I think I'm close to getting a job in the Pre-Design dept. at a major financial firm. I've heard that jobs like this pay better than a job at an architectural firm but I don't know how much better. At an architectural firm I would get paid around $70,000 for having 8 years experience, a license and LEED and NCARB certification and working in NYC. Do you think I should ask for 10% or 20% more? I have no idea but I definitely want to start off on the right level - especially after reading this article:
I'm looking for the percentage difference in salaries between working for an architectural firm and working for the client within their company (which happens to be a major financial firm). Recession or pre-recession.
I have been told that working on the client end of things is more lucrative in general. (I know this isn't always the case - I had a friend that worked for British Airways and got about the same as he would have gotten working for an architectural firm but he did get discount airline tickets:) I know definitely that it's true for this firm but I don't know how much because I can't get a percentage...
This isn't a firm specific question and there are many financial firms and other companies that hire internal architects. I just want to know what the percentage difference is between working for a firm and working for a client as an in-house architect in a financial firm or another prosperous company.
hoodles: you're probably asking the wrong people - I doubt there's anybody here who works in a job like the one you describe. What you need to do is locate some folks who are doing the job you are trying to obtain and see what information they can provide on this question. Perhaps the employer will allow you to meet with some of the people in the department you're trying to join.
I actually got an answer emailed to me last night.
Here it is:
Hi!
that's what I thought I wanted to check.
I'd ask for around $90,000.. more if you feel you have really competitive experience. I have a friend who took a job like that for one of the big box retailers (in siting and programming) and about 12 years of experience as an architect, for about $110,000, and, frankly, I think that bid was low compared to what he might've gotten. I work in the industry, with about 15 years of experience doing mostly programming work and pre-design development strategy for urban scale sites, and I make more than my big box friend.
Moving to "the client side" can be more lucrative than private practice but the degree to which you do better depends on your duties and responsibilities. Earlier in my career I worked for a real estate development firm. My compensation there was about 25% higher than the best offer I received from an architecture firm. BUT I was not doing architecture at that firm. I had just received my MBA and I was hired in as a development manager - very different duties and responsibilities.
Admittedly, that was a long time ago, but I tend to feel that the spread won't be quite so large if the duties and responsibilities you hold in the new firm are comparable to the role you would have in an architecture firm.
Ask yourself: "why would they pay me a lot more than I could earn in an architecture firm? why would I be worth more to this firm than I would be worth to an architecture firm?"
ok. that's good advice but what do you think of the post above where the person is describing a salary at a big box store company? It sounds like there are opportunities for higher salaries out there.
GSA has a job post for a Program Manager job in San Francisco. Requires license as Arch. or PE and extensive staff supervision experience and willingness to travel. Pays 95K - 120K with Federal benefits. Go for 6 figures!
This brings back memories of a surgeon who was in my Revit class two years ago. He was the only non-architect there. He wanted to become an architect but knew at that time (mid 70's) that he wasn't going to able to maintain his family on an architect' s salary. Now he has 6 residential project for private clients and one developer which he does after work and on weekends. He has more projects than my former employer and delivers in BIM while most firms in this areas are fully 2d oriented. He tends to make an additional 200K yearly with these side projects while he earns over 400k working for the hospital. His client are willing to pay him $300 dollars an hour, because he is after all a surgeon even though he's doing architecture. Yet at the same token, his clients are not willing to pay that amount to a trained professional architect. According to those clients, If a surgeon with a few cad classes can run a practice at night, delivers on time and within budget, indicates that either he's a genius or the practice of architecture is really really easy. After all, non of us can remove an appendix on weekends.
Morel of the story: ask for at least 100k or more.
seriously, ask for between $90 and $110k. Go as low as $80 if you're concerned and it's not a huge bank (as in a regional savings bank as opposed to Chase or HSBC).
That is the applicable range for a financial services professional, in a back office capacity, at a big bank, with 8 to 12 years experience. They will assign you to an employment grade, not to a profession, once you get there, which means that you will be on-par with their MIS people, their accountants, their business analysts, their facilities managers, etc.
I have been told that working on the client end of things is more lucrative in general.
Sure it is, but as quizzical noted, your duties working for the client will be different than traditional architecture.
