Also, because my first post strayed from the thread title a bit, how much would you be willing to take out in loans to go to a 3 year M.Arch program assuming it is a program that you want to attend (not necessarily Pratt as in my case)?

No reason to take any time off, especially if you didn't go for an arch undergrad (I did and didn't take time off, would have just wasted time between education, working in the summer is enough).

I borrowed a ton, but went to a state school for grad (UCLA), so it was quite reasonable with/without their money.  

$150k is waaaaay too much, imho.  I have 7 years of arch school and it came nowhere near that!

Completely randomly and off the top of my head, I'd say 30-50k borrowed is reasonable (again, no reasoning there, just seems 'ok').

Now, if I were to do it over again I'd get an MBA at the same time.  If you could do that, from a decent school, I'd say you could triple those numbers and it'd be worth it.

The general advice financial planners give is to borrow no more than what you expect to make in your first year's salary. Thus trace's $30-50K is in the ballpark. Having graduated with close to $80K and intending to pay it off over 30 years, I wish I would have paid more attention to this advice before I started school. Not that I would have decided not to go or would have gone to a cheaper school, I just would have watched my money a little closer while in school (way too many meals out, nights at the bar, road trips, unnecessary books and supplies, foolish little purchases, etc.).

Gold is the money of kings, silver the money of gentlemen, barter the money of the poor and debt is the money of slaves.  - (Frank?)

I highly encourage you not to take out any debt period.  I would say, a max amount you could take out would be for a new car. Then when you get that first job, drive a clunker until you pay off your student loans. $150k is setting yourself up for disaster. That money would be much better spent investing in cash flowing foreclosures. 

When most people say that student loans are good debt, they are simple regurgitating some crap they heard from one of their professors who makes his living based on that good debt. They only good debt that exists is debt that someone else is paying for and that you are getting paid to hold.  Don't do it!

*of course if you were extremely lucky, you could take out that debt right now at an extremely low interest rate. Then if the dollar was to collapse in hyperinflation, your debt would be almost worthless at that point. I wouldn't make this kind of bet.

A lot of people say avoid taking out loans. While this would be great, it's unrealistic. If you've got a fire up your ass, you can make it happen, no doubt about it. However, the price of school is going up faster than ever and the necessity for an advanced or professional degree is increasing as well. Lastly, everything works on a curve. Only a very small percentage of architects ever make 7 figure salaries, and only a small percentage of people ever get full tuition + stipen, or have time to work a job while completing school. 

Simple fact is most people going for an advanced degree, and financing an education on their own need to take out loans. The most prudent move is to plan everything responsibly. Take the average architect salary (Assume that if you have a job) you will make around 40K (assuming some recovery and slight increase in salary).  Imagine that lifestyle, when loans, rent, bills etc. are taken out. Truth is, if you have 150Kish out, it's doable over 30 years, but you better really want to be an architect because you will lead a more modest lifestyle than most of the people you know. For the people who think 80 is a lot in loans, that amount is almost hard to avoid by the time you get an M.Arch, especially if one of the schools is private. 

This is just the opinion of someone who has spent way to much time looking into this.

you meant "Only a very small percentage of architects ever make 6 figure salaries"

The architecture schools need to be burned down, they are not schools but tools of architectural destruction.  If you want to make 6 figures learn how to build buildings and not just talk about them.

MArch dont mean shit. Dont take out $150k that you will never be able to repay. Find yourself a job (architecture or not) and work for a while

The whole 'I cant get a job so I'm going to fuck off in school for a while on borrowed money' is a dangerous mindset to get into

