if you have a Barch why are you going to get an March? go work

but if you have the money to spend on college, go to IIT.

Cooler and Exciting? i'm so tired of telling college students that College is only one step, and Professors cannot teach you everything in the Limited 5 year Barch, or especially a 2 Year March.

As a student you are also responsible for your own self education young man.

My advise is if you have a Barch, go to work. or if you insist on being a degree collector, get an MBA.

good luck to you

Thank you for your advise, LiveLoad.

Yes, I have a 4 yr Barch, and 2 yrs work experiences in Taiwan.
Because I haven't really been to both schools (merely browsed their student's work on the Internet), it's really hard to say which one is better for my later work.

Does anyone have studied in IIT or NJIT could share some personal experiences about their studios or courses? I'll be very very grateful!!

Kuan C,
In the USA a 4 yr bachelor degree is not the equivalent of a 5 year Professional Bachelor of Architecture. Trust me here a Barch is a lot more expensive.

But there is good news NCARB does have an internship program so even with a 4 year Bechelor of science in Architecture degree you can still work towards a license.

Getting back to your question yes I am an IIT alumni. I really feel that i got what i put into it, i was lucky enough to study with professors who really knew how to build a successful project. The High Rise studio program is the best in the world. The Space planning advanced studio with Prof. Takeuchi, is the best too, we also have Visual training a course that was brought to IIT by Bauhaus professors. The High Rise Masters program may have been altered because of the retirement of Prof. Sharpe. IIT was very flexible. While i was there I saw young cool hip professors for all the design-y students which i suspect you might like.

David Sharpe retired?

Does Bill Baker still stop in?

Well he is actually retired, but was recently named Prof. Emeritus for the college of Architecture. Most of his old students like me still keep in touch with him and i suspect that he will keep his open door policy.

As to Bill Baker, I think he only showed up on the coat tail end of the Fazlur Kahn Era. Don't think he stopped in while i was there.

He was around a lot in the 90s.

Is Elnimieri still there?

I like David but he designed the same building with a lot of his students for 25 or 30 years. Or did that change? Like a lot of IIT classes, they were more construction classes than design studios.

Which else construction classes and design studios are highly recommended for grad student in IIT? someone said Jeanne Gang doesn't really teach there, just hold a name on IIT's faculty list. Is that truth?

Well, Mr. Baker never was a professor at IIT, with all due respect to his achievements at SOM.

Make,
did you ever take any studios with Prof. Sharpe? I won't tell you what I learned with him in his studios, because only people that took his classes would understand.

"Like a lot of IIT classes, they were more construction classes than design studios." spoken like an ignoramus.

by that statement you show you didn't appreciate your time at IIT. Did you stay there for 5 years or a couple of years in the masters program? Why did it take you that long to figure out you didn't like it there?


Make college is just one step in your education, We are all responsible for our own self education.

College professors can't teach you in a few years what will take you a lifetime to learn. They cant hold you by the hand all your life.

If you knew anything about Mies, you would know what he meant by "not creating a new architecture every Monday" or " don't create problems in order to solve them"

I'm so tired of hearing all you so called architects Blasting Mies and his followers.

Why are you still talking about Mies then? Why cant you go find your own way if you think you are so much smarter?

Make i don't think you are qualified to speak about Mies, or build an exhibition about Mies. Were you one of those students that just walked in to talk with Prof. Sharpe but never took his studio? There were so many of those.

Well getting back to you Kuan,

Design and Construction methods along with structures is thought the first 3 years of the undergrad program, and in the 3 year masters program.

At the Masters level, you are already expected to know what kind of architecture philosophy you subscribe to, and as such you are expected to take courses that will help you research what you are interested in. Advisors will help you. Selecting Thesis Advisors is your responsibility last time I checked. If you did want to focus on Structures then you take Structures Courses, its up to you. If you are a designy student then pic a designy professor and these days at IIT you wont have a problem finding those kind of professors, A lot of professors come from Cornell, Harvard.

Kind of like Mr. Make, its funny how these crazy professors talk shit about Mies, but they still want to go teach at IIT.

Kuan where ever you go remember that you are responsible for your own self education. College is just one step. College does not make or break you. ok
good luck

I went to NJIT for my M.Arch, mainly for it being in-state and very affordable, as well as personal reasons like not wanting to travel too far at that time in my life. I am not too sure what you are looking for in your education though, Kuan?

If you are looking for a name professor, probably dont go to NJIT.

