the bill was eviscerated in congress. little help for people with existing loans. pell grants increased by a measly $400/year. there is some government savings, but almost nothing for students and families. health care was a major victory; this was barely worth noting, a far cry from the substantial student aid bill that obama proposed in his campaign or state of the union.

its the original poster still hoping no'bama will save the world?

Actually, the kind of people Obama has made come out of the woodwork, the behavior of people of the past 8 years (on both sides) and the current direction of the country has proved me that the world is no longer worth saving.

That being said. This bill is worthless. Sure, it increases the amount of people who qualify for pell grants. But what about work-study programs? It doesn't solve the current debt crisis emerging out of educational markets.

And finally, the biggest cost of going to school is rarely education. It is room, board and transportation (don't give me that bus shit either... buses are practicality the worst thing ever when it comes to public transportation).

The program should have given out substantial funds to universities to adequately urbanize their campuses (also allowing them to draw funding through leases to businesses, offices, institutions et cetera) and provide more at cost housing. And if people don't like government housing, form public-private partnerships directly adjacent to campus to provide apartments at lower costs.

Centralization and transit-oriented developments would make campuses safer (easier to patrol, more effective policing), lower the amount of DUIs and traffic-related deaths and drive away businesses who exploit students.

You are mistaken. Your thread title should read:

"Do you realize what Obango just did TO students? "

...if it is to be techincally accurate anyways.

But who cares about technical accuracy nowadays when Big Brother does such a fine job at connecting all the dots for us.

The money specialists say if you owe more than you make per year you are bankrupted. There are so many in our profession getting out of school already 5 times bankrupted. And very good luck for all of us, we sure gonna need it!

The previous scheme had taxpayers subsidizing banks despite the fact that they carried little to no risk; that same money will now increase aid to students, increase the number of students eligible for Pell Grants, and help provide health care for the uninsured. By any measure this is an improvement over the previous system, which existed only to increase the profitability of banks.

I am waiting for free Gov. college now. Other countries have excellent ones for decades. We are missing out.

I want to be refunded.

"It strips banks of their role as middlemen in federal student loans and puts the government in charge."

To me, most instances of cutting out middlemen in the process is a good thing. And putting the savings of cutting out the middlemen to providing more GRANTS and lowering interest makes damn good sense. + ~$500 in grants per year isn't chump change. And increasing the # of people that are eligible means that there is a much higher net benefit than the ~$500 increase.

So... what are some of you talking about?

the problem i had with the bill, slart, is with reform to the income based repayment loan plan. obama had proposed a 10% cap on ibr and loan forgiveness after 20 years. currently, there is a graduated scale of repayment based on % of income and debt forgiveness after 25 years. congress passed the 10% cap/20 year forgiveness for loans issed after 2014. it doesn't help anyone who currently has student loans.

the increase in pell grant funding is a step forward, but is a relative drop in the bucket versus the overall cost of higher education. more could have and should have been done with this bill.

yeah i am disappointed that the bill isn't retroactive and only applies to future borrowers.

And pell grants still won't cover much of the costs of a degree which means still lots of student loan debt.

But that being said I am happy about cutting out the middle men fat cat bankers..

Screw them.

These are steps in the right direction.

Things are going to change slowly for the better.

It's a breath of fresh air over the previous 8 years when starting wars and giving fat no-bid military contracts to acquaintances and former employers was the major focus of the White House.

Did anyone express their views on this to their rep?

I think it could have been stronger.

I would like to have seen more interest on this forum in galvanizing support for a stronger bill.

We get the government we ask for after all.

Again, the bill is a start in the right direction that focuses on improving the future.

Cheers!

i have written my congresspeople many times and have encouraged my family and friends to do the same. my concern is that this bill was advertised as comprehensive reform, and that it was not. now that the bill has been passed i'm not sure we will see much action on this issue for several more years. but yeah, totally agree with you, make, if you want change, stay after your congresspeople to do something about it.

fyi, this group is really good about keeping people informed about student loan reform. sign up for their email updates.

Slartibartfast said, "So... what are some of you talking about?"

Oh...nothing I suppose...just a little thing that doesn't exist any longer apparently:

FREEDOM!

As if money and health care "grows on trees"...sheesh that movie idiocracy was like prophetic or something.

make said, "Things are going to change slowly for the better."

Oh sure they'll CHANGE alright. That is what all the blind, deaf, and dumb Obamabots wanted after all. Trouble is, they never asked just exactly what KIND of change they could realistically HOPE for under Barry Soetoro, er OBango.

...Chains you can believe in. Oh yeah. God will definitely give you the government you ask for...just like Kenya, Haiti, and Cuba...you certainly can't avoid this rule of the Universe.

Cheers! Here is to the official dawning of slavery...oh wait! that already happened back in November 2008. King Bush the I did a great job paving the way for "The One" to finally implode the whole kit and kaboodle.

i have written my congresspeople many times and have encouraged my family and friends to do the same. my concern is that this bill was advertised as comprehensive reform, and that it was not. now that the bill has been passed i'm not sure we will see much action on this issue for several more years. but yeah, totally agree with you, make, if you want change, stay after your congresspeople to do something about it.

fyi, this group is really good about keeping people informed about student loan reform. sign up for their email updates.

