So I am a wrapping up a set of construction documents for a contractor. He had a set of plans laying around and he wanted me to convert it into a CD set to submit for the city. It's nothing amazing, just a bread and butter 3k residence. Something to learn from plus some extra change would be nice. I know architects have liability insurance to cover their butts in case something goes wrong. Now I'm a starving student with loans coming out of my eyeballs and the last thing I need is someone suing me. I'm just doing this for a few bucks on the side. Should I write up a waiver that I am not held responsible in case of anything? Or is it not even necessary?
Well I am scared they might sue me for my family assets which are under my name by law. This is something I don’t want to put me or my family at risk for.
No the house is about 3k sq. ft. and I am only charging $500 for the completed set. I am just taking a hand drawn architectural set and making a pretty CD set in Revit.
Usually in the upper right hand corner of the title block firms put their logo / address / phone #s. I made my own logo with ‘my last name’ Architecture” and my home address & phone number. Don’t know if I should put a phony baloney address and just change ‘architecture’ to ‘design services’.
As for “Design Intent Only Not for Construction”… I am not sure how the contractor or the city would feel about that. It’s like trying to submit to the city with a nice fat red N.F.C. water stamp.
Don't put your name on the drawings. If you feel some complelling need to do so, say "drafted by" and your name, and put a disclaimer on the drawings saying that they were drafted by you, and were drawn based on a set of construction drawings dated x/xx/0x provided by the contractor, previously prepared by xxxx architects.
If there is a designer or architect's name on the hand drawn drawings, and they are copywrited, that would be a more likely scenario for you to get sued.
You are not "last name architeture" in this case, you are "last name drafting", which from a liability and legal standpoint is better.
Get the contractor to sign something that says he acknolwledges that you provided only drafting services, and translated drawings that he provided into electronic CD's, but that you are not in any way responsible for the content of the drawings.
$500 is way too low for a fee, even for drafting. Even drafting services are at like $35 per our minimum.
Thanks archie. The designer is actually the owner. I believe he used to work in an architectural firm but once they traded the pencil for the mouse the architectural world spitted him out. I will give him credit, it is the most competent set of plans I’ve seen an actual owner put together. To get the contractor to sign something can I just paraphrase what you wrote and have him date and sign it?
I know… I feel like a cheap prostitute. I originally quoted him at $700 which is still low, but this is in Revit (still no excuse). He chewed me down to $500 saying he can still have someone do it for cheaper. If I was working in AutoCAD… hell no.
Depends. Are we working in ‘2D’ AutoCAD or Architectural Desktop? I have minimal knowledge in Architectural Desktop so I can not comment there. However if you are comparing with ‘2D’ AutoCAD, Revit has the upper hand. If you have a well established working file template and you are fluent in Revit it is very fast. I am 80% done with this set and its only been a weekend amount of work. The firm I work at only uses Revit. They tricked me into an AutoCAD position, then enforced me on day one to learn Revit. The first two months were frustrating (still is at times haha) and I thought Revit was just a big waste of time. One year later… I will not go to a firm that does not use Revit. I personally find it be an amazing (understatement) program to work in.
we wonder why fees are so low. did you ever think about the small firms that you just under cut for this illegal gig? a firm that charges more since they carry insurance.
Did you ever askyourself why did the contractor need another set of plans done in cad? if the set was competent he should have just made add'l sets. you just contributed to.
1. practicing architecture w/ out a licence.
2. copyright infringement.
3. artificially keeping architecture fees low.
4. are now responsible for that building. if they are following your plans. then it is all on you.
pray it doen't fall down. you got 14 years after it is substantialy complete to be on the hook.
be sure to disclose this on any future insurance policy you get too. if they find out they could void your insurance.
...for single family, residential, just use a disclaimer on the drawings stating the contractor is "responsible for the correctness of these drawings"etc...a common practice in many states.
also...an LLC , costs about 8$ to set up (with a business bank account) and these days in many states...and will protect your assets.
Even though some accuse of you undercutting, they might forgt that not all ugly litttle, homeonwer-designed buidling projects require a full suite of Architectural services....there are loads of draftperson submittals in every major municap building depts.
