After recently finding out that I have completed the ARE, I am only some paperwork away from calling myself a licensed architect! Seeing as I busted my ass to knock out all the tests over the course of the past year, I feel pretty eager to bust through my boss' door and immediately ask for that raise, but before doing that, I'd like to hear some advice from those who have already been there.
Here is my situation: I have just over 3 years of professional experience, with about 1.5 of those coming with my current firm. For what it's worth, we are a mid-sized (50 person) commercial firm in Denver, and after having one of our best years ever, I am certain they can afford to increase my pay. I feel I'm already outperforming my 'Intern II' title as I've managed a couple small projects on my own while doing all the drawing, CA, and client management. My current salary is $52k, no overtime pay.
I'm looking for insight from anyone and everyone. If you're already licensed, what did you receive for a pay increase? If you're not yet licensed, what would you expect to receive? I'd especially like to hear from those who run a firm. Personally, I don't see my job duties drastically changing anytime soon, so is it fair to ask for a $5,000 raise? Logic tells me no, but I feel entitled to something after completing this monumental task. I've heard stories about people getting a 20% raise, and I've heard stories about people getting nothing, so I am at a loss for what to expect. Please, weigh in and let me know what you think!
I received a 20% raise upon license (19% technically) but the raise was not a result from a sudden demand on my part but a careful orchestration which begun months prior at an earlier performance review. I let them know I would be seeking an increase upon completion of IDP and we ended the meeting with a promise to continue the discussion a later date. When my license was granted, I wasted no time in scheduling a meeting.
You need to know if your bill-rate will increase as per your new title, if it does, then your office will charge clients more, therefore they could afford a raise. If however they are still charging clients an intern/tech fee and your responsibilities remain the same, it's hard to justify simply because you have a new frame decorating your cubicle wall.
I know nothing of the Denver market but $52K per year with only 3y exp sounds decent enough. Perhaps leverage this for more responsibilities that would justify a higher wage once you've accumulated more than 1.5y at the firm.
Congrats. This is a major milestone that lasts a lifetime. Employments come and go.
With a license, know that you are now qualified for a whole bunch more job openings than you were as an intern. If the raise at your current gig doesn't come through or is paltry, you could discretely check out some of the new opportunities that are open to you. It sounds like you are a fairly high-value person if you are running small jobs and interacting with clients.
The biggest jumps in pay I ever achieved came via switching employers.
3 years experience is still pretty green. Just because you are young gun that rushed to get your license doesn't really make you any more valuable to the company you are working for. I'm sure they only insure one or two stamps and your license just means they have to pay somebody more money to do the same work all of a sudden. Something to think about.
That being said, it can't hurt to ask...
Congrats on getting it done though....some people wait far to long to take their exams...I never understand these architects that wait like 20 years to get licensed...
congratulations. my previous (large) firm had a policy of a one-time $1000 payment for licensure. it also made me eligable for a promotion with a 15-20% salary increase, though that didn't go through until the next annual performance review cycle. before you push for a raise ask if there is a policy. and after that I'd frame the discussion as looking for a promotion based on your work and increasing responsibilities. it might not happen right away if your office normally does promotions during a certain time of the year.
52k? That sucks....but only 3 years so license means practically nothing unless you can take all the clients and figure out how to run a mid size firm.....assume you have a nice piece of paper to frame until you start pulling in side work.....I doubled and got side work
Quadrupling to 10 times......you realize the partners probably charge 300-400 an hr right? You can make half that on side....but again you have 3 years in a 50 person firm...that practicality means nothing. Sorry.
