showing how increasing complexity in the hierarchical construct has equivalent points along said timeline.
If one were to enter into this timeline earlier, then the number of learned subordinate and dominate routines in the hierarchical complex is fewer in numbers.
As the number of yes or no questions grows, so does the number of base (or sub-ordinate) routines-- meaning, to be able to address complex issues or answer complex questions based a number of interrelated subroutines... one has to know each individual subroutine.
While time-specific observations can determine the complex nature of said architectural product at that time-specific observation, this does not necessarily bar an individual from understanding, learning or developing new routines.
However, given that, new individuals have an increasing amount of hierarchical routines and subroutines to learn in addition to learning previous foundational subroutines.
In that assumption, price of education may have no direct impact on quality of education... but quality of education is dependent on the number of subroutines, routines and understanding of dominant hierarchical methodology.
Teaching any individual student every possible yes or no question within that hierarchal complex is solely dependent on the availability of every yes or no question to be answered and the availability of resources (physical, technical, academic, intellectual, emotional, social) to be used in demonstrating routines, processes and concepts behind every yes or no question.
1) ORGANIZATION: why an equilateral triangle? why not a right triangle or some other distribution to profitability vs liability? perhaps the knowledge pyramid should be completely disassociated from any insinuation about its relationship to liability or profitability? furthermore, why not a scatter plot or network diagram or histogram?
2) ASSUMPTIONS: why a hierarchy and why assume that knowledge builds upon other knowledge and why assume, "Teaching any individual...concepts behind every yes or no question"? why not disjunctive, messy relationships between knowledge domains with gaps? are you suggesting someone cannot understand/learn systems or conservation without first understanding design or basic programming?
No specific reasoning for an equilateral triangle. However, any other shape or representation used should have the ability to be fractional and demonstrate simple relationships.
You could easily invert this as a tree-- however, as a series of either or options, there's a finite amount of relations that could be drawn.
The liability and profitability portion works in some instances. If I only learn the first two or three bottom levels... my "product" is less than complete which equates it to being less than desirable-- demand equals price.
Liability increases when specific knowledge isn't necessarily related-back, i.e., proven, to earlier hierarchical routines.
Liability decreases when specific knowledge or instances are satisfied through application back to base subroutines.
The pinnacle of this particular hierarchy is integration -- i.e. BIM -- because integration demonstrates integration of the entire building under a singular system specifying what would be unknown dynamics in simpler hierarchies. A client cannot necessarily sue you if they were aware of a problem before it even existed.
"are you suggesting someone cannot understand/learn systems or conservation without first understanding design or basic programming?"
No. People can learn them. But application of said ideas to fulfill a yes-or-no question is what drives both price and liability.
Example:
I can know about all sorts of things about PV systems--
But do I know how to integrate them into the system?
Do I know how to integrate them within the electric system?
Do I know how to install a system to generate data for observation over the PV system?
Do I know how to get that data from the system?
Do I know how they will effect drainage?
Do I have to have knowledge about venting systems in order to place venting and corresponding sanitation systems in order to avoid conflicting use?
Do I know what increase or decrease in wind loads will they generate?
Do I know what increase or decrease in roof weight will result in greater or less sheer stresses?
Do I know whether the installation of a PV system will comprise the vapor barrier or membrane of the structure?
Do I know whether or not the roof will collapse from the structure?
And notice a trend-- the yes-or-no questions go from basic to complex. From "will the roof hold the weight?" to "will the roof hold the weight in a wind storm?" You decrease your value and increase your liability by simply not know everything.
A reductive model of hierarchical complexity is a concept of evaluating systems for the simple reason of representing complexity in a simplistic manner.