I'd say that you can get pretty much anything you want out of your education at NJIT, you will just have to be very, very proactive in getting it. It has the facilities and resources to offer a very good education if you want to take advantage of it, but its not something necessarily offered up on its own


Let me know if you have any specific questions about NJIT that i might be able to help with

Thanks for ur keen analysis, LiveLoad. I will keep it in mind.

Thanks, Marmkid. My intention is really simple. After I finished my M.Arch, I'd like work towards a license in the U.S. So I'm looking for a school which can help me make this achievement.

I wanna know how extreme proactive ppl do at NJIT? What is it like? Like standing up all night everyday?

In addition, I heard NJIT's faculty connection is relatively strong because NJIT shares professors from Cooper-Union, Columbia, etc. But what is the real situation there?

Am I easily to get an internship opportunity there?

Thanks again.

Liveload,

Thanks for calling me an ignoramus.

Classy.

Baker spent a bit of time in the 90s advising some of the students.

No one was blasting anyone.

Kuan

I am not up to date on the current professors, it has been 4 years since i graduated. I imagine you can find out though rather easily.

I would say both schools will probably prepare you adequately for eventually getting your license. That has little to do with your education and more to do with actual work experience. NJIT prepared me fine i guess for that, as i am about halfway through my exams

Extremely proactive people can do very well at NJIT, as i imagine they probably would at IIT as well. They staying up all night every day thing is really just a myth and not necessary. Those who pull constant all nighters tend to be the people who dont do anything during the day, so their day just starts at night.


I cant comment on the internship opportunities there. I took summer classes one summer and then studied abroad the next summer, so i did not look for any internships. Being close to NYC cant hurt though, so i imagine if you develop a relationship with any of your professors, the internship possibilities are definitely there.

Make, when you say:
"I like David but he designed the same building with a lot of his students for 25 or 30 years. Or did that change? Like a lot of IIT classes, they were more construction classes than design studios."

Thats a mouthful ! wow

- you like David
First of all its not David its Professor Sharpe. We are good friends but I would have to say that he is not there to be liked by you or anyone else he is there to teach you.
Unless you are his colleague or his relative

- you complain about his designs
This shows you don't understand what he thought everyone,
You say they are his designs WRONG again first of all we say "Building Art" not arbitrary design.
second you are contradicting yourself because you admit there is an element of design (word we dont use) and then you say that IIT is not a design college.

-he did the same buildings for 25 or 30 years
You dont understand he -teaches Principles not just construction techniques
Second Wrong on the time he has been teaching since the early sixties, he must be doing something right.

the same stuff?
sounds like you dont understand anything about Prof. Sharpe or what Mies was talking about.

-or did that change you say

Good Principles don't change ever.

- then you call IIT's Arch Program a Construction Course.

If that is not an insult then what is that supposed to mean?
Construction is one part of Architecture.

And yes Dr. Elnimeiry is still there thank goodness

Bill Baker was there, but he was basically an intern in the 80's learning from IIT's program that must tell you something about our "construction Courses"

Are you an IIT alumni?

as a non IIT grad, I associate the school with detailed wall sections.

do you really think its that offensive to refer to him as David? I remember refering to all my professors by their first name when i was in grad school.


while in school, I agree, if a professor prefers to be called Professor So&So, that is completely appropriate. But when you are an alum and not a student anymore?

unless that is just common with David Sharpe? I admit to not having gone there or know him, so i have no real frame of reference

just curious is all


not sure who follows basketball or not, but its like how some coaches seem to be called "coach" by everyone, sportscasters, writers, players, etc, even when they are not a coach anymore.
Like all fellow broadcasters for some reason refer to Avery Johnson as "coach", though he coached only one team for like 2 or maybe 3 years.

Liveload,

Please stop this rampage now... you're making a bad name for the rest of us that went to IIT. I don't think make meant any harm in his comment, maybe just put it the wrong way. It is true that in the undergrad program at IIT especially, they focus on DETAILING and MATERIALS quite a bit. Those things are important to learn how to build a building that can be CONSTRUCTED, yes.

The great thing about grad school at IIT right now is that you can have whatever experience you want, though. If you want to hone your conceptual thinking, broad design ideas, etc. take a studio with Prof. Conger-Austin or Dirk Denison. If you're into sustainability, take a studio with Martin Felsen or even Peter Beltemacchi (old-school real-deal sustainability) and talk to Harry Mallgrave. If want to learn how to detail, there are plenty there that can help with that.

The resources are there. It is what you make of it.

There's some great stuff happening with high-rise design right now at IIT. The Spring Show has some fantastic stuff and I recommend that the prospective student visit Crown Hall and see for him or herself.