I've worked with in-house Architects at several major companies from people in the grocery business to home improvement chains to major banks and healthcare companies. Ahh the joys of being a developers architect. Long and short of it, I've found these in-house Architects to be skilled in only one building type. They are not Architects as master builders.
I would get paid around $70,000 for having 8 years experience, a license and LEED and NCARB certification and working in NYC.
Would or are? If you have all the credentials, what are you doing now and what are you making? The delta between traditional practice and working on the client side all depends on what positions you are comparing. Staff Architect to staff architect could see a 25% difference, but a Principal and a profitable large private firm can easily do as good or better than the highest Architect staff at a major company.
It sounds like there are opportunities for higher salaries out there.
Sure there are, it all depends on what you want to do with your career. Those in-house Architect's I've worked with sure seemed to have a lot of turnover. I would think that a lot of people find that environment less fulfulling than they had hoped.
I guess I'm thing in terms of dollars right now because I feel over burdened with my student loans from two private schools and I'm worried I'm going to be living in the streets when I retire.
My goal is to pay off my student loans while I have a high paying job. The job will be strictly 9-6 - no overtime usually required and this will give me time to do my own small work on the side (competitions, small renovations, etc.) which will be where my fulfillment will come from.
I don't know if this area is will I remain for the rest of my life but at least it will relieve some financial stress.
I use the term "would get paid" because I'm unemployed (after being laid-off twice) but I haven't had a salaried job since I got my license and LEED certification. I also got some project management experience doing a 1200sf apartment renovation for a friend. I was making $65,000 before so I don't think it's a huge jump to $70,000 for these reasons.
I understand that if you are unemployed you've gotta take what you can get...a pay bump from your old job is just icing on the cake.
That said, there are a lot of people out there that were lured into jobs for a paycheck. What was supposed to be temporary turned out to be a lifetime.
At least it sounds like you understand what you are getting yourself into. Best of luck to you.
Some years back, I interviewed a young graduate architect who had taken a high-paying job in the facilities department of a public corporation right out of college. Initially, he was seduced by the salary, then got stuck there for a couple of years due to a recession. Basically, he was experienced at implementing prototype designs for a retail chain. Eventually he decided he wasn't happy doing that sort of work and wanted to move into private practice.
When he came to visit me, I found his school portfolio to be quite good, but didn't see very much in his recent work experience to recommend him as anything other than a near entry-level intern. He didn't disagree with that assessment, but when I told him what we could pay to bring him in at that level, I really thought he was going to start crying right there in the conference room.
He then told me that he absolutely hated his current job, but that he and his wife had grown used to the lifestyle his salary enabled. He knew he'd have to take a huge economic hit to return to private practice, where he knew he'd be happier. He was miserable and felt trapped.
In the end, he stayed put at the public corporation. I bumped into him at an AIA event a few years later -- he still was in the same job and still totally miserable.
But, he did drive a nicer car than what I was driving at that time.
I think that's an excellent point. If you go work for a big corporation doing programming or designing the same Target store or bank branch over and over again (or doing the specs for entitlements submissions and LEED documentation for the same), you'll get paid whatever people at that grade and level of experience at that company get paid. At a bank, this means you'll be in the same category as the facilities mgmt guys, the IT guys, the accountants and the business analysts.. and all their other back office guys and gals. Often, this will be more than what you'd make as an architect (I still think that Elevens/Hoodles will be underselling herself if she asks for less than $80,000-$90,000).. but it can be difficult to come back, both for the pay cut and the type of projects to which you'll be able to refer when you decide you want to come back to design.
Remember, the risk profile changes in your favor too, with these jobs: you know the bank will always need a branch design specs person as long as it is expanding and building branches, and if you're that person, you have a measure of job security.
The trade-off is in the repetition and in the type of skills your new job will engage.
quizz, I can counter your cautionary tale: I worked with an architect who had a sucessful early stint as a big-box architect. He was young, maybe in his late 20's early 30's when he left to work in a more traditional role where he became a principal and now leads a department with lots of respected repeat clients and does very well.