This is a little side project of mine I've been working on for some time.
where you're going seems to work in concept, kind of, but seems to suffer from being a bit rigid in organization
the idea of using a decision matrix like you're doing is valid, but it seems that the matrix has to be flexible enough that it can be applied differently for any given design challenge
with something like the dsm matrices referenced in the link above, the use of such matrices helps one find relationships in any given situation as opposed to defining them --- that is, using dsm's is a way to analyze and manage the evolution of a design process, not prescribe it
if i am missing things or taking this in a direction you do not intend to go, just let me know --- broadly speaking, i am very interested in what you've presented in concept
you had another post which made me want to ask you, are you familiar with the work of Ugo Gagliardi or Pau de Sola-Morales Serra? Panos Papalambros? what about Alexander's, Notes on the Synthesis of Form? The work of John Fraser? Gordon Pask? Conversation Theory? Others who address issues which stem from systems engineering and/or computer science and/or controls and/or information management as related to architecture?
if so, maybe we can start a thread on this area. I would love that.
i finished undergrad in 90's and m.arch in 2001 (just around 9/11 in fact). no i don't think standards have changed, neither for students nor for offices. there are more computers now, but i was using cad in undergrad and it was already in the offices too. the expectations from offices were no different then than now. they expected to see skills and ambition. that doesn't change just because of maya or rhino or BIM.
is that what you were trying to say?
brink has it right. it is not necessary to go to expensive school to land job at OMA or SOM or wherever. it is necessary to work hard. being smart helps too.
the always fun to read thomas friedman says that american students are lazier than ever and that is why america sucks (at least that is what he said in today's NY times). apparently it isn't the teachers and the school programs but the apathy of students that has set america on the downward path to mediocrity...
I can't afford the dream
my financial perspective this year of being able to pay for college has recently gone from bad to worse, it's gotten to the point where my stomach is knots all hours of the day and everything I once had ambition for seems simply impossible. I have earned an associates in applied sciences degree concentrating in architecture/construction management...whatever that means, from a different school. Now I am in my second year out of six pursuing an M.arch (the B.arch here is not accredited). The school I am now attending barely gave me any financial aid and I have been blindly, and stupidly optimistic to the reality of paying off such incredible debt of $250,000 + interest after graduating five years from now. Maybe I was blinded by how much I love going to this new school or how I am so confident I could land a job with this degree, that it blemished the thought of never being able to handle such a load on my finances. Even with the fact that I have been earning small scholarships and have a job while in school. I told myself I could save a couple grand a year and bring that debt down but it will still be too much to ever handle. It is disgusting how much schools cost these days, we all know this. I have been hopeful that the new government programs like the Income Based Repayment could get me through, but just my luck! I will not be eligible because of the type of loans I elected. I guess when Obama said "no one should be broke because they decided to go to college"...he wasn't talking about me..or for 90% of us.
It seems like I'm stuck between a rock and hard place, either continue to study architecture here at this school, which what I really want to do, and risk financial suicide or return to my old school with my tail between my legs and earn a bachelors in construction management. You can already tell how I feel about the situation. I know this is it for my dreams of becoming an architect, I can't start over, AGAIN and risk being in the same position just at another school, probably being worse off then I am now because of the debt that has already accumulated.
What crushes me the most is that I have been following this site for a couple years now and I fully aware of the gloomy future a lot of architects face in the real world, I know that the field isn't the greatest thing to get into but I was 100% ready to take that risk because I love doing what I do. With the cost of this education there is just no way it could happen, I have my mother co-signed in these loans and she told me through all my three years of college just not to worry about money, sorry mom, but I know I couldn't live with myself If I dropped that debt on you.
so thats it. I was once talented and ambitious now I am forced to enter a career I have no place being in just to break out of debt. Some people at least get to graduate before realizing they have to switch careers to get by, I couldn't even make it past sophomore year....
yeah its a drama queen of a story....but I wanted to share anyway
I'm sorry you're facing this Zahu. The financial reality is overwhelming, and it's criminal to tell anyone they should take on a quarter of a million in debt for school. Better to realize the problem now than get stuck in the crisis of debt.
The interesting thing is LOTS of people are starting to come to that realization. There are rumbles all over of how ridiculously expensive higher education is getting to be.
My advice to you - free advice, so worth what it's worth - is to get the CM degree. Work for a few years, live frugally and try to save. With a few years in the field under your belt, you will actually become a more interesting candidate, IMO, for a 2-year Master's program. Maybe that program will be an architecture degree, or maybe it will be some kind of new degree related to the field.
Architecture is changing. The field is becoming both more diffuse (as more people start to see architects' traditional role as unworkable and even unnecessary) and more specialized (with focus programs in digital design, CM, sustainability etc.).