Well said Obi

pell grant spent on car rims and stereo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o72lubK8e8o

oh right. 'well said' indeed. cause that made a lot of hard sense.

Obiwankenobi spelt it all out, whether you like it or not.

Obi,

Do you know what FREEDOM is?

"Cash grows on trees"

You're spouting a bunch of Fox News talking points.

Tell me what the government is like in Kenya and how that has anything to do with us.

What about health care that is private and works?

Germany has it.

And they have 6 weeks vacation and a growing economy.

No, Germany isn't socialist. Sorry if facts stand in the way of your talking points.

don't get sucked into the vortex, make. he does this on every thread. it's making it nearly impossible to have an adult discussion on archinect. no wonder people are leaving the forums.

sure, i agree he did spell 'freedom' correctly; thank god for microsoft.

i wish i could agree, or even decisively disagree, with anything else he said but the smoke and mirrors are clouding my path of vision.

word

The average income in germany, in US dollars, is about $38,000. Just what I looked up so....

The average taxes in Germany are 38% which supposedly does not include the mandatory 5.5% solidarity surcharge, whatever that is.

So, 43.5% taxes is the average german tax rate.

Sounds like free health care to me.

Is that 38 per capita income, personal income or household income?

And you do realize in many places in Europe, a household is not defined the same away it is in America.

It is different.

6 weeks vacation, longer life expectancy and health care for everyone

They have a better economy than we do these days.

$38,000 in u.s. is taxed at 25% (and that's for the cash earned over $34,000. the first $8,375 is taxed at 10%, from $8,376 to $34,000 you're taxed at 15% ..)

add a really high state income tax like california and you pay something like 8% on top of that so to simplify things let's say the u.s. tax is 33% as opposed to the 43.5% in germany.

does not sound like free health care to me.

So you pay $8,000 a year for health insurance. Add that to your total.

We have a huge deficit which is future taxes.

No one said that health care was free. What they have is sustainable. Our health care system is about 17% of our GDP Germany's is about 10%.

That's a huge tax that isn't in your figures.

Measuring taxes is not always so cut and dry.

We no longer live in a world where we can be so isolationist and ignorant of what our competitors do.

Having health insurance accessible to everyone is a step in the right direction.

Our "free" here in the USA means someone else pays to clean up the mess.

That was "no longer" we can be so isolationist and ignorant of what our competitors do.

The solidarity charge if I remember correctly is a 5.5% tax on your post tax income.

So... if you were to make 38,000 a year in Germany, you'd be paying a tax rate of about 21.5% ($8170) and 5.5% on the remainder ($1640.65) for an unmarried person with no exemptions.

That's a total of 25.8% of income in taxes.

The tax rate for a similar individual in the U.S. is 25% not including state or local income taxes.

.8% for basically free college, killer public housing schemes, universal healthcare, widespread public transportation and a higher standard of living?

8 pennies on the dollar is worth it!

And a much greener economy

and to figure the real federal tax rate on $38,000 i gotta bust out the calculator ..

from $1 to $8,375 you are taxed at 10% = $837.50
from $8,376 to $34,000 you are taxed at 15% = $3,840.60
from $34,001 to $38,000 you are taxed at 25% = $999.75

so $5,677.85 / $38,000 = 14.94% tax rate

average state income tax rates are around 3% (as i mentioned california has basically the highest state income tax rate)

$38,000 in the u.s. is taxed around 18% as opposed to montagneux's number of 25.8%

lower tax rate, but a much browner economy :(

(though i agree germany is very well run .. look at greece and spain to see higher taxes and much higher unemployment rates and where the u.s. could be headed)

Talk to me when they do something about people who already have student loans that are sitting at 6.8% (or more) fixed interest rates. Then I will be interested.

Germany's debt to GDP ratio is something north of 300% while ours is 60% - Germany is a time bomb just waiting for a spark


But don't worry we will soon be joining them. For all the talk of how broke America is, we are actually one of the best financed countries on earth - well we were at least

Please do not reference my post if you're going to make nonsensical arguments. I do not benefit from this bill, so I have no ulterior motivate for defending it. Nor am I a blind Obama follower. Seriously, what would I have to gain from that? Sure its not as comprehensive and may not help everyone, but its clear that there is a limited amount of funds generated from cutting out the middlemen, and might have been over-estimated. And so things like the "10% cap/20 year forgiveness" plan might've been unsustainable from this. For some of us, it was probably the wrong time to think about that when our existing student loans are crippling our future, but when was it ever fair?

So... how is making higher education more affordable by providing higher grants and lower interest rates - by taking money away from banks who simply acted as middlemen - taking away from YOUR freedom? If you're going to answer my question, please provide some reasoning.