Elevens, if it's a major bulge bracket i-bank (Morgan Stanley, Goldman, Sachs, etc), definitely ask for at least $90k and probably more ($105k sounds about right). Their back office professionals make about 10-20% more than their peers at commercial banks like Chase and BoA.
Anyone you ask outside of architecture this question will give you tthe same answers. Do what you got to do to pay off your student loan, ask for at least 100K to support your family. Only architects will give you a warning that you may not return to architecture once you chose for a normal paying job. This eplains why architecture is the worst paying job. Architects are willing to live a life of debt, a life in poverty, living from paycheck to paycheck all in the name of architecture. And we wonder why banks don't give us loans when we want to start a practice.
Elevens, as a person in a similar position but without that job offer, I would absolutely take it. One thing I've learned from working odd jobs lately is that there is absolutely nothing wrong - and a lot to be gained - from seeing life on the other side of the fence for awhile, and a bigger paycheck with guaranteed hours is one of them! If you know what you want going into this thing, and you are strict with yourself and don't let it last longer than it should, then more power to you. I would absolutely take a gig like that, and I would pay off my student loan shackles with it. Good luck!
Also, I'd ask 6-figures, given what advice was emailed to you, and let it settle down to 90k if necessary.
jaja - How's that saying go? Do something you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life. While pay in traditional Architecture is quite pathetic compared to the corporate world, if you're doing something you truly love it's a pretty sweet gig with a decent middle class salary. Sure, you probably won't be a millionarie, but who cares so long as you are happy?
I know that Architect's are not the only people that would caution someone to think hard before taking a job strictly for the money. My own brother not too long ago quit a job at a Fortune 500 company because he was sick of it. A job that a college recruiter sucked him into with promises of high pay. Sure, the salary, benefits, company car, etc. all made my Architectural compensation look paltry in comparison, but he wasn't happy. Now he's working for about 65% of his old salary w/almost none of the old benefits, but at a small company and loving his job.
It's true that doing something you love will make your life a bit more easier. However, this only applies to 'real professions'. Architecture isn't a profession since it doesn't meet the minimum requirement to be a profession. A profession enables you to pay off your student loan, it gives you security, it give you the means to afford a house, pay the care note, insurance, it give you freedom to put money in your kids college fund, or the option to buy tacky drapes at JC Penny etc.). Those are just the simple basics in life. So, it's not becoming a millionaire, it's just being able to afford the basics.
That said, I think the example of Harold truly shows that you can have the cake and eat it too.
It's true that doing something you love will make your life a bit more easier. However, this only applies to 'real professions'. Architecture isn't a profession since it doesn't meet the minimum requirement to be a profession. A profession enables you to pay off your student loan, it gives you security, it give you the means to afford a house, pay the care note, insurance, it give you freedom to put money in your kids college fund, or the option to buy tacky drapes at JC Penny etc.). Those are just the simple basics in life. So, it's not becoming a millionaire, it's just being able to afford the basics.
That said, I think the example of Harold truly shows that you can have the cake and eat it too.
If you are working for Goldman Sachs (or one of the others on Wall Street [they are all basically the same]) in the department I am thinking you'll be working in...
Consider these points:
You will be working at least 60-80 hours a week, 7 days a week. Analysts at Goldman Sachs (the highest paying on Wall Street) start between $78-84k. Some start as low as the mid-50s.
So even at 84k, You'll be pulling in $1600 ($1,000 after taxes). At say 65 hours a week, your magical $40 an hour job turns into $24 dollars an hour. Better than most but tiring to say the least.
Secondly, you will have to live in the financial district or the Lower East Side. Expect to pay about $1800-2200 a month for a studio (I mean the studios are pretty eff'ing glorious and the buildings have every single amenity you can think of).
And then lastly, this is a wholly important point. You will be expected to socialize. And socializing means spending $40-100 a day on lunch. There's a reason why many of New York's most expensive restaurants are down there. Maybe not everyday but do expect to spend a ludicrous amount of money if a higher up asks you if you'd like to join them for lunch.
After taxes, rents and the impending social burden, your post wall street income will be between $800-1200.
And that's not even including all the Prada clothing you're going to have to buy.