Those are the high rises that show the promise of the future. David Sharpe's class was mainly geared towards making people experienced in current practice. Ideas like natural ventilation or exploring novel structural systems were rejected in favor or work that could land you a job at a firm doing development-driven stuff. It was more like going to a community college to take construction classes to learn how to design subdivisions than it was in taking a high rise design studio somewhere else. I many not be putting it right but I think that's an important distinction.

Musicman is right. Things have really changed there and the variety is refreshing and healthy. The high rise stuff there is very exciting and interesting.

So, Musicman,
did you read Makes last post? he just called IIT a community college. is that insulting enough for you ?

In retrospect i dont feel insulted because make, clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. It would be like getting upset about what the mobocracy thinks, but musicman if you think that my matter of fact reply was equivalent to going on a "rampage" then i plead guilty.

Kuan,
I want to apologize to you for this distraction. I should be used to people insulting IIT, seems that there is a kind of international dislike of IIT. I think every college has its merits and not so good side. College is what you make of it.

But my advice still stands, You are responsible for your own self education. Read books, and im not talking about architecture manifestos.

So, go build something good ok.

LL, i dont know why you are getting so worked up over this

Make gave his opinion of IIT, which wasnt all 100% positive, but based on his experience there

What exactly is wrong with that?

He also gave some praise to the school, though you seem to ignore that

Marmkid,

first of all im not worked up.

second of all this post is for Kuan.

lastly lets just say that IIT is divided into two groups, but that is a whole other story. thats all i will say.

ok my mistake, reading your posts gave me the impression that you were getting worked up over it, i.e. caring whether someone is refered to by their name or their title

I just found it to be a curious reaction is all, no offense was intended


I did not go to IIT nor know anyone who did, so i dont know what these 2 groups are, though i imagine we have one from each posting in this thread if what you are saying is acurate



and if this post is just for Kuan, why are you wasting time writing specifically to make about how he refers to "David Sharpe"?


It sounds like petty school politics to me, which i guess is good for Kuan to hear when considering that as his school

I know what you are trying to do and its not going to work. marmkid

I just asked an honest question concerning the posts here, given my unfamiliararity with IIT or David Sharpe

I apologize if i struck a nerve or a sore point among groups at IIT


I dont know what you are refering to when you claim to know what i am "trying to do"


but given the discussion so far and your remarks, i will assume it is some petty school politics from IIT and something i could care less about so i will leave it at that. I thought there was actually something to talk about but i am clearly wrong in that regard

you want to see some petty comments? you're in the right website

Its also the right site for vague petty comments and then not even bother explaining them

I don't know if that's worse, but its definitely annoying

LL, i wish you'd hush a bit you're making IIT grads look paranoid and aggressive!

IIT did/does have some dissent among its professor ranks. There are a collection of Profs who prefer the original Miesian curriculum and teaching methods. There are those (generally younger) who prefer newer more flexible methods.

Donna Robertson, dean of the college of architecture is a fantastic dean and is leading the arch school very well. In my opinion, she has been instrumental in IIT's revival.

Pay a visit to the school if you're interested, you'll find a very wide variety of studios, just as LL described.

I graduated from IIT recently, so i feel pretty safe in saying the college of arch is on a clear upward swing both in quality and popularity among Chicago offices. IIT in general is on an upward swing, the campus is improving, the endowment is healthy, scholarships are available, and as far as private schools go, its not even markedly expensive.

Sorry if i gave you or anyone a paranoid and aggressive impression. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is very interesting to note that no one is taking notice of the aggression shown towards me or IIT though.

I will say my piece on this again. good luck Kuan.

For the kindly blessing, thank you so much, LiveLoad.

musicman, I search those professors while you mentioned in the last post. My favor is Dirk Denison. His work is very fresh and impressive! How about Jenny Gang? Her studio recently cooperates with the firm which I work for to run a national competition in Taiwan. So, I'm wandering maybe I'm able to be tough by her in IIT. Does she teach in grad school?

make, One more question, which prof. are recommended for the high rise design in IIT? Peter Land? But I have no related experience to design a high rise building, is that ok? Do they teach BIM in March progrm?

lletdownl, do you take both Miesian curriculum and newer methods' courses in your grad? After you begin to work the office at Chicago, which one is helping you more and how?

I'd be very appreciated that someone can answer these questions.

Kuan,

Jeanne Gang has really been blowing up lately since her completion of the Aqua tower. Not sure how the current economic situation has affected her office's workload, but when I was in school she was quite busy and didn't offer many studios. I did see her occasionally on crits, etc. (never had her on one of mine, though). As far as I know she only teaches grad studios, but I'm not 100% sure.

