I've know I've mentioned this before, but the community service requirement for IDP really pissed me off. I'd forgotten all about it until today.
I found out this morning that I passed my last exam, meaning 65 hrs of community service are the only thing between me and the license. (2 months worth of Saturdays) Not sure what this has to do with the health and safety of the public.
Forced "community service" should be reserved for catholic school students and drunks trying to avoid jail. I know I should have done it a long time ago, and I'll do it, but between work and parenting, time away from home is at a premium
Key phrase: "I know I should have done it a long time ago..."
Community service is something all professionals should do regardless if it's compulsory or not, it's for the betterment of yourself, and those in your community. Your tirade just makes you sound petty and lazy...
just FYI military service isn't considered volunteering. That personally pissed me off a little when I inquired they said because it is paid it doesn't qualify. As a parent of 3 little ones with only 6 days off a month I can understand how getting 65 hours in a lump will be a pain. Pick something that can be weekly and regular and it will probably go quicker than you think. Or take a week of vacation and go build a house for habitat for humanity. Win win on that one, field experience and volunteer hours.
Do any other "professions" require that you provide compulsory free labor to "the public" before you are admitted to the sect? Doesn't that volunteer requirement and the whole IDP load of garbage fall afoul of the 13th amendment? Involuntary? Who in their right mind would really volunteer for IDP?
AMENDMENT XIII
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
do yourself a favor and look up the definition of servitude and compare it to that of service before you spew more faux-constitutionally based arguments.
Maybe all interns and former-interns call up ol' Saul Goodman and his brother from Spinal Tap and get a big ol' class-action lawsuit against any-and-everyone that has ever required they "Volunteer" or do community service.
"Community Service" is an actual sentencing designation in the court system isn't it? Sounds a bit like it starts to pertain to that pesky part of ol' Amendment XIII: except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
So NCARB sentences you to X hours of Community service? Under what authority do they exert that power? And for what crime have you been duly convicted? Finishing a really expensive and time consuming education? GUILTY ! !
The complaint is about doing a minimal amount of public service and I am just pointing out that there are two individuals on this thread who apparently are too busy to do anything to earn their rights either as Americans or as Professionals.
Are either of these guys capable of designing an environment sensitive to the needs of a client when they have so little interest in serving their community?
I think the state law that requires IDP is telling you it's not voluntary.
I'm not against community service. However, I think it's something that you do because your mother tells you that you should, not because your profession "Requires" it. There's always a great call out against anyone offering "Unpaid Internships" - but what is this section of IDP other than a required portion of Unpaid Internship?
It's the profession indoctrinating its newest members into their valueless-ness. If your time is worth money - then your time is worth money. If it's not, it's not.
^understood, just a rather unfair comparison. Not everyone has to serve in the US military.
Personally, I've never understood military as serving the community directly, nor do I accept the hype shouted by those who feel it mandatory to remind everyone they once served and are therefore better because of it.
You can get 40 of the required hours completed through EPC. If you haven't used up your ability to use EPC for this, you should be able to knock that down a good bit.
If you haven't used EPC at all, then you should be able to reduce the 65 remaining hours to 15 hours by using EPC hours.
APPROVAL OF LEADERSHIP AND SERVICE Whenever possible, the individual certifying your Leadership and Service experience should be the person in charge of the activity at the organization. However, your IDP Supervisor or mentor can also certify the Leadership and Service experience. You may satisfy your leadership and service requirement in any combination of the following categories:
• Design Industry related (construction, arch services, planning & development) ex: Habitat for Humanity, mediator at City Planning charrettes
• Education related ex: critic at design review, ESOL teacher, participation in high school career day
• Strengthening of community ex: volunteering for food drives or soup kitchens
• Regulatory or professional organization ex: volunteering for AIA or USGBC, Boy/Girl Scouts
EPC is an option under additional opportunity to collect core hours up to 40 hours in each subject area provided you haven't maxed out the 600 hours that maybe used as noted below:
Additional Opportunities for Core Hours 40 HOURS MAXIMUM PER EXPERIENCE AREA 600 HOURS MAXIMUM You may earn a maximum of 40 core hours in each of the IDP experience areas by completing any combination of the following NCARB-recognized supplemental experience opportunities:
• CSI Certification: CCS & CCCA
• Community-Based Design Center/Collaborative
• Design Competitions
• Emerging Professional’s Companion (EPC)
• NCARB’s Professional Conduct Monograph
• Site Visit With Mentor
You may not earn more than 600 core hours through any combination of these qualifying supplemental experience opportunities.