Jordans99, you are right that an incredibly large number of students are taking on massive debt to go to school *just now.* in fact, total student loan debt just broke 1 trillion, but it was only 200 billion a mere 10 years ago. That means that students who have gone to school in the last ten years have taken on five times as much debt as everyone else in the workforce combined. But they still have to compete for the same jobs, which means that, in a pinch, you'd have to earn about $1,000 a month more than someone with ten years of work experience just to have the same standard of living. Does that make sense to you? Students are getting smart right now, and enrollments are dropping badly at schools that ask a lot of students to go $150k in debt for an MArch. If you are really dedicated, keep applying for a few years until you find a good school that will give you decent financial support -- more than half of them do. Pratt isn't a name that is worth more than most state schools too, so find yourself a state school you like, work at the Starbucks closest to campus, and learn the name and drink preference of every professor who gets their coffee there. After six months of getting my latte to me quick, I'll give you ten minutes on how to be competitive for scholarships.

I know I would SERIOUSLY consider all other routes before settling on that kind of debt.

What about:

state-schools?

Canada? Tuition for international graduate students is 24,000 CAD at UToronto and 16,000 CAD at McGill University. Ok, they're not  big-names in the Harvard or Princeton league, but for the money, you'd be hard pressed to find a better value NAAB accredited degree.

International? Sprichst du Deutsch? Ja... then go ahead and enjoy paying 600euro for a semester (or less, depending on the Bundesland).

While speaking German, French, Spanish, etc. is certainly a barrier to most, it's not impossible to pick up a language for the purposes of studying abroad. Just ask the hundreds of thousands of south and east asian (and plenty of other international) students currently studying in North America.

Student loans should not be an emotional decision. It's very easy to do the math to find out what your total loan will be, the interest on that loan, what your expected income will be, and how long it will take you to pay it off BEFORE you go back to grad school. It surprises me how often people come on here to confirm their decision on an emotional basis when all it takes is a calculator and a little bit of time.

Keep in mind tuition across the board is crazy high and it seems to be getting exponentially worse each year. Even good state schools like UCLA are costing in the upper 20s/year for out of state students, not the same as 5 years ago. Interest rates aren't too great right now either so timing is a factor.

Building, after doing the math, for someone who is completely independent (no mom and dad footing the bill), you will find that $150k is too much of a financial burden given today's interest rates and average income. My personal financial comfort threshold was around $75k. It went a little over, but it's manageable.  

It's simple.

What is your goal in architectural field?

Is it to become a star-architect? or Is it to become a good architectural practitioner?

To become a star-architect,

you would definitely need not to be burdened under enormous debts.

Tell me just one star architect who was not rich among star architects in 21C.

There is no star architects who was not rich.

Going an expensive school with enormous debt in order to be a star architect is non-sense.

It's just like every famous painter in these days was already rich before becoming famous.

Art industry has been corrupt by money since sometime in 20C.

If you have a dream to become a star, you have to find out your own way rather than the path that everyone come up with.

Going a famous school with enormous debt is definitely not a wise choice.

If it is extremely difficult to become a star with enormous debt, why do you even go to a "famous" private school?

This is the Capitalism society.

Money is the King in these day.

Ironically, to be free from money and from being a "slave", being free from debts is the first step.

Remember that dreaming something is not allowed to a slave...

In response to mespellwrong, 

I agree that it would be better to have 0 debt than 60k, and better to have 60k than 150K. The simple fact is that most students will have to take out a good deal of money to go to school now. At the same time I do not necessarily believe that students are getting wiser. By wiser, they are delaying school in hopes of getting a stronger financial package. We both mentioned that schools are getting more expensive at an extremely fast rate. A school that is $20,000 tuition now could be $30,000 in five years. Take interest into account and you could be paying nearly twice as much (especially if the loan is unmanageable and you have to defer). A lot of young architects will be 150,000, 200,00 ad beyond over the next five years.

Is it a bad idea? If you don't want to be an architect then yes it is. It's a terrible idea. This is not the healthcare industry.

On the other hand, we could get back on a boom cycle. Architects salaries for young employees could continue to rise, and you could be starting at 50K in four years. Society could continue to change drastically (like we have noticed in more recent years.) Educated people will feel comfortable waiting until 40 to settle down and have kids, allowing people a chance to save, and not feel as though they are sacrificing finances for family. 