Many involve "homeowner permits", and structurally engineered drawings, that really don't need an Architect.
No one blames you forgoing shitty 10$ hr intern jobs or alittle sidework so you can strike out on their own.
When I was commissioned for the job the contractor said he will set me up as an in-house drafter. So this week I am going to ask him if I can put his name / logo on the drawings so that it is his property and not mine. So this will remove me from all liabilities and cover my 'ass'.
I'm sorry if I insulted the profession in charging the amount that I did but there is a market out there for budget drafting / design work. Like ff33º nailed on the head. A lot of people simply can't afford or need full design services from licensed architects who write up a $100k + contracts. Yes I know our wages are horrible in this career, but I am out there being an entrepreneur and trying to do my own thing.
the deal is know what you can do and for how much.
we did sock plans- still do. complete sets of drawings from our portfolio. charged $2,000- 3000 each and made a profit. not loads, but doing 4 per month kept a jr. guy at our office employed making 45k per year.
In our state everything must be stamped - except in unincorporated residential areas.
dsc,
with all due respect, what does that have to do with anything..? The kid comes on here genuinely looking for advice, only to get you grindin' on the politics of what he is trying to do .. All those numbered things you claim are useless to McTaco. It is obvious you gave a chip on you shoulder about anyone that didn't execute a 'rank and file' NCARB slavery, but... please spare us the stories about the amazing "sock plans" money you made...
I think archie called the specific advice perfectly.
I also think everything dsc-arch said is correct.
We should all keep in mind that we are members of a shared profession, and we all want the profesison to thrive, just as we all need to remember that in any specific situation we may need quick cash. Balancing those two conflicts is difficult and the sign of professionalism is knowing how to do so.
McTaco, I'm registered, and incorporated, but I do not carry professional liability insurance. For the very small residential jobs I do, it's a minimal liability risk. That said, I'm not ever passing off drawings to any contractor I don't intend to work continuously with through the construction process. I'm protected by personal relationships, basically, which it sounds like you don't have in this case.
One option is to write "Issued for Permit" on the drawings; this implies that they are not necessarily for construction, without flat-out saying so. It also implies that you are specifically covering only the items needed for a permit (wall section) but nothing else (cabinet details).
Do you think it would still be a problem if he establishes me as an in-house drafter? I rather put his name on the drawings instead of mine. Technically this would give him full ownership of the drawings with no liabilities on my half.
dsc,
clever analogy.
I personally skipped the whole intern process..as unusual as this sounds..and so i get punchy when i see rigid dogma from old timers. around the path to Licensure,
So i wont argue much more... to explain, I am just defensive when it comes to this particular debate . My core feelings don;t favor orthodoxy if it means indoctrination into a "mediocrity". My disdain for establishment aside, I see your's and LB's points...
I would defiantly have him “hire you” as an employee. If he has other employees this is no big deal. Then the onerous is all on the contractor since your work is "for hire".
LB. Our E & O runs about $7,000 per year. (Based on their calculus of $350,000 of fees related to work that is actually built) I find that it is a small price to pay for a 14 years worth of good night sleeps.
I don't think it makes any sense to hire someone as an employee for 20 hours of work Just get the disclaimer that you are acting as a draftsman for him.
Definitely put his name on the drawings, not yours
Disc, I apprecieate where you are coming from with your comments, but the poor guy is not practicing architecture without a license. He is practicing his drafting only. No license required!! And he cleared up the copyright problem- the owner produced the drawings.
Its kind of like someone word processing a legal document that someone handwrote up. You aren't saying you are a lawyer, just a typist. As long as it is clear between the two of them (in writing!) what is being provided, he is OK.
One other thing- Having a license and having skill, knowledge and talent are not the same thing. Yes, the process is long and expensive. But there are those who do not have the opportunity to go down that path that are skilled, knowledgable and talented. I have several employees who went to art school or a non- architecture school, or drafting school, and they are as capable, or in some cases more capable than someone who went to architecture school and is licensed. Those of us who have a license are not necessarily any "better" than those who don't. It might just mean we had the means and direction as an 18 year old to head off to college. We already have an advantage over those who do not have a license: they have to work for us, and do not have a choice to start their own practice. We don't need to assume they are all hacks. I know plenty of licensed architects I would rather put in that category.
