At least that Dick is not me.

It's not a "business first, shelter later" kind of a thing for most architects on the right, and that characterization is part of the problem of toxic polarization flooding our society right now.

It may not be for republican architects. It seems that way for the republican party though.

There are at least three different "Republican parties" right now depending on how you count it (sort of like how the democrats are also fractured in multiple warring factions), so you'll have to be more specific about which one you're talking about. If it's Mitch McConnell NeoCon establishment GOP, then yes, that's a fair description of where they tend to fall on these things: money over everything. For the others, it would be a big mistake to assume that applies.

What are the other two? Honest question because I can't turn what I'm seeing into a coherent ideology. 

The other two are the christo-fascists and the maga minions.

While the profession undeniably leans left, I don’t think most architects are practicing in a way that is any indicator of their politics, including those who are on the right.

gwharton, I had a boss whose mantra was “First, get the job. Most importantly, GET THE JOB” which I agree with? But I also don’t. Most important is to do good work in the world, “shelter” means not just physical protection and safety but also sheltering their dreams and hopes and families and ability to feel a part of society. I think there is a good percentage of architects who have lost touch with the goal of housing dreams because our profession kills optimism, frequently. And once that connection to human dignity gets pummeled often and fiercely enough the initial step of getting the job steps in to fill the void.

Donna, I don't disagree with that. But it doesn't have anything to do with politics.

How do you define "majority" though? Politically? Economically? Sexuality, Gender, Race, Religion?

Republicans in office would argue that they're fighting for the "majority" on issues like transgender rights (where trans people are the minority).

Democrats argue that they're fighting for the "majority" on issues of income (where the middle-and-lower class constitutes the majority), while also giving sympathy points and nothing else to various layers of struggle faced by racial, ethnic, and gender minorities within those groups.

Idk, I don't like a future in which the country is largely ruled by majority opinion, considering majority opinion (in terms of majority money, majority power, majority cisgender identity, etc.) directly results in harm to those in the minority. Democracy as a system is flawed from the start in this way.

The majority view / opinion depending on the subject. IE - if the vast majority of the people want to allow abortions then they should be allowed. The country is currently ruled by minority opinions that have the loudest / most expensive voice.

Personally I'd rather not see a second civil war, considering the death toll of the first one. The pledge of allegiance has always been a weird fascistic thing to me... I don't owe allegiance to the country I was born on, any more than I owe my ancestors for having had sex generations ago. Accelerationism is a weird thought process in my book, because while I don't care for the existence of the State, I really am not rooting for the social harm that follows its collapse. I do like that De Graaf talks about how intertwined capital is with governance, which, to me, adds evidence that the entire system is (and has been for a long time) broken: the "bad" (Republican) capitalist policies won't be fixed with "good" capitalist (Democrat) policies. The whole thing is a farce at the expense of everyone outside of the upper crust.

For the majority of the world, the US imploding in on itself is not a great outcome… Even if you ignore the harm of that process, it’s real optimistic to think that it would wash away the issues and something better would somehow rise from the ashes.

I could be entirely misunderstanding h0wl's statement, but accelerationism is usually a position held by anti-civ anarchists, where the goal is to accelerate the dismantling of states in their entirety. For an accelerationist, collapse of the USA would be understood fully within the context of collapse of other states as well. It's actually a really nuanced position, supposing that the non-existence of States is better for both the freedom and equity of humankind, as well as better for the ecological health of the planet outside of humans.

I don't know if any of that is what h0wl actually thinks, but what I will say is that democracy as a system, regardless of political party, is something I personally see as bad. As a trans person, my existence shouldn't be held up to a vote (regardless of who votes).

I have far too little faith in the goodness of people to think that a system with too consolidated of power, or a “system” with too distributed of power could ever have positive results.

The way I look at it... if people are inherently corruptible, why would you want them dictating how you live your life? And if people are inherently good to each other, why would you need them dictating each other's lives?

No one is strictly one or the other though.

Trump would result in systematic execution of all the citizens of the United States because once he is absolute dictator, he doesn't need any of us. h0wl, the issue is Trump means we literally will die because we are his threat. Especially if we aren't devoted to him we will be killed first. Plain and simple as that. Hitler but 1000x worse. A civil war would easily cost 10s of millions of lives in America. H0wl, a country is not the government. It is the people.... us. It's not systems you are destroying. It is killing of people that would be caused. Biden did not do a international crime of blatantly separating children from their parents that came here for asylum and put them is what is blatantly a concentration camp with illegal treatement of children. CHILD TRAFFICKING them across the U.S. Biden didn't try to deprive you of YOUR collective vote which includes your individual vote that determines the electorial votes because in many states, it is the popular vote of a state wins the electoral votes for that state. The actual so-called "electors" are symbolic and they don't get to choose who to vote for. The vote doesn't even need actual people to be electors. The vote is determined in most states by the people's votes in that state. If DJT wins the popular vote in Texas, he gets the electoral votes of Texas (however many that state gets). JB wins California, he gets California's electoral votes. This is how it is currently in most states under state constitutions. Right now, we need to destroy MAGA, preserve democracy that we have and then work towards a better future. Biden gives us time to do that. He isn't seeking to be a dictator. Trump is. Biden is more conventional politician which is normalcy and boring but we have democracy. Donald Trump seeks to destroy the U.S. entirely and will kill off everyone who isn't MAGA first then kill is MAGA followers off except his most closest allies and then have them kill themselves. Why? Get rid off all threats to his power. However, he will likely do so in phases aiming at getting rid of highest threats with priority. Do you want to die?

How do you manage to write so much, and say so little?

How's this, Donald Trump after becoming a dictator is GOING to literally kill you through his wacky fucking goons because you do not represent the mold of the perfect heterosexual white male (fourth fucking reich). Trump doesn't care about your sexual orientation but he does want the entire real estate of the United States to make golf courses and money off it. You would be a liability to be disposed of than an asset. Donald Trump wants money, power, and possessions. You are in the way of at least one of the three at the very least. 

Once a dicktator, he doesn't need you, and the one thing all dictators need to do to remain in power, quash all threats and future threats to that power from within. All that is left are external threats.... then it is to get rid of the external threats. Donald Trump isn't going to make the economy better. He didn't do anything other than do some signing and use it as a photo-op session. The rest of the time, he literally spent doing campaigning, lying, and twitting & lying while twitting on twitter, and conspiring how to subvert the Constitution-mandated checks and balance. He did it to cause several civil actions to have to undergo deference until after January 2021. He did it for selfish reasons. He done NOTHING to benefit the people of the United States unless he had to for political reasons like he did to bribe the public to vote for him. He never done anything for the American people with any care for them. 

How can someone who doesn't care for his wife and children or any one else care for the people he has never met? 

He has no compassion. He has no feelings for people. The only person he loves is himself. The things he love is money, possessions, and power. They pegged Trump right when they came up with the alternate 1985 Biff Tannen in Back to the Future II. They based it on Trump. He was known to be corrupt then. 

Why would you endanger your friends, your family, your loved ones by making Donald Trump a dicktator. (Yes, that was purposefully misspelled). 2024 is about democracy versus Dicktatorship. There are only two political parties whose candidates can ever get the electoral votes to the white house. Even if there was a popular third party. What happens is no one gets the electoral votes needed to be President and then it is decided by the House of Representatives. Given it is MAGA controlled, it would be that candidate they want. Do you really want that to happen? 

We need to amend the Constitution in such a manner so that would never happen like whoever gets the most electoral votes wins not necessarily whoever gets 51%. Democracy needs one candidate who stands behind democracy to win that 51% of the total electoral votes. If no one gets it, Trump will be installed as dictator, effectively. This is because the House of Representatives decides in that situation. If Trump is the Republican party candidate, Nikki Haley won't get any electoral votes because she would not win any state. 

You live in a state where it probably makes no sense for you to vote at all because the majority is MAGA republicans like wannabe "Trump" dickhead governor of your state. I can understand your position in that context. Whether you vote or not, the outcome is Trump gets your state's electoral votes. It's a given, just about. In my state and a lot of others, it is safe to say Biden is likely to win. Almost a given because Oregon although leans blue strongly most of the time can swing even though it isn't common to swing Republican. The states that matters is the states that have a history of flipping back and forth between voting for a Democrat or Republican in the past 75 years. These swing / battleground states with a pattern and likelihood to swing either way are where the votes matters most of all to determine the electoral vote. Now, states although seldom swings, but voting population is close to even between Republican and Democrat are also important. If Florida's party demographics are close to even and close enough with also independents and misc. other parties, to vote a democrat instead of MAGA Republican for President, it might be a potential swing state. Florida has been an important state in a presidential race just 24 years ago. 

We don't have an ideal candidate for our ideal future yet in the two major parties. We have only one candidate that is more closer to our ideal candidate that has a chance in winning the election and that is Joe Biden. 

We need to keep Trump out of office, period. In 2028, we'll have another candidate for the Democrat party and we'll see what that would look like when it comes to that. We need to keep Trump out of office so that Trump can A) be prosecuted for his crimes and go to prison and eventually go to ADX Florence, and B) preserve the democracy we do have long enough for the next person after biden and to continue to work to break down MAGA cult. It is a war we are in. Maybe not a bloody war, hopefully remain that way, and hopefully, the MAGA cultists realize they been had by a scoundrel and hopefully they change from their ways back to sanity. When that time comes that they see they been blindly following a loser that is a danger to all, we are compassionate to them recoverying from this dark time in their life, get over the guilt of supporting insurrectionists. Show compassion and welcome them with grace, though. They are family, friends, etc. I just won't back a man who outright tried to violate the peaceful transfer of power and incite an attack against the Capitol of the United States to remain in power and deny the lawfully elected President from becoming the President who then outright STOLE government documents and intentionally refused to return it. It wasn't just an accident. It was all intentional and we can see it. Biden responded appropriately to the government documents in his possession. He proactively took steps to return them as soon he was aware of them. In any case, it was serious but he didn't attempt to be in the way of investigation and did the right thing. Donald flat-out obstructed justice. So, yes, it is an issue but even more serious in Donald's case. I think Donald deserves criminal convictions for his crimes before and during his time in office. Namely, his crimes before he was in office and certainly his insurrectionist crimes and those while in office before the 2020 election. His crime regarding the government documents, I would say yes to him deserving being convicted of it. He committed the crimes. He intentionally obstructed. It isn't so much about him being in possession of it, initially. It was how he acted once NARA began requesting their return and how he was obstructing and then the more serious legal steps. He could have avoided prosecution has he been more open about returning the documents that belonged to the government. He was downright criminal about it so, yeah. 

