I am seeking some additional perspective in creating a cost per square foot and price list sheet for some valued builders clients.
After submitting drawings for a small residential remodel, a busy builder (lots of work) asked if I had a price list for jobs that he had coming up shortly. "Shooting from the hip," I stated what I knew the market rate to be in Phoenix - b/n $4-7 / s.f. for commercial work and added that since I am a sole-prop w/ little overhead, I would charge on the lower end @ appr. $4 / s.f. I added the fact that was an estimate and would need to see the job site conditions / etc.
I understand from work on this past remodel job that I opened a door to the potential to a good working relationship w/ the potential for a significant amount of work.
I was hoping to get any additional advice for putting together a price list and discussing square footage costs - for example, a particular job that was mentioned was a 3,000 s.f. tenant improvement for a doctor's office.
I could be mistaken in your response, but I highly doubt a builder is looking to pay me 25% design fees based on construction costs. What he is looking for is an idea of what I charge per square foot and if I can articulate my process as well as I did on a simple residential remodel.
I appreciate your final question, as I had this issue in front of me w/ uncertainty. In the past, I have been paid by the contractor - meaning he was profiting off my services as a broker. Note that he did bring the client and job to me - so that is the situation of this relationship. I would assume that he's looking to run the job - and that is fine with me for how we've worked together, there's been no buttin' of heads.
So, again, I am fine w/ that - and as I mentioned, the dynamics of this relationship are:
-that he brings work to me, I bill at a profitable rate for my business as does he, and I acquire more work from him w/out marketing.
I understand that over reliance on this method of survival is not sustainable over the long run. But, I do recognize the benefits of this one relationship in addition to other jobs where my role is of the prime contract holder in a traditional sense.
Returning to the original question I raised, any advice on price list / cost per s.f. estimates? Very fundamental, but an important factor in a healthy operating architecture firm.
My friend's copmpany is building a database site for architects, engineers and other designers for just these types of price questions based on region, construction type and other factors. Its called - shortlister. Right now its private but it should be available for register in October. Send me an email on your questions and Ill see if I can get him to pull some priceing info for you. Or better yet sign you up for an account.
The problem is SF costs are generalizations that vary by region and complexity - its really tuff to nail down S/FT costs. Especially in a time with wild price swings. RS Means cost books come out every quarter so they are based on data 6 months out. A lot of Architects shy away from precise costing because if you've ever had to explain why your design came in 20% over budget, you would understand.
square foot costs for construction can already vary widely, even once a scope of work and complexity is already a known. square foot costs for architectural services - unless you have a really good tracking of how you yourself design and how much time it ALWAYS takes you (because you'd have to be incredibly consistent in your production for it to make any sense) seems crazy.
much better for you to agree on something based on hours that you're likely to expend. not that it has to be hourly, just that hours serve as the basis. we often do a lump sum, not-to-exceed price based on how much time we think we'll have in something. but the complexity of an individual project is likely to dramatically change how we calculate those hours.
sw,
i worked in an office that had such a sheet for simple TI and vanilla shell, and worked on a 4 or 5 tier pricing scheme depending upon the overall sf.
for a large office doing the same canned details it works out pretty well.
but it doesn't sound like this is who wNb is: a sole practitioner that does residential and some commercial, some new and some remodel. when i was on my own, knowing what to anticipate with any given project is pretty tough. i spent a lot of time sitting in meetings thinking 'nobody is drawing anything right now.'
if wNb wants to position himself as always TI/vanilla shell, then maybe. but he'd need to have a track record before committing to a sf cost, imo.
true.
i was going to add to the above post but left it off, "of course this works fine for a large office where they can absorb a few under-estimated jobs."
truth be told, i use that chart as another means by which i test fee calcs...if only to gauge what i'm doing against what i know another large office might do.
Cost per square foot / Price list for builder clients
I am seeking some additional perspective in creating a cost per square foot and price list sheet for some valued builders clients.