EPC is the only one of the latter list that can be used for completing Leadership and Community Service requirement, if I recall correctly.
I am not saying that everyone should serve in the military. I do feel however, that citizens should do something in terms of some kind of public service. The peace corp, teaching English, a food bank etc. something, anything so that they have some skin in the game.
Is it really asking too much to have someone who wants to be a member of a profession that in some part serves the public to do some community service.
This attitude that it is equated with slavery, involuntary servitude or a court sentence is incomprehensible to me.
Apr 2, 15 12:34 pm ·
·
I called NCARB, I could use this to satisfy hours in this training area. Since I just started recently so it is within the 6 month reporting rule.
What if the intern's employer were still required to pay the intern, however the employer wasn't allowed to charge the client?
The Client would have to be some registered non-profit (eg. H4H). The Employer could write it off as a deduction, there's usually always "unbilled hours" somewhere in a project - it would really be an accounting trick). The intern would still get their $18.00/hr and everyone wins. Or at least nobody loses. Or doesn't lose as much.
sheesh - I'm pissed about being forced to do community service - not particularly upset about the number of hours. If it was a 1 hr req. I'd still be pissed, but prob. not waste time with it on the internets. My complaint is that I don't see how involuntary community service will make me a better person (I assume that is NCARB's intent) nor do I even think that is within their prevue. I don't want to spend my remaining lunch on this so just a few points:
- Lots of name calling, I hope after I'm done with this I'm such a good person that I don't feel the need to call anonymous people names
- Value of time - it is very easy to mandate that someone else do something - would ncarb be eager to simply raise the price of admission $2,000? (80 hrs x $25 per hour)
- Better citizens, or disgruntled citizens after being forced to do something they wouldn't otherwise do
- what if I was just barely scraping by and needed to work 3 jobs to make ends meet?
- what if I had 6 kids and needed to get home before my wife has a breakdown?
- more likely, what if I'm working 60 hrs a week at my real job and don't have time to "donate."
- "Part of the community" not sure exactly what this means. I don't want to be a part of a totalitarian community (extreme I know)
crux of the issue is "Power" and "Control" my time is mine and unless there is a powerful argument it is mine to distribute. I don't think fuzzy feelings about creating a more engaged citizenry are a good reason.
I did a ton of volunteering in high school and through my church growing up (16 years of catholic school, including college) the only thing I learned from it is that authority figures love flexing their authority
I do appreciate some of the ideas - I'm a part of my university's alumni board and will hopefully get my remaining hours through the remaining events of this semester.
Because we all know helping our community, and being a responsible citizen has nothing to do with being an architect. I'm glad not to live in your community.
shuellmi: Maybe you ought to revisit NCARB's rationale for this requirement:
IDP TASKS AND KNOWLEDGE/SKILLS
PRACTICE MANAGEMENT LEADERSHIP AND SERVICE Minimum Leadership and Service Experience: 80 Hours (Maximum Allowed: 320 hours)
DEFINITION: These tasks will increase your understanding of the people and forces that shape society, as well as augment your professional knowledge and leadership skills. Interns will find that voluntary participation in professional and community activities enhances their professional development. Community service does not have to be limited to architecture-related activities for you to receive these benefits.
TASKS AT THE COMPLETION OF YOUR INTERNSHIP, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO: • Develop leadership skills to enable successful practice • Identify and articulate leadership traits required to maintain a successful and healthy office environment in an architecture firm • Contribute your talents in a community-based organization to improve the quality of life
KNOWLEDGE OF/SKILL IN • Community leadership/civic involvement • Creativity and vision • Entrepreneurship • Ethics and integrity • Interpersonal skills (e.g., listening, diplomacy, responsiveness) • Managing quality through best practices • Mentoring – teaching others • Personal time management • Service to the profession (e.g., AIA, NCARB) • Supervising • Team building, leadership, participation
Personally, I think these are reasonable expectations -- my sense is that they're primarily aimed at helping architects become more effective and influential in both their firms and their communities. Practice isn't just about "what you know" -- it's also about how well you are able to use that knowledge to achieve better buildings and communities.
Easiest hours to get filled. I served on a board of a non-profit--time that was very well spent. I still volunteer all the time, it is healthy. Maybe sometimes I do too much, then it is not healthy. anyways.
Your post about leaving all the hours to the end like you did can serve as a warning for others to not do it that way. The idea is not to build resentment.