In that case, A 27 Year old M.Arch graduate could probably pay of loans before 40. 

But that is all very hypothetical. 

Syp has an excellent point. If your goal is to be a "starchitect" as it probably overtly or secretly is to 99% of people, you can almost forget it with a massive debt load. Architecture does not seem like a career where you can get rich if you don't have money. A lot of us want to have time to experience are money and financial growth. Sure you may be a super sucessful architect with extreme debt out of school, but you won''t experience this financial turn until much later than everyone else. You could be 50 paying off loans.

This is a completely random question...but has anyone thought about buying silver as an architect. If the economy crashes the value should increase significantly, and will almost certainly stay the same. If times are good, well.....you will have a job. 

You know, I've heard more than a dozen tenured professors point out recently that universities are operating more and more like businesses.

At Pratt we've got 76 contingent faculty supporting four permanent faculty. Rumor has it that the average adjunct there is paid $78.47 per contact hour, about $3,500 a class. With students each paying $3,789 per course, the institution can be addressing overhead with a single enrollment, and they've got to be making a profit once four or five students are enrolled. at 12:1 they are either passing out a lot of aid, or making someone rich.

Sounds like a lot better of an idea than buying silver.

Look, I like Pratt, I took some classes there as a high school student. The guy I buy my cheese from at the farmers market has his degree from there, and he's a good guy. My sister-in-law got a library science degree from them, and she was very happy with the experience. I just don't think I'd mortgage my life on an MArch with that kind of institutional commitment.

I know  doctor who took on $149,000 in student loans to get through medical school. She makes north of $130,000 a year now, gets $50k from the Feds every four years in loan repayment, and is on a plan to be free of her student loan debt by the time she is 45. Her loan payments are bigger than her mortgage.

So let me address your query directly. You assume that over the five years it took for tuition to increase that you will be looking at the same schools and have the same chance at financial support. That will be true if you spend five years sitting on your sofa playing video games. if you do something in the years between, you ought to be able to find an education that costs less. If it took you two years to weasel your way into the local state school (1/3 of the same faculty as Pratt), you'd save yourself half of that loan, which by your numbers saves you at least seven years of repayment.

Not all schools are as screwy as this. the average ratio in the US is only 78% adjunct faculty, and I'm willing to bet that most of them are in medicine and business. Average costs, for that matter, are still below 36,000 a year.

Thanks for the input you all.  I'm still working things out.  I'm 90% sure that I am going to take a year off and re-apply.  I'm bummed about it for sure, but it just isn't prudent to do otherwise.

The state school direction is fine, but the only accredited M.Arch program in my state only accepts architecture undergrads (I live in a small state), so I am missing out on in-state tuition no matter where I go.  I will have to take out a good amount of loans no matter what without financial aid.  Realistically, even at a cheaper out-of-state school, it would be possible to end up 90k in debt just paying for tution with living expenses for 3 years if I don't manage my finances well and don't get decent summer pay, which is a scary thought.

What I wonder though, is how many people actually ARE taking out $100k+ in loans?  With the selection of schools I had, none offering financial aid, I would be $100k+ in debt anywhere I went.  I think there are quite a few students out there with that type of debt.  I know from talking with other accepted students, I wasn't the only one looking at taking out loans for everything, but I'd think that anyone with that much debt wouldn't be eager to let everyone know about it.

$23,492,485,394.83 is too much.

Read this:

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136214779/college-student-debt-grows-is-it-worth-it

Myself:

4 yr in-state university B.A in arch undergrad, $0 debt.  Then, 3 yr ivy legend university MArch I, $70,000 in debt.   I graduated in 2009, and there wasn't any jobs then.  My loans are all Federal, no private.  My payment is about 1000/month, for the next 10 years.  I worked for 3 years in between grad and undergrad, saved a lot of money knowing it will be expensive.  I know a lot of people personally that are 100K + in student loans, those guys are on the 30 year payment plan.  They will literally paid off their student loan the same time they retired.