In five years you may be able to get a great financial aid package, for a shorter term, and use some savings to keep you from getting too deeply in debt. Good luck to you.
Every dream needs to be grounded in reality. It seems like you really didn't plan things out and slowly dug your self deeper and deeper, avoiding the fact that you were digging your own grave. I know it can hard to face reality when it intrudes on your dreams but luckily you sorta caught yourself halfway deep.
It's sad to say that incurring such large debts $250,000 (sorry that's going to follow you the rest of your life) is just ridiculous. Yes school is expensive but it's also a business. This still hasn't stopped people from paying exorbitant amounts of money to attend.
Good luck on your new job/career path. Hopefully you won't make the same mistake.
Mind if I ask where you study? That amount is exorbitent, if you do get a cm degree,you will be setting yourself up to get a job with a GC, which is always a good place to see buildings get built, and if you still insist on being an architect you may work under licensed architects or engineers for 10 years (if you find a job anyway) and take the license exam check with your state, what people on here told you about architects changing, well that depends on your own perspective historically architects and GCs,engineers, have always been at odds, donna is right were under attack on all sides and a bunch of "basterdiseda"professions will spring up. But don't count on all architects to give in to this so easily,since we know the weak points of these special interest groups who want architects basically to disappear
My only advice is being places after you graduate is probably more important than not being places.
When I graduated, I had absolutely $0 saved up, no job or anything. Still hasn't changed! My 'friends,' however, took out small loans, begged grandma and saved up money. They all ditched me and went to New York, Boston and L.A.
They all have jobs. They're all doing okay. And they all seem to be having a lot more fun than I am.
So, now I am stuck in Shithole, Fl rotting away in a city with 15% unemployment and conveniently almost entirely blue collar.
At this point, I think I'd rather be worried about being more in debt than going crazy from a lack of utility. Like, I'm super crazy now.
I remember my locker in first year every time I opened the damn thing it said "get out while you still can", but jokes aside to respond to the poster you are going to be ok man whatever you do, but my advise is for you to go to different college, I'm partial to IIT, but they are affordable in the private school catagory, go before the best professors retire and the crazies take over do it now, or go for the cm
Get an MBA at the same time, preferably one with a real estate focus.
This would give you more value as a professional and give you something to utlize and/or fall back on.
This shouldn't cost you anymore (well, maybe more stress, but possible).
Otherwise, $250k for one degree, in any design related field, is just insane.
thanks for all the replies, I really do appreciate the advice
The school I'm at now is northeastern university, in Boston. The CM program is part of a SUNY Delhi, in upstate NY. If I go back in spring it will probably take me 2 1/2 years to graduate with a bachelors in Construction Management, but much less debt. I really hated this school, very small campus and very little graduating options. They do offer a B.T in Architecture which was my plan to enter after earning my associates but I have serious doubts that this degree will earn me anything in the field of architecture. This is the reason why I transferred to begin with. I still have close friends who have switched to the construction management program at SUNY about the same time I transferred, they also hate the school but have been lined up with some pretty nice internships with promises of a future career in their companies.
"My only advice is being places after you graduate is probably more important than not being places".
I agree with you 100%. If I could even get my debt down to $100k I would be ready to stay, but anything more then that is too rich for my blood.
and trace, the school with the CM degree does not offer MBA programs
I will be meeting with a financial advisor sometime this week and probably discussing my last bit of options but I have been researching loans and scholarships for years now and nothing seems hopeful at this point, not with much of an expense.
schools don't compete over price - they compete over amenities and status. they can price gouge because they know they are the only game in town.
plus - public universities are socialist.
So do you currently have $250k in debt, or will that be the approximate total after you get the MArch? I do have to comment that is an absurd amount for any degree, let alone an Architecture degree where your earning power is severely limited.
I'm sure I'll get beat up for saying this but your best value in higher education is large mid-western state schools. Places like IA, NE, KS, IL, etc. may not be glamorous but nobody is leaving there with $250k in debt. Cost of living is also cheap.
Let me be clear, $250k of debt for an education will limit you for the rest of your life. It's indentured servitude. Unlike a home mortgage you don't have an asset you can sell, or give back to the lender. But like the housing market, the value of an Architecture education is not what it used to be a few years ago.