Thank you all for the congratulations and great feedback, even though it wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear. Makes sense though-- if my day to day duties aren't changing, why should my paycheck? I suppose the long-term benefits of being licensed are far more important than the immediate payout. I am interested in putting feelers out to see what I am worth with other firms, although I can't see myself leaving my current company since I plan to go work abroad within the next couple years. On that note does anyone if licensed architects are more coveted than interns abroad? I'm looking into Australia
Lateral move within the state you have a license in, not Australia. The value in a license is its application locally if you use it. If all you did was pass exams but never take on the entire liability and oversight and coordination you should have when doing project under your license, then all you have is a certificate. At your stage in your career, what you do will bring value.
lateral move is sometimes the only way to get what you are worth....
Why? Is it because the firm you are at will never look at you the same way? Is it because everyone is so focused on looking at all your mistakes that you've made during your "intern" period that it has blinded everyone from seeing how far this freshly licensed person has come? Why does it have to be this way? Just wondering...
Bulgar it's actually more simple. Within the firm you will get raises that are standard and over time and proportional....so you may be able to get a $3k raise for 1 or 2 more years or you could go try and find work elsewhere and ask for $10k more, and you may just get it.
some firms do, but my understanding is that most don't because people don't like to switch jobs and the firm can save themselves a ton by underpaying someone for years.
case in point, I just found out that a friend of mine, unlicensed but extremely smart, wrote the firm's BIM manual, 7 years exp. and a job captain was making about $42k at the firm she'd worked at her entire professional career.
I didn't want to say what I make now, but when I told her that 5 years ago I made 10k more than her she was pretty pissed.
In her case she quit because she had a kid and working wasn't worthwhile for her anymore. Perhaps if they'd paid her appropriately she'd still be there, but i think most firms would rather save the 50k in this case and look for a new employee.
I think bob bornson wrote about this phenomenon on thelifeofanarchitect.com once too.
Another firm may be doing really well vs the firm you are at and are willing to pay. Again nothing to do with your own experience directly. Although most firms would prefer someone with 3-7 years since that means the candidate has been for the most part thoroughly educated in the profession and no retraining necessary on simple things like "how to draw a drawing". So the leaps happen typically after you have done some entry level time 1-3 at minimum, but it's hard to get that proportion in increase at your current firm because if they give you $10k increase on a $35 salary, although probably justified, you would from then on out expect same type of increases and others in firm possibly more senior may expect same percentage increase. Again practically nothing to do with you as an individual.
I once commandeered a whole project, for 16 months based on a bad proposal with a stupid low fee which was not well thought out (xxxk fee, that I delivered with 2 part-time drafters who couldn't draw straight lines and a bit of supervision from a great PM). Without me there, the project would have flunked, and badly so. It was the sort of job where I cut my teeth on city regs and ended up becoming the sort of savant you come to when you have certain types of questions.
I delivered the project, on time.
Got a superbly crappy raise.
Interviewed elsewhere.
Got an offer and turned in my 2 weeks notice.
My then-current firm refused to match the salary but offered a bonus based on staying with the firm, but at the end of the year. They justified by stating that more senior people would be upset by seeing someone "at my level" above their pay-rate.
That was the last straw.
I was out. Instantly. Spoke to them about making that 2 week notice a 3 day notice, and was amicably out by Friday.
Compensation based on anything other that quantifiable performance milestones is why architecture is overpopulated, and why people like me are counting their pennies until we can get out of standard firms.
that perspective doesn't make any sense to me olaf. not that it isn't true or whatever, just that i don't get it.
like they said in shuellmi's link, pay people what it costs to replace them. that would help to disincentivize people who leave because it's the only way to improve their professional standing
on the other hand, it might make sense that the powers who be don't want to pay any more than they have to, since labor is a huge expense. partly because many employers really don't want to lay anyone off during slow times, so they don't want to make a commitment to that increased expense. also greed.
or, you could say that you were hired to be a young, low level production staff. 10 years later, you were still hired to be young, low level production staff. other people were hired for the higher positions. the firm didn't change, your job didn't change - it's you, not them
or, the powers that be could just have other things to worry about. you're, of course, concerned about your own welfare. even in the best case scenario, 'the man' is concerned about the well-being of all employees, so it might be hard for them to balance your concerns with those of others. part of that could be that someone else will get jealous if you're paid what you're worth, though i think that's a pretty lame excuse. it could be that there is only so much money to go around, and they would rather throw the money at someone with a disabled kid or something. they might just suck at managing. the ideological assumptions here suggests it isn't that 'the man' just doesn't give a shit about you. it's a fairly good possibility that's the case.
and lastly, i would suggest the possibility that many people just aren't worth near what they think they are. lots of unjustified egos in this profession. it's not just the cost to replace you, but maybe that you're easily replaceable.
