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Jul 6 '07 45 Last Comment
Nam HendersonNam Henderson
Jul 6, 07 2:24 pm

For context,
http://archinect.com/news/article.php?id=60589_0_24_0_C


Who on archinect doesn't believe that...

"although we (as humans) may not understand fully, the global climate cycles, including recent heating, we are at some level greatly increasing the speed of flux within the overall climate global. And as we all know un-predictability is bad for business and people."

Yes, no??

Am i simply delusioned>>>?

 

snooker
Jul 6, 07 3:42 pm

nam

Being a trailer house owner (white trash) , I think we might just be way ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to addapting to global warming, cause we can hook up and go to were there is higher ground and a more moderate climate. The rest of you poor B's, with land grounded houses are stuck with where you are. Suffer in the heat and the high water table while the likes of our kind flourish, cause we never sent our kids to get educated in them commie universities....

your truely

Bubba

bowling_ball
Jul 6, 07 3:46 pm

You started making sense there for a minute, snooker.

In the past 8 years, I haven't lived at one place more than 2. I'm starting to feel very nomadic. The other day I even considered buying a cube van, parking it, and setting up a woodshop in the back of my new apartment building.

vado retro
Jul 6, 07 3:50 pm

i always liked trailers.

Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 6, 07 3:58 pm

At this point I don’t really think it is even worth debating Global Warming anymore. If you don’t believe it, good for you, we applaud your steadfastness, now go home and let the rest of us get to work on the technologies, systems, and designs of the new greener world.

lletdownl
Jul 6, 07 4:07 pm

hahaha quilian, good point... seems as if those that still dont buy global warming are doing it out of spite just to piss the rest of us off

snooker
Jul 6, 07 4:15 pm

QR....your just to serious....

Anyone see the article in the New York Times Magazine about the NASA Inventor's Project.

I believe it will take the garage inventor to work our way out of the mess we are in. Like Garage Bands, they are the future of music and inventions.

punky_brewster
Jul 7, 07 5:08 pm

how can you agree with a gross generalization?

the earth has an amazing way of balancing itself. it's warming because it needs to, it will cool when it needs to. it's done this for millions and millions of years before humans crawled up out of the primordial ooze. i'm not saying we shouldn't live clean, zero carbon,etc. i'm just saying the earth is not a baby, and it can clean itself if the need arises, it just works on a different timetable then humans. and the amazing arrogance that people have when they talk about 'fixing' the environment makes me chuckle, since most people have a hard time fixing their own breakfast.
so, count this view as a 'no'.

FRaC
Jul 7, 07 5:23 pm

all i know is, the planet has a fever. if your baby has a fever, you go to the doctor. if the doctor says you need to intervene here, you don’t say, 'well, i read a science fiction novel that tells me it’s not a problem.'.

look, if the crib’s on fire, you don’t speculate that the baby is flame retardant. You take action.

bowling_ball
Jul 7, 07 7:26 pm

The problem, FRaC, is that not only is that a horrible analogy, but the truth of the matter is that we simply don't know. We don't.

Ok. We can measure that earth's temperature is changing. It's probably getting warmer (and cooler in some areas, even). This has happened before, many times. It's gotten cooler in the past as well.

As punky_brewster points out, this is a gross generalization. There's also money to be made in doomsday apocalypse scenarios, wherever they may come from.

Now, don't get me wrong. I shut out the lights when I'm not in a room. I drive a very fuel-efficient car when I need to do so (normally I walk or bike everywhere). I compost and recycle. To give you an idea of how much garbage my girlfriend and I produce in a week (at home) together, it can all fit in a single white plastic grocery bag. That's the rule rather than the exception. I know what it means to be 'green.'

My girlfriend, so it turns out, is an environmental studies/science student. When I met her, I'd describe her as more hippy than anything. Vegetarian (vegan for a while) for about 10 years now. Has never owned a car. But she's also learned that we simply don't know everything about the way the environment works. What we do know is that "global climate change" is an ongoing process that started at the Big Bang, and will continue uninterrupted until our planet dies. Yes, we can and probably do have some effect, at least to a small degree, and temporarily. But we are not the CAUSE of "global climate change," and neither can we ever stop it. It's a natural process, and one reason why I cringe when I hear that term, along with "global warming." I'm not advocating pumping tons of greenhouses gases into the atmosphere, but without greenhouse gases, life on this planet would be uninhabitable.