When it comes down to it... you maybe oozing with prada, fish eggs and have an amazing view of the East River from your 900 sq ft. studio, but you'll be struggling to pay the cable bill like everyone else!
jaja - Don't take this as defending the salaries offered in traditional architecture. I think our wages are abysmal, and with that, our fees. Architect's work too cheap - plain and simple.
All that said, you can make it on a salary in this profession. I went to a modest state school for a BArch. Spent the least amount of years possible racking up student debt at an institution that wouldn't put me in the poor house. I also worked throughout my entire 5 year tenure. Little to no help from mommy & daddy. Upon graduation I got a job in a city that had a more modest cost of living - by design. Shared an apartment with a roommate - by design. Didn't go out and blow all my money at the bars every weekend - by design. Didn't buy a new car - by design.
All that allowed me to pay off ALL of my student debt and even put some away into savings. Over the years my salary advanced with my career to the point where I was able to purchase a home and upgrade the car. I even bought some custom blinds for said home. So by your definition I've made it, right?
The problem is where people put themselves into $100k+ of student debt for a high profile college and then think they have to live in a high cost of living city like NYC or SF or what have you. Grads of most any major will end up in trouble when they pull that move.
Unicorn, I don't think GS back office people work 60-80 hrs week.. nor do they have to wear Prada. I know FM people at a couple of those firms. I even know a director of internal IT at MS, who doesn't make any more than any other IT helpdesk exec I know, anywhere else in the Fortune 500. They look like the rest of us and work reasonable hours.. only thing is, they make a little more money than people who work in firms and their jobs are a little more boring. Quid-pro-quo.
Salaries in a different sector of the industry
I think I'm close to getting a job in the Pre-Design dept. at a major financial firm. I've heard that jobs like this pay better than a job at an architectural firm but I don't know how much better. At an architectural firm I would get paid around $70,000 for having 8 years experience, a license and LEED and NCARB certification and working in NYC. Do you think I should ask for 10% or 20% more? I have no idea but I definitely want to start off on the right level - especially after reading this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/15/your-money/15money.html?hp
what is a pre-design dept in a major financial firm?
You analyze the site or space for the new offices and develop the program to give to the architect who will be designing the space or building.
Are you talking about pre-recession salaries? because $70k these days even with 30 years of experience is hard to come by...
I'm looking for the percentage difference in salaries between working for an architectural firm and working for the client within their company (which happens to be a major financial firm). Recession or pre-recession.
is this a common situation?
the only finance firm that seems to hire architects is D.E. Shaw.
I have been told that working on the client end of things is more lucrative in general. (I know this isn't always the case - I had a friend that worked for British Airways and got about the same as he would have gotten working for an architectural firm but he did get discount airline tickets:) I know definitely that it's true for this firm but I don't know how much because I can't get a percentage...
This isn't a firm specific question and there are many financial firms and other companies that hire internal architects. I just want to know what the percentage difference is between working for a firm and working for a client as an in-house architect in a financial firm or another prosperous company.
hoodles: you're probably asking the wrong people - I doubt there's anybody here who works in a job like the one you describe. What you need to do is locate some folks who are doing the job you are trying to obtain and see what information they can provide on this question. Perhaps the employer will allow you to meet with some of the people in the department you're trying to join.
I actually got an answer emailed to me last night.
Here it is:
Hi!
that's what I thought I wanted to check.
I'd ask for around $90,000.. more if you feel you have really competitive experience. I have a friend who took a job like that for one of the big box retailers (in siting and programming) and about 12 years of experience as an architect, for about $110,000, and, frankly, I think that bid was low compared to what he might've gotten. I work in the industry, with about 15 years of experience doing mostly programming work and pre-design development strategy for urban scale sites, and I make more than my big box friend.
Moving to "the client side" can be more lucrative than private practice but the degree to which you do better depends on your duties and responsibilities. Earlier in my career I worked for a real estate development firm. My compensation there was about 25% higher than the best offer I received from an architecture firm. BUT I was not doing architecture at that firm. I had just received my MBA and I was hired in as a development manager - very different duties and responsibilities.
Admittedly, that was a long time ago, but I tend to feel that the spread won't be quite so large if the duties and responsibilities you hold in the new firm are comparable to the role you would have in an architecture firm.
