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Wall tags on exterior walls?

Oct 1 '13 14 Last Comment
tagalong
Oct 1, 13 11:26 am

Does anyone put wall tags on their exterior walls of a ground up construction and then draw the assemblies on a wall/partition types page?

I just had a contractor (who is stressed out and behind schedule) call our drawings "retarded" and try and lecture me about where information should be in a drawing set because they missed  an exterior wall assembly detail due to that there's no wall type  called out with a a specific wall type drawing for this exterior wall. (I took him from the section cut line on the plan, to the building section, to the wall section call out, to the section detail call out.)

My understanding has always been that interior walls get tags and drawn on a wall type page and all of the exterior walls are detailed through the wall and section details.....

 

Jeremy MillerJeremy Miller
Oct 1, 13 12:12 pm

Yes, both interior & exterior walls need wall tags.  No excuse for him missing it on the section.  but it is a wall, and therefore should have a wall type.  Particularly if your exterior walls are different construction types (for instance, CMU back wall, light guage front wall.  or one wall is close to the property line, and therefore needs to be a Rated wall.)   Most likely, your building was pretty simple, and didn't have those differences in exterior wall types, since if it did you probably would have figured it out on your own that you needed exterior wall type.

thisisnotmyname
Oct 1, 13 12:38 pm

Nooooooo!  Show your exterior walls in wall sections, detailed like crazy.  Wall types are for repetitive interior partitions where air/water leakage are not a concern.  Rated walls are indicated on your life safety drawings.

curtkram
Oct 1, 13 1:13 pm

i agree with the above.  wall tags are for interior walls.  exterior walls should be detailed in section.  you should have a section of every condition for your exterior walls.

your contractor should not be calling you retarded.  first of all, that's just not a good name to call people.  second, he has a responsibility to review your drawings, and if he noticed that you left details out or if he doesn't understand something, he's supposed to contact you.  you really aren't responsible for his inability to manage his schedule.

tintt
Oct 1, 13 2:32 pm

you are right, wall tags are only for interior walls. Exterior walls are shown in section. That's not to say I haven't seen exterior walls tagged, but it is poor practice.

I think I know that contractor. Darrel and Darrel?

gruen
Oct 1, 13 6:31 pm

I tag my exterior walls and detail the critical areas. Exterior wall types are not poor practice, but a way of reducing errors, and reducing the number of notes required on wall sections and details. Please note that having exterior wall types does not eliminate the need to draw wall sections and details.

Noah Walker
Oct 1, 13 8:14 pm

I like to see exterior walls tagged.  It's not poor practice at all.

tintt
Oct 1, 13 8:25 pm

So the exterior walls are shown in two places, once as partition types AND again as wall sections? Why? I did specifically learn that this is bad, who cares what you like. Wall types are partition types. Exterior walls aren't partitions. Not that I really care...

Miles JaffeMiles Jaffe
Oct 1, 13 8:34 pm

Contractor Rule #1: When you fuck up, try to blame it on someone else.

won and done williams
Oct 1, 13 9:09 pm

Agree with there is no there. Never seen exterior walls tagged. Seems redundant with building sections/wall sections. Perhaps acceptable with residential as it is likely the same sub, but I don't have a lot of experience there to comment.

Steven WardSteven Ward
Oct 2, 13 7:27 am

if you're going to have specific details for exterior wall conditions, ALSO having a wall type assigned to the same wall is dangerous. it suggests uniformity where you need to be explicit about specificity. it may work for SOME exterior walls to have a wall type, if those walls have NO exceptional conditions. but just be clear about those walls that are not 'type'-ical that the information is given somewhere else. 

if a contractor is making assumptions about graphic standards and ways of putting sets together, shame on them. if your set doesn't clearly communicate the information they need, shame on you.

we don't build, we communicate. how you communicate most clearly is your responsibility. if you're using wall tags on exterior walls, tell someone so. if you're not, tell them where the information is. your set itself should be telling the contractor how they're expected to read it.

[honestly, it sounds like tagalong's set wasn't in conflict and that this WAS a case of contractor's assumptions. i'm just making a general comment.] 

Miles JaffeMiles Jaffe
Oct 2, 13 9:20 am


Duplication of information adds confusion and increases probability for error. Which detail is correct and are they even the same? Did both get revised? Etc.



Looking at an architect's drawings from a builder's perspective is quite informative. Architects who have construction experience draw differently from those who don't. 


geezertect
Oct 2, 13 9:50 am

I agree that duplication increases the probability of error and contradicitons, but that doesn't sound like what happened.  More likely, the contractor or subcontractor didn't look closely enough at ALL the drawings.  His fukkup, not yours.  He's just trying to find a scapegoat.  He's supposed to thoroughly review documents and familiarize himself with the scope of work, and get all questions answered prior to bidding and certainly prior to construction.  That's why your firms name and phone number is on the drawings.  Internal inconsistencies are your fault, but not the contractor's failure to do his job.

Paul MartinezPaul Martinez
Mar 1, 16 7:34 pm

Old thread, but figured I'd pitch in.

Historically I have never used wall tags for exterior walls.  As many have already stated, the information is covered by wall sections and section details.  Callouts on the plans can also provide information about the walls and how they change throughout the exterior (inside/outside corners, changes in material, etc.) Also, the exterior walls seldom are consistent enough to warrant having their own "type" in my case as well.  There would be a barrage of exterior wall types to detail, and then you would have to coordinate them with the wall sections and details as well--duplicate information across the set.

With software like Revit nowadays, one could argue that having duplicate information is not as bad as before because things are automated, i.e, you change it in once place, it changes throughout.  While this is true, it also means you now have to figure out which sheets were affected by your proposed changes, cloud them, and issue more sheets.  In CA, issuing an array of sheets for minor changes because the information was in multiple places is amateurish.  Not only that, but oftentimes you're managing multiple changes at once, and you can run into a serious dilemma.  Let's say you're managing changes for ASI 12 and 13, and both happen to affect the same sheet A201.  If you resolve ASI 12 but not ASI 13, do you issue the sheet?  Or do you wait until both are resolved?  If you issue the sheet without having resolved ASI 13, then there will be unclouded changes from ASI 13, and that's a problem.  If you wait until ASI 13 is resolved, turnaround time for issuing drawings will increase, and the contractor could possibly have a claim for a delay--another big problem.  If you avoid duplicate information, you lower your odds for running into this dilemma because there will be fewer sheets to change and therefore issue. This is another reason to not have an exterior wall type when your wall sections/details already provide that information.

For what it's worth, my work has been predominantly healthcare in Southern California.  Perhaps there's an expectation to tag exterior walls with other building types or in other localities.

bowling_ball
Mar 2, 16 1:34 am

I've tagged walls at every job I've had. This corresponds to an Assemblies legend, where each assembly is called out and drawn, with just enough info for the contractor to understand.  And exterior walls are "exterior wall types" while interior walls are "partition types."

This is expected by the AHJ here and is common practice.

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