Your total loan should not be more than your yearly salary at your 1st job after your degree. I would like to give you facts about the income of architects. The AIA compensation report list the salary of architects in relation to job experience, title and cities.  It's not a guess, but hard data.  

If you are going to take a year off, then you might want to think about moving to the state of the state university you want, so you can apply as a resident of that state later when you are ready for school.  The time you worked in between school, even if it's not architectural related will still give you a leg up later at the job market.

Best

Remember that you will become instate after the first year (if I recall correctly), so that higher tuition is only for the first year.  As 2by4 points out, you can also move to the state and get that instate tuition.  If you are taking a year off, then do that.

AIA - does their salary take into consideration all of those unemployed now?  If not, things like median salaries are mostly irrelevant at this point.  

Also, like most businesses, it is the middle folk that suffer the most, with the folks at the top keeping control and their positions (if still in business) and those at the bottom in endless supply.

So make sure you look at all the available numbers logically, "surveys" aren't as reliable as they were a few years ago (nor are many stats these days).

i'll cut and paste my post from a previous thread:

a very, very rough ballpark calculation:

$20k debt = $200/mo payment
$50k debt = $500/mo payment
$100k debt = $1000/mo payment

let's say you graduate from XXXX and take a typical $50k/yr architecture job:

$200/mo is annoying but manageable. you'll live slightly more frugally than your peers for a couple of years.

$500/mo is pretty tough, but probably manageable. you'll probably sacrifice 401k payments and buying a house for 5-10 years after you start working. you'll also constantly feel poor and it sucks.

$1000/mo is going to be insanely painful and maybe impossible. you will have a decent chance of default.

don't underestimate how bitter you'll be writing monthly student loan checks for 10-30 years!

I keep seeing this ballpark figure of 30-50k in debt...and i have no idea how anyone gets that number.

Just for quick reference I went to Maryland for my undergrad.  Looking at their grad program, costs for tuition of a non-resident in the year 2010-2011 it was approx $13500.  Do that over two years and you get $27k.  That's the low end of the ballpark just for tuition...for a two year program....at a modest school.  Try and factor in costs of living (DC metro area) and mandatory fees and you're immediately at the other end of that ballpark, unless you plan to work full time during your m.arch program.

My two roommates go to the Washington-Alexandria campus for Va Tech and both had to take out almost 40k just for the first year for living expenses and tuition.  Another friend went to Michigan this year and took 36k for the first year.  I'm going to be at USC in the fall and have a scholarship but I'm still destined to be 40k in the first year.  I had other choices but one for example, Temple, had a 35k price tag for the first year without a scholarship (tuition plus costs of living).  I don't see too many options to not go into debt unless you work full time or live with your parents.

I am just curious.. For those who scoff at 50K in loans? Have you been out of school for a while? That is rather average, especially from a private school. I agree that debt sucks. I too dream of the day that I have serious financial mobility. 

However, most people who have an M.Arch, or even a B.Arch for that matter will be well over 50K in debt if they are graduating in the next couple years. In fact I would say half of all people with an M. Arch will be in the neighborhood of 100K over the next five years or so.

Say what you will about going into that much debt, especially you people who graduted 10-15 years ago when 15K was a ball busting amount, but few students have that option today. I guess you could try and break into the field in a state where no degree is required (California), and work your 8 years to licensure. I mean that seems like the next best opportunity, and really $500.00/month payment is pretty normal now. 

I am not trying to be bitter, but this is really good news for people whose parents can pay for undergrad and masters. If you combine this with a reasonably strong work ethic you people are absolutely set. You have the ability to move from job to job varying on your interests and goals. You don't have to take some shitty job that doesn't interest you or help you gain necessary skills (that's always been the case), but now you have a much smaller pool to compete with ( compared with the latter half of the 20th century). I echo the sentiments above when I say the vast majority will be underlings and "slaves" not just due to lack of ability, but due to lack of funds.