It isn't the number of years as much as what he did since being aware of them and his obstruction. The reason Biden might have been in possession of government documents during the 4 years of Trump's administration and about 1-2 years afterwards was partly Donald Trump's fault in appointing incompetent people to run the National Archive. Otherwise, it would have been returned sooner had it been ran by competent individuals. 

A plaguing problem of Donald Trump as President is incompetence. Appointing the wrong person for the positions who do not have the kind of requisite background to competently lead those offices. This is what Donald Trump did. I am not going to vote for that level of incompetency by voting Trump who would be more outright criminal and destructive to the United States. I can not in good conscience vote for Trump, ever. I can not in good conscience vote for someone who would never win the election but at most muddy the electoral votes enough that the election be decided by the House of Representatives. Think about it. Donald Trump is the Republican party candidate. They are beholdened to him. Joe Biden is the democrat candidate because he is the incumbant president. MAGA is not real Republicans. They are really the "republicans in name only". A number of them are really terrorist and zealots. You can't negotiate with terrorists and zealots. They aren't of a mind that is willing to negotiate for anything. They are there to destroy the United States so they rather do that than to do anything positive for the benefit of the American people as a whole. 

Why in the world would you or particularly h0wl want to see the United States destroyed? 

Those that would destroy it would not make a new and better nation. You two never personally seen real atrocity of dictatorship. So far, I have neither and hope none of us ever have to but have seen the results of such atrocities. It would make you puke at the horror of what is. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That is what anti-democracy will take you to. Hitler was democratically voted by a republic disillusioned by democracy and handed the reigns on a silver platter to man who was hell bent on world domination and dictatorship. That man was named Adolf Hitler. Genocide directly under his control ordered by him to be carried out. He surrounded himself with sick genocidal racist monster which perpetuated his terror. Had much of Europe west of Germany and the United States not rose up, we would be under the reign of Nazi Germany and in part imperial Japan. Surely, we wouldn't be under Adolph Hitler, today but some Nazi that would have rose up to replace him. Would it been the Drumpf family? Maybe. 

Put it mildly, we do not need nor should want that for us. I plea to your sanity to not back and support Trump or anyone who seeks to destroy democracy. Fuck You, it will not be a minocracy in your favor. It would be a minocracy of MAGA racist extremists. What you vote for is your wishes. Be fucking careful what you wish for, it has a habit of fucking you in ways you never contemplated.

In short, Trump dictorship + MAGA minocracy is a shit show that you would get by voting for Trump. This means your life will ultimately get worse if he gets the power he wants and his MAGA minority rules over the majority under his control carrying out his dictatorship and imposing their wacko agenda. It is bad for everyone. I only have two choices at elections for the POTUS with any meaningful results. That is what we get in our system of elections. So it is Biden or Trump that is our choices that have any chance of getting the electoral votes. Between those two choices, I am choosing Biden. Trump needs to go to prison and we need him to not be elected POTUS so he would be in prison for his crimes and then the whole MAGA cult can disband more or less over time and those people return back to normalcy and sanity and not as rife with division. Sure there will be some that are beyond help. Most are likely closer to normality and just have some differing political views and priorities but not completely lost to the deep end of lunacy.

You won't get a minocracy that you may seek.

I vote for no voting.

If everyone did that, no one will win the electoral votes and then the election is decided by the House of Representatives. You still get Trump dictatorship and supported by the MAGA/Trump cult minocracy. Why don't you just hand over all your possessions and life as Donald Trump slave. Why don't you put a gun to your head and commit suicide while you are it. Seriously, no... I do not suggest you do that. Why would you deliberately fuck yourself and the whole country while you are at it?

If you care so much, I accept cashapp or venmo donations and I'll vote for whoever you tell me. Just know that when that candidate turns out to be bad later, it's your fault for telling me to vote for them.

Or I could leave it up to a coin toss since all the parties are fundamentally the same (all against my interests).

Jovan, I'll just venmo you a couple lincoln coins. I could just mail you and if you are lucky, it might be a penny worth something. I might have a few old ass pennies that might be worth more than its face value but hey.... that's the gamble as I am not one of those so called expert coin value assessors.

I agree that Biden isn't the best possible candidate but they aren't running in one of the two parties that possibly can get electoral votes as their candidate. I do know Biden is better than Donald Trump and demonstrated it by actually being a President instead of a total 24/7 shitshow of lies, twitting, campaigning, bullshit, and criminality. Trump is absolutely disqualified in my book to be President. Biden is at least qualified and done some things good for the country and wasn't a 24/7 shithead. Joe at least didn't get impeached twice in his first term. Currently, not even impeached at all. At least Joe Biden didn't produced 30,500+ confirmed bullshit statements in 4 years. Joe Biden hasn't even been confirmed with lies anywhere in that shear quantity. Think about how many lies, misstatements, and such Trump did in 4 years. That's like ~20 lies a day average. Really, he couldn't shut his mouth or just not twit on twitter. So how can I after all of what Trump did, vote for that douchebag. The guy is even confirmed liar in business.... you know.... that's what is at the root of fraud. He lied his way through life and business. The guy doesn't even know how to not lie. He isn't even credible with judges in New York. Wow.... the guy isn't fit for any public service position. Biden has more credibility so that is why I would be voting for him in the election because I rather accept 4 more years with Biden and Kamala Harris than another 1 day of Trump in office as President. At least we would have a country with democracy where people actually have any rights. You lose your rights when you make any person a dictator with absolute power and absolute immunity to any crime.

Sorry I do not accept lincoln coins. Offer rescinded. I shall not be voting. Best of luck with your voting spree.

Since Florida has already selected Donald Trump because it isn't even a democracy anymore and controlled by a MAGA Trump following wannabe douchebag, your vote doesn't matter. They may just decide to not have Presidential elections voted by the people and select the electoral college voters by their legislative policy slanted to select Donald Trump without the vote of the people of Florida. They might do what another state is contemplating just to thumb their nose with their middle finger up against the people just to give an FU to the people. Problems may be the individual state constitution but then don't care about the laws like constitutions and may just amend it as needed in a very undemocratic, very demagogic manner just to deny the people their voice. So, your individual vote probably doesn't matter.

I have real issues with all my options these days, but I think It’s laughable that anyone in the LGBTQ+ community would abstain from voting on principle if they are even remotely concerned about their best interest. If you’re willing to vote against your best interests for the benefit of others, I respect that… but that’s also not a thing that’s happening here. I can’t fault someone for not voting in a place where the result is a foregone conclusion. The only practical reason for me to vote is local items, since the democrat will win where I live regardless of my opinion. However, making it a matter of principle to abstain is ridiculous to me. Not voting doesn’t wash you clean, you are still implicated in the outcome.

It is a real interesting tie-in to me that one party in particular is actually actively working on suppressing the trans vote.

My principles are based in the belief that my free existence shouldn't be contingent upon a majority vote;

That voting is a tool to placate people from taking real actions toward their own freedom;

That a vote for a presidential candidate doesn't actually have a material outcome on the policy-bill-law process.

I will continue to live my life as I please, legally or not. Voting for a lesser evil won't help me in doing that (speaking historically). 

Furthermore: while one party is actively trying to suppress the LGBTQ+ vote, the other party idly stands by and watches.

The Biden administration reversed their policy stance on trans athletes, allowing congress to decide that each institution should be allowed to discriminate on their own.

The KOSA bill (arguably an anti-LGBT bill) has gained full support from the democratic president, and large bipartisan support in the legislative branch.

The democrats also put off codifying same-sex marriage rights into federal law until after the midterms (when the bill would then be weaker, because they didn't want to disrupt the homophobic parts of their voter base).

The Biden Administration defended (and still does!) the rights of religious schools to discriminate against gay students.

And those are just the LGBTQ+ centered issues. There's plenty more that essentially aligns the two parties categorically.

"Furthermore: while one party is actively trying to suppress the LGBTQ+ vote, the other party idly stands by and watches."

One party is actively trying to destroy LGBTQ+ people while the other stands idly by. Not great options... definitely not equally bad though. 

I don't disagree with your points, just the logic of the conclusion. 

Medieval institutions were actually better for ordinary citizens (in some cases). For example, the average work day pre-capitalism (pre-mechanical clocks) for medieval laborers. While it was common for a worker to spend up to 10 hours at their workplace (and 12 during harvest seasons), the amount of breaks and socially expected downtime resulted in about 4-5 hours of work most of the time, and about 7-9 hours during busy seasons. The social concept of productively working 40 hours in a week just didn't exist before the proliferation of capitalism.

To compare... in most modern countries today, the average worker enjoys about 25-35% of their work time as holiday/time off; in medieval Europe, the average worker would enjoy anywhere between 40-51% of their time as holiday/time off (public holidays, personal leave, non-productive days, vacation, etc.).

Here's an interesting video on the history of work, its policies, social expectations, and capitalism's exploitation of human labor time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvk_XylEmLo

Wouldn't you want to write in someone that you think would do a good job?

Our political system is specifically optimized to prevent people who would do a good job from ever getting close to having any real power or responsibility, and also to protect the government from those people in particular ever interfering with what they are doing.

I never understood the FU vote beyond a certain emotional release — don’t be a toddler; this is our government, and it’s locked in for a few years at a time. In a world that will never provide perfect options, do you earnest best to choose the most good available…

Thank you, proto. I don't understand the attitude of people who won't at least make a minimal effort to make the worst bad thing not happen.

Okay but isn't it weird that every election cycle is always some version of "Oh my god if [insert candidate here] gets elected, then we'll enter the worst possible timeline"? Every election is always "the most important election ever". Every four years it's "If we just vote for the less bad guy, it's better than nothing". And every four years, we slide deeper into fascism.

Joe Biden didn't slow our destruction of the world around us. He approved even more oil drilling than what Trump did.