Ask yourself: "why would they pay me a lot more than I could earn in an architecture firm? why would I be worth more to this firm than I would be worth to an architecture firm?"
Good luck.
ok. that's good advice but what do you think of the post above where the person is describing a salary at a big box store company? It sounds like there are opportunities for higher salaries out there.
History repeating itself, again, our profession being chopped into bits and pieces, what are you guys going to call yourselves?
PS. congratulations on the new gig. 90k for 8 years experience thats a good deal take it before they find out your considered a baby in architecture.
ps spelling error i know "before they find out you're cosidered...a baby in Architecture" not trying to insult you
ive been reading contracts all day seeing double
GSA has a job post for a Program Manager job in San Francisco. Requires license as Arch. or PE and extensive staff supervision experience and willingness to travel. Pays 95K - 120K with Federal benefits. Go for 6 figures!
This brings back memories of a surgeon who was in my Revit class two years ago. He was the only non-architect there. He wanted to become an architect but knew at that time (mid 70's) that he wasn't going to able to maintain his family on an architect' s salary. Now he has 6 residential project for private clients and one developer which he does after work and on weekends. He has more projects than my former employer and delivers in BIM while most firms in this areas are fully 2d oriented. He tends to make an additional 200K yearly with these side projects while he earns over 400k working for the hospital. His client are willing to pay him $300 dollars an hour, because he is after all a surgeon even though he's doing architecture. Yet at the same token, his clients are not willing to pay that amount to a trained professional architect. According to those clients, If a surgeon with a few cad classes can run a practice at night, delivers on time and within budget, indicates that either he's a genius or the practice of architecture is really really easy. After all, non of us can remove an appendix on weekends.
Morel of the story: ask for at least 100k or more.
Good god - that's depressing.
We're definitely selling ourselves short.
seriously, ask for between $90 and $110k. Go as low as $80 if you're concerned and it's not a huge bank (as in a regional savings bank as opposed to Chase or HSBC).
That is the applicable range for a financial services professional, in a back office capacity, at a big bank, with 8 to 12 years experience. They will assign you to an employment grade, not to a profession, once you get there, which means that you will be on-par with their MIS people, their accountants, their business analysts, their facilities managers, etc.
Sure it is, but as quizzical noted, your duties working for the client will be different than traditional architecture.
I've worked with in-house Architects at several major companies from people in the grocery business to home improvement chains to major banks and healthcare companies. Ahh the joys of being a developers architect. Long and short of it, I've found these in-house Architects to be skilled in only one building type. They are not Architects as master builders.
I would get paid around $70,000 for having 8 years experience, a license and LEED and NCARB certification and working in NYC.
Would or are? If you have all the credentials, what are you doing now and what are you making? The delta between traditional practice and working on the client side all depends on what positions you are comparing. Staff Architect to staff architect could see a 25% difference, but a Principal and a profitable large private firm can easily do as good or better than the highest Architect staff at a major company.
It sounds like there are opportunities for higher salaries out there.
Sure there are, it all depends on what you want to do with your career. Those in-house Architect's I've worked with sure seemed to have a lot of turnover. I would think that a lot of people find that environment less fulfulling than they had hoped.
I guess I'm thing in terms of dollars right now because I feel over burdened with my student loans from two private schools and I'm worried I'm going to be living in the streets when I retire.
My goal is to pay off my student loans while I have a high paying job. The job will be strictly 9-6 - no overtime usually required and this will give me time to do my own small work on the side (competitions, small renovations, etc.) which will be where my fulfillment will come from.
I don't know if this area is will I remain for the rest of my life but at least it will relieve some financial stress.
I use the term "would get paid" because I'm unemployed (after being laid-off twice) but I haven't had a salaried job since I got my license and LEED certification. I also got some project management experience doing a 1200sf apartment renovation for a friend. I was making $65,000 before so I don't think it's a huge jump to $70,000 for these reasons.
Hoodles=Elevens now.
I understand that if you are unemployed you've gotta take what you can get...a pay bump from your old job is just icing on the cake.
That said, there are a lot of people out there that were lured into jobs for a paycheck. What was supposed to be temporary turned out to be a lifetime.
At least it sounds like you understand what you are getting yourself into. Best of luck to you.
A cautionary tale.