Apr 2, 15 2:00 pm ·
·
shuellmi,
You could even use EPC as well so you can wrap it up. technically, I spent enough hours volunteering to have fulfilled the requirements several times over and even with 50% discount for what I spent over the past 5 years would still complete the required hours but I'll start reporting them anyway not that it doesn't matter. Oh well... I can complete the 80 and possibly all of the 320 or so hours without much trouble. Might as well get on the ball on this so all I need is 1 year of working for an architect. I'm taking into account the removal of the elective hours that will be coming into effect.
Apr 2, 15 2:04 pm ·
·
shuellmi,
You might even retroactively report hours that qualify for Leadership and Service within the last 5 years but longer than the normal 6+2 month reporting rule at 50% credit.
That can help reduce those hours. Just find the people who can vouch for the hours spent and report them.
One of my main concerns with leaving a traditional arch firm for a primarily engineering firm is losing touch with the arch. community. I'd planned on becoming active in the AIA and more active in the local alumni board to counteract that isolation anyway, just don't like the forced part.
Is this a real conversation, or is it part of April Fools Day? I keep checking the date but it keeps telling me the same thing...
stone, it's nice to see you! I don't think you've been around much lately, and that was an excellent post (while the remainder of this thread may be a good indication of why one would choose *not* to be around here much lately.)
Oh, and shuellmi: Congratulations on passing the exams! Woohoo! It's a huge deal and a major accomplishment. Just finish those community hours - use them for networking opportunities and to grow as a professional - and ride off into the sunset with your license in hand!
IDP Complaint
I've know I've mentioned this before, but the community service requirement for IDP really pissed me off. I'd forgotten all about it until today.
I found out this morning that I passed my last exam, meaning 65 hrs of community service are the only thing between me and the license. (2 months worth of Saturdays) Not sure what this has to do with the health and safety of the public.
Forced "community service" should be reserved for catholic school students and drunks trying to avoid jail. I know I should have done it a long time ago, and I'll do it, but between work and parenting, time away from home is at a premium
sounds like it will be really good for you
Key phrase: "I know I should have done it a long time ago..."
Community service is something all professionals should do regardless if it's compulsory or not, it's for the betterment of yourself, and those in your community. Your tirade just makes you sound petty and lazy...
Volunteer at a local highschool drawing class or pop-in for end of term crits?
IDK, volunteer hours were optional for me.
The pain the pain.
1 1/2 weeks of public service. The indignity of it all.
Look asshole you are not a veteran and have done nothing so far to earn your rights as an American.
Shut the fuck up and do it.
Shiiiioooooot. Get er done.
Does your child have a school? Maybe some of those greedy monsters educating your family could waste some of your precious time.
just FYI military service isn't considered volunteering. That personally pissed me off a little when I inquired they said because it is paid it doesn't qualify. As a parent of 3 little ones with only 6 days off a month I can understand how getting 65 hours in a lump will be a pain. Pick something that can be weekly and regular and it will probably go quicker than you think. Or take a week of vacation and go build a house for habitat for humanity. Win win on that one, field experience and volunteer hours.
I know military service does not count for IDP. I was just pointing out to the OP that 65 hours is paltry compared to what some others have done.
Do any other "professions" require that you provide compulsory free labor to "the public" before you are admitted to the sect? Doesn't that volunteer requirement and the whole IDP load of garbage fall afoul of the 13th amendment? Involuntary? Who in their right mind would really volunteer for IDP?
AMENDMENT XIII
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
You're two easy months from success. While it may be annoying, it's not worth the vitriol you're accumulating, n'est–ce pas?
^
do yourself a favor and look up the definition of servitude and compare it to that of service before you spew more faux-constitutionally based arguments.
clever, though.
Servitude: the state of being a slave or completely subject to someone more powerful.
Intern: the state of being completely subject to someone or an entity (NCARB) more powerful.
Your comparison to slavery is risible.
Not slavery, involuntary servitude.
idp isnt slavery its just a protectionist racket designed to provide cheap labor to old people who cant figure out how to work Revit.
Whatever.
Are you a veteran?
What does being a vet have anything to do with IDP?
Shuellmi,
Finish it with EPC?
I think we can figure out how to clear those 65 hours in a heart beat.
Maybe all interns and former-interns call up ol' Saul Goodman and his brother from Spinal Tap and get a big ol' class-action lawsuit against any-and-everyone that has ever required they "Volunteer" or do community service.
"Community Service" is an actual sentencing designation in the court system isn't it? Sounds a bit like it starts to pertain to that pesky part of ol' Amendment XIII: except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
So NCARB sentences you to X hours of Community service? Under what authority do they exert that power? And for what crime have you been duly convicted? Finishing a really expensive and time consuming education? GUILTY ! !