He didn't stop our concentration camps at the border, but continued them, just as Trump did after Obama set them up before him.

He didn't defend trans rights, but rather sat by as congress defended "states rights" and "private colleges' rights" to not allow trans women to participate in sports, among other things.

But it's not just democrats and republicans. Every party exists in order to reinforce this idea that if we just go out and vote, then things will change. But they won't. Democracy won't save us. Voting won't save us. To shame people for not participating in a system which has directly disenfranchised them is low.

You know what will affect change? Direct action. Unfortunately the things that actually change our society get you put in jail or slandered by the media. If peaceful protest and voting were actually a threat to the status quo, then they'd be illegal.

What direct action are you performing to affect change Jovan?

I'm working with a local non-profit group that directly distributes funds and information and organizes arts and engagement events for under-served and under-privileged communities. I also support small zine groups that disseminate political awareness about the global injustices being committed and funded by government and non-government organizations. And for fun, I go to local shows and small venues that physically support fellow marginalized and LGBTQ+ creators and bystanders from harassment, and which provides them with safe spaces to freely express themselves.

That's great! Although by your standards you're not changing anything. That is unless you've been jailed or slandered in the media. ;)

I can only hope that's in my future Chad.

No you don't. Neither of those things actually affect change.

Jovan, thank you for doing the hard work of organizing and benefiting communities. But voting *does* have an effect on change. This is a fact: if Trump had not been president Roe v. Wade would not have been overturned. You can't pretend not to notice that women's rights, ethnic minority rights, and LGBTQ+ rights are far more likely to be under attack when/where Rs are in power than when/where Ds are. Voting for the lesser evil doesn't make everything perfect, but it *does* have an effect.

The Ds aren't any better than Rs, it's just that anyone left of QAnon prefers not to hear the fact that democrats have been just as terrible for regular citizens. I've listed just a few of them above, but I will happily list out more ways (with sources) of how Democrats have helped to push back womens rights, LGBTQ+ rights, and the liberties of nearly all racial and ethnic minority groups.

And of the Dems and Reps, which side is more likely to push harder against LGBTQ+ rights *in the upcoming four years*?

I know what you're trying to get me to say, but the fact is that they both erode minority rights in different ways.

The fact is that there was complete bipartisan support for the KOSA act, which is very much written in a way to silence LGBT voices online under the pretense of protecting children. The fact is that Biden's administration has not only *not* stopped the detention camps at our borders, but has actually deliberately continued them, and given even more money and power to ICE. 

Republicans outwardly seek to marginalize minority bodies and voices, while democrats support that violence by expanding police budgets across the country which commit and enforce that violence. Biden personally and outspokenly admonished rail strike workers, water protectors and cop city protestors, bringing the full force of government power against those groups.

Democrats (as a party) passively support LGBT causes when it either fits the standard of the upper-middle class gay couple who, in nearly all aspects, mirrors traditional cultural views; or when it's profitable. Observe how drag shows have been whitewashed and are spoken fondly of when they cater to middle class straight women during brunch hour at the local bar & grill. And how modern drag is conflated with transgender identity by liberal media, but when the social harm of that is raised by trans people, they're ostracized by the liberal community. Of course it's not just the LGBT community. Democrats love the idea that we have democracy, but only for those who are willing to conform to white cisgendered heterosexual society which dominates our modern world. Whenever riots happen, Democrats either deny that revolutionary title, or they "condemn all violence", which only says to marginalized people that their struggle is only valid if it conforms to white cis-het economically privileged sensibilities.

Basically just the meme of

Minorities: Can you please defend us?

Republicans: No.

Democrats: No. #blm #loveislove

So you’re saying you’re not interested in helping defy that meme.

Our system has specifically and intentionally structured itself to be immune to the will of the people and any sort of change.

I'd be much happier if politics in the US wasn't viewed like a football game where there are only two teams so only one can win. It's terrible. But there definitely are differences between the two sides.

Nice try troll.

What faults, specifically, bennyc? I'm interested in a conversation, I'm not trolling you.

Could care less if a cad monkey on here thinks I am a troll. Well I dont like his delivery on speeches, his vocabulary, or some of the mannerisms. But when I vote Trump, I am not specifically voting for him personally, I am voting for the general values of the party he represents. I think he is right about the swamp, and he is the counter to the lying politicians. 

I asked for faults of Biden. What specifically are the faults of the Biden administration?

As an American, not particularly proud of putting Biden and Kamala in front of other world leaders for the obvious reasons of age, incoherence and giggling Kamala who is an embarrassment, but lets look at past those personal opinions and look at the bigger issues:

1. Look at what is happening at border and influx of illegal immigrants, and look at quality of life of great cities like NYC, and what is happening there. 

2. Gas prices - remain high

3. Inflation, costs of food and other goods

4. War in Ukraine and Israrel, both under Bidens regime

5. Democrats and Democratic party of this age is much more left leaning and incompetent then the great democratic leaders of the past.

1. Personally I’m fine with closing the border but treating people who are here already with dignity and care.

I don't think treating people with dignity and care is an issue, I think America and Americans in general are the most tolerant people on the planet. I think every person that deserves dignity and care should get it, but a country's border should also be respected and folks coming in should do it legally and be vetted.

Dammit, I wrote a whole enumerated response to your list but #1 is the only one that posted. Grr. I’ll try to replicate it. But later.

To your comment above, benny, people in the US are tolerant but the Rs want to kill the Dream Act - have they already? - and the Ds don't.

bennyc wrotie:

Could care less if a cad monkey on here thinks I am a troll. Well I dont like his delivery on speeches, his vocabulary, or some of the mannerisms. But when I vote Trump, I am not specifically voting for him personally, I am voting for the general values of the party he represents. I think he is right about the swamp, and he is the counter to the lying politicians. 

Prime example of trolling. Attempting to attack the person and not debate the message. Not that it matters however, I’m an architect with 20 years’ experience.  

If you’re voting for the general values of the Republican party, then you’re voting for Trump and his values. Trump is not the counter to lying politicians. Trump is the epidemy of a lying, narcissistic politician with no morals or ethics.

Not my fault; not her fault; not his fault. But it is OUR fault for not taking action. The “American political machinery” is us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. Abandoning the opportunity to have your say is self-harming and only accelerates/reinforces the doom you’re throwing your hands up at.

Proto, when I see a candidate running and who represents my interests, I will vote. Ie: Bernie Sanders. But, your better than worst guys ate him up last time and before.
Thanks for your citizenship lectures. But no thanks. 

*your name, one of the two presidential candidates is *closer to* representing your interests than the other. Choose the one that most closely aligns with what you want. 

Otherwise you're throwing away your vote. Do the local folk you vote for align with your interests *exactly*, every time?

Did I say "exactly" anywhere? But, I would vote for these people in the link I am posting if they were in my district. I will not vote for Biden who went on to hug genocidal butcher of Gaza and still supplying money and ammunition to them as a lifelong Zionist. This is my constitutional right you are condemning. Stop there please! https://pdamerica.org/endorsements/

I also disagree with how the Biden administration is supporting Israel in this conflict. But I more strongly disagree with how the future in the US looks for myself and the people I love if Trump is elected again. This is a version of voting locally.

That all sounds great and very Corbyn or Sanders, so it's not happening via Biden or Starmer as I understand it.

No one has said that "both sides are equal", but to suggest that there's any discernible difference between any political party when it comes to the material outcome for people who already suffer at the hands of government is definitely absurd. Why do you care so much if other people actively choose not to participate in your beloved neoliberal political system?

Keep spinning your word salad: both sides equal vs any discernible difference…uh-huh.

I care because it matters. This is the country I care about, and the it-doesn’t-matter crowd has abdicated their votes and allowed extremists to gain footholds and leverage what power they hold to scramble up our systems. Instead of fighting for progress, we’ve regressed and are fighting over basics that should have been rote at this point.

Jovon, I mean this more humorously than threateningly, but seriously, come say to me, a person with a uterus, that there’s no discernible difference between the left and the right. Say that to the face of any teenage girl in this country.

Donna, but yet again, this is about state level politics, which I feel is still a tangible representation of our needs and wants. Federal politics is nothing but a cesspool of filth, racism and dirty money.

sameold there is a history of the federal level addressing human rights issues that the states vary on. For example, slavery. The civil rights act. The ADA. So yes, federal politics is a cesspool, but if I want the same rights as a male citizen it has to be addressed at the federal level. One party, the Ds, thinks I deserve equal human rights. One party, the Rs, does not. As a woman I have a *very* strong reason to vote D, as does any citizen who thinks all humans deserve the same rights.

Who is included when accommodating "our" needs and wants?

Except that the D's don't think that Palestinians deserve the same rights... D's don't think that trans people deserve the same rights (at least, not enough to meaningfully fight for it). D's don't think that indigenous people deserve the same rights (arguably going back decades, but also as recent as the continued oil drilling and pollution on indigenous land). So yes, you could argue that D's care more about women's rights (arguably specifically white middle-class women), but it's an ignorant statement that "any citizen who thinks all humans deserve the same rights" should therefore vote Democrat.

Yes, the erosion of Roe V Wade is a huge step backwards for the rights of people who give birth in our country, and the blame for that can squarely be placed with the Republican party. Credit where credit is due. It's still baffling to me that the Democrats refuse to actually meaningfully fight for equity and justice when given all the tools to do so, simply because they are beholden either to (A) a large portion of the voter base that does not believe in equity; and/or (B) a sum of wealthy or corporate donors and lobbyists who care much more about their profit than they do about equity. And that would be giving them a lot of good faith, that democratic politicians even actually care about the issues they claim. Lord knows Obama loved drone striking brown kids...

Jovan, I’m not disagreeing with any of the things that you’re saying the Ds do that are bad. But I’m saying that the Rs do things that are demonstrably worse. That’s not arguable. Not voting is saying you really don’t care if things are demonstrably worse for the most marginalized people because you’ll be fine. To me, personally, that’s selfish and wrong.

Donna, if you genuinely think that the Democratic party is somehow materially better for human rights than the Republican party (and I am specifically talking about parties here, not demonstrations or direct action led by people in the streets or your neighborhood), then I guess we've reached an impasse. If that's your genuine belief, then please, go vote. As for me, I would rather spend my energy, time, and health directly participating in community action, because I don't believe in voting (or democracy for that matter) as a form of harm reduction. I have no qualms with others choosing to exercise their government-given right.