Found this in DesignIntelligence's Compensation, Bonus, and Benefits Survey: 69% of firms increase compensation upon licensure. 12% give a 10-14% increase while 35% give a 5-9% increase. 2% give a lump sum increase.
Null and Curtkram that is what happens when spreadsheets fog your judgement..........I got really good advise when I started by still the highest paid salary architect I have ever met and that was late 90's rates (not a partner) 150k+. Salary for a firm he didnt have ownership in. If you are partner you should make a lot more....He said - you want a raise - QUIT. That blew my mind considering I was trying just to get a job and learn, but 4 years later after quitting the day I became a project manager with staff , i went corporate, increased significantly and then found out the kids with masters were getting 20k more than me who had less experience. So i quit again.....been hourly ever since for whoever I work for if not myself. I think you either get a big cut on the fee if you do what Null did or get paid for every hour you spend on it. Going hourly was also useful in helping me define my fees for my projects..............I felt at the corporate firms the unfair pay compensation between employees was most drastic. Small firms the pay was less, but fair. So I think the spreadsheet takes over once you get large. Also value is weird sometimes, a great bullshitter is valuable in certain cases............if you look at your employers the same way they look at you when hiring, a paycheck or a spot to fill it may be easier to make more money, but sooner or later you want to be interested in what you do and you may find your co-workers great people to work with, when that happens getting a good increase isn't that important, and before you know you start bringing in work accidently.....
olaf, i agree with your assertion that quitting seems to be the way to progress your career. i was just trying to find the reasoning for that, if there is any reasoning.
so what happens if you start bringing in work accidentally? no change unless you quit and take them somewhere else right?
curtkram they either offer you partnership or, yes - you QUIT.
it seems like its all about give and take. they start taking too much you quit. rarely will they start giving you too much, but if they do, you should probably threaten to quit and they might give you more or tell you to fuck-off....
I equate all this to drugs. If you do work that no one else can do, the only way to make your point often is threaten going elsewhere. Sometimes those in charge don't know what they have until its gone, so I think it's worth trying to make this point.
you can do this many ways. one, you can go on vacation for 2 weeks and hope no one can pick up your slack. two, you can just work 40hrs or less, lose interest and start moonlighting and let them say - "hey, what's up, the quality of work is going down hill" then negotiate
but then there are plenty who think anyone is replaceable, and given the competitive nature of this profession especially at entry level, this is pretty much true - they will probably just tell you to fuck-off
at 10-20 years, you're usually not replaceable, so it's a different game then.
I negotiated an almost 50% raise by threatening to quit, not a fine moment but it worked. Principal approved it right away but I didnt get it, the accounting people in another office in another state did not approve it which was b.s. Ended up with a 25% raise instead, not bad but left scars of resentment for making the threat. I wouldn't recommend what I did (threatening to quit) but I would ask for a $2-5,000 raise if I were you. You could probably get more by quitting and going elsewhere, it's true.
OP here to let you know the outcome of all this. Finally had my post-licensure performance review last week, after a frustrating 3 months of asking for it. Fortunately it went pretty well. They gave me a 10% bump, bringing my 52k salary up to $57k. I'd say I'm pretty happy with this considering I have just 3 years of experience. I would have preferred to get $59k or $60k, but I realized I do have a great amount comfort with where I'm at. I can stroll into work at 9, work with a fantastic well-oiled team, work no overtime, and go about my day with little stress, so there is certainly some value to that.