Now I don't want to tell you to give up on your dreams. Prospects for work are dismal, but you said you already are fully aware of that fact. Since you seem to hate your old school I'd suggest looking elsewhere. Hopefully a place where you can transfer most of your credits, and start fresh. It must be a "cheaper" place, but just about anywhere should fit that bill. Who cares where you degree comes from so long as it's an Architecture degree, right? Just get the hell out of Boston.
Zahu, i appreciate that you hate the school you attended before. But at this point, it might be time to realign your expectations with reality.
For the vast majority of history, it has only been a very select, very lucky, and usually very wealthy segment of the population that has been able to work and live as they please with no consequence. For the past few generations in America, credit allowed MOST people to live that way.
Unfortunately, reality has caught back up with us. So, unless you are prepared for the massive consequences of working and living as you dreamed, get out while you can.
This is not a hiccup. This is how things have always been. Most people don't get to live dream lives. Most people don't have the luxury of enjoying their jobs. Most people don't have the luxury of picking the college they attend...shit... most people don't have the luxury of even GOING to college.
So, that being said, here is my advice. Deal with it... don't be one of those idiots that holds on to their sense of entitlement so fiercely that they ruin themselves. Get out of your 250k program as soon as humanly possible, because in the REAL world, the world we ACTUALLY live in, you will not be wealthy unless you were born that way, and only a wealthy person could ever live a comfortable life with that much debt.
Sorry if this sounds over defeatist. But we all need to realize that we are entitled to nothing, and that in many cases requires dreams to be relegated to fantasy. I sometimes wish someone had more throughly explained this to me before college, and my debt load is only a fraction of what you are talking about.
I am considering NYIT for architecture but of course that means starting over again. its a pretty cheap school that offers a good degree. I have a friend that goes there and her only complaint is the living arrangements.
so before I go filling out an official withdrawal form, no one has really mentioned the possibility of bringing that debt down to a reasonable number. I am not in 250k debt yet, I will be in five years. surely there is something I can do in the mean time other then work a bs part time job and hunt for scholarships only worth $1,000-$2,000
MBA is not cure to everything.It is expensive and everybody and their mother is getting an MBA these days.
On another topic,NYIT is an ok school not too cheap because it is private after all but its architecture program is GOOD so I definitely recommend it.
I bailed on arch school... and with 0 debt. It just didnt seem like an awesome career path the more I learned. But thats just me...
Unlike on another current thread, on this thread I agree 100% with aquapura.
I also agree with everyone who has said a quarter of a million in debt is insane, for any degree. It's ridiculously stupidly insane.
Correct, MBA's are everywhere and they typically aren't cheap. BUT they do offer possibilities and knowledge that you can apply in many profitable ways later on.
Biggest thing, imho, is that it offers a little bit of a fall back/flexibility that an architecture degree does not.
No idea how accurate this is: "According to the GMAC review, the average starting salary of graduate MBA makes in $2009 $79,936 against $83,541 in 2008 (in 2007 - $80,452)"
If you are at the beginning of schooling, I can't see why not to pursue things with some diversity. Business skills will always be valuable.
I don't get it...graduate tuition at the state school I got my 4 yr arch degree from is just under $5,000/semester. Even if you took the 3 1/2 year program, that's only $35,000 in tuition.
I really don't understand the type of masochist that would pay more than $100,000 for a degree, unless your parents are rich and have that kind of money to blow, or if you've gotten straight As since kindergarten and get a full scholarship, or if you maybe have a reasonable expectation of making 75-100k/yr salary as an engineer or doctor or something.
Right know I have around 25k in undergrad loans to pay off, the most I would hopefully borrow would be another 30-35k for grad school.
I think that too many people believe that, "Oh, this is my dream school, I can't imagine myself anywhere else, you only live once".
The only trouble is they also can't imagine paying off $250,000 in loans at their $35,000/yr job, either.