Jovan, I have a uterus. My child is dating a nonbinary person. My niece is gay. My longest closest friend is gay. One of my best friends is in a same-sex marriage conceiving their child with IVF. Another of my best friends is mother to a child transitioning FtM right now. Many of my favorite closest coworkers are Black, gay, and nonbinary. Tell me honestly: Do you think I should be able to look them squarely in the face and tell them I love them but didn't bother to vote against the Republican party? Seriously, how could I, as an empathetic human, tell all the people I love that even though I was right there, in the voting booth, I couldn't vote for Joe because I just don't vibe with him? I would consider myself to be a true asshole if I did that.

idealism/ideological purity masquerading as direct action has no response to this because all of the above are real, material concerns.

Yes, if the reason for not voting for Joe Biden were "Oh I just don't agree with him on all issues", that would make me an asshole. But the reason is not that. 

The reason is that he fully supports the genocide of Palestinians in the middle east. That he is more than happy to imprison, kill, and disappear those protesting against vastly expanding oil drilling and Cop City projects. That he continues to increase budgets for ICE and allow the continued construction of a border wall, both of which directly contribute toward violence against Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. That he and the rest of his party *at best* stand by and enable right wing state governments to criminalize LGBTQ+ people in all aspects of daily life, and *at worst* will actively side with right-wing lawmakers in order to "protect the children".

If you're going to tell me that those things are something to be shrugged off and put aside for another day in the name of an eternal struggle against the republican party (who, yes, we all know if just as terrible as what I've stated above; that's my point), then I genuinely don't know how to argue with you.

Jovan, how would a Trump administration not do those things and more?

I never said that I support a Trump administration. However, from a harm standpoint (since you want to go on and on about how voting is harm reduction), the Biden administration has been just as bad for everyone who is not white and middle class as the Trump administration was before it. There has been no form of harm reduction at all, and in fact, Biden and the democrats actually bragged about expanding their police and ICE budgets in 2021 and 2022, which have bene used to violently supress indigenous, black and brown people across the country.

how about the 14 million jobs added during the biden admin? that's just as bad for everyone who is not white and middle class as the all the jobs lost during trump years? it's not just trump v biden either - the economic data has been historically significantly better for democrats than republicans since truman. has the economy been perfect over that time? of course not. (would i prefer an alternative to capitalism? you bet.) but if i have to, i'll choose the party that supports more people (including POC) being able to meet their basic material needs because i'm not a selfish ideologue.

Do what you want. Vote if it makes you happy or helps you feel like you've done something good. As for me, I won't be choosing between one violent fascist and another.

ivanmillya I had not really thought of voting for the least bad option as being “harm reduction,” but I guess it is. I’m currently working with an addiction organization that is deeply committed to harm reduction in drug use, and it actually helps me think about them in a more nuanced way, which I admit I need to be further educated on. So, even though I completely disagree with your take on voting, thank you for giving me that parallel.

ivanmilya - That sounds almost like you're not supporting either side because they both do horrible things. Odd, when I said I couldn't support Israel or Hamas because of the horrible things they've done / do you you called me a coward amongst other nasty things. 

 Very odd. It's almost hypocritical.

It's honestly rather insulting when people suggest that Joe Biden is somehow a bastion of hope against Trump, considering the litany of horrible things he's either done to various minority groups, continued to do from previous administrations, or just straight up allowed/supported happening by the other party.

I would like to clarify that I did not want Biden in the first place for a number of reasons. I still would prefer someone else, but that isn’t the current choice.

However, the “litany of horrible things” is not just a misrepresentation, it’s a metaphorical overstatement that ignores some basics, like belief/support of rule of law. Mr Trump & a number of the far right GOP don’t believe in rule of law, unless it’s convenient for them. Trump has come out and said it explicitly on multiple subjects. The first vote taken under the Republican Congress that took power when Trump was inaugurated tried to gut ethics oversight in a secret vote. They had to back away from it when it was made public. There are substantive, objective differences in the choices we have before us.

It’s like Trump is graded on a curve & Biden is graded on an absolute scale. They are not at all in the same place on a spectrum. Biden isn’t immune from criticism, but it’s just not reasonable to hold them in the same category of fault.

Enjoy your trump. I'll check back in a couple years to see whether you regret choosing not to exercise your most important r
ight

sameolddoctor, can you elaborate on “Genocide Joe” & poc? It’s not obvious. What exactly are you referring to? I can only think of US support of Israel as the reference for genocide (unless it’s historical treatment of native americans?) & then I don’t get the link to american POC (which could be any number of folks, but the black experience is what i think of first)

Biden is definitely not a bastion of hope against Trump. He’s the slightest, whispery-thinnest spider silk tress of hope against actual fascism.

Proto, is it too simplistic to think that PoCs (= yes any number of brown and black people) are much more against the genocide in Gaza as well as support to Israel than white people? (lets not forget that Biden has received the MOST contributions from Israeli groups since the last 100 years that he's been around)

We relate more to the suffering of the Palestinians because we see US action there as nothing but the promotion of a white nation in the Middle East, for various nefarious reasons. 

Biden has posited himself to the RIGHT of Reagan when it comes to Israel, which is saying something.

Biden can end the bombing of Gaza right now. Here’s how

Lets not forget that Biden has continued to build Trump's wall, and has done pretty much nothing to aid legal immigration, or help undocumented residents.

Trump is probably the worst thing to happen to American politics in the last 50 years, but Biden is a literal ghoul in guise as a liberal.So yeah, eff them both, enjoy your democracy. Btw I live in CA where my presidential vote does not really matter.

I think there is some misunderstanding about the situation in the middle east and as to actually support of genocide. First, Israel *IS* America's base of entrance to entering the middle east. ISIS is still real and is still an ACTIVE threat. ISIS may be renamed in the future just as it was the renamed Al'Queada of Iraq that became ISIS. It transforms but it is still a threat. There WILL be another war in the middle east within the next 20 years. Israel is our military strategic ally in the middle east since it was established by the United States and the United Kingdom. If you think we can just go use Saudi Arabia. Not so fast. The Saudi Arabian crown prince Mohammed bin Salman is an emerging future dictator much like Saddam Hussein. Lets take a note of the prince's act of murder in recent times. If he signed on to the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi then he's not going to change for the better. He will continue to do this kind of activity. The Saudi prince would likely become a dictator. This is likely to emerge in the next 5 or so years. When U.S. gets involved to remove the Saudi prince (future King of Saudi Arabia) is unclear. It is still a technical 'if' but it is more likely than not that we would have to remove Mohammad bin Salman at some point when he becomes a tyrant dictator. This is going to require good relations with Israel as a point of entry. It gives us a landing point from the Mediterranean with NATO forces. There are reasons that a President of the United States is aware of that must think FOUR DIMENSIONALLY. Yes, we must think about future situations. We knew in the end of Vietnam that our next war theater was going to be in the middle east and was preparing troops for desert combat not just the jungle. This comes from intelligence information and emerging political trends. Right now, the middle east is still going to be an active theater for much of THIS century. There are potential issues in the eastern Europe re-emerging as a theater as well as eastern Asia. Much of future war theater will be in mediterranean (including northern Africa), eastern Europe, middle-east, and eastern Asia. Sounds familiar? It should. It was primary venue of wars during the 20th century. The central recurring problem area will likely be middle east and eastern Europe with regards to Russia. Northern Africa may be intermittant areas of conflicts but eastern Asia (especially with that North Korean dictator). My point is there is emerging issues that we don't want to lose Israel as an ally over Netanyahu. I don't think Biden supports genocide itself. He should do more in response but it is a tricky situation. Our country is strategically preparing for war in the not to distant future and we need to not shoot ourselves in the foot, strategically. Israel was a crucial entry point in the war in Iraq and dealing with ISIS. It is also a point of entry so we can land troops, tanks, etc. and go into Saudi Arabia if we have to. It is also locations where we land and take our jets and aircrafts. I think Biden is kind of between a rock and a hard place because on one hand he would want to take a more proactive step against the genocide but we don't want to lose Israel as a point of strategic entry when the next war in the middle east comes around and yet, there is that issue with the MAGA republicans not wanting to provide funding for humanitarian aid or application of strategic military response to cause Netanyahu to back off of genocide. There is only so much budget allotted for military responses without official declaration of war which in the U.S. would require Congressional approval. This is why we can't just come in with a massive shock and awe on Israel without Congressional approval. There are rules even a President has to follow despite how lawless Donald Trump is. Biden is averse to blatant disregard of the laws of the United States and the Constitution. Remember, when you are electing a President, you are also electing a VICE-PRESIDENT. At Biden's age, he may resign from office at some point during the 2024-2028 if elected, then the Vice-President becomes President. So Kamala Harris would be President. Politically, Joe is running because politically, he can beat Donald Trump. Kamala Harris doesn't yet have the political debate experience to compete with Trump because polls-wise, Trump is weakest against Joe Biden. However, Kamala Harris would be able to take charge of the office if Joe decides to resign after re-elected in 2026, for example. I think this next term, if re-elected, Joe will begin a process of Kamala Harris having a more active role for Vice-President than usual bringing her to the forefront in preparation for a 2028 run by Kamala Harris. Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorist groups like Hamas. However, it is how they defend themselves that matters. This has been Biden AND Harris's position. They don't support genocide but they also support the right of a nation to defend itself from a terrorist group attacking them. The problem is, there is no control the United States or ANY nation can control how another sovereign country fight its war. We don't own Israel. It isn't a U.S. territory. Of course, we could withhold weapons supply. Perhaps that and sanctions but that is something best reinforced by UN and on a larger scale of impact to influence.

Those surveys were around october end, and now the feeling is even heightened. As I said, us PoCs see Israel's actions as a WHITE COLONIAL exercise, rooted in apartheid and illegal subjugation. Genocide Joe (and his cabinet) have been expanding it even more than many republicans did. 

At the home front we struggle to see what they have done for us (or any other group to be honest). They spent the good part of the first two years trying to put Trump in jail for the insurrection while achieving little else.