Contrary to popular belief, the jury on this issue is not "out." I want to keep our water, air and soil pure much more than the large majority of people on this planet. I've worked for environmental and social causes for over 10 years now. But science, by definition, can not and should not decide on a verdict on this issue. Once that's been decided, the blinders go on, and as we're seeing happening already with this popular cause, it becomes impossible to keep our minds open. Along these lines, G8 countries are now being pressured to "tackle" this problem, which means pulling money away from the fight against AIDS in Africa. And seeing how well that's worked, I don't exactly trust that the condition of our natural environment is going to improve anytime soon.

By and large, as designers of the built environment, we are much more a part of the problem, than the solution.

Sorry for the rant. Keep your minds open, for all of us!

FRaC
Jul 7, 07 9:12 pm

but al gore told me this is a moral imperative. and he said the debate is over - there is scientific consensus that we cause global warming.

he also told me to sign this pledge where i promise to be carbon neutral.

then he told me how i can purchase carbon offsets so i can be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

it's great that he has taught me all these things, like that flame retardant baby thing - who knew?

Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 7, 07 10:11 pm

Two things:

1 if you believe that...
-paving so much land that some places that see lots of rainfall (like Florida) now are experiencing droughts
-global deforestation at alarming rates
-human-produced CO2 emissions that this planet has seen only in extreme cases and only a few times in its history
...have absolutely no affect on the ecosystems at all scales, i applaud you as you seem to think at much higher abstract levels than I am capable of. As for the rest of us dumbasses that see A, experience B, and cannot do anything but connect the two dots, let us be free to work to come up with the innovations that will allow us to reduce our footprint and live a cleaner life. All we ask you is to not trip us as we move forward.

2
Not all climate change and environmental debates need to center around the personality, lifestyle, and family of an ex vice president. I am amazed at how Fox news and talk radio can make issues magically center around the flaws of a few individuals that spouse them.

Erin WilliamsErin Williams
Jul 7, 07 10:58 pm

Thank you Quilian, for bringing up point #2. I am so tired of the ad hominem attacks that are spouted whenever the issue comes up. Al Gore is not perfect. He may not even be great. But on the other hand, I think the overall message is an important one, and attacks on the messenger (who is not the only messenger, only the most visible one) only muddy the issue.

FRaC
Jul 8, 07 12:30 am

listen, as a child i danced like it was 1999. my dreams were wild that the promise of this new world would be mine.

but now i am throwing off the carelessness of youth - to listen to an inconvenient truth.

i feel that i need to move and i need to wake up. i need to change and i need to shake up. i need to speak out because something's got to break up. i've been asleep and i just need to wake up.

i am not an island!
i am not alone!
i am my intentions - trapped here in this flesh and bone!

mightylittle™
Jul 8, 07 2:10 am

Wow, FRaC...Poignant!

FRaC
Jul 8, 07 3:06 am

hey you, don't you give up, it's not so bad.
there's still a chance for us!
hey you, just be yourself, don't be so shy
there's reasons why it's hard!

keep it together, you'll make it alright
our celebration is going on tonight
poets and prophets would envy what we do
this could be good, hey you

hey you, open your heart, it's not so strange
you've got to change this time!
hey you, remember this, none of it's real
including the way you feel!

keep it together, you'll make it alright
our celebration is going on tonight
poets and prophets would envy what we do
this could be good, hey you

Becker
Jul 8, 07 7:07 am

i like the planet has a fever idea. nothing like a nice cup of honey/lemon tea and a few sleep-ins

Steven WardSteven Ward
Jul 8, 07 7:46 am

has melissa etheridge been posted on archinect before? this may be an historic event.

vado retro
Jul 8, 07 7:54 am

its seems to me that the people who are most vocal about the dangers of global warming are always flying around the world in jet planes. i m not just talking about celebrity has been rock stars either.

Steven WardSteven Ward
Jul 8, 07 8:00 am

how else are you going to talk to a lot of people that are far away? oh wait.....

vado retro
Jul 8, 07 8:27 am

steven i'll be on the next flight to louisville and explain it to ya. they do they have a hummer rental place down there don't they?

snooker
Jul 8, 07 1:33 pm

It is depressing looking at New Cars.....sticker shock .....and always the thought in the back of my mind.....will we still be using gasoline in ten years.....cause that is how often I buy a car.....maybe it is time to buy a used one instood....just so I don't throw away so much money.