I would agree with the general sentiment, do not take that much debt on.  Especially if you are single and do not have the advantage of a joint income, it will be a burden to pay that off. 

Trace mentioned "in-state" tuition.  This is NOT a guarantee.  I was a track three M.Arch like you (undergrad in something else, 3 year M.Arch) and I moved with my husband to attend my grad school at a state university.  The only reason I was granted in state tuition after a year was because the school recognized my husband as a resident of the state and since we are married they transferred it to me.  However, if you are single and moved to the state for the schooling, they will deny you the in-state tuition and the burden of proof is on you to prove that was not the case - which unfortunately for you was actually the reason you moved there.   Even if you are married, you have to go through a process of filing tax returns with the school and various other financial and identity proofs before they review and accept your application.  Moral:  Don't bank on in-state tuition if you are not currently living in that state before your application to the school. 

I guess talk to your school.  UCLA didn't have any problems with me, or others that moved there (that I know of).  It was really simple, though, nothing more than staying/working the summer.

Having a joint income would help the burden of debt, but it causes other problems if your partner feels like a debt was forced upon them against their will.

My fiancée will graduate with her M.Arch next year, and got out lucky with very little debt from an ivy, but next year when we have a joint income and I am reapplying to schools, I would only feel guilty forcing an extreme debt on her that she managed to avoid.

This isn't a marriage counseling forum, so I'll leave it at that, but I don't think it is a valid solution to the problem.

Just wanted to reassure you that youre making the right decision in not taking on that sort of debt. Having an accredited degree and becoming licensed is one thing; having the freedom to do what you want with the degree is another.

We can all complain that tuition is rising, but for some reason kids keep paying it. It is absurd for schools to imply that students can afford that sort of debt(in that they never explicitly state that they cannot). 100k over 25 years pays 200k+ overall, and 100k+ in interest alone; while this might be the norm, it does not mean it is right!

One of the best things about the US is ease of entrepeneurship. The biggest inhibitor is financial burden.

I hold a BSCE as well, and Im in the same boat as far as arch. school is concerned. Ive decided to take the time to attend a d/b school and learn more about means & methods before reapplying next year.

If youre fiancee is in architecture, Im sure she didnt agree to marry you because she thought youd be rich. She's probably happy with you chasing what youre passionate about, rather than seeing you settle for what youre not.

If its what you are in to, go do arch for humanity or engineers without borders while you can.

Now that I have time to really sit down and read this, I have to ask a question to those who posted above?

I don't mean to sound crass but it does seem slightly dillusional in this day and age to think that people can make it through seven years of school and not be close to $100,000.00 in debt.  Sallie Mae, and other companies altered their provisions once more to allow students to take out loans, and let interest accumulate in college. (This was banned shortly after the crash for two years I believe.) 

That said, what would you recommend to the following hypothetical student? He/She an average 40k in debt with an art degree. They just received a half scholarship, and some additional financial aid at an Ivy, but will still have to pay 15-20,000 year for three years while interest accumulates. Right now they work a job making $11.00/hour and are unable to save for the future because they are busy paying interest on loans/rent. 

 most people off of this board would think "My what a lovely opportunity." Mean while the people replying to this post would frown upon it. 

Now for those people who had school completely paid for, it's obvious the world is your oyster (in that respect.), but to me and most other people I think the above scenario is pretty decent. 

There are a lot of people who tell you to get work experience. It's one thing if you hate what your doing and get paid 60-80,000/year, but many people would likely see an increase in salary as an intern and hate what they are doing. In that case, the extra debt doesn't seem killer. 

