I guess from all your posts it's all about money and vacation!

2 weeks paid vacation. I work occasionally on saturdays--sometimes able to do this from home--and a bit more often lately, but I'm paid hourly, so I don't mind usually.

if you're not working weekends, then there's something wrong.

poop-

Its starting to be a little telling how defensive architects get when asked about things like money, how many hours they work ect...

I wish a kid like me trying to decide if grad school in arch is right for me could get some straight answers rather than being architects trying to convince I should martyr myself for architecture everytime I try to learn a little more about the industry.

Yes I love architecture, but I also love skiing, biking, golf, and living my life.

All I am looking for are answers to some pretty legitimate careers questions, at least in my mind they are.

Thanks for your answer Frank.

Sorry buddy, had a rough day...

I have three weeks of vacation but back in the days could never take them all together, not because they didn't allow it, but it was more that I didn't have anybody to take over projects.

But nobody ever questioned if i took days here and there and went somewhere for a week or so. If work gets done, then you can do whatever.

Since we are all on salary they understand that meeting a deadline means overtime and working on weekends, so when we are done, we usually get a few days that we can take off the following week.

Now that the work is really slow, I can even take 4 weeks off if I wanted and nobody would even miss me.

Saturdays....well I personally almost never worked Saturdays, partially because when I started out in architecture I worked at a small firm and we never worked on weekends, but then after I moved up in the world, and started working at a larger firm, the experience paid off and I only spent couple of weekends helping out the team etc. Now...nobody works weekends...That is my personal experience.

Thanks poop...

I ask questions like these because the other ones are more related to me... (whether or not im passionate about arch ect...)

I love architecture, know i could be happy in it, but I also know I want a family and want to see them and provide a steady living so Im trying to get some questions answered before I commit myself to two more years of being at school for 20 hours a day.

Also looking as other design disciplines... environmental design, product des ect... but they seem as bleak as arch right now.

Of course you can have a life and a family and whoever told you otherwise is an idiot or wanted to make him/herself feel better about them being alone! Most of architects I know have families and there are only few that are lonely, but they would be that regardless in what profession they were in! Long hrs at work does not equal no life and no family. Look at other professions where they work longer hrs and they all have families too. Architects have a tendency to think they are the hardest workers, have most dedication to their profession and think their profession is superior to all other (yet they don't get the credit they think they deserve).

Are you referring to actual licensed architects that deal with the coordination aspects of the project or non-licensed architects that are prone to building the construction document process of the project because the non-guys spend more time on the project than the licensed ones. It’s a fact. Once you start dealing with coordination phase, then you start working less hours. You can’t don both management and production at the same time. It’s either one or the other. People that complain about the long hours and having no life tend to be on the production side. It’s no fun but neither is spending hours in a room with other consultants going no-where in the project.

I have 15 days of paid time off and 10 days of sick/emergency leave... that grows (over 15 years) to a maximum of 30 days of PTO + 10 of S/E leave.

I never, in four years, have been asked to come into work on a weekend.
I typically work from 40-45 hours per week.

wow ... all of these posts about not working on weekends. boy do you have it good!!

here is the reality of my situation;

-typical 10 days vacation (2 weeks)
-long weeks - 50 to 60 hours sometimes
-WEEKENDS; usually its a sunDAY thing ... team is on a deadline, and we all come in to work

i will also say this (and maybe i got taken for a ride), but there were some presentation/marketing efforts that i was involved with where i pulled 3 or 4 all-nighters throughout the year in an effort to put together the best presentation possible. keep in mind that i was on the marketing side of architecture and this might be a different situation than those working on a 50% or 100% CD submission. management was very nice about letting those people have a day or two off after the charrettes to "recharge" their batteries; no overtime pay since we're on salary, but it was paid-time off, so it didn't go against our vacation or sick time.

i will also say that the long weeks on a new marrage was/is tough for me. its hard getting out the door at 730am and walking home at 10 or 11pm, eating, showering and going to bed. it's all about balance, and if you do end up getting into those hours, you need to put your foot down and balance out your personal and professional life.