Taco - Mies, Corb and FLW had already completed a portfolio of buildings by the time they were 25. I wonder what the insurance landscape was like then.
We will be lucky to get a building built to call our own by the time we are 40 now days.
I am still not sure if the drawings were prepared by the client or the contractor. The client could be the contractor but it is not clear.
Again you miss the point, he is holding himself out as providing architecture services if he is not employed by the Contractor. Fundamental to the architecture process is converting concept plans to construction documents. If it is straight conversion from blueprints to cad w/ no changes I agree that it is merely copying protected work from one medium to another and Mc taco is merely assisting in copyright infringement if the contractor is not the author of the concept plans.
My guess is that it is more than that.
My question becomes who is sizing the beams, who has checked the site setbacks, who has done Rescheck, who has completed the light and vent calculations, who has decided which were the egress windows? How much is changing during the conversion process? If they were good drawings to begin with why are they being converted?
BTW I have a number staff who have taken the non traditional path to architecture and are vital to our company. Furthermore, I sit on a steering committee that develops the classes at the local JC for those not wanting to go the traditional route a career in architecture.
Update. The contactor has given me permission to give him ownership of the drawings. My name will not appear anywhere. I am not even going to bother with the disclaimer.
dsc_arch
To clear things up... the client is paying the contractor and the contractor is paying me. The drawings belong to the client and was hand drawn by the client himself who then gave it to the contractor to get them redrawn in CD form to submit to the city. Thats where I step in. What I meant by 'a competent set' is that the clients drafting of the floor plan were all accurately reflected elevations, sections, roof framing plan, etc... Its far from city submital.
My comment deals strictly with the ironic reasoning behind asking less money for doing a project with a more advanced software that allows you to do it 'faster' or more 'organized.' Nothing wrong with making extra scratch, but put some value to your skillz! The savings due to time should be in your pocket, not someone else's.
"Ah, so this is an "I designed it myself, the architect just drew up the plans" situation".
Not only does this break many architects hearts, it also breaks many states professional practice laws. In California, Georgia, Maryland, Colorado and NY, you would effectively be "aiding and abbedding" someone who is voilating the architects practice at of that respective state.
This is why I hate Architects. So fucking uptight about a freaking earnest freelance draftsman's need of advice. Some poor kid's obvious innocent thread turned into a political debate on legitimacy of authorship and legalities...
McTaco..just draw the ugly ass building already..I am sure it will be fine.
Luis,
You are right. He wants me to work on another set of plans but I am going to raise my fees a little higher. If he doesn't like it he can find someone else to do the drawings. I feel he trying to push his weight with me... asking if I can charge him cheaper for the drawings I've completed.
Push everything on the side this is a good experience for me. I'm young, don't have that much confidence and that is something I want to work.
LB,
I'm not labeling myself as an architect but yes that is what I am doing. From the e-mails he has sent it wasn't the owner who designed these plans. He has two friends that meet up with the clients and they 'design' the house for them. They set up a rough set for the contractor who then hands it to the drafter (me).
Santa Fe cluster box. Need I say more? I've seen better designs in those $3.99 Victorian Floor Plan Magazines they sell at Wal-Mart. Again I am not doing it for the architecture... as of right now. I'm doing it for the experience. Its tideous but I hope one day I can do stuff that I enjoy... as for right now it's the bread and butter.
ff33º
Thanks again, I've seen similar posts like this and I knew there were going to be those opposed to the situation. Again I don't think it's that much to worry about now that the drawings are not under my name.
That's the balance I was speaking about above McTaco - you know what you're getting out of this job: a big learning experience and some needed cash. The former is fantastic, the latter is understandable.
ff33, this is why you hate architects, aka professionals: we are professionals because we see the bigger picture: that's our role, and it's both impossible to escape and we shouldn't want to do so.
