i was reading various articles about ole scheeren's departure from oma and noticed one reason he gave for leaving was to "live a more balanced life." he worked at oma, a notorious pressure cooker, for 15 years, relocated halfway around the world, did some great projects, and is now what, 38 or 39? still young, by all accounts, and able to take any path he wants. my question is this--do women in this profession see this as a valid career trajectory? would you set aside this time in your life to focus so singlemindedly on your career, maybe leave your family, friends, culture for however long to relocate wherever work takes you, at the potential risk to your personal relationships, desire to eventually have a family, etc.? have you passed up exciting opportunities elsewhere to invest in a relationship/marriage/children, etc. ? basically, is this realistic for anyone, or does it privilege single men? what do you think?
if you respond to this, please state your age. i'm 34.
It takes a special type of person to do that, regardless of their gender. I think everyone enjoys the benefits of work/life balance. Men like having friends and families too you know...
I am a 24 year old male. I agree with Alexi, it definitely takes a special type of personality to pour all their energy into their career. I have very little experience in the profession, but that little bit made me realize what I want out of life.
I read about Ole Scheeren, that he is going to marry his current girlfriend - a Chinese actress, may be that's why he wants to stay in China and set his own practice.
of course, you are right...but those 'special' people obviously want balance eventually too...and 'special' women can't always wait until they are 40...
of course, you are right...but those 'special' people obviously want balance eventually too...and 'special' women can't always wait until they are 40...
elinor - absolutely it's a valid option. I'm 36 and did it for 12 years. While I don't own a home or a couple of vehicles, don't have children, etc, I also don't have the financial debt and have a wealth of incredible life experiences, which had definitely helped my design skills. I feel zero regret about choosing a "non-traditional" path. I chose to head back to my hometown at 34 and feel like if I had done this earlier I would have never felt comfortable being here.
I am also not the only female I know who has done this.
I'd say what all of the people I know who have chosen to take this route (male and female) have in common is an incredible support network. We know our friends and family will always be here/there. We continue to cultivate those relationships as we explore the world and our profession and also build new ones as we go which we maintain even when we're far away.
The traditional role of women getting married, having children, raising a family...well, that's each individuals choice. But for those who choose to focus on their career it's either not a priority or we realize all this can be done in our 30's and we explore the world and our career when we've got the energy of our youth!
It's not waiting if you're into what you're doing.....when you're not into it anymore, it's time to move on. That's what Scheeren's doing.
There are many people who never have children or get married and are satisfied with their lifestyle. It not so cut and dry. Some folks don't have kids until they're 50 or even 60. Basically, you make choices in life and those choices either support a family or don't. Architecture doesn't have anything to do with it.
There are so many different kinds of architecture firms out there, some of them (like OMA) don't support a work/life balance, but some do.
I agree with Alexi that gender doesn't matter when it comes to making the decision to devote yourself hardcore to your career. Some people do, some don't - I admit I've been essentially lazy about my career all along! The beauty of feminism is that women and men alike are now able to make decisions that work for them and their families, hopefully without judgement.
One of my personal catchphrases is that the workplace policies that are good for women are identical to the ones that are good for families. Men want to be able to spend time with their kids, go to soccer games, etc., not only women. It's just still somehow expected in our society that women will still shoulder the majority of the child/home issues, after having spent the time pregnant and on maternity leave too (that physical aspect isn't likely to change ever, if at all!).
That said, lots and lots of women manage to "do it all". An inspirational older woman architect I know, something of a mentor to me, sadly just passed away this week after having her own firm and raising a child for decades, and starting at a time when women in the profession were rare and faced major obstacles. Many, many women end up starting their own firms when they have young families - the flexibility of at least one partner being self-employed is really necessary for most, I think - I know I couldn't be doing it any other way.
BTW I'm 42, and had a child at age 36 - but like I said, I'm basically lazy. I probably should have achieved a lot more before having a kid than I did! But I have no regrets.
I think there is a problem with the acceptance of this kind of lifestyle as an inevitability.
I think that employers have a responsability/duty of care to employees when it comes to asking them to re-locate. It seems to be accepted that in order to get ahead you have to be prepared to go wherever, whenever.