Some years back, I interviewed a young graduate architect who had taken a high-paying job in the facilities department of a public corporation right out of college. Initially, he was seduced by the salary, then got stuck there for a couple of years due to a recession. Basically, he was experienced at implementing prototype designs for a retail chain. Eventually he decided he wasn't happy doing that sort of work and wanted to move into private practice.
When he came to visit me, I found his school portfolio to be quite good, but didn't see very much in his recent work experience to recommend him as anything other than a near entry-level intern. He didn't disagree with that assessment, but when I told him what we could pay to bring him in at that level, I really thought he was going to start crying right there in the conference room.
He then told me that he absolutely hated his current job, but that he and his wife had grown used to the lifestyle his salary enabled. He knew he'd have to take a huge economic hit to return to private practice, where he knew he'd be happier. He was miserable and felt trapped.
In the end, he stayed put at the public corporation. I bumped into him at an AIA event a few years later -- he still was in the same job and still totally miserable.
But, he did drive a nicer car than what I was driving at that time.
quizzical,
I think that's an excellent point. If you go work for a big corporation doing programming or designing the same Target store or bank branch over and over again (or doing the specs for entitlements submissions and LEED documentation for the same), you'll get paid whatever people at that grade and level of experience at that company get paid. At a bank, this means you'll be in the same category as the facilities mgmt guys, the IT guys, the accountants and the business analysts.. and all their other back office guys and gals. Often, this will be more than what you'd make as an architect (I still think that Elevens/Hoodles will be underselling herself if she asks for less than $80,000-$90,000).. but it can be difficult to come back, both for the pay cut and the type of projects to which you'll be able to refer when you decide you want to come back to design.
Remember, the risk profile changes in your favor too, with these jobs: you know the bank will always need a branch design specs person as long as it is expanding and building branches, and if you're that person, you have a measure of job security.
The trade-off is in the repetition and in the type of skills your new job will engage.
quizz, I can counter your cautionary tale: I worked with an architect who had a sucessful early stint as a big-box architect. He was young, maybe in his late 20's early 30's when he left to work in a more traditional role where he became a principal and now leads a department with lots of respected repeat clients and does very well.
I just wanted to add that since I'm using the salary boost to pay off student loans I'm not expecting my standard of living to change.
Also, it's not an ATM bank - it's an investment bank - so I won't be doing depressing branches but rather offices in different cities.
I understand all of your concerns and appreciate the advice - it's been helpful.
Elevens, if it's a major bulge bracket i-bank (Morgan Stanley, Goldman, Sachs, etc), definitely ask for at least $90k and probably more ($105k sounds about right). Their back office professionals make about 10-20% more than their peers at commercial banks like Chase and BoA.
Anyone you ask outside of architecture this question will give you tthe same answers. Do what you got to do to pay off your student loan, ask for at least 100K to support your family. Only architects will give you a warning that you may not return to architecture once you chose for a normal paying job. This eplains why architecture is the worst paying job. Architects are willing to live a life of debt, a life in poverty, living from paycheck to paycheck all in the name of architecture. And we wonder why banks don't give us loans when we want to start a practice.
Elevens, as a person in a similar position but without that job offer, I would absolutely take it. One thing I've learned from working odd jobs lately is that there is absolutely nothing wrong - and a lot to be gained - from seeing life on the other side of the fence for awhile, and a bigger paycheck with guaranteed hours is one of them! If you know what you want going into this thing, and you are strict with yourself and don't let it last longer than it should, then more power to you. I would absolutely take a gig like that, and I would pay off my student loan shackles with it. Good luck!
Also, I'd ask 6-figures, given what advice was emailed to you, and let it settle down to 90k if necessary.
jaja - How's that saying go? Do something you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life. While pay in traditional Architecture is quite pathetic compared to the corporate world, if you're doing something you truly love it's a pretty sweet gig with a decent middle class salary. Sure, you probably won't be a millionarie, but who cares so long as you are happy?
I know that Architect's are not the only people that would caution someone to think hard before taking a job strictly for the money. My own brother not too long ago quit a job at a Fortune 500 company because he was sick of it. A job that a college recruiter sucked him into with promises of high pay. Sure, the salary, benefits, company car, etc. all made my Architectural compensation look paltry in comparison, but he wasn't happy. Now he's working for about 65% of his old salary w/almost none of the old benefits, but at a small company and loving his job.