I'll be clear: McTaco, I'm not judging you for "misrepresenting yourself" or whatever here. It's good you're learning - that's what we all have to do especially recently out of school - and those little injections of cash are always welcome. We've all done it; the important thing is to learn from the experience.
What makes me sad is that the world views us as easily bought draftsmen. And economics force us to often assume that role. It's a long hard path we're on.
lb,
I was sort kidding with myeslf when I wrote that. I will be licensed one day too,..so I hope I don't sound like an ass...this thread's policital propriety explressed by undoubetedly , "old timers" on a kid's prospects, just erks me... I mean we all know many contractors will choose a draftsperson over a Registered Architect when the projects is pretty straight forward...yet Architects on these threads tend to assume to a birthright of all general, however banal, design work
I guess where is the line drawn. Are homes not worthy of a solid set of code compliant documents?
Should homes be under the auspices of a nurse practioner?
Depending on your state laws the contractor can take the drawings and shaft paying you b/c you are not licenced. Worse if he was a real dick he could make you pay to get them redrawn by an architect. This is possible in Illinois.
Just be careful and remember your short term cash is going to contine to set the bar for similar services later on.
does your $500 service include corrections/changes? i assume it doesn't but that should be made clear to the contractor that any changes beyond the original plans and aren't your 'mistakes' are extra.
this is not a grey area issue...Laws must be followed and if you don't you'll end up in court. What may seem "uptight" on the surface might end up saving from making a mistake and end up paying a $1000+ fine or ending up in court....
Comm 20.09 Procedures for obtaining uniform
building permit. 1 and two family dwellings.
3. Except as required under s. Comm 21.33, a municipality
exercising jurisdiction may not require plans or calculations to be
stamped by an architect or engineer.
Comm 61.20 Responsibilities.
443.15 Exempt buildings. (1) Nothing in this chapter prevents any person from advertising and performing services, including consultation, investigation, evaluation, in connection with and making plans and specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alterations of any of the following buildings:
(a) Dwellings for single families, and outbuildings in connection with single−family dwellings, including, but not limited to, barns and private garages.
(b) Apartment buildings used exclusively as the residence of not more than 2 families.
(c) Buildings used exclusively for agricultural purposes.
(d) Temporary buildings or sheds used exclusively for construction purposes, not exceeding 2 stories in height, and not used for living quarters.
(2) Nothing in this chapter prevents any person, firm or corporation from makingplans and specifications for or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration ofany new building containing less than 50,000 cubic feet total volume or addition to a building which by reason of such addition results in a building containing less than
50,000 cubic feet total volume or structural alteration to a building containing less than 50,000 cubic feet total volume. Nothing in this chapter prevents any person, firm or corporation from making repairs or interior alterations to buildings which do not affect health or safety.
(3) Any multiple family building having a common roof and party walls shall be deemed a single building for purposes of this section.
(4) This section does not apply to inspection and service work done by employees of insurance rating bureaus, insurance service bureaus, insurance companies or insurance agents.
History: CR 00−179: cr. Register December 2001 No. 552, eff. 7−1−02.
Liability Waiver?
So I am a wrapping up a set of construction documents for a contractor. He had a set of plans laying around and he wanted me to convert it into a CD set to submit for the city. It's nothing amazing, just a bread and butter 3k residence. Something to learn from plus some extra change would be nice. I know architects have liability insurance to cover their butts in case something goes wrong. Now I'm a starving student with loans coming out of my eyeballs and the last thing I need is someone suing me. I'm just doing this for a few bucks on the side. Should I write up a waiver that I am not held responsible in case of anything? Or is it not even necessary?
"Design Intent Only Not for Construction"
how does any building department issue a permit with that on the drawings????
Well I am scared they might sue me for my family assets which are under my name by law. This is something I don’t want to put me or my family at risk for.
No the house is about 3k sq. ft. and I am only charging $500 for the completed set. I am just taking a hand drawn architectural set and making a pretty CD set in Revit.
Usually in the upper right hand corner of the title block firms put their logo / address / phone #s. I made my own logo with ‘my last name’ Architecture” and my home address & phone number. Don’t know if I should put a phony baloney address and just change ‘architecture’ to ‘design services’.