As for his calls for a ceasefire, they are all BS - calling for a ceasefire while sending more arms to the Israelis is indeed just BS.

Indeed BS. A ceasefire is an absolute necessity beyond the conflict but for humanity. The rest of the world sees this much clearer than the underserved PoC of the USA. Surveys are stretchable part of statistics.

A ceasefire is necessary. The reason to keep Israel armed is possibly for reasons beyond just the Hamas issue. The problem with polls and general public, they can't see 1 inch passed their nose let alone see what is developing in the next 5, 10, and 15 years and the war with Saudi Arabia in the not too distant future and what Israel is strategically for the U.S. in that upcoming war with that Saudi prince becomes King when the current King dies. The King of Saudi Arabia is only has a relatively short number of years left (if not sooner) with declining health. Then you have a Saudi Arabian crown prince whom assassination is not beneath him. That is something that is the making of a dictator-type tyrant whom may not be as friendly to the U.S., Israel, etc. The Palestine is in itself of little to no strategic value to the U.S. in that next war. Israel is. The land and territory. It is where we can land and make entry into Saudi Arabia and where we can launch planes from without just using ships and can bring ships in from the Mediterranean. The situation with Israel is problematic. Lets also not forget that the ISIS/ISIL/IS problem isn't over. We still also have Syria. Just because it is currently calm at the moment doesn't mean it won't reignite and become a problem for us, the U.S. in the future. Basically, Israel is surrounded by the Islamic world which religiously speaking would ultimately unify to some extent the various Islamic nations which would ALL be happy to wipe Israel from existence because there is practically no single Islam nation anywhere that really supports the idea of Israel. They would be happy to evict the Jews and Christians and make it all Islam. Basically, Israel really doesn't have a single friendly neighbor. It goes back literally to the beginning. You can say, not only the beginning of this Israel state that was established in the 20th century but to an extent all the way back to Abraham and Ishmael and that whole story right in the Bible itself. So, yeah, they aren't exactly friendly. Some may be tolerating but not really friends. There is a deep seeded multi-generational thousands of years animosity even when unspoken. On one hand, I think, Israel's creation in the 20th century was insensitive imposing that U.S. and UK imposed. It was going to be constantly rife with war ever since and it is unlikely to ever end because there is just too much 'bad blood' between Jews and Islam & Arabs (okay, non-Jew Middle Eastern ethnic cultures) in general. You can just look to the Bible and find a lot of history of bad blood in the middle east.

Got it. I'll go write in "fuck you" in my ballot this year then. Since technically that means I'm voting against the party I don't want (all of them). Does that work?

If you're actually taking the time and effort to go to make one vote I can't understand why you wouldn't check *all* of the boxes for whatever you think will be the less bad option. That's all.

Because I won't be made to choose between the party who is okay with killing trans people domestically, and the party who is okay with killing brown people abroad. (Note that both of these statements apply to both major parties)

Jovan - That sounds almost like you're not supporting either side because they both do horrible things. Odd, when I said I couldn't support Israel or Hamas because of the horrible things they've done / do you you called me a coward amongst other nasty things.

Very odd.  It's almost hypocritical.  

What was even more iconic is that the cop was pointing a gun a person who is literally on fire. And lets not forget that Genocide Ghoul Joe actually said "We need to fund the police, not defund them"

Police do need to be funded. Seattle's short term "DMZ" experiment showed that & Portland's continues to demonstrate that. [Please don't pretend that's a vote for an over-militarized, shoot-first, profiling police.] Society is too complex to not have security and rule of law; and humans have always demonstrated that some of them will choose to do uncivilized things.

Ah right, we must be complicit in jailing or killing minorities because if we didn't have that system, society would turn into The Purge! Do I have that right, Proto?

"some of them will choose to do uncivilized things." ESPECIALLY THOSE IN POWER.

Wait, it IS a vote for "an over-militarized, shoot-first, profiling police."

Ivanmillya, no

ivan/jovan why the name change?

Probably because people can easily look you up when using your real name. Hopefully Jovan isn't getting harassed.

well, then, can TBGH delete that post of mine above with the question of identity? 

I can't flag my own. [then they can delete this one.]

I have no idea why ze changed zer username. I'm sure if it was a problem ze'd contact TBGH and it would be taken care of. I hope it's not a problem and ze just wanted to change zer username.

.

In modern America, you can vote when you're dead too!

You can also become Mormon after your dead.

Inshallah!

Yes this is accurate. But it doesn’t make the concept of “the lesser of two evils” any less valid.

Sorry Donna, not falling into that quagmire for the presidential elections. Just like the Arab Americans in Michigan we will make our voices heard.

So your idea is to not vote - let Trump win - have less rights - and somehow make your voice heard?

sameold I actually think a protest vote in a primary that is essentially predetermined is a GOOD thing! It DOES send a message! But doing the same in a general election of which the outcome is unpredictable is not a good thing.

"No one is safe until all of us are safe" is something i hear in protests all the time these days. Same goes for Palestinians. Sorry to bring race into this, but as a PoC i do not feel safe in the US anymore, and somehow its worse than the trump days. With israel bombing civilians who gather for food with AMERICAN, biden supplied weapons, not sure how a brown person can feel safe. It is all a shame meant to still marginalize people of color. As i said, enjoy your "democracy"

It is bad. Your solution is to not vote though? Protests are a great way let people know of the issue and get your voice heard. Unfortunately protesting alone won't change anything unless laws are changed. Laws are changed with voting.

I’m curious, sameold, that you say you feel less safe as a POC now then you did under Trump, is it the Israel situation specifically or something else in general?

But I thought voting was worthless and didn't promote change?

So if Trump wins do you think Americans will have their voices heard?  

I said I would vote for Cornell West. Go get some sleep!

That's the same thing as not voting. Your 'protest' vote is meaningless and won't change anything other than to make you feel like you've done something without doing anything or having to think things through. Good luck with that.

Learn how to respect other people's choices. Your know-it-all and know-it-correctly posts are really offensive and boring.

I respect your choice.

I just disagree with it and don't think it will accomplish anything.

I honestly don’t understand not voting. It’s like: you can choose between being thrown into Pit A, with an angry, hungry housecat, or Pit B, with an angry, hungry tiger. But if you refuse to pick, you get Pit B. Why would you not pick A?!

If you are brown Pit A and Pit B are exactly the same. Hence.

To an Arab Muslim, there's no lesser evil between these two presidential candidates. Please don't wash away the civilian blood. You have no idea what the Muslims are going through and what kind of hurt is inflicted upon them with mass killings of women, children, and innocent people in general by the so-called Western world. Why would a Muslim American elect someone, who has openly facilitated and continuously doing so, a genocidal war?

Fight with Hamas and not kill three-year-olds. The civilians have no power to say to Hamas not to hide behind them. What is so hard to understand this and seeking/accepting eye-to-eye barbarism?

So, screw everything? I guess that's the part I don't get. There's no argument that US support of Israel has significant impacts. Meanwhile, there are also a number of exceptional issues with catastrophic possibilities that are effectively on the ballot with these two candidates that certainly affect the arab muslim community just by being american problems.

Counteracting an openness to autocratic values in federal department leaders? Counteracting a recently surging white nationalist movement? Challenging government takeover by christian fundamentalist values? Gutting the EPA regulations for clean water & air? Continuing to privilege corporations over people? Health care? Education funding? Etc

These other items don't go away.

*your_name, I do see civilian deaths in Palestine as western-led barbarism that the US is contributing to. As a US citizen I'm horrified by it. But I also see that whether Trump or Biden is elected that specific barbarism will likely continue. What I *don't* see happening if Biden is elected is an unstoppable ongoing stripping of rights from US citizens, especially brown and Black, gay, and female citizens.

sameold, I reject your belief that Pit A and Pit B are equally bad *if* you're a brown person. What if you're a brown gay woman?

For both pits I am brown before I am a brown gay woman. So we feel its crap for us either ways. For the record, Trump's saber rattling somehow did not make us brown folk scared, we took it as the antics of a petulant little shit. But this palestine thing makes us very scared even though its thousands of miles away.

I think I know what it is - with Trump most of us knew he was a racist PoS and were not really surprised when he came forward with the saber rattling. With Biden and Co. most of us (me included) rallied to get support for him and he fucked us over. And obviously this is the whole Dems machinery (Pelosi etc included).

Please explain "he fucked us over" or give it some meat beyond gaza. Or, if it's just gaza, that's fine too, if that's what you're referring to...i'm just not seeing "fucked us over".

Proto, it is pretty obvious that you have absolutely no clue beyond your bubble. You actually asked earlier in the convo what the genocide was about. But if you are really interested please see why Biden's vote share in the Black and Latino communities is declining. (some reasons - no measurable ameliorative action, hes continued trump's wall, no change to legal immigration etc etc). So yeah hes a ghoul that hasnt done much for us.

sameold I Liked both your comments above because I understand them emotionally. Totally. But I still think the logical response is to vote for the lesser of two evils rather than not vote at all. Rationally, I don’t understand not voting. But we’re obviously never going to agree and I respect your right to your opinion. All love.

sameolddoctor, I'd dispute the phrasing "having absolutely no clue beyond your bubble" (that's assertively presumptive language for not knowing me beyond this forum). Further let's clarify that my "asking what the genocide was about" was about your use of the word without reference, not challenging its reference to Gaza. This is the kind of metaphorically expansive language that I object to in the conversation because it asserts statuses beyond the facts of the situation and doesn't help understanding. I am willing to admit my own bubble, but I also feel pretty good you don't know me well enough to know exactly what it contains. That said, it's not opaque, and I am open to seeing what's beyond.

The "genocide" is not metaphorically expansive, its also been the finding of the ICJ. So thats that. Point remains that Biden has not done nearly enough for PoCs at home or abroad, so f him. And obviously F Trump.

SOD - are you referring to proto's comments back in October 2023? Or are your commenting on something more recent?

What should Biden have done for poc at home?

[what did i say in october?]

Proto, maybe you should ask your PoC friends.

SOD - I know this is frustrating and you're probably very busy.   It would be helpful though if you would be able to answer the questions being asked of you.  Thanks.  

Proto - I'm not sure if the general questioning about what was going on right after the attacks began are what SOD is referring to or not.  I truly am unsure of what SOD is referencing.  