I think in Germany you can get 6 weeks paid vacation

as with any profession, some places treat you humanely and some places treat you like crap. you will be working as a professional, so like anyone else who's not on a clock, you will probably have to work overtime here and there, and that may be staying late or on a weekend or something. any office that forces people (whether implicitly or explicitly) to pull several all-nighters, work 60-hour weeks typically, or anything else of the sort simply does not value its employees. I think poop is right on about architects whining about how much they work, and how hard they work, and how under-appreciated they are. for most people, however, I think it's a pretty typical work experience--mostly typical office hours with some overtime. if you have a nice boss, like I fortunately do, you will be asked a bit in advance if you're able to work over the weekend or a project. I'm also fortunate that my boss does more overtime than anyone else, and is usually working overtime when he asks us to do so. I'm not sure if there's anything as unfair and unappreciative as a boss who demands that you work all the time and goes home at 5.

My experience suggests that those who are diligent about completing their work during the day generally have little, if any, need to work regular nights and weekends. Of course, some firms will persistently understaff projects, which can lead to lots of OT. But such firms are relatively easy to identify and avoid if you're paying attention.

In the US it's fairly typical to receive 2 weeks of paid vacation early in one's career. With seniority there usually comes a gradual increase in available paid time off - it's rare to see more than 4 weeks of vacation time, even for very senior staff. However, in many firms, senior people frequently find it hard to use up all their vacation time, especially if they enjoy their work.

Working on weekends is really determined by several factors, including the size of the firm, the types of projects and how well projects are managed (this is an important one).

However, in my experiences working in both small and large firms, I've realized that the best way to get out of working on weekends is learning how to say "no" to people when appropriate. If you are a good employee and you produce quality work and contribute to your project team, then your employer should value your personal time the way you value your work. I only have about 3 years of total work experience in the architecture field and I have no problem saying "no" to principals and project managers when I know that they are either (a) trying to take advantage because I am young and have little experience, or (b) when time on a project has been mismanaged and they want me to cover damage control. It's important to know what your value is on a project team, no matter what your experience level is. And I've not only earned respect from senior staff for saying "no" when appropriate, but I've also made it known that I won't be taken advantage of because I'm inexperienced.

But yeah, sometimes, you just have to suck it up and work a weekend once in a while. Just don't make it a habit.

frank, quizz and medusa are all on point.

i think my situation outlined above (60 hour work weeks, late nights, and weekends) is from my "never say no attitude", and the fact that it was my first job in the real world, and i personally wanted to show management that i was the hardest worker in the office. they never "forced" one to stay persay, but they certainly implied and suggested that we stay late.

in my office environment, people can be as efficient as possible, but that sometimes means it gives the designers more time to change and edit their design since you've gotten it done "on-time". it can be a slippery slope with this type of stuff since in the architecture world, design is never finished and can always be changed for the better.

i think medusa said it best - sometimes you just gotta say no.

4 weeks vacation
havent worked over a weekend in at least 3 years


we have a 40-45 hour typical work week here



right now we have a big deadline on Thursday, so those on the project are asked to put in as much time as possible, but only on a voluntary basis. And since its over 3 days, there is the understanding that you get a day off as a reward.
I figure that means i will be here till 9ish Mon-Wed this week, with the boss already saying he will buy dinner for those staying, and then maybe i take friday or next monday off.


I dont quite understand those who say their offices have 60+ hour work weeks. Do you honestly come in at 9am, and stay till 9pm Monday thru Friday on a consistent basis? I sure hope the compensation is worth it

sorry marmkid, let me clarify - the 60 hour work weeks are occasional.

i would say typical week is 45-46 hours or so... 830-630/7
1 or 2x a month might be 50-55ish, sometimes 60.

our office does buy us dinner for those who stay late ... and some of us do get that day off after the crunch.

ah ok, that makes much more sense then, and i think is pretty typical


I was going to say...I really like architecture, but a 60 hour work week on a consistent basis is pretty rough no matter how much you have a passion for something

This is nothing folks - I used to work in the video game industry and
we would work 60hrs/week years on end

this is what happened where I use to work

http://kotaku.com/5444150/alleged-unfair-work-conditions-at-rockstar-san-diego

be grateful you are in architecture and not in games

would you get compensated for it?