I don't have 100K in loans, but I have a $450.00 payment/month and live in Washington D.C on a very modest salary.BTW for people who act like 40K/year out of school is rough, that is good money. Tighten up your belt, that's the average salary for young professionals in DC, and the NW is one of the most expensive places to live in the country.  For the above poster who said 20k in debt would make you feel poorer than your peers while making 50K out of school, that's rediculous. I hardly meet anyone who comes from a family below upper middle class these days, many still have loans in this range and those who have a job are just fine.

100K area can be killer, but not if you have a decent job and the economy is good. (not now of course). 100K doesn't become killer because of that amount, it gets real bad here because the interest crushes you. If you are not keeping a job as an architect, it can easily climb into a range that makes it very difficult to pay.

You could have your own studio (1300/month) in a decent part of northwest D.C. Make a 1,000/payment a month and have a small savings on 50K. This is just an example, if you were willing to live in a 3 bedroom with roommates, you could easily live on this. so again 50K and up can allow you to live a relatively normal life with a lot of loans. I have no clue why the hell you would default at this salary unless you were making frivolous decisions with your money.

I  DO NOT mean to advocate taking out extraneous loans, they do inhibit your ability to further take risks, and that sucks. Maybe you will have to pay off your shitty loans until your 50 before you can take any sort of risk. Luckily architects practice forever, and if someone is willing to continue to learn, maybe their opportunity will just come later. 

Having said all of that, I would just like to know what a "normal" person should do aspiring to be an architect because if debt truly is the devil, the only thing I can think of is work and work until you get a full ride, or get into a more lucrative career where loans aren't necessary until you make enough money to pay off debt and save for school. Most people who are "gaining" work experience  with their shitty liberal arts degree aren't saving shit, they are just maintaining. 

The average student loan debt right now is $27,000. You are still talking about four times that amount. So do you expect to earn four times the median income? That would be $180,000 a year. About 3% of people in the US make that much, and less than 5% of architects will do that well.

Your scenarios contradict one another. In one, you do so poorly in the admission process that you have to pay full price, but you are so successful that you will earn top dollar. In the other, someone is good enough to get a free ride, but they don't do well in practice?

Let us suppose you make 40,000 right now, and can afford your $450 a month payment. If you are an average student, you can hope to make $38,000 when you finish, but with an additional $1,200 a month payment. For three years of sleepless nights and abuse, you just cut your income in half, and you are five to eight years of experience from the 50k that affords you a studio. 55% of the college graduates in the last ten years defaulted on their loans because they figured only on the good times, as you are, and not on the three years that they would be out of work because of a recession. That $950 a month you are leaving yourself for food and savings won't last long, and it will last even less long once you have to pay most of it for your exams. You are budgeting the same amount for rent, food, and savings during architecture school. This is the real problem: students expect that going to school is like having a day job, and when it turns out to not be all praise, it becomes a day job that they work 10-4. Then they fail out, as half of architecture graduate students still do, and have the same debt load as if they had finished. I keep hearing the calls that schools have to reform themselves, but seriously, what do you all expect? I'm sorry your ivy league education didn't include

Why not go to a Canadian School? Toronto, UBC, McGill (and others) are all fine programs and will get you your accredited degree. Graduate and work a few years in Canada to get registered and pay off your much smaller student loans. Move back to the US and hang your shingle (if you even feel like returning).

I have a question: Why don't upper middle class parents invest in their children anymore? My baby nephew has a top of the line stroller, a designer nursery with all new furniture, and an entire department store of baby clothes in his closet. I'm surprised he doesn't have an i-phone. Does he have a college fund? No, mom and dad say he has to "make it on his own".

It is OK to invest in OUR kids' future, not just their toys! My family is very far from wealthy, yet my parents helped me manage and understand the debt/education ratio and we planned for success. I guess it is a value difference. I didn't have a swimming pool, or cable TV, or chikn nuggets everytime I cried for them. Thank God.

Check out this link: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=31

so thirty five percent of students can afford to skip financial aid entirely -- that means no loans, and no work study eligibility. But of the 65% who do take aid, the average total is only $19,800, compared to an average $27,000 in tuition and fees. That looks like an average family paying $14,300 out of pocket for tuition and fees each year.