@sameolddoctor, I have, and I’m asking you too

I mean, Biden didn’t try to implement a Muslim ban.

...And Trump didn't kill as many Muslims despite all the saber rattling. But it seems like all of us are super comfortable to our own narratives. And Proto I've expressed what we expected Biden to do and he didnt - so yeah.

If Trump becomes POTUS, I am contemplating some extended vacation time in Canada. I hope Canada doesn't mind. I am not saying permanent residence but time to look at what I need to determine from the way things go. U.S. under a dictatorship of a man like Trump is the worst option of all because everyone will be screwed during his regime because he is a bad man who will screw everyone. No one wins with Trump and they lose everything with him over time. Joe Biden isn't seeking to be President for the next 20+ years. He would do peaceful transition of power. Donald would not. What we have, sucks in a number of ways is better. You actually have a life. Donald isn't going to help you be successful and would kill you to get rid of you because he wants it all for himself only and you are a mouth to feed if he keeps you alive. Once dictator, he doesn't need you or at least 90% of us. He doesn't need 350 Million people to rule over if he can get rid of 99% of us and have maybe 3.5 Million of us or less that are his closest followers. 99% of us, he would boot. He is outright seeking to boot any republican that isn't blind followers of him. So no, don't want to be here with that regime.

SOD, you do realize the stuff they used are stuff U.S. supplied Israel even before Biden was POTUS? You do realize Israel killing Muslims in Gaza is actions under the orders of Netanyahu? Beyond Israel, regarding Muslims, we were in war with Saddam Hussain with regards to Iraq, Al'Qaeda and ISIS/ISIL/IS and a number of other places that were sponsoring and supporting these terrorists groups. You do realize it because a particular and significant terrorist group that became ISIS/ISIL/IS was Al'Qaeda and they attacked us in 2001. We weren't as systematically killing Muslims just because their religion of Islam. At least, that wasn't the normative behavior of our leaders. We weren't so blatantly indiscriminate killing of Muslims just because they are Muslims. We were fighting Iraq's military while they were under Saddam Hussein. We were fighting Al'Qaeda who are not beholden to any particular nation. They were their own. Our country had been having significant issues with Islam because of Ayatollah Khomeini. He influenced basic anti-western world ideology throughout the Middle East. A lot of terrorist groups formed under that influence. A lot of that can be traced right to when U.S. and UK help create Israel (today's Israel) after WW II. We created Israel and there has been animosity and hatred by a multitude of Islamic groups. Creating Israel was one of the most blatant insensitive decision we ever done. Ever since, we been hated by many. For many, there has never been forgiveness for. We never sought it and they never wanted to be forgiving so there is a lot of distrust. The best thing for U.S. is to get out of middle eastern affairs and focus military with regards to North Korea as that war never officially ended. No peace treaty was sign that declares an end of war. Other than that, we have our NATO responsibilities to protect NATO from Russian expansion westward. We should no longer be in the middle east but unfortunately, we will be there again.

@sameolddoctor

“And Proto I've expressed what we expected Biden to do and he didnt - so yeah.”

Actually, no, not really…I found the following from this thread that weren’t about US Israel policy:

“as a PoC i do not feel safe in the US anymore, and somehow its worse than the trump days.”

“At the home front we struggle to see what they have done for us (or any other group to be honest). They spent the good part of the first two years trying to put Trump in jail for the insurrection while achieving little else.”

“Lets not forget that Biden has continued to build Trump's wall, and has done pretty much nothing to aid legal immigration, or help undocumented residents. Trump is probably the worst thing to happen to American politics in the last 50 years, but Biden is a literal ghoul in guise as a liberal.”

I see epithets expressing anger at biden but not why. The few moments I read are: don’t-feel-safe; continued wall-building; & failed to pass immigration reform.

For clarity, I’m not trying to contradict you; I’m trying to get you to express some of the issues that lead to those clearly strong opinions. I assume you’ve made an opinion based on some experiences or policy problems or something — can you talk about those at all? For instance, why do you feel unsafe? Is it legislation? Is it american culture? Is it a Biden policy? Further, is it fair to blame any president for failing to do something he doesn’t own all the tools to fix?

[ie, I feel like Obama got BLAMED for not fixing America too, and he was very strategically blocked at every opportunity at progressive policy reform. The ACA was butchered from its inception and barely passed even where it got to. Similarly, Biden's infrastructure package went out the door as a severely edited package]

Obama SHOULD be blamed for not fixing America, and also for breaking it even further. Not only did he NOT clean up and fix our absolutely corrupt financial system in the wake of the GFC, he bailed all the buccaneers out and stuck us with the bill. And then he institutionalized a racial spoils system in his second term while giving the intelligence agencies carte blanche to do whatever they wanted, both abroad and at home.

Actually gwharton - I blame the American people. All of them for everything.  

Gwharton, that’s probably another thread

obama certainly deserves some blame.. he helped bail out the banks, whereas biden gave people money directly in their wallets. obama also missed a huge legislative opportunity with healthcare, but biden helped pass the largest investment in renewable energy in the history of the us (helping to get to 32.4GWdc production in 2023, a 51% increase from 2022). 

overall i find obama much more disappointing than biden.

Overall, I blame all of us. I blame that we just don't collectively love this country. Most of us just don't care if the U.S. collapses. We are too myopic to care about others on a national scale. We are just a Divided States of America.... we are a Divided People of America. We have no sense of unity. We just don't give a shit if the country falls. We'd just change our citizenship like we change our political parties. We just don't care what it is to be in allegiance or oaths. These are literally alien concept in our culture where there it is everyone for themselves. We are proud to say FUCK YOU to everyone else. Our favorite words and story is FUCK YOU. That is what we became as a people. We all know this experiment is now basically a big red, white, and blue-wrapped dick shoved up everyone's asses. This is how we made it. We made the U.S. into a red, white, and blue-wrapped cock. Our country is far too often and too busy talking about Hunter Biden's penis than doing important things. The nation is full of Marjorie Toilet Greens. Because it doesn't take any effort to be a piece of shit. It does take an effort to be a decent person. We just lazy to be decent and prefer to be lazy pieces of shit than do a fucking thing about it. This fucking shit pile of a thread demonstrates it quite clearly. What can I expect from red, white, and blue wrapped turds.......hmmm.... guess that is what we get.... SHIT IN SHIT OUT (SISO). Congratulations shit people and enjoy your shit life with your shitty DICKtator named Donald Trump and your Marjorie Toilet Greens and their infatuation for some guy's penis. Apparently, Hunter's penis must be larger than Donald's penis otherwise she'd be talking about Donald's penis. I'm wondering if it would be better for me to someday leave this shithole of a country we are making to a better country where there is some fucking dignity.

At least with Biden's State of the Union address, there is hope and optimism with Biden.

great speech from biden last night, and even better job numbers this morning. things are looking up.

Proto did you hear when Biden called out "illegals" last night? Sure you did not even hear it.

I didn't watch the SOTU - I celebrated my wife's birthday with her last night. What does "sure you did not even hear it" mean exactly?

You are right its all effed up. So not wasting time to vote seems like the right choice.

How do you recommend that we affect change then SOD?

Let the country burn and move to Canada?

panda this is AI, yes?

Yes but it is not to inaccurate, right? American history while very different from that of Roman history, is seeing some eerily similar timelines right now.

inaccurate? incomplete and stereotypical without nuance

It is hard work replying to people with no foresight or interest in research - but I will entertain you O' Proto Troll:

Political corruption: Both Roman Empire and America experienced political corruption. Leaders prioritized personal power and wealth over citizen welfare.

Economic issues: Both empires faced economic challenges. Issues included inflation, debt, and a widening wealth gap.

Military overspending: Both empires allocated significant funds to their military. Rome's unsustainable military budget contributed to its collapse. America's massive military spending raises concerns about long-term sustainability.

Overexpansion: Both empires expanded beyond their capacity. Rome overextended itself through excessive territorial conquests. America's involvement in numerous global conflicts raises concerns about overextension.

The reason we repeat history in varying ways: 

1) Humans haven't evolved in the past 250,000 YEARS, 

2) Most Humans don't give a fuck about history so they don't learn from it. We aren't born with ancestral memory and it isn't something we are genetically wired to naturally care about the past. It isn't instinctual for humans, 

3) Greed and desire to always want more. Humans ARE naturally selfish, greedy, creatures. We do this because it is GENETICS of the whole species. Every damn one of us is this way. 

As individuals, we may learn to overcome our natural genetic nature of what we are. This is taught not stuff we are born with. Without education, every single damn one of us humans would be selfish and greedy creatures with a constant desire for more than what we have. We get our values in the earliest of our days by our parents and by those authority figures. This is ultimately the reason all nations, kingdoms, and empires of humans will inevitably fail until humans are extinct. Humans will eventually be extinct. Humans forgot what they are... animals. They refuse to accept the fact they are animals likely related to the apes. This is the common nature of all primates, but not just primates.

"Humans haven't evolved in the past 250,000 YEARS" 

This is a false statement. 

https://www.science.org/content/article/team-uncovers-new-evidence-recent-human-evolution

"troll" huh? nice [i've been around here a bit longer than you] That blurb reads like a purposely pessimistic take on the state of the US. There is truth in it, but it hardly reads as neutral or impartial. So, yeah: "incomplete and stereotypical without nuance"...something you might find in a media entry to provoke clicks and eyeballs for ratings. And you say it was AI that wrote that? Quel surprise it spit out media paraphrasing. There is an alternate reality to the "daily struggle" indicated by rising wages, record low unemployment, generally growing life expectancy (with a jog per pandemic), and increased education levels. The US isn't perfect and still needs LOTS of work, but it isn't a tanking 3rd world country despite how popular it is now to metaphorically describe current events instead of factually.

Yea, you are right in a lot of this. Again, I was monkeying around with AI on that first post I wrote. I think the points it has brought up (and the ones you also mentioned) can both be right, because both are. I just find it interesting so many outlets now are spinning narratives because likely they all have an agenda based on who is backing them, or who they want to be supported by. Case in point is the recent stream of "influencers" many corporations are utilizing and then when it all goes to shit, they are left in quandary. Regardless, this is playing to them to get attention and I think at the end of the day that is all these companies care about, eyes, clicks and views.