^ technically its voluntary. no one is forcing you to do idp. thats the difference.
The complaint is about doing a minimal amount of public service and I am just pointing out that there are two individuals on this thread who apparently are too busy to do anything to earn their rights either as Americans or as Professionals.
Are either of these guys capable of designing an environment sensitive to the needs of a client when they have so little interest in serving their community?
I think the state law that requires IDP is telling you it's not voluntary.
I'm not against community service. However, I think it's something that you do because your mother tells you that you should, not because your profession "Requires" it. There's always a great call out against anyone offering "Unpaid Internships" - but what is this section of IDP other than a required portion of Unpaid Internship?
It's the profession indoctrinating its newest members into their valueless-ness. If your time is worth money - then your time is worth money. If it's not, it's not.
I did some building plans for my local HfH. Easy community service, that didn't require I get off my ass for anything complicated.
^understood, just a rather unfair comparison. Not everyone has to serve in the US military.
Personally, I've never understood military as serving the community directly, nor do I accept the hype shouted by those who feel it mandatory to remind everyone they once served and are therefore better because of it.
http://www.ncarb.org/Publications/~/media/Files/PDF/Guidelines/idp_guidelines.ashx
You can get 40 of the required hours completed through EPC. If you haven't used up your ability to use EPC for this, you should be able to knock that down a good bit.
If you haven't used EPC at all, then you should be able to reduce the 65 remaining hours to 15 hours by using EPC hours.
15 hours of volunteering is easy to get done.
http://epcompanion.org/
APPROVAL OF LEADERSHIP AND SERVICE Whenever possible, the individual certifying your Leadership and Service experience should be the person in charge of the activity at the organization. However, your IDP Supervisor or mentor can also certify the Leadership and Service experience. You may satisfy your leadership and service requirement in any combination of the following categories:
• Design Industry related (construction, arch services, planning & development) ex: Habitat for Humanity, mediator at City Planning charrettes
• Education related ex: critic at design review, ESOL teacher, participation in high school career day
• Strengthening of community ex: volunteering for food drives or soup kitchens
• Regulatory or professional organization ex: volunteering for AIA or USGBC, Boy/Girl Scouts
EPC is an option under additional opportunity to collect core hours up to 40 hours in each subject area provided you haven't maxed out the 600 hours that maybe used as noted below:
Additional Opportunities for Core Hours 40 HOURS MAXIMUM PER EXPERIENCE AREA 600 HOURS MAXIMUM You may earn a maximum of 40 core hours in each of the IDP experience areas by completing any combination of the following NCARB-recognized supplemental experience opportunities:
• CSI Certification: CCS & CCCA
• Community-Based Design Center/Collaborative
• Design Competitions
• Emerging Professional’s Companion (EPC)
• NCARB’s Professional Conduct Monograph
• Site Visit With Mentor
You may not earn more than 600 core hours through any combination of these qualifying supplemental experience opportunities.
EPC is the only one of the latter list that can be used for completing Leadership and Community Service requirement, if I recall correctly.
I am not saying that everyone should serve in the military. I do feel however, that citizens should do something in terms of some kind of public service. The peace corp, teaching English, a food bank etc. something, anything so that they have some skin in the game.
Is it really asking too much to have someone who wants to be a member of a profession that in some part serves the public to do some community service.
This attitude that it is equated with slavery, involuntary servitude or a court sentence is incomprehensible to me.
I called NCARB, I could use this to satisfy hours in this training area. Since I just started recently so it is within the 6 month reporting rule.
..."nor do I accept the hype shouted by those who feel it mandatory to remind everyone they once served and are therefore better because of it."
It's called guilt...
Service, either military or otherwise, DOES make for a better citizenry.
What if the intern's employer were still required to pay the intern, however the employer wasn't allowed to charge the client?
The Client would have to be some registered non-profit (eg. H4H). The Employer could write it off as a deduction, there's usually always "unbilled hours" somewhere in a project - it would really be an accounting trick). The intern would still get their $18.00/hr and everyone wins. Or at least nobody loses. Or doesn't lose as much.