Firm I was with small, with a reputation for solid, tho unspectacular work. I was with the firm Principal for 13 years. I was irreplaceable. I generated my own fees and worked pretty independently. I was a partner in a real estate company with the Principal and another senior PM. This RE company built and developed our office property and rental suites.
Problem was, this was going nowhere... There Principal would not move the firm forward in any measurable way. We were not winning jobs that brought in good fees or allowed for good design. It was run-of-the-mill, architect as necessary evil type work. We were an amoeba, we got bigger and consumed more work but we never got smart, got selective or got rich. I was stuck in the upper $40 plus health insurance bennies worth about another $10-12k.
I quit one day- blew everybody's mind. Went to work for a startup GC immediately got a 50% raise. That job turned out to be a mess but from their I went to a Door Company. I got another 10% step up in pay; All I do is read specs; make fun of architects and their shitty drawings, and count doors all day. I hired away another one of my old firms PMs to help me at the door company. No overtime, no stress, everyone goes home at 4:30. Nobody calls me on the weekend.
I was writing a response yesterday, but that got lost in the sea of browsers at home.
I am one of those compulsive job-hoppers. I get the same itch after having been in the same place for a few months. To say that having had 5 jobs in the last 5 years hasn't been beneficial to my career as a whole would be lie.
But you have to know what you're getting into. I got a pat in the back when I got licensed. That's it. Looking at my credit card debt, and realizing that I had no fun-money for the next few months because I had carried over 3k of test taking expenses on a no-apr credit card expecting to get at the end of the ordeal.
Every switch is a new set of expectations. Every time I quit, it was because even though I was pulling 9-5 hours, getting all my work done and some more, I was getting utterly bored; and every time I've joined a new firm, I've started by pulling 45 to 50 hour weeks to start. The result of this string of hops has been that I am now making over 2 times what I made when I first moved here.
I admire the OP's rationale for staying and asking for more. I thought about doing the same many times, but I am weirdly perceptive about things like hierarchies and politics. Every time I thought about doing what the OP did, it always came down to politics. While those I work with would have no issues with promoting me to a pretty high official title based on the responsibilities I took on, there were always people on the outside that would make that promotion impossible. It always came down to merit vs. age/years of experience.
I do have a feeling that my most recent hop might be the kind that will last more than a few years; I'm at the top of the earnings ladder for my years of experience (actually, well above the ladder), and I dont think there's another firm that will be able to afford me for a couple of years, but that's how things go. You just eventually get to a point where the only viable option is to work for yourself and stop relying on anyone other than clients to pay you what you're worth.
First, that's not bad money in Denver right now. Cost of living is low, and you should be socking away a big chunk of that to finance your own firm/ retirement/ etc...
As far as negotiating raises goes... you should present it as not just getting your license, but all the tasks and responsibilities you have taken on in the last year. If you can give them metrics on hours vs. projected hours on projects you managed or worked on, and they come in under, you have an even more solid argument. If not, just quit and move.
I am making almost exactly the same as you with ~ 2 years experience, months away from a license, and I will easily have enough $$$ to retire or start my own firm by the time I am 40, and that's assuming that my side projects don't grow into something first.
It all depends on if you want your own firm or you want an employer. There are benefits and drawbacks of both.
Just so you know, Denver is not a cheap place to live. There are cheaper places to live in Denver, but they are cheap and far from the hip places in Denver.
Denver is a very competitive market for any job nowadays, everyone wants to move there for the fresh air and liberal mind set. Kinda like the San Francisco of the Rockies.
Mar 16, 15 8:35 am ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
Freshly licensed-- what to expect for a raise?
After recently finding out that I have completed the ARE, I am only some paperwork away from calling myself a licensed architect! Seeing as I busted my ass to knock out all the tests over the course of the past year, I feel pretty eager to bust through my boss' door and immediately ask for that raise, but before doing that, I'd like to hear some advice from those who have already been there.