Having said that remember that women are having children later its a part of our evolution as human beings, given that we live longer.
family and career are always, always going to be a major life conflict. i saw it in my mother who turned down a scholarship to cornell to do her phd in order to raise her children. as my wife and i prepare for our first child, i see us also having to make major career adjustments. it's a critical point, if not the critical point, in life that everyone who chooses to have a family must face. though i will say that having a partner that is completely sympathetic to you and will approach family as an equal partner makes these decisions a lot less daunting than if you had to make these decisions purely on your own. (i'm 32/male.)
Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make. If it makes any "modern" women out there feel less insecure...men can't hack it. I know because I've tried.
Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make. If it makes any "modern" women out there feel less insecure...men can't hack it. I know because I've tried.
Raising good children is the best investment any man can make. If it makes the "traditional" men out there feel less insecure...women can't hack it. I know because
...I'm a lousy mother and my husband is way better at parenting than I am.
I'm poking fun a bit, WinstonSmith, but honestly - people of both genders have excellent skills in some areas and terrible skills in others. Beyond incubating then breastfeeding the child, my husband has been a far better parent in every way: more patient, more watchful of safety, more observant of talents and traumas, more balanced and consistent, and a LOT more fun.
There are no universals when it comes to this stuff. It's true what jafidler said (congratulations! by the way, yay!): it's a critical changing point in life to have a child. But then again, if it works for the partner parents, one partner can continue to be completely devoted to his/her career with no change in schedule while the other takes on essentially all the child-rearing duties except the financial. If that works for that family, great. Most partners manage to find a balance, and it's also important to remember: it gets easier as the kid gets older. The first two years are total chaos, even in the best of circumstances!
Honestly, what I said is universally true. Sure there are miniscule exceptions but GENERALLY it is absolutely true:
"Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make."
For one thing, my wife is a nurse and she takes care of the sick and dying.
She has noticed a universal pattern. In every case the women who are not afraid to die and are happy in their deathly sick circumstances are those who had and reared children.
Sadly, the opposite is also true, she has noticed that universally the women that are childless and didn't nurture/ raise a family during the years when the opportunity was available are unswervingly miserable in their final years/ months/ moments.
I have noticed a lot of superb genes in the rank and file of this miserable profession that are going to waste in the best years of potential childbirth and rearing.
Children and a healthy marriage are a much better investment than "mastering" the latest software tool. Studies show that in the long, long run such families with the father working and the wife saving money on daycare actually end up much better off, financially speaking, in the long term.
interesting discussion...funny that some people automatically equate a desire for a relationship/children with a 'traditional' marriage+house+2 car+debt set-up...people can also have nontraditional lives that include these things...lots of architects have life/work partnerships...and kids are among the most nontraditional creatures around! (btw, i think alison smithson had 5.)
chaos--your trajectory more-or-less mirrors my own, except that i found it less personally fulfilling. i think my point of view is more along the lines of elisabeth's comment. people in all sorts of fields are recognizing the advantages of a healthy work-life balance, and fighting for it, but in architecture there is still this appreciation for this gung-ho, heroic, pull-out-all-the-stops-for-your-work enthusiasm. judging from my own experience, i'm not convinced it leads to more (or better) work. in all areas, from architecture school to office work (even the hands-down crappiest offices seem to expect you to work above and beyond!) this is valued. it's an affectation of the profession, more than anything else.
and believe me, i love what i do and plan to do a lot more of it!! this really shouldn't be read as some sort of embittered architect complaint.
So can someone tell me the name of the Architect who "designed" the Pyramids?
And, what are the realistic odds that your name will actually still be around in 100 years or more if you don't have children to pass it on? And will it even mean anything if it is still around?
Even Gehry is just a blip on the radar screen of time and history (although its difficult to grasp the bigger picture in scale of time most often).
I am much more grateful for the inheritance my ancestors gave to me than I am for some stupid chunk of stone or metal shaped into a building. Plus, I have records, names, faces, biographies going back thousands of years.
Procreation is the easy part. THe real work (enter the ambition that is required) is the work and sustained effort to do a quality job of nurturing one's offspring. Much more difficult (and rewarding if the effort is made) than what this profession can ever hope to pretend to offer.
it's not just about having kids though, kids are fine if you want to have them, but it should not be your SOLE goal in life to pass on your name...