Apurimac
Jul 8, 07 11:17 pm
"human-produced CO2 emissions that this planet has seen only in extreme cases and only a few times in its history.

I am at work right now so I don't have the time to directly research the stats, but keep in mind when the dinosaurs were running around there was enough CO2 in the athmoshere to turn Antartcia into a swamp, there were hardly, if any ice caps and shallow seas covered most of the planet. The ice core data is conveinent for the Global warming doomsayers to throw out there because, suprise, it only reaches as far back as the last ice age (about 100,000 years ago, when the area we now call New York City was covered in over a mile of ice.) Guess what, its gotten warmer since then! What a huge suprise! I agree with slant, we should try to do our part to slow the crazy train but stopping it frankly is another megalomanical human attempt to control nature which in only end in our extinction.

toroid
Jul 9, 07 10:04 am
Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 9, 07 10:15 am

Apu, Slant we are in agreement over working to move forward.

Apu, CO2 in the atmosphere over the last 450,000 years:


http://www.architecture2030.org/current_situation/current2.html

Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 9, 07 10:24 am

Also..
Comparing models comparing models with man-made CO2 vs. natural CO2 ONLY. Incredible how when you include human-caused emissions of CO2 it matches the ACTUAL climate change...


http://www.architecture2030.org/current_situation/co2_temp.html

vado retro
Jul 9, 07 11:34 am
A Center for Ants?
Jul 9, 07 9:38 pm

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ]
Watch this as well.[/url]

interesting argument that's somewhat a game theory analysis of possible scenarios. all regardless of whether or not human influenced global climate change is valid or not.

A Center for Ants?
Jul 9, 07 9:39 pm
Apurimac
Jul 9, 07 10:29 pm

Q, as a fan of science, i present you this:



Seems we're coming out of a cold spell if you ask me, and like I said the CO2 data is gathered from ice cores, which don't go back far enough to gauge climate change in the context of the planet's entire history. If we were in a peak warm phase getting warmer then I'd be really worried about global warming. The planet is fine, out little civilization however, is gonna have a real test pretty soon here when the sea levels change. I do agree we need to do our part to slow it down and give us and other species time to adapt by minimizing our CO2 impact but really this could all just be the planet shaking off its winter clothes.

c.k.
Jul 9, 07 10:48 pm

cows are responsible for 18% of greenhouse-gas emissions

bowling_ball
Jul 9, 07 11:14 pm

It was reported in the news today that scientists have discovered DNA on Greenland that dates back 500,000 years IIRC. These include plant and animal DNA, meaning that Greenland was actually GREEN at the time. And now it's not. It was much warmer there at that time.... scientists are saying the climate was similar to modern-day Sweden, for comparison's sake.

Warm cold warm cold warm cold warm.....?

Mirin
Jul 10, 07 7:57 pm

why is an interest in green/ecological approach usually interpreted as merely a response to a trend or catastrophe instead of a preemptive step in favor of a larger ecology? the tone of this debate sometimes seems to me as if environmental awareness is to be taken seriously only when a problem is imminent.

there is an article in the nytimes about an attitude prevalent in europe and green building/technology pretty much sums up my bafflement when it comes to the USA...but then again i think most tones of debates that take place in the US tend to baffle me..






Mirin
Jul 10, 07 7:59 pm

yes see.. ..warm, cold, warm, cold, warm cold,


tht's exactly what i'm talking about

renmonk
Jul 10, 07 11:18 pm

The issue is not warm, cold, warm, cold, it's the RATE at which warm, cold, warm, cold happens. This particular warm cycle just happened too damn fast to be able to attribute it to natural causes...I think both of Quilian's graphs speak for themselves.

At any rate, no the earth will not explode in a massive fireball, and sure it'll recuperate from whatever we do to it. The problem is not "saving the earth", it's "saving the earth as a place were the human species can survive and not get fried".

bowling_ball
Jul 11, 07 1:38 am

No doubt we're doing the planet a great disservice.

Most (many) of us don't remember the scare in the 70's (whether real or not) about the 'impending ice age.' In the late 80's it was acid rain. Today it's global warming.

I was visiting my father at work on the weekend, and I saw a sign he had up on the wall of his workshop - something to the effect of 'I consider myself an active environmentalist, not an environmental activist.' It was distributed by a farmers' group, if I recall correctly.