Here is my situation: I have just over 3 years of professional experience, with about 1.5 of those coming with my current firm. For what it's worth, we are a mid-sized (50 person) commercial firm in Denver, and after having one of our best years ever, I am certain they can afford to increase my pay. I feel I'm already outperforming my 'Intern II' title as I've managed a couple small projects on my own while doing all the drawing, CA, and client management. My current salary is $52k, no overtime pay.
I'm looking for insight from anyone and everyone. If you're already licensed, what did you receive for a pay increase? If you're not yet licensed, what would you expect to receive? I'd especially like to hear from those who run a firm. Personally, I don't see my job duties drastically changing anytime soon, so is it fair to ask for a $5,000 raise? Logic tells me no, but I feel entitled to something after completing this monumental task. I've heard stories about people getting a 20% raise, and I've heard stories about people getting nothing, so I am at a loss for what to expect. Please, weigh in and let me know what you think!
If your boss fires you, you could go work for Real Architecture in Denver... they pay well.
I received a 20% raise upon license (19% technically) but the raise was not a result from a sudden demand on my part but a careful orchestration which begun months prior at an earlier performance review. I let them know I would be seeking an increase upon completion of IDP and we ended the meeting with a promise to continue the discussion a later date. When my license was granted, I wasted no time in scheduling a meeting.
You need to know if your bill-rate will increase as per your new title, if it does, then your office will charge clients more, therefore they could afford a raise. If however they are still charging clients an intern/tech fee and your responsibilities remain the same, it's hard to justify simply because you have a new frame decorating your cubicle wall.
I know nothing of the Denver market but $52K per year with only 3y exp sounds decent enough. Perhaps leverage this for more responsibilities that would justify a higher wage once you've accumulated more than 1.5y at the firm.
Congratulations on imminent licensure!
Congrats. This is a major milestone that lasts a lifetime. Employments come and go.
With a license, know that you are now qualified for a whole bunch more job openings than you were as an intern. If the raise at your current gig doesn't come through or is paltry, you could discretely check out some of the new opportunities that are open to you. It sounds like you are a fairly high-value person if you are running small jobs and interacting with clients.
The biggest jumps in pay I ever achieved came via switching employers.
3 years experience is still pretty green. Just because you are young gun that rushed to get your license doesn't really make you any more valuable to the company you are working for. I'm sure they only insure one or two stamps and your license just means they have to pay somebody more money to do the same work all of a sudden. Something to think about.
That being said, it can't hurt to ask...
Congrats on getting it done though....some people wait far to long to take their exams...I never understand these architects that wait like 20 years to get licensed...
congratulations. my previous (large) firm had a policy of a one-time $1000 payment for licensure. it also made me eligable for a promotion with a 15-20% salary increase, though that didn't go through until the next annual performance review cycle. before you push for a raise ask if there is a policy. and after that I'd frame the discussion as looking for a promotion based on your work and increasing responsibilities. it might not happen right away if your office normally does promotions during a certain time of the year.
52k? That sucks....but only 3 years so license means practically nothing unless you can take all the clients and figure out how to run a mid size firm.....assume you have a nice piece of paper to frame until you start pulling in side work.....I doubled and got side work Quadrupling to 10 times......you realize the partners probably charge 300-400 an hr right? You can make half that on side....but again you have 3 years in a 50 person firm...that practicality means nothing. Sorry.
Thank you all for the congratulations and great feedback, even though it wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear. Makes sense though-- if my day to day duties aren't changing, why should my paycheck? I suppose the long-term benefits of being licensed are far more important than the immediate payout. I am interested in putting feelers out to see what I am worth with other firms, although I can't see myself leaving my current company since I plan to go work abroad within the next couple years. On that note does anyone if licensed architects are more coveted than interns abroad? I'm looking into Australia
lateral move is sometimes the only way to get what you are worth....