Frankly, what I REALLY want to see is: A transparent graphical flow-chart of exactly what happens to students' tuition/room/board money. Where does it all go, to what resources, etc? I don't want to see taxation, policy changes, and all that, I just want to see where all the money is going so I know exactly what I'm paying for. I'm the kind of person that I would happily spend thousands of dollars if I know what I'm getting and thats what I get, but if I get swindled just one dollar, you better watch out.

haha... ulterior motive...

And how many universities out there are going to say, "Oh, students have $400 more dollars to spend...lets raise tuition by $400!"

I'm obviously no economist, otherwise I'd be on the Econonect boards or something, but it would seem to me that both universities (businesses of education, yes even public schools), and insurance companies, when they hear people have more money to spend (ie through government grants), that they'll just raise their prices by an equal amount.

Without any direct regulation on the cost of education, or the price of insurance, actions by the government to control costs won't be very effective.

I suppose that would be one reason I would be interested in a public option. Though I haven't heard any sort of public option being discussed for public universities...

Awesome!

Germany's debt to GDP ratio is something north of 300%

2009 CIA 78%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

jafidler said, "i have written my congresspeople many times and have encouraged my family and friends to do the same..."

So how has that been working out for you?

Here is an idea for a change: use a tactic that works first...THEN dispense uinsolicited advice.

I'm sure they have loved getting your fan and hate mail the last decade...I wonder if it was used the same day as toilet paper or stored for future use.

545 derelict, treasonous men and women (Congress) currently are leading 300 million hostage.

"writing congresspeople" is what got 300 million people into this bottomless hole that is only getting deeper.

Purpurina said, "Free college and free healthcare is realistic and contemporary!"

...in Never Never Land. Seriously, since when did the fable of the ant and the lazy grasshopper become superceded by this nonsense of Hope and Change at no cost.

I've seen more convincing arguments in late night infomercials.

"Chains you can believe in".

I just love how in a few years things will be much, much worse than they are now and STILL people will find someone else to blame besides themelves, and along will come another self annointed "Messiah" to "deliver us from evil".

Sorry t burst your Peter Pan inspired fantasy but Never Never Land is not real...thought Michael Jackson's escapades would have shattered that illusion but apparently surrealism is prefered over reality 10 to 1 these days. Can't say I blame you...this is quite the nightmare you are creating for yourselves.

Obi.

There are tuition free Gov. high quality universities in European countries and Brazil for decades, healthcare as well, should be great if we catch up with that and do even better. That's my opinion. But offcourse I am not one of those who watch Fux news without checking the world's reality. And it's not Hope and Change at no cost, we pay taxes and we should have a positive mass benefit.

actually, i have received personal letters from senators stabenow and levin. quite honestly, i feel pretty good about the direction the country is going in and feel proud to be a part of it. in any case, it seems to be working a hell of a lot better than writing half-crazed nonsensical diatribes on random architecture blogs...

The price of a gallon of gasoline in the USA is an example of the Neverland mentioned above.

The real price of gasoline, the one that includes the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the US military presence in the gulf has been estimated to be anywhere from $8 to $10 a gallon.

Here's more of what it will do, courtesy Rep. George Miller's Ed & Labor Committee [pdf]

Invest the bill’s savings to make college affordable and help more Americans graduate

Invests $36 billion over 10 years to increase the maximum annual Pell Grant scholarship to $5,550 in 2010 and to $5,975 by 2017. Starting in 2013, the scholarship will be linked to match rising costs-of-living by indexing it to the Consumer Price Index. This includes an investment of $13.5 billion to fund a shortfall in the Pell Grant scholarship program due to increased demand for the scholarship.
Invests $750 million to bolster college access and completion support for students. It will increase funding for the College Access Challenge Grant program, and will also fund innovative programs at states and institutions that focus on increasing financial literacy and helping retain and graduate students.
Makes federal loans more affordable for borrowers to repay by investing $1.5 billion to strengthen an Income-Based Repayment program that currently allows borrowers to cap their monthly federal student loan payments at 15 percent of their discretionary income. These new provisions would lower this monthly cap to just 10 percent for new borrowers after 2014.
Invests $2.55 billion in Historically Black Colleges and Universities and Minority-Serving Institutions to provide students with the support they need to stay in school and graduate.
Invests $2 billion in a competitive grant program for community colleges to develop and improve educational or career training programs.
Provide reliable, affordable, high-quality Federal student loans for all families

Converts all new federal student lending to the stable, effective and cost-efficient Direct Loan program. Beginning July 1, 2010, all new federal student loans will be originated through the Direct Loan program, instead of through the federally-guaranteed student loan program. The Direct Loan program is a more reliable lender for students and more cost-effective for taxpayers.
Keeps jobs in America. Under the bill, 100 percent of Direct Loans will be serviced by private lenders. Lenders will compete for contracts to service all federal student loans, which will guarantee borrowers high- quality customer service and preserve jobs. Unlike loans made by banks, Direct Loans can only be serviced by workers in the U.S. Last year, Sallie Mae was forced to bring 2,000 jobs back to U.S. soil to win a direct loan servicing contract. Sallie Mae is now one of four private banks servicing 4.4 million direct loans.

Keep on NOT writing your congressman Obi while the more sensible of us will continue writing ours - great strategy by the way.