I guess I am just sad and longing for more simple times where media and collective hive mind is not trying to always take digs at people or drum up salacious click bait. I think the onus is also on myself and probably others who let it bother us....but I have had glimpses into worlds where people have almost no influence from current culture media and it seems almost blissful to have control or removal of such outside forces. 

gwharton, I'll retract the statement that humans haven't evolved. However, I would say we haven't evolved in the areas that matters sufficiently as to what kind of evolution of the brain in a significant fashion that matters to the context. Human brains biologically functioned the same fundamentally today as it were before the ice age. We just don't evolve fast or in significant ways that would surely elevate us past being animals. 

The elements I said prior still holds the same 250,000 years ago, 60,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago, and today, and probably 30,000 years into the future. So. We just don't evolve genetically that quickly. If you aren't taught and educated and instilled values and all, you are going to behave as animals without the institutions in our societal culture. If we don't instill the value of history, we just are not going to give a shit about what happened before we were born. For us, cognitively on the individual level, the "world" starts from when we are born. This is where we establish our "perspective world". The physical planet been turning for long time before that. But the "psychological world"... the world perceived in our minds, that begins at birth. 

We don't naturally think about the past before our own individual times because we don't have the life record of it in ourselves so we don't get what something back in the 60s means to you when we are born in the 80s or later, naturally. We just don't normally care about those things. We have not developed any sort of genetics for ancestral knowledge or a hive mind. It is not how we are on the genetic level.

They always are. Not that it matters.

Really, setting up a temporary pier on the shore in Gaza, while they could easily tell the israelis to calm down and let aid in? Or doing airdrops of rancid meals just for theater? Its a cruel joke.

Oh dont forget US national guard in NYC subways, lots of freedom to go around with the dems.

sameold, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize what Biden's handlers are doing in the world these days, but let's not exaggerate. Building a temporary port in Gaza is certainly stupid theatrics calculated to get us involved in a shooting war that is none of our business, but they are not air-dropping "rancid" meals on the Palestinians.

There have been several reports from people on the ground that a lot of these meals were inedible. Forget the fact that we airdropped only 30k meals for a population of over 1.5 million. To me even that is theatrics, where they could just have the Israelis stand down and let the hundreds of trucks in. And yes the port is nothing but us having a temporary base there.

MREs literally never go bad unless the packaging is severely damaged. They are shelf stable and have no expiration dates. This has been the case for almost a century. Troops fighting in the Korean War were eating rations manufactured during WW2, and they were completely fine. The claims about MREs being inedible are as theatrical as the original gesture of dropping them.

Were the MREs Halal?

"but let's not exaggerate." thank you, gwharton

"to get us involved"? haven't we been sending military supplies to those "allies" since day one?

What’s the issue with my halal comment?

figure it out

No. You should explain. Dopey. Given that the majority Muslim population in Rafah would likely not find edible anything not halal, why is it wrong to ask that question? Do you think our government has an interest in meeting dietary restrictions of a population they are interested in cleansing from the land of Palestine?

I think the point is that the question is easily answered with google. Also, it’s very much in bad faith and assumes something about the actions based on your own negative opinion without good reason.

An assumption that is unsurprisingly incorrect. Which is to say… per the internet, yes the MREs are apparently halal

Yes, there are halal MREs, but it is presumptuous of you to assume that what was dropped, are all halal. I mean, how do you know? The military has already dropped one of these and killed five, they only dropped enough to feed what, 2% of the population for how long? Oh, and by the way, they’re still sending weapons illegally, to kill more civilians daily. So what incentive is there to give them edible meals?

https://www.dla.mil/Troop-Support/Subsistence/Operational-rations/Kosher-and-Halal/

Why do we feed people on death row, why not just slip poison into their food? The illusion of humane treatment perhaps? I think you’re letting cynicism outweigh the logic of it. I’d be skeptical that the military didn’t even drop any food and it’s all a lie to the same extent I’d be skeptical they didn’t actually drop Halal food, I mean, how do you know anything? .. Anyway, that is to say, I’m not that skeptical. They probably genuinely dropped Halal MREs. To your point, the food doesn’t do much in the grand scheme of what the US is doing. So why go though the trouble and risk to lie about it, when the purpose is entirely optics anyway? It really makes no sense.

Of course we don’t do that, said no one ever.

What, let cynicism outweigh logic? Agreed, we do that all the time, it’s understandable.

How long will it last?
24 month shelf life from date of production.

How can I order it?
The NSN for the Kosher Ration is 8970-01-424-1996 and for the Halal Ration is 8970-01-424-1998. Requisitions are processed according to the supply procedures for each Military Service. Point of contact is at (215) 737-5648, DSN: 444-5648 We can only sell Operational Rations (MREs, UGRs, etc) to the U.S. Military Services and other authorized federally-funded agencies. We cannot sell to the private sector (individual, business, or other organizations). For further information, please read our Customer Eligibility Policy.

Ordering lead-time:
CONUS East Coast- 10-14 business days
CONUS Central/Mountain - 14-21 business days
CONUS West Coast- 21-28 business days
Hawaii & Alaska- 45-60 days
OCONUS- 90 to 150 days

NOTE: Kosher and Halal meals are not stocked and made to order. These lead-times are estimated, we do everything in our power to get meals to you asap. In addition to above lead-times, please take into consideration current food supply chain shortages, holidays, weather conditions/delivery & trans delays, surge in service requirements and other unforeseen circumstances. The KOSHER vendor is closed for Jewish holidays in Spring, Fall and end of year. The HALAL vendor is typically closed for a week at the end of summer and end of the year. The sooner you submit your order the better we can get you your meals by your RDD.

MREs will technically last longer than the 2yrs if maintain in good condition but given US FDA, no food has a stated shelf or expiration date. 2 years is set for liability and potential lawsuit protection reason. While it will lilkely be good for many years, it is policy to not have food of any kind sit on shelf for longer than that timeframe. Why do we provide humanitarian aid. We are a "WORLD LEADER". This comes with moral responsibility. First thing is first, we are a member nation of the UN and signer of the Geneva convention. We may not intentionally and knowingly send food that is poisoned or such in the guise of humanitarian aid. This is not something we will send. However, some individuals *MAY* have allergic reaction to an ingredient. There isn't a food out there that there isn't the possibility of an allergic reaction an individual may have or the severity of it. However, we may not knowingly and intentionally send food with poison in guise of humanitarian aid or similar such. It would also be a war crime to do that. Some people here on this forum has a distorted view of military.

Dropping MREs on a crowd that has literally been starved by us is as horrible a gesture as is building a port when the land roads could be opened up just as easily. And no, its not a gesture of goodwill, more of trying to get the muslim vote. But if you want to grasp at the technicality of what I said, go for it, and keep going at it. Meanwhile, see these by mainstream media (for those who do not believe citizen journalists)

Five killed and 10 injured in Gaza aid airdrop when parachute fails to open

Israeli road splitting Gaza in two has reached the Mediterranean coast, satellite imagery shows

When seen together, all of what the US is doing is cruel theater while aiding, abetting and supporting a genocide.

War is hell. Parachutes fail. Religion is used to get the foolish to do horrible things.

What I don’t understand, and never will understand, is how anyone from the “west”can justify the death or suffering of any innocent people in any conflict regardless of the dynamics. It’s the ultimate slap against the western, classical liberalist value of individualism - collective punishment and “collectivism” are cuts of the same ideological cloth, so anyone who supports such actions is an enemy of the American ideals that we ought be striving towards- including the US state and military complex itself who’s been engaged in various conflicts for decades upon decades that have led to massive
suffering.

All war is like that x-jla. It's horrible.

Chad, im sure you know that these "airdrops" and "port" are completely unnecessary and a cruel joke. All the US needs to do is order israel to let aid in. All war is terrible, but this one is aided and abetted by us. I do hope this is the end of the liberal democrats and can be replaced by actual progressives.

You clearly don't think war is terrible.  You support this war, just not Israel.  That's fine.  Just don't be dishonest about it.  

I'm sure if the US told Israel to let in aid 'or else' it would happen, eventually. Of course then Palestine and Hamas would go right back to trying to commit genocide against Israel (from the river to the sea). Then Israel would go right back to attempting genocide against Gaza. The religious dogma of each side will never allow the fighting to stop until one side wipes out the other. Not that they could stop though. The various governments that support each side won't let that happen.

The only people who actually pay for this war are the civilians who just want to live their lives together with their neighbors.  

Are you suggesting that all private sector clients are republican?

In my 20 plus year career I'd say the hard core republicans are the ones who try to no pay their fees to architects.

Plenty of flakes on the far left side too, Chad. Not sure if assholery is divisible by party lines

There is plenty of assholery. It's just that in my experience most people who like to dicker over fees and need to be prodded to pay them are far right republicans.

I've encountered the same thing as well. 

In a planning meeting I MAGA committee member disagree about building code and zoning requirements for a building. After I presented the relevant code and zoning requirements that contradicted their 'opinion' the MAGA literally threw up their hands and said 'there is no use discussing this with you if you're going to do that'.

These MAGAs are wasting everyone’s time and money while their town’s infrastructure and facilities literally falls
apart

It's pretty much NIBYism combined with a 'what do I get out of this mentality, and an unhealthy desire of 'I'll teach them to mess with me' type of revenge.

Blaming infrastructure decay on right wing populism is hilariously clueless.

What makes you say that?

I didn't mention infrastructure. I am blaming right wing populism for the MAGA people I've worked with thinking facts are a debatable opinion.

Blaming infrastructure decay on right wing populism is hilariously clueless.

not at all.. griping about taxes (...which is how infrastructure is funded...) has been a favorite in the republican playbook for decades. now it's just taken a freshly moronic turn.