Tammuz that doesn't even make sense in a workplace setting, but thanks for trying.
Bumping. Still waiting to get my paperwork and make it official. Any other insight? Thanks all.
Lateral move within the state you have a license in, not Australia. The value in a license is its application locally if you use it. If all you did was pass exams but never take on the entire liability and oversight and coordination you should have when doing project under your license, then all you have is a certificate. At your stage in your career, what you do will bring value.
lateral move is sometimes the only way to get what you are worth....
Why? Is it because the firm you are at will never look at you the same way? Is it because everyone is so focused on looking at all your mistakes that you've made during your "intern" period that it has blinded everyone from seeing how far this freshly licensed person has come? Why does it have to be this way? Just wondering...
Bulgar it's actually more simple. Within the firm you will get raises that are standard and over time and proportional....so you may be able to get a $3k raise for 1 or 2 more years or you could go try and find work elsewhere and ask for $10k more, and you may just get it.
I still don't get it... why can't you get a 10k raise at the same firm?
some firms do, but my understanding is that most don't because people don't like to switch jobs and the firm can save themselves a ton by underpaying someone for years.
case in point, I just found out that a friend of mine, unlicensed but extremely smart, wrote the firm's BIM manual, 7 years exp. and a job captain was making about $42k at the firm she'd worked at her entire professional career.
I didn't want to say what I make now, but when I told her that 5 years ago I made 10k more than her she was pretty pissed.
In her case she quit because she had a kid and working wasn't worthwhile for her anymore. Perhaps if they'd paid her appropriately she'd still be there, but i think most firms would rather save the 50k in this case and look for a new employee.
I think bob bornson wrote about this phenomenon on thelifeofanarchitect.com once too.
http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/golden-handcuffs-a-lesson-learned/
found it....
Another firm may be doing really well vs the firm you are at and are willing to pay. Again nothing to do with your own experience directly. Although most firms would prefer someone with 3-7 years since that means the candidate has been for the most part thoroughly educated in the profession and no retraining necessary on simple things like "how to draw a drawing". So the leaps happen typically after you have done some entry level time 1-3 at minimum, but it's hard to get that proportion in increase at your current firm because if they give you $10k increase on a $35 salary, although probably justified, you would from then on out expect same type of increases and others in firm possibly more senior may expect same percentage increase. Again practically nothing to do with you as an individual.
Olaf, that's the problem.
I once commandeered a whole project, for 16 months based on a bad proposal with a stupid low fee which was not well thought out (xxxk fee, that I delivered with 2 part-time drafters who couldn't draw straight lines and a bit of supervision from a great PM). Without me there, the project would have flunked, and badly so. It was the sort of job where I cut my teeth on city regs and ended up becoming the sort of savant you come to when you have certain types of questions.
I delivered the project, on time.
Got a superbly crappy raise.
Interviewed elsewhere.
Got an offer and turned in my 2 weeks notice.
My then-current firm refused to match the salary but offered a bonus based on staying with the firm, but at the end of the year. They justified by stating that more senior people would be upset by seeing someone "at my level" above their pay-rate.
That was the last straw.
I was out. Instantly. Spoke to them about making that 2 week notice a 3 day notice, and was amicably out by Friday.
Compensation based on anything other that quantifiable performance milestones is why architecture is overpopulated, and why people like me are counting their pennies until we can get out of standard firms.
that perspective doesn't make any sense to me olaf. not that it isn't true or whatever, just that i don't get it.
like they said in shuellmi's link, pay people what it costs to replace them. that would help to disincentivize people who leave because it's the only way to improve their professional standing
on the other hand, it might make sense that the powers who be don't want to pay any more than they have to, since labor is a huge expense. partly because many employers really don't want to lay anyone off during slow times, so they don't want to make a commitment to that increased expense. also greed.