Dirk Denison is a pretty busy guy too, but he did teach a grad studio each semester I was there (w/ occasional absences to take care of his own projects) I never had him as a professor either, only on a crit, but he was super insightful and appropriately blunt.

Also to consider: I'm not sure what it's like at NJIT, but there really is quite an international student body at IIT. It seemed like close to half of the students were from outside the U.S. I always felt that cultural / language differences were understood and appreciated.

Plus, Chicago kicks ass!

Kuan those are all good question, id also second musicman's observation that IIT has a substantial international population. As a white male, i was virtually a minority at our graduation ceremony, which as you might not know, is pretty rare in the states...

As for the curriculum issues, the Miesian style of studio teaching is much more focused in the first few years of undergrad. So your masters programs will only be influenced by it in so much as you'll be in studio with profs or students who studied that way.

There are still prof's doing grad studios concerned with classic methods. Much more oriented towards understanding in detail your design decisions. Which means actually figuring out the sections and details. A practice which is incredibly helpful both for your understanding of REAL architecture and a very positive boost to your employability

Peter Land is an absolutely amazing prof. I credit him with single handedly restoring my love of architecture in my 4th year of undergrad when my patience and confidence were running very thin. His high rise studio definitely allows you to explore anything you could imagine, he is incredibly knowledgeable and flexible. If you decide IIT is right for you, he is the 1 prof that you really must take a studio with. The design process in his studio is amazing. You go to studio and sketch and talk and sketch and talk until at the end of the semester youve produced something amazing.

One last thing thats interesting about IIT's MArch program, which im not sure is the same elsewhere, is that there will be undergrads in your studios. 4th and 5th year undergrads take the same studios as the grad students which CAN make for a great mix of backgrounds and experience levels. Some might scoff at this concept... but i think other IIT undergrad students would agree, they more than hold their own with the grads.

hope this was helpful...

i also second musicman when he says chicago kicks ass. it really is a gorgeous city... ive been here 8 years now and am often still in awe of it

i think another factor that can help your decision, if not completely make your decision for you

being not from the US, where exactly do you want to settle down and work after graduating? Chicago or NYC? They both seem to be good places for international students to settle, so it really becomes a matter of preference for you.

I didnt go to NJIT for the proximity to NYC, but i could see that being a major draw if that is somewhere someone wants to settle down and work (not for me). I am not too familiar with Chicago anymore, as it has been years since i have been there, but it also seems somewhere pretty good to settle down and work.

But, unless i am mistaken, they are vastly different places to live and work. That could help your decision, if you have a preference between the 2 cities.


For what its worth because i dont think anyone has mentioned it yet, NJIT has a good % of international students as well, though i dont think as high as IIT. That is going back a couple years, so i might not be completely up to date

Ya, Chicago is really awesome!

musicman, may I ask which studios you had at IIT and how about it? As an international student, unfortunately, I'm merely able to recognize some professors on the IIT's faculty list. I really want to know more about them before my program begin if you don't mind! Thanks!

There's about 1000 students in IIT's Arch program now. It was about 300 when I was there. It used to be 40 to 50% international. IIT has great facilities and Chicago has the same great food as in NY for much less money. In fact, Rick Bayless cooked for the President of Mexico and the USA this week and he said something that Louis Sullivan could have said about Architecture 100 years ago:

“when we are doing something very special it no longer has to be European or gussied-up American but from the heritage of a whole bunch of people in our country who have never been in the spotlight.”

He couldn’t resist taking a jab at French cooking, which for generations was the only cuisine appropriate for state dinners. “French chefs come to the kitchen and are amazed at how complex Mexican food is, the layering of flavors,” Mr. Bayless said. “The food speaks for itself. It’s not being whipped into submission like a French chef would do.”

This is the kind of attitude that made Chicago the Architecture capital of the USA in the first half of the 20th century.

And you can eat lunch at his digs for $20 with tax and tip. Try that with another James Beard award winning place in NYC!

True that on the food... Frontera rocks.

Kuan, I just sent you a loooooooong email.

Got it! musicman, thank you sooooooo much!!!!

make, your metaphor sounds thought provoking, but I just partly understand it. Did Louis Sullivan mean architecture in Chicago is just like the complex Mexican food?

Kuan,

I think there has always been an independent spirit here in Chicago that allows stuff to happen that wouldn't happen on the coasts. Sullivan's work or Bayless's food happened here because of this.