I think we owe it to ourselves, whatever 'side' we're on, including shades of grey like myself, to at least educate ourselves. Quite a bit of Al Gore's impressive graphs were simply backward, as explained by prominent environmentalists themselves. Education!

In the end, we all have to find that point of balance. Nobody here's going to go without electricity or gasoline or natural gas voluntarily. We are all hypocrites in that way - wanting to save the world but doing essentially nothing to help. Great, you recycle! Right. (This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's meant for ALL of us.)

Lastly, I heard this from my girlfriend (as mentioned, an environmental science student), and I liked it a lot. She explained that among the First Nations people in our area, they have an old saying that one should live their life while always thinking seven generations into the future.

Seven generations! That's the kind of effort we need.

Steven WardSteven Ward
Jul 11, 07 7:29 am

i try to just think of my kids. allows me to be environmentally cognizant in a purely selfish way (which is what it's gonna take for people to buy in, honestly).

i've heard the seven generations thing, but the rate of societal change now makes even attempting to look past 20yrs almost seem as irresponsible as living in the moment. the native tribes before colonization knew that, for the most part, their way of life wouldn't change dramatically over the course of a lifetime. no longer true.

what organization was it that announced yesterday that the oil shortage starts in 10yrs?

Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 11, 07 8:23 am

International Energy Agency and it is in 4 years... They predicted we would get to this point 5 years ago and no one seems to be doing anything serious about it.
http://archinect.com/news/article.php?id=60794_0_24_0_C

Quilian RianoQuilian Riano
Jul 11, 07 8:45 am

while we have the privilege to argue about it, other people are feeling the real consequences:
http://archinect.com/news/article.php?id=60840_0_24_0_C

bowling_ball
Jul 11, 07 2:05 pm

"environmentally cognizant in a purely selfish way (which is what it's gonna take for people to buy in, honestly)"

You hit the nail on the head, Steven. People are selfish.

I've heard that one of Japan's biggest industrial firms has a 250-year business plan (or something crazy like that, it's been a while). Most western businesses have 5 year or 10 year plans. I don't think the company I work for even has a plan for the weekend.

Erin WilliamsErin Williams
Jul 11, 07 2:21 pm

slantsix, I think the attitude should be "Great, you recycle! Right. What's next?" Start with recycling. Then move on to unplugging things not in use, or buying locally grown foods, or reducing your time in a single-occupancy vehicle. At this point, I think we all need to be in the midst of actively trying to make a change in our lives, whichever change that may be, it will help. As soon as you've grown comfortable with a conservation-minded behaviour, try to start doing something else as well. I'm comfy with biking now, so I'm starting to try to remember to turn things off more. I bet that everybody could pick SOME sort of change in behaviour that seems doable to them, and it would help. No, we're not perfect, but we could be better.




I wonder sometimes, whether the environmental efforts that are starting to snoball here are going to someday be remembered the way history remembers conservation efforts during WWII, or whether they'll fail. Where did that spirit go? That idea, that culture, seems so far away now, but it's what we need.

bowling_ball
Jul 11, 07 3:47 pm

I think your sarcasm detector is broken, but I appreciate the sentiment of your post.

What I was saying that I people THINK they're doing their part by putting out a recycling bin every week, when of course, that's just the beginning. Unfortunately, these same people don't often think about other ways they can help, unless, as posted by Steven, it directly benefits them.

In other words, money as incentive. Compact fluorescents are ONLY gaining popularity because they've been shown to cost less over their lifetime. People either ignore or don't care to know that there's mercury in the bulbs, or that major factory retrofits (or even new factories have to be built) need to happen to manufacture the CFL bulbs in the first place.

Just as example, I mean.

freq_arch
Jul 11, 07 3:57 pm

The earth will not miss us.

We might, though.

Erin WilliamsErin Williams
Jul 11, 07 4:23 pm

slantsix, sarcasm detector is fully operational. I was saying that I agree completely- people have to move on from the habits they're already comfortable with (such as recycling) and push themselves to do more.

bowling_ball
Jul 11, 07 5:00 pm

I suppose that means that my Sarcasm Detector Detector needs calibration.

Anyone got a tuning fork?

compassandpencilandruler
Jul 16, 07 1:39 am

Nature, is unpredictable.It cannot be shrink-wrapped dehydrated and delivered to your door just as and when you want it like a lukewarm pizza.Is Nature bad for business?It was,possibly for the Dinosaurs..lol..

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