or, you could say that you were hired to be a young, low level production staff. 10 years later, you were still hired to be young, low level production staff. other people were hired for the higher positions. the firm didn't change, your job didn't change - it's you, not them
or, the powers that be could just have other things to worry about. you're, of course, concerned about your own welfare. even in the best case scenario, 'the man' is concerned about the well-being of all employees, so it might be hard for them to balance your concerns with those of others. part of that could be that someone else will get jealous if you're paid what you're worth, though i think that's a pretty lame excuse. it could be that there is only so much money to go around, and they would rather throw the money at someone with a disabled kid or something. they might just suck at managing. the ideological assumptions here suggests it isn't that 'the man' just doesn't give a shit about you. it's a fairly good possibility that's the case.
and lastly, i would suggest the possibility that many people just aren't worth near what they think they are. lots of unjustified egos in this profession. it's not just the cost to replace you, but maybe that you're easily replaceable.
hopefully people are becoming less replaceable than they used to be! i think we are starting to have a hard time finding people
Found this in DesignIntelligence's Compensation, Bonus, and Benefits Survey: 69% of firms increase compensation upon licensure. 12% give a 10-14% increase while 35% give a 5-9% increase. 2% give a lump sum increase.
Null and Curtkram that is what happens when spreadsheets fog your judgement..........I got really good advise when I started by still the highest paid salary architect I have ever met and that was late 90's rates (not a partner) 150k+. Salary for a firm he didnt have ownership in. If you are partner you should make a lot more....He said - you want a raise - QUIT. That blew my mind considering I was trying just to get a job and learn, but 4 years later after quitting the day I became a project manager with staff , i went corporate, increased significantly and then found out the kids with masters were getting 20k more than me who had less experience. So i quit again.....been hourly ever since for whoever I work for if not myself. I think you either get a big cut on the fee if you do what Null did or get paid for every hour you spend on it. Going hourly was also useful in helping me define my fees for my projects..............I felt at the corporate firms the unfair pay compensation between employees was most drastic. Small firms the pay was less, but fair. So I think the spreadsheet takes over once you get large. Also value is weird sometimes, a great bullshitter is valuable in certain cases............if you look at your employers the same way they look at you when hiring, a paycheck or a spot to fill it may be easier to make more money, but sooner or later you want to be interested in what you do and you may find your co-workers great people to work with, when that happens getting a good increase isn't that important, and before you know you start bringing in work accidently.....
olaf, i agree with your assertion that quitting seems to be the way to progress your career. i was just trying to find the reasoning for that, if there is any reasoning.
so what happens if you start bringing in work accidentally? no change unless you quit and take them somewhere else right?
curtkram they either offer you partnership or, yes - you QUIT.
it seems like its all about give and take. they start taking too much you quit. rarely will they start giving you too much, but if they do, you should probably threaten to quit and they might give you more or tell you to fuck-off....
I equate all this to drugs. If you do work that no one else can do, the only way to make your point often is threaten going elsewhere. Sometimes those in charge don't know what they have until its gone, so I think it's worth trying to make this point.
you can do this many ways. one, you can go on vacation for 2 weeks and hope no one can pick up your slack. two, you can just work 40hrs or less, lose interest and start moonlighting and let them say - "hey, what's up, the quality of work is going down hill" then negotiate
but then there are plenty who think anyone is replaceable, and given the competitive nature of this profession especially at entry level, this is pretty much true - they will probably just tell you to fuck-off
at 10-20 years, you're usually not replaceable, so it's a different game then.
I negotiated an almost 50% raise by threatening to quit, not a fine moment but it worked. Principal approved it right away but I didnt get it, the accounting people in another office in another state did not approve it which was b.s. Ended up with a 25% raise instead, not bad but left scars of resentment for making the threat. I wouldn't recommend what I did (threatening to quit) but I would ask for a $2-5,000 raise if I were you. You could probably get more by quitting and going elsewhere, it's true.