It's true that doing something you love will make your life a bit more easier. However, this only applies to 'real professions'. Architecture isn't a profession since it doesn't meet the minimum requirement to be a profession. A profession enables you to pay off your student loan, it gives you security, it give you the means to afford a house, pay the care note, insurance, it give you freedom to put money in your kids college fund, or the option to buy tacky drapes at JC Penny etc.). Those are just the simple basics in life. So, it's not becoming a millionaire, it's just being able to afford the basics.
That said, I think the example of Harold truly shows that you can have the cake and eat it too.
It's true that doing something you love will make your life a bit more easier. However, this only applies to 'real professions'. Architecture isn't a profession since it doesn't meet the minimum requirement to be a profession. A profession enables you to pay off your student loan, it gives you security, it give you the means to afford a house, pay the care note, insurance, it give you freedom to put money in your kids college fund, or the option to buy tacky drapes at JC Penny etc.). Those are just the simple basics in life. So, it's not becoming a millionaire, it's just being able to afford the basics.
That said, I think the example of Harold truly shows that you can have the cake and eat it too.
If you are working for Goldman Sachs (or one of the others on Wall Street [they are all basically the same]) in the department I am thinking you'll be working in...
Consider these points:
You will be working at least 60-80 hours a week, 7 days a week. Analysts at Goldman Sachs (the highest paying on Wall Street) start between $78-84k. Some start as low as the mid-50s.
So even at 84k, You'll be pulling in $1600 ($1,000 after taxes). At say 65 hours a week, your magical $40 an hour job turns into $24 dollars an hour. Better than most but tiring to say the least.
Secondly, you will have to live in the financial district or the Lower East Side. Expect to pay about $1800-2200 a month for a studio (I mean the studios are pretty eff'ing glorious and the buildings have every single amenity you can think of).
And then lastly, this is a wholly important point. You will be expected to socialize. And socializing means spending $40-100 a day on lunch. There's a reason why many of New York's most expensive restaurants are down there. Maybe not everyday but do expect to spend a ludicrous amount of money if a higher up asks you if you'd like to join them for lunch.
After taxes, rents and the impending social burden, your post wall street income will be between $800-1200.
And that's not even including all the Prada clothing you're going to have to buy.
When it comes down to it... you maybe oozing with prada, fish eggs and have an amazing view of the East River from your 900 sq ft. studio, but you'll be struggling to pay the cable bill like everyone else!
Unicorn, you forgot the a point:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/business/22goldman.html
jaja - Don't take this as defending the salaries offered in traditional architecture. I think our wages are abysmal, and with that, our fees. Architect's work too cheap - plain and simple.
All that said, you can make it on a salary in this profession. I went to a modest state school for a BArch. Spent the least amount of years possible racking up student debt at an institution that wouldn't put me in the poor house. I also worked throughout my entire 5 year tenure. Little to no help from mommy & daddy. Upon graduation I got a job in a city that had a more modest cost of living - by design. Shared an apartment with a roommate - by design. Didn't go out and blow all my money at the bars every weekend - by design. Didn't buy a new car - by design.
All that allowed me to pay off ALL of my student debt and even put some away into savings. Over the years my salary advanced with my career to the point where I was able to purchase a home and upgrade the car. I even bought some custom blinds for said home. So by your definition I've made it, right?
The problem is where people put themselves into $100k+ of student debt for a high profile college and then think they have to live in a high cost of living city like NYC or SF or what have you. Grads of most any major will end up in trouble when they pull that move.
Unicorn, I don't think GS back office people work 60-80 hrs week.. nor do they have to wear Prada. I know FM people at a couple of those firms. I even know a director of internal IT at MS, who doesn't make any more than any other IT helpdesk exec I know, anywhere else in the Fortune 500. They look like the rest of us and work reasonable hours.. only thing is, they make a little more money than people who work in firms and their jobs are a little more boring. Quid-pro-quo.
Hawkin, outside of sales and customer relations... Goldman analysts make crap money when it comes to bonuses.
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