As for “Design Intent Only Not for Construction”… I am not sure how the contractor or the city would feel about that. It’s like trying to submit to the city with a nice fat red N.F.C. water stamp.
Don't put your name on the drawings. If you feel some complelling need to do so, say "drafted by" and your name, and put a disclaimer on the drawings saying that they were drafted by you, and were drawn based on a set of construction drawings dated x/xx/0x provided by the contractor, previously prepared by xxxx architects.
If there is a designer or architect's name on the hand drawn drawings, and they are copywrited, that would be a more likely scenario for you to get sued.
You are not "last name architeture" in this case, you are "last name drafting", which from a liability and legal standpoint is better.
Get the contractor to sign something that says he acknolwledges that you provided only drafting services, and translated drawings that he provided into electronic CD's, but that you are not in any way responsible for the content of the drawings.
$500 is way too low for a fee, even for drafting. Even drafting services are at like $35 per our minimum.
I am just taking a hand drawn architectural set and making a pretty CD set in Revit.
just be prepared to be able to prove this and make copies/duplicates of the hand drawn set for your file/record.
archie beat me to it...
Thanks archie. The designer is actually the owner. I believe he used to work in an architectural firm but once they traded the pencil for the mouse the architectural world spitted him out. I will give him credit, it is the most competent set of plans I’ve seen an actual owner put together. To get the contractor to sign something can I just paraphrase what you wrote and have him date and sign it?
I know… I feel like a cheap prostitute. I originally quoted him at $700 which is still low, but this is in Revit (still no excuse). He chewed me down to $500 saying he can still have someone do it for cheaper. If I was working in AutoCAD… hell no.
So would draughtsperson be a better title for myself instead of draftsman?
I'm not a lawyer, but just write what you want to say clearly and simply, and have him sign it. It is better than nothing!
So is Revit really faster than AutoCAD? We have found it to take about the same time to do a set of cd's.
Thanks again.
Depends. Are we working in ‘2D’ AutoCAD or Architectural Desktop? I have minimal knowledge in Architectural Desktop so I can not comment there. However if you are comparing with ‘2D’ AutoCAD, Revit has the upper hand. If you have a well established working file template and you are fluent in Revit it is very fast. I am 80% done with this set and its only been a weekend amount of work. The firm I work at only uses Revit. They tricked me into an AutoCAD position, then enforced me on day one to learn Revit. The first two months were frustrating (still is at times haha) and I thought Revit was just a big waste of time. One year later… I will not go to a firm that does not use Revit. I personally find it be an amazing (understatement) program to work in.
we wonder why fees are so low. did you ever think about the small firms that you just under cut for this illegal gig? a firm that charges more since they carry insurance.
Did you ever askyourself why did the contractor need another set of plans done in cad? if the set was competent he should have just made add'l sets. you just contributed to.
1. practicing architecture w/ out a licence.
2. copyright infringement.
3. artificially keeping architecture fees low.
4. are now responsible for that building. if they are following your plans. then it is all on you.
pray it doen't fall down. you got 14 years after it is substantialy complete to be on the hook.
be sure to disclose this on any future insurance policy you get too. if they find out they could void your insurance.
good luck. you are screwed.
- you just learned all you need to know about this guy.
run like the wind, McTaco ... run like the wind.
McTaco you should be fine....
...for single family, residential, just use a disclaimer on the drawings stating the contractor is "responsible for the correctness of these drawings"etc...a common practice in many states.
also...an LLC , costs about 8$ to set up (with a business bank account) and these days in many states...and will protect your assets.
Even though some accuse of you undercutting, they might forgt that not all ugly litttle, homeonwer-designed buidling projects require a full suite of Architectural services....there are loads of draftperson submittals in every major municap building depts.
Many involve "homeowner permits", and structurally engineered drawings, that really don't need an Architect.
No one blames you forgoing shitty 10$ hr intern jobs or alittle sidework so you can strike out on their own.
When I was commissioned for the job the contractor said he will set me up as an in-house drafter. So this week I am going to ask him if I can put his name / logo on the drawings so that it is his property and not mine. So this will remove me from all liabilities and cover my 'ass'.