?
sheesh - I'm pissed about being forced to do community service - not particularly upset about the number of hours. If it was a 1 hr req. I'd still be pissed, but prob. not waste time with it on the internets. My complaint is that I don't see how involuntary community service will make me a better person (I assume that is NCARB's intent) nor do I even think that is within their prevue. I don't want to spend my remaining lunch on this so just a few points:
- Lots of name calling, I hope after I'm done with this I'm such a good person that I don't feel the need to call anonymous people names
- Value of time - it is very easy to mandate that someone else do something - would ncarb be eager to simply raise the price of admission $2,000? (80 hrs x $25 per hour)
- Better citizens, or disgruntled citizens after being forced to do something they wouldn't otherwise do
- what if I was just barely scraping by and needed to work 3 jobs to make ends meet?
- what if I had 6 kids and needed to get home before my wife has a breakdown?
- more likely, what if I'm working 60 hrs a week at my real job and don't have time to "donate."
- "Part of the community" not sure exactly what this means. I don't want to be a part of a totalitarian community (extreme I know)
crux of the issue is "Power" and "Control" my time is mine and unless there is a powerful argument it is mine to distribute. I don't think fuzzy feelings about creating a more engaged citizenry are a good reason.
I did a ton of volunteering in high school and through my church growing up (16 years of catholic school, including college) the only thing I learned from it is that authority figures love flexing their authority
Good grief.
I do appreciate some of the ideas - I'm a part of my university's alumni board and will hopefully get my remaining hours through the remaining events of this semester.
shuellmi: Maybe you ought to revisit NCARB's rationale for this requirement:
IDP TASKS AND KNOWLEDGE/SKILLS
PRACTICE MANAGEMENT
LEADERSHIP AND SERVICE
Minimum Leadership and Service Experience: 80 Hours (Maximum Allowed: 320 hours)
DEFINITION: These tasks will increase your understanding of the people and forces that shape society, as well as augment your professional knowledge and leadership skills. Interns will find that voluntary participation in professional and community activities enhances their professional development. Community service does not have to be limited to architecture-related activities for you to receive these benefits.
TASKS
AT THE COMPLETION OF YOUR INTERNSHIP, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO:
• Develop leadership skills to enable successful practice
• Identify and articulate leadership traits required to maintain a successful and healthy office environment in an architecture firm
• Contribute your talents in a community-based organization to improve the quality of life
KNOWLEDGE OF/SKILL IN
• Community leadership/civic involvement
• Creativity and vision
• Entrepreneurship
• Ethics and integrity
• Interpersonal skills (e.g., listening, diplomacy, responsiveness)
• Managing quality through best practices
• Mentoring – teaching others
• Personal time management
• Service to the profession (e.g., AIA, NCARB)
• Supervising • Team building, leadership, participation
Personally, I think these are reasonable expectations -- my sense is that they're primarily aimed at helping architects become more effective and influential in both their firms and their communities. Practice isn't just about "what you know" -- it's also about how well you are able to use that knowledge to achieve better buildings and communities.
BAH - Stone you make a good argument
Easiest hours to get filled. I served on a board of a non-profit--time that was very well spent. I still volunteer all the time, it is healthy. Maybe sometimes I do too much, then it is not healthy. anyways.
Your post about leaving all the hours to the end like you did can serve as a warning for others to not do it that way. The idea is not to build resentment.
shuellmi,
You could even use EPC as well so you can wrap it up. technically, I spent enough hours volunteering to have fulfilled the requirements several times over and even with 50% discount for what I spent over the past 5 years would still complete the required hours but I'll start reporting them anyway not that it doesn't matter. Oh well... I can complete the 80 and possibly all of the 320 or so hours without much trouble. Might as well get on the ball on this so all I need is 1 year of working for an architect. I'm taking into account the removal of the elective hours that will be coming into effect.
shuellmi,
You might even retroactively report hours that qualify for Leadership and Service within the last 5 years but longer than the normal 6+2 month reporting rule at 50% credit.
That can help reduce those hours. Just find the people who can vouch for the hours spent and report them.
One of my main concerns with leaving a traditional arch firm for a primarily engineering firm is losing touch with the arch. community. I'd planned on becoming active in the AIA and more active in the local alumni board to counteract that isolation anyway, just don't like the forced part.
Is this a real conversation, or is it part of April Fools Day? I keep checking the date but it keeps telling me the same thing...
stone, it's nice to see you! I don't think you've been around much lately, and that was an excellent post (while the remainder of this thread may be a good indication of why one would choose *not* to be around here much lately.)
Oh, and shuellmi: Congratulations on passing the exams! Woohoo! It's a huge deal and a major accomplishment. Just finish those community hours - use them for networking opportunities and to grow as a professional - and ride off into the sunset with your license in hand!
Also, this: Calvin and Hobbes is always appropriate (not sure if this image will post large enough to read...)
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