You know, I spent 3 weeks living at Frank Lloyd Wright's Taliesin, and I think it would be completely fascinating to take some M. Arch classes there, but they offer no financial aid, only loans from private banks. Heck, I would even enjoy going to a school like ASU, Berkley, UCLA, somewhere different just for a new experience, but out-of-state tuition is just far too high, so I will be going back to UW-Milwaukee or a school like the University of Minnesota that grants resident tuition to out-of-state studens.
What I find mildly funny about the MBA is that all MBA schools are essentially either model led after or nod to the Harvard MBA-- who essentially invented the MBA (no one gives a shit about Dartmouth).
The Harvard MBA from I gather from various sources... but not direct sources-- because obviously I do not frequent places where I can rub elbows with Harvard graduates-- is that the Harvard program is essentially one giant case study.
The classes and curriculum are geared where a student develops an idea or set of ideas into a final product(s).
So, the interesting concept here is that even if theoretical... the student actually does real world work (and risk taking) within the safety of academia. So, when the student graduates... they actually not only graduate with a degree but experience as well.
If you're going to go get an MBA get one from one of the top schools because the others are almost worthless.
Same with Milwaukee here.I've got 20k in loans and I'm pooping in my pants.No grad school for me before I pay off that 20k.I pay 200 bucks a month for loans but in NY even that amount is tough to pay...Unless you're a medical student you should never take that much loans man.
Zahu55,
Get your construction degree and start looking for a job in an architecture firm. Of course jobs are hard to come by but you might have something different to offer a firm then a recent architecture graduate.
This story isn't one of a drama queen, and it is becoming more and more common.
I think the trick is to do research before selecting a school. What scholarships are offered, what low rate loans, how does one qualify, etc.
The other avenue to take might be getting a cost effective, but lucrative degree in the construction/design field [such as CM, as you mentioned], and after completing a bachelors, going to the MArch. school of your choice. Surely 3 years is cheaper than 5 [or 6] years. and you might get into a better school, for the experience spent in real life. Acceptance commitees certainly recognize that an experienced construction manager can certainly offer valuable insight to their numerous english, philosphy and fine arts applicants.
Not to mention, in my opinion, there should be more people who understand both sides of the architecture and systems design V. construction and economy coin. Those people [few and far between] are truly valuable.
I'll sell you my degree for 25 bucks.
get the construction degree and work for a general contractor that does good work and works with architects...
you will be hands on, close to the construction process, maybe build some cool shit, and get paid a heck of a lot more than the architectural intern with the m. arch from columbia and 150,000 debt who built the 3D model of that project... if you later want to become an architect, your experience in construction will be valuable...
On a side note: higher education at alot of schools here in the States is insanely overpriced... Sorry, the schools may be *amazing* whatever that means and maybe you study with some starchitect for a term, but honestly, return on investment wise, dollars spent to salary after you graduate, it doesnt add up...
$250,000 in debt is IMHO ridiculous, a serious burden to be carrying around in a fledgling career in an industry that is highly cyclical and you may be out of work in downturns... Think of it this way: your rent + an added mortgage level debt for the next 30 years... How much will you need to earn after graduation to pay that and live well?
My advice: go to a good state school, ya maybe in the midwest or someplace affordable, do good work and have a great body of work in your portfolio and just work at cool firms once you graduate... it is more valuable and impressive to do cool shit and work at good offices than to go to an elite school and be massively crippled by debt... 2 cents... since in the end, it's not what school you went to or piece of paper you have, it's all about what you've done, what your work is like and how you learn and grow once out of school...
I am in a similar position to Zahu55; feeling crippled by the amount of debt I am racking up and unsure of what the future may hold. Thankfully I am not going to be $250k in debt but closer to $75k after receiving a M.Arch.
How did I justify going to a private American university? Well, going to a public university and working toward a M.Arch would incur the same amount of debt due to living expenses (currently living at home) and even if I got into my tuition-free dream school I would be spending nearly $75k to live in NYC during a 5 year B.Arch which is a regressive path towards professorship (career dream) compared to my school's 5 year M.Arch.
What were my other options? I could have incurred a bit less debt for a BFA in sculpture, which I understood as preceding a M.Arch. Or I could've attended a big name school for geography/liberal arts (full scholarship, paying for housing only) which I also understood as preceding a M.Arch in the long run. Both of those options would've made me older and more in the red at the end of my time in school. I decided to take a big hit from an early age and will work to pay it back as quick as possible. I will be 22 when I graduate with a M.Arch and 1 year of internships under my belt, which leaves years ahead of me to become licensed or get another degree.