I'm all for getting out with as little debt as possible, but I don't see how you can make it out of a 35 yr program under 60k. I live in Texas and with in state tuition it will cost me just over 10k a year in tuition for the 3.5yr program. Factor in 3.5 yrs of living expenses with rent, gas, food, insurance, utilities and you will need at least around 1000 a month if you are living frugal and in a cheap dive of an apt.

@Building: i know it must have been a tough choice, but you made the right one.  taking on $150k in debt is a life-altering decision.

just curious - to those scoffing at $50k+ debt, how many of you are actual working post-grad architects?

Buff03, budget $1000/month for living expenses. You will need to cover about 8 months of living expenses per academic year. You work/intern the other four months. If you make $1,500/month over those four months, at the end of the summer, you can put $2,000 of that towards your next year's living expenses. Bottom line: that's only $6,000/year in financial aid for living expenses. (I would also be saving now before you enroll to reduce that further.)

While in school, do everything you can to reduce your living expenses. Find roommates (boy, do I miss the days of $400/month rent!). Don't go out to the bar every weekend. Forget about making that $200 basswood model. It can be done; you just have to be diligent and deliberate about how you are spending money.

Thats what I'm saying. Its very hard even with your projections of making 1500 a month woring in the summer and then putting back in 2k for your living expenses that is still around 18-20k for 3.5 yrs of living expenses. The state schools here range from $32,222.40 - $41,867.00 for the 3.5yrs so add those living expenses on top of the tuition and you are between 50-60k to do a 3.5 yr program at an in state school living frugal. I'm just saying if you want to get the degree you are still going to have to invest a big chunk (50-60k) even if you don't go to a private school and live beyond your means. 

Thats what I'm saying. Its very hard even with your projections of making 1500 a month woring in the summer and then putting back in 2k for your living expenses that is still around 18-20k for 3.5 yrs of living expenses. The state schools here range from $32,222.40 - $41,867.00 for the 3.5yrs so add those living expenses on top of the tuition and you are between 50-60k to do a 3.5 yr program at an in state school living frugal. I'm just saying if you want to get the degree you are still going to have to invest a big chunk (50-60k) even if you don't go to a private school and live beyond your means. 

Understood, Buff03, but there is a big difference between $80K in debt not working versus $50K working. Furthermore the $50K scenario is a maximum that assumes you have zero savings before you start grad school. If you've taken a few years between undergrad and grad school to work, you should have saved an additional $10-20K that can be applied towards expenses.

I'm not an extremist who believes that you shouldn't take on any debt. I just think you have to carefully plan your expenses to avoid debt as much as is reasonable. With good planning, I don't see any reason to borrow $80-100K, let alone more. I wish someone would have clued me into this before I started grad school.

I wouldn't scoff at 50 or 60k of debt, total. If I wasn't married, I probably would have been close to that by the time I was done. The other thing that helped for me was a really good part time job that brought in about 12k a year. But I took my advice and waited until I got well funded and had the kind of professional experience and network that could support me through school. I did spend close to 5k a year on supplies, including four or five of those $500 basswood models, and I still think that was a good idea, an know that it had a positive impact on my current employment.

OH MAN!

Here we go again.

You won't have any problem paying back the $150k.

As long as you get a job in a civil engineering position.

I think $50 is about the max you would want to borrow.  I owed $32 when I graduated with my M.Arch and I pay about $350/month on a 10 yr plan.  There is no way I want to be paying this thing off over 30 yrs.  You would still be paying on it when your kids are in college.  Think about that.  It would seriously alter your standard of living for a long time.  I went to an ivy league school for a year and then transferred to a state school to finish.  Not easy to do (most schools won't accept transfers) so you might just want to start at a state school.

This thread might have saved my life (or at least my soul)

Let's remember that about 10% of the income bracket doesn't qualify for the federal work-study.