I'm sorry if I insulted the profession in charging the amount that I did but there is a market out there for budget drafting / design work. Like ff33º nailed on the head. A lot of people simply can't afford or need full design services from licensed architects who write up a $100k + contracts. Yes I know our wages are horrible in this career, but I am out there being an entrepreneur and trying to do my own thing.
"don't hate the player , hate the game..."
-Ice-t
the deal is know what you can do and for how much.
we did sock plans- still do. complete sets of drawings from our portfolio. charged $2,000- 3000 each and made a profit. not loads, but doing 4 per month kept a jr. guy at our office employed making 45k per year.
In our state everything must be stamped - except in unincorporated residential areas.
dsc,
with all due respect, what does that have to do with anything..? The kid comes on here genuinely looking for advice, only to get you grindin' on the politics of what he is trying to do .. All those numbered things you claim are useless to McTaco. It is obvious you gave a chip on you shoulder about anyone that didn't execute a 'rank and file' NCARB slavery, but... please spare us the stories about the amazing "sock plans" money you made...
"good luck. you are screwed."
ff33deg.
my chip is you should not be putting yourself out there as an architect unless you are one.
yes the process is hard. the exam in hard. I earned the right to call myself an architect with all of the rights and privileges there of.
NCARB, right or wrong, is the process. It is the path. circumventing it is like giving the secrets of the order to those who are uninitiated.
I think archie called the specific advice perfectly.
I also think everything dsc-arch said is correct.
We should all keep in mind that we are members of a shared profession, and we all want the profesison to thrive, just as we all need to remember that in any specific situation we may need quick cash. Balancing those two conflicts is difficult and the sign of professionalism is knowing how to do so.
McTaco, I'm registered, and incorporated, but I do not carry professional liability insurance. For the very small residential jobs I do, it's a minimal liability risk. That said, I'm not ever passing off drawings to any contractor I don't intend to work continuously with through the construction process. I'm protected by personal relationships, basically, which it sounds like you don't have in this case.
One option is to write "Issued for Permit" on the drawings; this implies that they are not necessarily for construction, without flat-out saying so. It also implies that you are specifically covering only the items needed for a permit (wall section) but nothing else (cabinet details).
Thanks LB,
Do you think it would still be a problem if he establishes me as an in-house drafter? I rather put his name on the drawings instead of mine. Technically this would give him full ownership of the drawings with no liabilities on my half.
dsc,
clever analogy.
I personally skipped the whole intern process..as unusual as this sounds..and so i get punchy when i see rigid dogma from old timers. around the path to Licensure,
So i wont argue much more... to explain, I am just defensive when it comes to this particular debate . My core feelings don;t favor orthodoxy if it means indoctrination into a "mediocrity". My disdain for establishment aside, I see your's and LB's points...
Mc Taco,
I would defiantly have him “hire you” as an employee. If he has other employees this is no big deal. Then the onerous is all on the contractor since your work is "for hire".
LB. Our E & O runs about $7,000 per year. (Based on their calculus of $350,000 of fees related to work that is actually built) I find that it is a small price to pay for a 14 years worth of good night sleeps.
I don't think it makes any sense to hire someone as an employee for 20 hours of work Just get the disclaimer that you are acting as a draftsman for him.
Definitely put his name on the drawings, not yours
Disc, I apprecieate where you are coming from with your comments, but the poor guy is not practicing architecture without a license. He is practicing his drafting only. No license required!! And he cleared up the copyright problem- the owner produced the drawings.
Its kind of like someone word processing a legal document that someone handwrote up. You aren't saying you are a lawyer, just a typist. As long as it is clear between the two of them (in writing!) what is being provided, he is OK.