I dont think there is anything wrong with working 60 hours a week if you want to and are compensated for it.

I wouldnt choose to do so though is all

so you end up making 13/hr....based on hrs worked. That is why I always chose hourly wage if I can.

well yeah, it all goes back to being fairly compensated

but if the company is trying to squeeze extra work out of you, getting that many more hours of work while only paying you for 40....well that extra profit has to go somewhere

When I worked long hours and long weekends, which was often, it was almost always because somebody promised something that couldn't be delivered without extra effort and I was the one who got to put forth the effort. In a way, it comes with the work. It is a lot easier to tell a young salaried employee that it is part of their job to bust ass than to tell a client you can't have all their latest and greatest changes done by their deadline. Architects are there to make it happen. Many clients wait until the last minute to make decisions and they all come at once like a flood. In a small office, you may be very slow for weeks (where you still have to put in your regular hours even if there isn't anything moving on the jobs) until the decisions are made, then it's time to burn the midnight oil. Then again, I never claimed to have a competent manager.

anyways, no extra profit, marmkid.

i think occasional long hours around a deadline or something is an expected part of the job and not one that is really that unreasonable as long as an effort is made to have the project managed well. There will obviously be a push at every deadline

my wife is in fund-raising/development for a museum. They have events almost weekly that she either helps out at or is working at. So there is working until 10pm here and there a lot as well. It comes with her job, just like working extra hours at a deadline comes with the job for architects.

I agree Strawberry, and thats where your point about competent managing is important


there is a work flow to how projects progress for architects. And its not 60+ hours a week constantly. Its those firms that expect everyone to put that kind of time in all the time that are either completely understaffed, or just keeping the extra profit somewhere.

related...

http://health.yahoo.com/news/reuters/us_heart_overtime.html

This is a fairly common refrain from younger professionals. Then, when they find themselves at the sharp end of the spear (i.e. being the one out there selling work and setting fees and schedules with clients) these "promises" that we have to make to keep clients satisfied don't seem quite so unrealistic.

We are in a service business ... whether we like it or not "faster, cheaper, better" is what it takes to secure and keep fee-paying clients. There are just so many "patrons" to go around and the sad fact is that the vast majority of us don't have what it takes to attract that sort of client on a consistent basis.

file, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. ;)

I've worked for a firm where plenty of free overtime was built into the project schedule from day one, therefore there was no hope of ever getting a break. The principal would promise unreasonable deadlines to the client - when the client hadn't asked for it and really didn't care - and then all the employees on the project were the ones who had to stay the long hours to meet the impossible deadlines, while boss went home on time everyday. Same boss would typically give instructions for something to be done by the next morning, as boss was walking out of the office door on time at the end of the day. This kind of employee abuse is inexcusable. The clients were surprised at a quick turnaround they weren't ready for and didn't ask for, and the design or drawings went out the door half-baked in the meanwhile. It's worth noting that the profit at this firm did not get passed on to employees, who suffered from below-average wages for the town and no comp time, no guaranteed sick or personal days, and average or below-average bonuses at year end. This is one reason I've decided not to work for sole-proprietors any more - there's too much freedom for them to become petty dictators.

Contrast this with another firm I worked for which was a husband and wife duo. We were paid hourly so on the slow works - like Straw said, they're a part of the cycle of a small firm - I simply went home and got some of my own life lived. On the tough weeks, one or both of the bosses stayed the whole time we did, and worked right alongside us. It was fantastic - no reason to complain, because you're paid for the work you do, and you never feel taken advantage of. It's simple and straightforward. And if a deadline simply wasn't meetable, we went back to the client and told them, and you'd be surprised how often they said "oh don't worry about it, we won't be free to meet till next week anyway" or "well if you're not happy with it, we want to make sure we get a good design, so go ahead and take the time you need to get it right".

I think some of it depends on which clients you choose to work for. (And of course in an environment like today's, you don't get a lot of choice in that.) And some of it depends on how you set up the project expectations from day one, with the client. I think, in general, architects have more control than they think.