YOU can make a difference in the world beyond just having children and raising them with morals and values. [sounds cheesy yes, but seriously]
try volunteering, try traveling more, try something new and seeing where it takes you.
the POINT of this conversation is to discuss situations where you balance life and work and to that goes MUCH FARTHER than simply having kids in our profession.
if you want to have kids great, if you want to adopt even better, but PLEASE do not sell me the "the only happy people in life are the ones that have kids to carry on their legacy" b/c THAT IS ridiculous.
HOPEFULLY my legacy extends beyond my child-rearing capabilities -- b/c there is alot more to me as a person, and as a designer than just if i can birth and raise children.
So what is your inheritance you received worth without culture? Buildings are much more than "stupid chunks of stone or metal". Why are you even in architecture if you care nothing about contributing ideas or making some contribution to society and culture? Hopefully we're into architecture for something more than just to make our name last. Nothing physical, including buildings, can possibly survive the epochs to come but ideas can last beyond physicality. Isn't this at least as important (to some of us) as having children.
The way I've always seen it is this...having a child has never been a priority for me. As I've entered my mid-30's it's become less so. Although I've always said that if I entered a relationship with a man who I believed would be long-lasting and if having children was important to him I would be more than happy to consider it.
Again, as I've reached my mid-30s and as I've been a smoker half my life, I would be more apt to consider adoption than having a biological child. Either way, even though I've never had the desire to be a full-time mother, I know I would love my child the same as if I had always wanted this.
My friends children are where I put my energy. It frees me to live my life as I wish but I also spend copious amounts of time cultivating my relationship with them. They are as important to me as if they were my own and they are the beneficiaries on all my life-insurance policies and for my will. Their future is important to me.
I've also spent alot of my energy cultivating and continuing my relationships with those who have been/are important to me. My friends are my family and I am part of theirs. Both sides appreciate what we bring to the relationship...their more traditional roles of family, house, 2 cars etc, and my much less traditional role of exploring the world as a single, no-child female.
My desire to live this way makes me no less of a woman, nor does it mean I will be less happy/satisfied on my death bed. I don't believe that having children is what makes those women WinstonSmith spoke about satisfied, I believe it was the relationship they had with them. While my relationship with my friends, my family, and their children true is NOT the exact same as they have with their children, it is still truly satisfying for my expectations.
Again, if the desire for having children DOES appear in my life as some point there is the option of adoption. And by this I do not mean adopting a new born, an infant, a toddler...but rather, adopting a child who is somewhat older as who want's to be 60 with a toddler running around the house!
I'd much rather have some nice human beings as my kids than leave behind pyramids.
But there's no value in stretching the argument to extremes because, let's just face it, most of us wouldn't create pyramids anyway, kids or no kids, paradox included (you sound very young paradox, btw).
but if I'm lucky to have kids I would like to have some achievements by then because I think it's one of the most enduring lessons you can pass down to your kids, to have a life and a passion of your own.
I've also spent alot of my energy cultivating and continuing my relationships with those who have been/are important to me.
Well-said, Chaos. Every time the implication is made that having children is somehow the "most important" thing people can do it diminishes all the other important effects we have on other people's lives who are not our offspring.
Some people have a strong drive to reproduce via children. Some have a strong drive to reproduce, essentially, with a piece of built material culture (building, art). Some people - like authors - have a desire to have their words outlive them.
The point of feminism is that we are all free to pursue the life goals that are important to us and are able to be in balance with the well-being of those we consider family.
Back to the initial post: I worked at a firm that had one female partner out of three, and two of the partners had just started having kids when I joined the firm. For both those reasons it was an exceptionally family-friendly place to work, and a life-work balance was valued. We all worked very very hard, but within reason.
"And, what are the realistic odds that your name will actually still be around in 100 years or more if you don't have children to pass it on?"
Well...if you are traditional and believe that a woman should take her husbands last name only, then your daughter won't be passing on her name... So then is it pointless for her to procreate?
People should chose the path that fits them best. Some people shouldn't be parents and know this. And some people can't have children-I have many elderly aunts and uncles that never could have children-and when they died, they were happy and fulfilled in life anyway. They made a point, as someone said above, to make the relationships in their life worthwhile. That is what is important, regardless of whether or not you are a parent. I know parents who won't be remembered by their children b/c of the shitty job they did in raising them.