One other thing- Having a license and having skill, knowledge and talent are not the same thing. Yes, the process is long and expensive. But there are those who do not have the opportunity to go down that path that are skilled, knowledgable and talented. I have several employees who went to art school or a non- architecture school, or drafting school, and they are as capable, or in some cases more capable than someone who went to architecture school and is licensed. Those of us who have a license are not necessarily any "better" than those who don't. It might just mean we had the means and direction as an 18 year old to head off to college. We already have an advantage over those who do not have a license: they have to work for us, and do not have a choice to start their own practice. We don't need to assume they are all hacks. I know plenty of licensed architects I would rather put in that category.
archie
Your previous post of disclaimer on this liability issue was classic.
However, you don't need a license to own an architectural firm. At least in wisconsin.
Taco next time you are low balled - raise your price. If you let contractors push you around now. They will forever.
Taco - Mies, Corb and FLW had already completed a portfolio of buildings by the time they were 25. I wonder what the insurance landscape was like then.
We will be lucky to get a building built to call our own by the time we are 40 now days.
I am still not sure if the drawings were prepared by the client or the contractor. The client could be the contractor but it is not clear.
Again you miss the point, he is holding himself out as providing architecture services if he is not employed by the Contractor. Fundamental to the architecture process is converting concept plans to construction documents. If it is straight conversion from blueprints to cad w/ no changes I agree that it is merely copying protected work from one medium to another and Mc taco is merely assisting in copyright infringement if the contractor is not the author of the concept plans.
My guess is that it is more than that.
My question becomes who is sizing the beams, who has checked the site setbacks, who has done Rescheck, who has completed the light and vent calculations, who has decided which were the egress windows? How much is changing during the conversion process? If they were good drawings to begin with why are they being converted?
BTW I have a number staff who have taken the non traditional path to architecture and are vital to our company. Furthermore, I sit on a steering committee that develops the classes at the local JC for those not wanting to go the traditional route a career in architecture.
it's an interesting, and ironic, fact of history that architects didn't really start getting sued until they started carrying E&O insurance.
you can't get blood out of a stone.
Update. The contactor has given me permission to give him ownership of the drawings. My name will not appear anywhere. I am not even going to bother with the disclaimer.
dsc_arch
To clear things up... the client is paying the contractor and the contractor is paying me. The drawings belong to the client and was hand drawn by the client himself who then gave it to the contractor to get them redrawn in CD form to submit to the city. Thats where I step in. What I meant by 'a competent set' is that the clients drafting of the floor plan were all accurately reflected elevations, sections, roof framing plan, etc... Its far from city submital.
My comment deals strictly with the ironic reasoning behind asking less money for doing a project with a more advanced software that allows you to do it 'faster' or more 'organized.' Nothing wrong with making extra scratch, but put some value to your skillz! The savings due to time should be in your pocket, not someone else's.
Ah, so this is an "I designed it myself, the architect just drew up the plans" situation.
Kinda breaks my heart that this is how the world sees us. The struggle continues.
So McTaco, did any of it suck? Did the client have stupid ideas that you had to grit your teeth not to improve?
"Ah, so this is an "I designed it myself, the architect just drew up the plans" situation".
Not only does this break many architects hearts, it also breaks many states professional practice laws. In California, Georgia, Maryland, Colorado and NY, you would effectively be "aiding and abbedding" someone who is voilating the architects practice at of that respective state.
Ignorance is never a defense for braking the law.
Actually, I have one client in particular I wouldn't mind "aiding and abedding".
This is why I hate Architects. So fucking uptight about a freaking earnest freelance draftsman's need of advice. Some poor kid's obvious innocent thread turned into a political debate on legitimacy of authorship and legalities...
McTaco..just draw the ugly ass building already..I am sure it will be fine.
Luis,
You are right. He wants me to work on another set of plans but I am going to raise my fees a little higher. If he doesn't like it he can find someone else to do the drawings. I feel he trying to push his weight with me... asking if I can charge him cheaper for the drawings I've completed.
Push everything on the side this is a good experience for me. I'm young, don't have that much confidence and that is something I want to work.
LB,
I'm not labeling myself as an architect but yes that is what I am doing. From the e-mails he has sent it wasn't the owner who designed these plans. He has two friends that meet up with the clients and they 'design' the house for them. They set up a rough set for the contractor who then hands it to the drafter (me).