Is it unreasonable to think I could be debt free before I am 30? I don't think so. At that point I hope to be happy and carrying years of experience. Dreams of playing in the NHL or touring with my band are gone...
kind of funny how everyone under 30 is so worried about there age, Life is not guaranteed people we could die tomorrow in a freak accident! live each day as well as you can.
Because you only get to be under 30 once. And your late twenties pretty much sets the tone of your entire life.
an entire life ... how long is that once again unicorn you are speaking as though life has been guaranteed to us. I've been to funerals for people of all ages, from babies, teenagers, adults, older adults, middle aged, Maybe that is whats wrong with architecture today, its being run by a bunch of people who are worried about getting old.
not trying to be a downer just saying try to enjoy every day you are alive.
I don't think I've ever been to a funeral in my whole life. Perhaps Don, you should stop killing everyone you meet you psycho!
As far as quarter million dollars in debt dilemma goes: finish your degree and leave the country. Go work in China or something. Live on rice and green tea while learning how to build stuff out of bamboo. Write a novel in Mandarin. Once you come back to US in a decade, the only form of currency will be bullets, cigarettes and toilet paper. Chinese construction companies will need native speakers to assist in building of sweat shops and factories.
You have to think long term.
1/4 million for an architecture degree is definitely too much.
if you are worried about quality of education you needn't assume the cost of school is equal to what you are going to get out of it. my m.arch. in rural canada was $8000 bucks tuition. total. for 2 1/2 years. actually less than that because i had a scholarship that covered about half the fee...
paying for house and keeping my family comfortable (was married with one child at the time) cost a bit more, but it was never that much.
The degree was more than enough. classmates went on to work for OMA and other similarly fancy starchitecture firms if that is any ind of validation of the curriculum. it was enough to get me into phd program at uni of tokyo with a full scholarship. it also was enough to be gainfully employed at offices in london and in japan and now to have own office with a group of like-minded folks.
all on $8k worth of education (and a lot of ambition, i freely admit).
an expensive education is great if you can afford it. if you cant then it simply means working harder and being more ambitious to get where you want to go. it doesn't mean you should go to crappy shcool or even a school you don't like. that makes just as little sense as spending so much cash to begin with.
funny enough my biz partner had a fantastic education in europe for free, studying under one of the best landscape architects in the world (adriaan geuze).
makes a body wonder just a bit about the future of america, doesn't it?
"I don't think I've ever been to a funeral in my whole life. Perhaps Don, you should stop killing everyone you meet you psycho!" -steelstuds
Steel stud,
first of all dumb ass i dont know where you got the idea that i kill people you idiot, and if you haven't payed any respects to your dearly departed then you should be ashamed of yourself you fucking asshole
Jump, when did you graduate though?
The only reason I ask is that it seems to be that standards-- although still there-- were largely unenforced.
I say that because pre-2000 internet didn't let employers be their own private investigators-- if degrees, criminal records, previous employment, credit histories et cetera were checked, that sort of process could take months to years.
Also, less skills were necessarily (although those limited skills are conceivably more difficult to master) to gain entry-level employment.
your the first person that i will accuse of being a Troll, get a life.
Model of Hierarchical Complexity.
Read it, skank.
correction you're sorry for misspelling in the middle of my pissed off rant.
250k debt for education is totally crazy.
It is like diving and looking for a "dreaming pearl" into a "250k mile deep ocean" without knowing how to swim and survive.
Take that 250k and buy a Ferrari. Seriously, it'll be a better investment, long term. You'll get plenty of chicks, too. Can't see how you can lose!
Having a dream doesn't justify every mistake you make.
Eventually it is you who have to clean up what you messed up
[url=http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/4981719716_aaaa6d0363_b.jpg]full size, hurrr durr[/img]
hurrrrrrrrrrr.
Professors, feel free to use it. Let me know!
Whoops, hur durr on me.
thats a nice chart unicorn.