The deeper issue is spending priorities. In Seattle, where the roads are so hilariously bad that you can literally see the city limit in the pavement when you cross it from areas outside the city and the citizens generally support taxes for public services, the City Council and Mayor have over the years spent vast amounts of tax revenue on stuff other than upgrading and maintaining infrastructure. This is not a problem limited to just Seattle. It's severe and endemic nearly everywhere in our society: throwing away vast amounts of money on graft patronage, useless featherbedding projects, and moral crusades while our core infrastructure decays away to nothing. Right-wing populism generally tends to be a reaction against that overwhelming waste and corruption (much in the same ways as left-wing populism, though in different modes). Sometimes, that comes in the form of trying to starve the beast by cutting off its revenue, but the broader issue is the gross incompetence, bureaucratic indifference, wasteful irresponsibility, and venal corruption of local governments.

^what did i say about griping about taxes?

[Seattle] spent vast amounts of tax revenue on stuff other than upgrading and maintaining infrastructure.

it certainly appears like a lot when there is so little to begin with, especially after its all been allocated to the pentagon and the actual grifters, defense contractors. 

the u.s. has one of the lowest rates of taxation compared to other OECD countries (24%); perhaps that is the reason for your crumbling roads, not the allocating of bread crumbs.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.or...

gwathorn - none of us mentioned taxes, infrastructure, or spending priorities. The only thing any of us commented on was the ineptitude of MAGA's that think their opinions supersede facts.

@Chad - axonapopleptic's comment, third in this same thread, literally says "These MAGAs are wasting everyone’s time and money while their town’s infrastructure and facilities literally falls apart." And then square was complaining about complaints over taxes. Go back and read what is written above. That was what I was responding to.

facts are facts. Interpretations of facts are opinions. The problem is everything anyone says are opinions so that is where it is debatable. The problem isn't that MAGA thinks it is all debatable. The problem is for a variety of reasons because they are mostly uneducated on everything but whatever their narrow focus of education they chose. They choose to not accept what the facts and data says. They don't accept things like science. Of course, they can reject the interpretation of the IPCC interpretation of the facts itself as it is presented. That can be fair. Anyone may. The problem is they don't agree with the interpretations. They disagree with the interpretation and so they disagree with the facts. Why? They are people whose belief is everything is a conspiracy. They think the facts are altered or the manner of the testing process is flawed. They assumed the information is all flawed. First, we don't see exactly how they did the test or the actual instrument readings. We see compiled reports after the results of data collection had been made and analyze and assume they been doctored or altered. Their theory of conspiracy is scientifically plausiable on a technical level but they don't speak of the intent. Why would the scientists alter the data? Why would they do it? What powerful and compelling reason would they do that? Why? Because they would do it. They lack ethics and principle so they think everyone is like them. They think their ideological oppositions are just like them and willing to be underhanded as they are themselves. The problem is they don't understand why they are wrong or why their opposition would not necessarily doctor the data so that it shows what they want it to show. Sure, while an individual might have that unethical practice, they aren't all that way. If there was a scientific reading that is wrong, they would ferret out b.s. and recollect the data. Why? While individuals might be unethical. A whole global scientific community would not be. When you have thousands to tens of thousands of scientists from all over the world if not more, it would be very unrealistic to systemically doctor the factual data collected and recorded & incorporated into the reports. They think everything is a conspiracy and everyone is a conspirator. Really? They are talking about themselves. So how does this relate to Trump and MAGA. They are those people I am talking about in one instance but they are like that about anything they don't agree with. They morally lack the ethical spine and value system themselves so they are see the world is just like them but wouldn't that mean we shouldn't take the credibility of any one that is part of this MAGA bullshit? Why would or should they assume we are as ethically spineless as they are? Wow.... facepalm.

where is the proof of evidence of Biden being senile? If you are basing that on special counsel Hur's report then you might wnt to question that and look at the facts like actual deposition. Yes, he's probably not thinking quite thinking as quick as say a younger person in their 20s, 30s, or 40s with the high energy. Yes, Joe's an older person so he isn't as physically nimble as some 20-25 year old. Come on. Given he been through two life threatening aneuryms back in 1987 and still doing as well as he is. Senile is a colloquial phrase that infers a person has dementia or alzheimers or any number of memory based ailment. Medically speaking, every person over the age of 25 has some memory and brain processing decline even if indiscernable because 100% of the human population goes through some of that. It relates back to things like oxygen-blood levels that as people age past the biological peak which is between 18 and 28 as from that point, it is all downhill from that point but that rate of decline varies from person to person. Donald Trump has a lot of issues. He's undergoing aging as Joe is but he also has other psychological issues and he's not in the right stte of mind to be a President for a lot of reasons. While the Constitution does not define psychological and morals as an official disqualification because those are basis the founders assumed we the people would resolve with our vote but left only criterias that are easy to prove administrtively for disqualification. Age and birth for example. Section 3 of 14th Amendment based disqualifications can be administratively handled once a person is convicted of insurrection so a criminal verdict would be the proof that can be used by election officials to administratively determine consistently. The reason Joe is pretty much relying only on the democrats because the Republicans are substantially controlled by MAGA and they are terrorists. Plain and simple. They are terrorists with the same danger to the United States as Osama bin Laden. These people are bad people who are interested in destroying democracy and replace it with dictatorship. That is what they are. Those are people who are not able to be negotiated with. With Al'Qaeda, we just drop bombs on them and kill them. They are enemies of the United States and you can't just talk and negotiate with. It is just easier to put bullets in their heads or drop bombs and send guided missiles at them. Why should we waste time negotiating with assholes that have no intention of negotiating or rather talk about Hunter Biden's penis than actually do anything good for anyone. They are dysfunctional on purpose. That's their point. Do nothing. Be dysfunction and blame it on Joe Biden. Bullshit... bullshit... bullshit that comes of their mouths. Joe Biden at least is trying to do something good for many in the U.S. As for that Israel issue, Israel is a strategic and tactical ally. We will be in another war in the middle east in the next decade or so. This is because of countries like Saudi Arabia (when the crown prince becomes King), Iran, etc. We need Israel to bring troops and ground vehicles to the middle east when tht war happens from any one of these assholes in the middle east. Don't mistake that to mean everyone there are assholes but several of these countries are ruled by assholes to put it mildly. U.S. wnts to continue to have access to bringing U.S. troops and land vehicles into middle east to fight countries like Syria, ISIS factions in the area of the neighboring countries to Israel, etc. yet we also don't like that Israel is taking a genocidal approach. We don't supply them with arms, we don't have access to ground based assault into Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. when that time comes. So it;s a shit situation. We all agree on that it's a shit situation. we can't legally use our laser weapons to shoot at human beings. That violates Geneva convention which we are a signatory of it. We have certain apparatus in space that is for countering nuclear weapons which the laser weapons are among but not the only. Some of which are classified if sent will have kinetic impact damage equivalent of nuclear weapons. These can't be used for surgical precision like a laser could be like boiling a person's brain inside the skull without leaving scorch marks on the top of the head with the correct harmonics. However, this isn't necessarily a quick and instant

Laser weapons may not be used to blind people intentionally in combat. Use of laser isn't outright banned but how it is used can make it fall under a banned manner of use. Some lasers would be considered a form of incendiary. Some of the laws traces back to the early 1900s. Unnecessary suffering is a factor. A slow skilling would violate. Lasers aren't explicitly banned by the text explicitly citing laser. It is a legal issue that can ban its use. There is the benchmark of weapons not causing unfair and unusual punishment and agony. lasers are technically a form of incendiary which can range from burning the retina to vaporizing a person under extreme intense heat generated.

pandahut I’ve listened to a few podcasts with guests arguing that we don’t have free will and I can’t get into whatever headspace they are in that makes them feel confident asserting that. Like yeah, random shit happens all the time but that doesn’t mean my choice of what to have for lunch is predetermined by the universe, does it? And there’s no way to track back why a book falling off a shelf in Cambodia two weeks ago caused me to choose chef’s salad today, so since we can’t prove it, why not choose (heh) the simpler option that I can choose whatever lunch I feel like today?

Pandahut, are you suggesting Trump is not a senile senior citizen? Our options are shit, the better choice is clear though.

“I'm not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist here because I feel like in this scenario it's just the truth but how the hell did this country come to where it is where one thread can be yanked and all this shit falls apart.” I think it’s the opposite. The system has been insulating itself from falling apart, and it’s working better than ever. Unfortunately the part that it is preserving is the “deep state” and corporate oligarchy, and the thing it’s insulting itself from is Us via democracy.

Balkins I agree with you on everything. Both options for president are absolutely embarrassing for the US, one is just more dangerous for the country (by far).

Left or right, you will never get a political leader that goes against the wishes of the state and corporate elite. It’s not happening. They will take them down by any means necessary. RFK, Tulsi, Trump, Ron Paul, Bernie, doesn’t matter the ideological leaning. They will not all

*allow it.

You can have a grocery store full of bad choices that pander to your particular beliefs…but you’re not getting the permaculture farm. Once we understand this we will be less angry at each other and direct that anger to the state that’s been systematically stripping away liberties.

Between the two options that realistically has the chance of getting electoral college votes due to the two political parties allowed to get electoral college votes or ever would get them, I am choosing Joe Biden. Why? It isn't the best choice out there but out of the two, I am not voting for Trump who is outright more dangerous. 4 more years of Biden, we can live with and can in time begin a new slate of choices that would follow up after Biden. I hope that the GOP dumps Trump if he loses 2024 and not give him another opportunity in 2028. I hope he goes to prison if he is found guilty of crimes currently alleged. Joe Biden, albeit may be embarrassing to some degree is at least conducting himself to some degree that at least respects the office of Presidency to some degree. I am looking for keeping some democracy versus handing over this country to a profoundly bad and corrupt person who seeks to turn this country into a dictatorship. Yes, things are moving slower than desired but I have more faith and trust in Joe Biden than I do Donald Trump. Why? Joe is at least a respectable person who cares about other people. Donald does not. I can at least respectfully support Joe Biden to vote for him. I can't in good conscious even consider voting for Donald Trump. I appreciate Joe because he has been doing as much as he can to unf--- what Donald did and help to restore this country. He respected the office. I wouldn't waste votes on third-parties and such given the way our election system works. This isn't that they don't have good ideas. There is only two political parties that matters at all for presidential elections in the U.S. It is a two party system.

Are there better options, I hope to see in 2028 a good option for this country to follow up Biden and continue to improve our economy AND I do hope we can do more to address the problems in the Gaza and still maintain good relations with Israel despite Netanyahu.