Santa Fe cluster box. Need I say more? I've seen better designs in those $3.99 Victorian Floor Plan Magazines they sell at Wal-Mart. Again I am not doing it for the architecture... as of right now. I'm doing it for the experience. Its tideous but I hope one day I can do stuff that I enjoy... as for right now it's the bread and butter.
ff33º
Thanks again, I've seen similar posts like this and I knew there were going to be those opposed to the situation. Again I don't think it's that much to worry about now that the drawings are not under my name.
opps wrong handle. I'm McTaco by the way to avoid confusion.
I have different computers with different cookies. long story
That's the balance I was speaking about above McTaco - you know what you're getting out of this job: a big learning experience and some needed cash. The former is fantastic, the latter is understandable.
ff33, this is why you hate architects, aka professionals: we are professionals because we see the bigger picture: that's our role, and it's both impossible to escape and we shouldn't want to do so.
I'll be clear: McTaco, I'm not judging you for "misrepresenting yourself" or whatever here. It's good you're learning - that's what we all have to do especially recently out of school - and those little injections of cash are always welcome. We've all done it; the important thing is to learn from the experience.
What makes me sad is that the world views us as easily bought draftsmen. And economics force us to often assume that role. It's a long hard path we're on.
lb,
I was sort kidding with myeslf when I wrote that. I will be licensed one day too,..so I hope I don't sound like an ass...this thread's policital propriety explressed by undoubetedly , "old timers" on a kid's prospects, just erks me... I mean we all know many contractors will choose a draftsperson over a Registered Architect when the projects is pretty straight forward...yet Architects on these threads tend to assume to a birthright of all general, however banal, design work
I guess where is the line drawn. Are homes not worthy of a solid set of code compliant documents?
Should homes be under the auspices of a nurse practioner?
Depending on your state laws the contractor can take the drawings and shaft paying you b/c you are not licenced. Worse if he was a real dick he could make you pay to get them redrawn by an architect. This is possible in Illinois.
Just be careful and remember your short term cash is going to contine to set the bar for similar services later on.
does your $500 service include corrections/changes? i assume it doesn't but that should be made clear to the contractor that any changes beyond the original plans and aren't your 'mistakes' are extra.
this is not a grey area issue...Laws must be followed and if you don't you'll end up in court. What may seem "uptight" on the surface might end up saving from making a mistake and end up paying a $1000+ fine or ending up in court....
State Of Wisconsin
Comm 20.09 Procedures for obtaining uniform
building permit. 1 and two family dwellings.
3. Except as required under s. Comm 21.33, a municipality
exercising jurisdiction may not require plans or calculations to be
stamped by an architect or engineer.
Comm 61.20 Responsibilities.
443.15 Exempt buildings. (1) Nothing in this chapter prevents any person from advertising and performing services, including consultation, investigation, evaluation, in connection with and making plans and specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alterations of any of the following buildings:
(a) Dwellings for single families, and outbuildings in connection with single−family dwellings, including, but not limited to, barns and private garages.
(b) Apartment buildings used exclusively as the residence of not more than 2 families.
(c) Buildings used exclusively for agricultural purposes.
(d) Temporary buildings or sheds used exclusively for construction purposes, not exceeding 2 stories in height, and not used for living quarters.
(2) Nothing in this chapter prevents any person, firm or corporation from makingplans and specifications for or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration ofany new building containing less than 50,000 cubic feet total volume or addition to a building which by reason of such addition results in a building containing less than
50,000 cubic feet total volume or structural alteration to a building containing less than 50,000 cubic feet total volume. Nothing in this chapter prevents any person, firm or corporation from making repairs or interior alterations to buildings which do not affect health or safety.
(3) Any multiple family building having a common roof and party walls shall be deemed a single building for purposes of this section.
(4) This section does not apply to inspection and service work done by employees of insurance rating bureaus, insurance service bureaus, insurance companies or insurance agents.
History: CR 00−179: cr. Register December 2001 No. 552, eff. 7−1−02.
that sucks...
I hope most other states do not follow that route.
btw. I am licenced in wisconsin.
Why does it suck?
I assumed you were licensed in WI which is why I posted it for you.
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