I'd like to be adult about cussing out steelstuds earlier, totally wrong on my part to go off like that, even if he did call me a psycho killer. I just so happen to have read his comments about me at a very bad time.
ps. Ive only been here a short while, and each time I give some advice people either repeat what i say in a different way but we agree, and then i get guys that don't get what i say. I think archinect should thank me for saying things that cause people to post on here more often, I feel like I am a ratings booster or something.
Unicorn, it is a tough job market but I think the point jump is making, and is that how expensive a school is does not equate necessarily to a better education, snd even the prestige or name bling of a school is not as essential in the job market out of school as your work... There are good schools that are much more affordable, and no school or prestige, piece of paper guarantees you employment or success in career... Imho there is no substitute for ambition and hard work. You cannot buy a career IMHO, it takes personal investment and work...
There are plenty of IVY league graduates coming out of school who are crippled by debt now and are in basically the same boat, unable to find a job... And then there are graduates from University of Idaho, or Kansas State University, or Iowa State, Montana State, etc. or lesser known Canadian Universities who are doing great work, have gone on to successful careers at top firms... And may just have better work...
Now a day, architecture is the only field where a 'mediocrity' pretend a 'genius' just by attending a "dream" school and make a fantasy out of a school name using a naive belief for a "dream".
For me, that chart looks like a commercial scam blinding people to their realities using their naive fantasy.
There is such a huge range in the price paid for education and whether you pay $35,000 or $3,000 a year, you will graduate and be competing for the same job as the next guy, and will be commanding the same salary which will be related to what your work is like, what you can do, your experience level and skill sets, not how much debt you have incurred... Architecture jobs don't compensate for debt of education, and honestly I don't think they look much at where you graduated from...
I know what Jump (and you) was/were saying -- I just like to rib him... a lot.
But my graphic basically represents this... as we (or, you architect people) compete in the economy for work and money, we have to provide more complete and better projects.
We tend to discount things like sanitation (pipes and vents), electrification or energization (fuel, utility, gas, lighting, electric et cetera) as being marketable, architectural goods. Architects not even 100 years ago were patting each other on the ass for making sure rooms had light bulbs.
But let's just take the bottom "Basic Shelter" category:
Each triangle represents a yes/no, either or question. These questions would be:
1. Does the structure shield the occupant from the sun?
2. Does the structure keep the occupant dry?
3. Is the structure able to resist the force of gravity?
We can then assign bits to each individual response to the question. From there, we can generate a represented value of the structure. This value represents the hiearchal function of the structure.
Each question, itself, despite being yes or no answers also represent a methodology or action associated with them (dry= overhanging eaves, high ground, resistant to moisture... and so on).
This concept develops a matrix for determining the hierarchy of architectural product creation. One must learn each basic underlying sub routine before progressing onto a routine in a higher hierarchical routine.
Given this, these routines could also be mapped over a timeline showing how increasing complexity in the hierarchical construct has equivalent points along said timeline.
If one were to enter into this timeline earlier, then the number of learned subordinate and dominate routines in the hierarchical complex is fewer in numbers.
As the number of yes or no questions grows, so does the number of base (or sub-ordinate) routines-- meaning, to be able to address complex issues or answer complex questions based a number of interrelated subroutines... one has to know each individual subroutine.
While time-specific observations can determine the complex nature of said architectural product at that time-specific observation, this does not necessarily bar an individual from understanding, learning or developing new routines.
However, given that, new individuals have an increasing amount of hierarchical routines and subroutines to learn in addition to learning previous foundational subroutines.
In that assumption, price of education may have no direct impact on quality of education... but quality of education is dependent on the number of subroutines, routines and understanding of dominant hierarchical methodology.
Teaching any individual student every possible yes or no question within that hierarchal complex is solely dependent on the availability of every yes or no question to be answered and the availability of resources (physical, technical, academic, intellectual, emotional, social) to be used in demonstrating routines, processes and concepts behind every yes or no question.
How's that for arch speak?
2 related thoughts, ug:
1) ORGANIZATION: why an equilateral triangle? why not a right triangle or some other distribution to profitability vs liability? perhaps the knowledge pyramid should be completely disassociated from any insinuation about its relationship to liability or profitability? furthermore, why not a scatter plot or network diagram or histogram?