I didn't qualify and I had to find my own job.

Question:

I just graduated from UM's Taubman school of Architecture with my B.S.  I will have around 25k in debt from this.

In the future, I am considering two possibilities:

1) Apply for Berkeley, with the intent to do an M. Arch and the M.S in structural engineering.  It would take around 3.5 years, and cost around 60k. 

2) Wait a year and try to find a job in California so that I gain residency.  Then, do as above, but pay around 45-50k.

Would you guys consider the 60k in debt worth it so as to start a year earlier?

i would take 1-2 years and work. it will help you financially, and is better than jumping straight back into school, anyways.

to play it safe, i'd apply to berkeley, and if you don't find a job, go for it. if you do find a job worth learning at--then just defer your acceptance.

Those numbers seem a bit low for UCB, even if you were only considering tuition cost, unless you're factoring some kind of savings or something. Either way I'd agree with what jk3hl suggested.

Building, here's how it goes: I graduated 2009 with 75k in debt. Unemployed for a year and a half, deferred loans. Now, 2 years later, I am making income contingent repayments of 200/month. The balance is now 90k. The interest adds on so quickly, you can't imagine. The M.Arch degree is not worth the debt - trust me. With salaries as low as 40,50k a year, the loans will become a nightmare - you won't be able to sleep at night with 150k in debt. Listen to those older and wiser. I, too had wish someone told me this beforehand.

I think all of this loan talk just depends on your particular situation.  I happen to be married and my husband is also in grad school (for electrical engineering, so yes, he will make much more than we could ever imagine as architects...)  I will be taking on around 90k in the end unless I get additional scholarships or a TA position in my last two years.  So I think your future/current spouse is something to consider, as well as how marketable you can make yourself.  Yes some people are having a hard time finding jobs that pay well, but that doesn't have to be your situation if you play your cards right.

I suggest working and paying off the existing loan.  Federal loans only cover 18-20k per year Pell grants will probably end this year so you will need private loans. Paying off the first loan will help your credit score and help you lock in a lower interest rate.  Any cash you can save before going to school will be a huge benefit.  As things are going now I would not count on any jobs after graduation just don’t factor that in since it is mostly beyond your control and like the housing market we have lots of inventory to clear out.

The most important thing above tuition and any other factor is placement, if the school has a high placement rate then it is the better choice.

Another thing to do while you are in educational limbo is to take courses at community colleges so you can learn the software and take out general education credits if they transfer most schools charge you per credit hour and 12 may be full time but the program needs 17 each semester, reducing the courses you need to take will help.

Finally ask if you can attend part time and work. This also can save you tons in interest if you can live within the means your part time wages allow. But if each year is a net loss go full time and finish up as fast as you can, take summer school or seek out programs that fast track like Southern Illinois University Carbondale, there are other but that is the one I remember right now.

The problem people deal with is the interest. If you needed to take out $150,000 in loans that didn't have interest, and really wanted to be an architect, I would say you made a fairly sound decision. Given that the economy will almost certainly be strong for architects between now and the next 25 years you would almost certainly have several prosperous years that would make up for that. (Assuming you are late 20's or 30's.) The reality is that if you don't have someone helping you attack interest, you end up paying 750.00/month not making enough money to cut into your loans, and not taking the job you want. This makes it harder to get off the ground during pivotal years (late 20's and and 30's.) As they saying goes you need money to make money, and because all your extra capital is going just to pay on interest, it sort of fucks you. However, if you are in a relationship where the other partner has a secure job and you can attack it together, than this becomes less of a burden. Not to generalize, but even if you don't have kids, you probably need a combined income with partner of 6 figures to really take on this debt and be able to invest in things that will allow you to have a more profitable future. You need to be able to chip in 1500/month on this type of loan early, and it would be best to be able to throw down $3,000/month allowing you to pay it off in 5-7 years. This is assuming you have fairly standard interest rates and not those well into double digits like private companies are giving out.