OP here to let you know the outcome of all this. Finally had my post-licensure performance review last week, after a frustrating 3 months of asking for it. Fortunately it went pretty well. They gave me a 10% bump, bringing my 52k salary up to $57k. I'd say I'm pretty happy with this considering I have just 3 years of experience. I would have preferred to get $59k or $60k, but I realized I do have a great amount comfort with where I'm at. I can stroll into work at 9, work with a fantastic well-oiled team, work no overtime, and go about my day with little stress, so there is certainly some value to that.
Firm I was with small, with a reputation for solid, tho unspectacular work. I was with the firm Principal for 13 years. I was irreplaceable. I generated my own fees and worked pretty independently. I was a partner in a real estate company with the Principal and another senior PM. This RE company built and developed our office property and rental suites.
Problem was, this was going nowhere... There Principal would not move the firm forward in any measurable way. We were not winning jobs that brought in good fees or allowed for good design. It was run-of-the-mill, architect as necessary evil type work. We were an amoeba, we got bigger and consumed more work but we never got smart, got selective or got rich. I was stuck in the upper $40 plus health insurance bennies worth about another $10-12k.
I quit one day- blew everybody's mind. Went to work for a startup GC immediately got a 50% raise. That job turned out to be a mess but from their I went to a Door Company. I got another 10% step up in pay; All I do is read specs; make fun of architects and their shitty drawings, and count doors all day. I hired away another one of my old firms PMs to help me at the door company. No overtime, no stress, everyone goes home at 4:30. Nobody calls me on the weekend.
I was writing a response yesterday, but that got lost in the sea of browsers at home.
I am one of those compulsive job-hoppers. I get the same itch after having been in the same place for a few months. To say that having had 5 jobs in the last 5 years hasn't been beneficial to my career as a whole would be lie.
But you have to know what you're getting into. I got a pat in the back when I got licensed. That's it. Looking at my credit card debt, and realizing that I had no fun-money for the next few months because I had carried over 3k of test taking expenses on a no-apr credit card expecting to get at the end of the ordeal.
Every switch is a new set of expectations. Every time I quit, it was because even though I was pulling 9-5 hours, getting all my work done and some more, I was getting utterly bored; and every time I've joined a new firm, I've started by pulling 45 to 50 hour weeks to start. The result of this string of hops has been that I am now making over 2 times what I made when I first moved here.
I admire the OP's rationale for staying and asking for more. I thought about doing the same many times, but I am weirdly perceptive about things like hierarchies and politics. Every time I thought about doing what the OP did, it always came down to politics. While those I work with would have no issues with promoting me to a pretty high official title based on the responsibilities I took on, there were always people on the outside that would make that promotion impossible. It always came down to merit vs. age/years of experience.
I do have a feeling that my most recent hop might be the kind that will last more than a few years; I'm at the top of the earnings ladder for my years of experience (actually, well above the ladder), and I dont think there's another firm that will be able to afford me for a couple of years, but that's how things go. You just eventually get to a point where the only viable option is to work for yourself and stop relying on anyone other than clients to pay you what you're worth.
First, that's not bad money in Denver right now. Cost of living is low, and you should be socking away a big chunk of that to finance your own firm/ retirement/ etc...
As far as negotiating raises goes... you should present it as not just getting your license, but all the tasks and responsibilities you have taken on in the last year. If you can give them metrics on hours vs. projected hours on projects you managed or worked on, and they come in under, you have an even more solid argument. If not, just quit and move.
I am making almost exactly the same as you with ~ 2 years experience, months away from a license, and I will easily have enough $$$ to retire or start my own firm by the time I am 40, and that's assuming that my side projects don't grow into something first.
It all depends on if you want your own firm or you want an employer. There are benefits and drawbacks of both.
Just so you know, Denver is not a cheap place to live. There are cheaper places to live in Denver, but they are cheap and far from the hip places in Denver.
Denver is a very competitive market for any job nowadays, everyone wants to move there for the fresh air and liberal mind set. Kinda like the San Francisco of the Rockies.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.