2) ASSUMPTIONS: why a hierarchy and why assume that knowledge builds upon other knowledge and why assume, "Teaching any individual...concepts behind every yes or no question"? why not disjunctive, messy relationships between knowledge domains with gaps? are you suggesting someone cannot understand/learn systems or conservation without first understanding design or basic programming?
No specific reasoning for an equilateral triangle. However, any other shape or representation used should have the ability to be fractional and demonstrate simple relationships.
You could easily invert this as a tree-- however, as a series of either or options, there's a finite amount of relations that could be drawn.
The liability and profitability portion works in some instances. If I only learn the first two or three bottom levels... my "product" is less than complete which equates it to being less than desirable-- demand equals price.
Liability increases when specific knowledge isn't necessarily related-back, i.e., proven, to earlier hierarchical routines.
Liability decreases when specific knowledge or instances are satisfied through application back to base subroutines.
The pinnacle of this particular hierarchy is integration -- i.e. BIM -- because integration demonstrates integration of the entire building under a singular system specifying what would be unknown dynamics in simpler hierarchies. A client cannot necessarily sue you if they were aware of a problem before it even existed.
"are you suggesting someone cannot understand/learn systems or conservation without first understanding design or basic programming?"
No. People can learn them. But application of said ideas to fulfill a yes-or-no question is what drives both price and liability.
Example:
I can know about all sorts of things about PV systems--
But do I know how to integrate them into the system?
Do I know how to integrate them within the electric system?
Do I know how to install a system to generate data for observation over the PV system?
Do I know how to get that data from the system?
Do I know how they will effect drainage?
Do I have to have knowledge about venting systems in order to place venting and corresponding sanitation systems in order to avoid conflicting use?
Do I know what increase or decrease in wind loads will they generate?
Do I know what increase or decrease in roof weight will result in greater or less sheer stresses?
Do I know whether the installation of a PV system will comprise the vapor barrier or membrane of the structure?
Do I know whether or not the roof will collapse from the structure?
And notice a trend-- the yes-or-no questions go from basic to complex. From "will the roof hold the weight?" to "will the roof hold the weight in a wind storm?" You decrease your value and increase your liability by simply not know everything.
A reductive model of hierarchical complexity is a concept of evaluating systems for the simple reason of representing complexity in a simplistic manner.
This is a little side project of mine I've been working on for some time.
have you ever looked at design system matrices?
http://www.dsmweb.org/
where you're going seems to work in concept, kind of, but seems to suffer from being a bit rigid in organization
the idea of using a decision matrix like you're doing is valid, but it seems that the matrix has to be flexible enough that it can be applied differently for any given design challenge
with something like the dsm matrices referenced in the link above, the use of such matrices helps one find relationships in any given situation as opposed to defining them --- that is, using dsm's is a way to analyze and manage the evolution of a design process, not prescribe it
if i am missing things or taking this in a direction you do not intend to go, just let me know --- broadly speaking, i am very interested in what you've presented in concept
you had another post which made me want to ask you, are you familiar with the work of Ugo Gagliardi or Pau de Sola-Morales Serra? Panos Papalambros? what about Alexander's, Notes on the Synthesis of Form? The work of John Fraser? Gordon Pask? Conversation Theory? Others who address issues which stem from systems engineering and/or computer science and/or controls and/or information management as related to architecture?
if so, maybe we can start a thread on this area. I would love that.
sorry UG that is too complicated for me.
i finished undergrad in 90's and m.arch in 2001 (just around 9/11 in fact). no i don't think standards have changed, neither for students nor for offices. there are more computers now, but i was using cad in undergrad and it was already in the offices too. the expectations from offices were no different then than now. they expected to see skills and ambition. that doesn't change just because of maya or rhino or BIM.
is that what you were trying to say?
brink has it right. it is not necessary to go to expensive school to land job at OMA or SOM or wherever. it is necessary to work hard. being smart helps too.
the always fun to read thomas friedman says that american students are lazier than ever and that is why america sucks (at least that is what he said in today's NY times). apparently it isn't the teachers and the school programs but the apathy of students that has set america on the downward path to mediocrity...
not that that has anything to do with anything.
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