After submitting drawings for a small residential remodel, a busy builder (lots of work) asked if I had a price list for jobs that he had coming up shortly. "Shooting from the hip," I stated what I knew the market rate to be in Phoenix - b/n $4-7 / s.f. for commercial work and added that since I am a sole-prop w/ little overhead, I would charge on the lower end @ appr. $4 / s.f. I added the fact that was an estimate and would need to see the job site conditions / etc.
I understand from work on this past remodel job that I opened a door to the potential to a good working relationship w/ the potential for a significant amount of work.
I was hoping to get any additional advice for putting together a price list and discussing square footage costs - for example, a particular job that was mentioned was a 3,000 s.f. tenant improvement for a doctor's office.
Any insight will be appreciated...
remodels are based from budgets.....
i usually figure 25%design 25-35% for materials... the rest for labor for the build...... but i was the one designing and building...
shouldnt remodels bit a bit higher than new?.... considering that you would have to remeasure/document whats there?
one thing to think about is....will the builder pay you for your service or the client...... or are you being the GC on this?.....
food for thought
cryzko,
I could be mistaken in your response, but I highly doubt a builder is looking to pay me 25% design fees based on construction costs. What he is looking for is an idea of what I charge per square foot and if I can articulate my process as well as I did on a simple residential remodel.
I appreciate your final question, as I had this issue in front of me w/ uncertainty. In the past, I have been paid by the contractor - meaning he was profiting off my services as a broker. Note that he did bring the client and job to me - so that is the situation of this relationship. I would assume that he's looking to run the job - and that is fine with me for how we've worked together, there's been no buttin' of heads.
So, again, I am fine w/ that - and as I mentioned, the dynamics of this relationship are:
-that he brings work to me, I bill at a profitable rate for my business as does he, and I acquire more work from him w/out marketing.
I understand that over reliance on this method of survival is not sustainable over the long run. But, I do recognize the benefits of this one relationship in addition to other jobs where my role is of the prime contract holder in a traditional sense.
Returning to the original question I raised, any advice on price list / cost per s.f. estimates? Very fundamental, but an important factor in a healthy operating architecture firm.
My friend's copmpany is building a database site for architects, engineers and other designers for just these types of price questions based on region, construction type and other factors. Its called - shortlister. Right now its private but it should be available for register in October. Send me an email on your questions and Ill see if I can get him to pull some priceing info for you. Or better yet sign you up for an account.
So basically after 7 odd years of "architectural education" you don't know how much a s.f. will cost...
Yes, do you?
The problem is SF costs are generalizations that vary by region and complexity - its really tuff to nail down S/FT costs. Especially in a time with wild price swings. RS Means cost books come out every quarter so they are based on data 6 months out. A lot of Architects shy away from precise costing because if you've ever had to explain why your design came in 20% over budget, you would understand.
Are you asking for architectural fees cost per square foot?
Yes.
square foot costs for construction can already vary widely, even once a scope of work and complexity is already a known. square foot costs for architectural services - unless you have a really good tracking of how you yourself design and how much time it ALWAYS takes you (because you'd have to be incredibly consistent in your production for it to make any sense) seems crazy.
much better for you to agree on something based on hours that you're likely to expend. not that it has to be hourly, just that hours serve as the basis. we often do a lump sum, not-to-exceed price based on how much time we think we'll have in something. but the complexity of an individual project is likely to dramatically change how we calculate those hours.
sw,
i worked in an office that had such a sheet for simple TI and vanilla shell, and worked on a 4 or 5 tier pricing scheme depending upon the overall sf.
for a large office doing the same canned details it works out pretty well.
but it doesn't sound like this is who wNb is: a sole practitioner that does residential and some commercial, some new and some remodel. when i was on my own, knowing what to anticipate with any given project is pretty tough. i spent a lot of time sitting in meetings thinking 'nobody is drawing anything right now.'
if wNb wants to position himself as always TI/vanilla shell, then maybe. but he'd need to have a track record before committing to a sf cost, imo.
true.
i was going to add to the above post but left it off, "of course this works fine for a large office where they can absorb a few under-estimated jobs."
truth be told, i use that chart as another means by which i test fee calcs...if only to gauge what i'm doing against what i know another large office might do.
This is a helpful topic to me. Thanks
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