And for me growing up, my mom left college to raise children-going back to work as we got older. But my entire life, I knew she had left college, doing something she had loved (art major) and was never able to return b/c of us. Now, she is an amazing mother, and always showed us enormous amounts of love, but I was always aware that a piece of her was missing-that there was something out there that she didn't get to pursue that left a hole in her soul. And I knew at a very young age that I wasn't going to do that. That I would pursue my dreams, and then if it came later in life and I was ready I would have kids.
Now I am 34 and finally done with my masters and working at a job I love. And so now we are thinking of kids, but I will continue working at the job I love, b/c that also fulfills me and I want my children to know that they can pursue what they love and still love their children and be passionate about that as well.
The point of the rant is that there is more than one choice, and you can't prescribe your ideals onto someone else. So find what YOU want to do and do that.
there is massive gap between selfishness and selflessness. Parents that sacrifice everything like the tinydancer's mother in the preceeding example understand this. Those that aren't willing to lay it all on the line...well, you simply can not have it both ways. At some point your children WILL know if they were the priority and got the gold or if they were close runners up and were given second place.
And, for the record, I didn't make the rules (so please don't waste precious time turning this into a browbeating session to "modernize" WinstonSmith). This principle has always been true and will always remain true whether anyone likes it or not.
Winston, you said: I am much more grateful for the inheritance my ancestors gave to me than I am for some stupid chunk of stone or metal shaped into a building. Plus, I have records, names, faces, biographies going back thousands of years.[/i[]
But a lot of people don't feel this way about their heritage, a lot of people [i]despise their heritage and are proud of their ability to break away from the tradition into which they were born.
I'm personally proud of my roots, but I realize that not everyone is like me. You can say "this principle has always been true..." but that's only "true" for your own worldview. Other people think differently, and THAT is true "whether anyone likes it or not".
Gravity and the overarching importance of the family are both eternal laws of the Universe.
I am sad & sorry that others don't know what its like to have an awesome family and to be proud of their heritage and the fame of their dead relative's deeds.
Of course some people come from crappy families. But every single one of us can choose to reverse unhappy trends in family life in our own generation, if we so choose.
But it is like a garden, ground must be prepared, seeds planted, care taken to maintain the right atmosphere for healthy growth, bugs and microbes that threaten to drain the energy from positive growth must not go unchecked, and then the harvest must be timed properly.
As someone alluded to procreation in this thread before..."planting the seeds" is really the easiest, and most obvious (and frankly, fun) part. The bulk of the work, "ambition" comes with what is just plain and simple hard work but the rewards are totally worth it. And not every garden is perfect but by trying the garden can be heaps and heaps better than it would otherwise be without actively tending to it with a mind to reap the harvest down the road.
It does get frustrating to observe so many genes with such gorgeous potential going to waste in the ridiculous pursuit of a fleeting opportunity for fame and fortune.
After 35 years old the chances of having a baby with Downs Syndrome like quadruples exponentially and I think the average age for the onset of menopause is 45 or something like that. Most women are happiest having and rearing children. There are exceptions. It is just such a shame that many of the brightest and generally most beautiful young women in society choose to waste away their genetic potential and enduring happiness chasing professional pursuits, esp. something as ridiculous as the latest architectural "theory" that will certainly come and then go and then be gone forever twenty years from now.
Winston: Spoken exactly like a man who has a vested interest in more women staying out of the career path - on another thread you're telling people to stay out of the architecture path.
there's a difference between fact and belief. and confusing one with the other is what often leads to war.
Jesus, Buddha, and many other influential people never had families. They weren't after fame or personal glory, but their effect on humanity is still felt today. No one is less than or better than if one has a family or not. To have a family is great, but to have no family is equally so.
and people only fight about ideas they're not sure about.
Facts have no need of defending since it's obvious. Like if it's sunny out, you don't have to defend your statement that it is in fact sunny, cause it's obvious. Those are really the only things you can know for sure are facts. mundane things like "pass the salt"
The rest are a matter of opinion, customs, and conditioning which are not necessarily "universal". To proclaim otherwise is a recipe for conflict and ignorance, as we've seen over and over and over and over again.
Who says you can't have a life and pursue your career goals and still have happy, well adjusted children. Ever heard of the phrase "helicopter parents"? it is possible to do too much for your kids. That is one reason we are raising so many self centered young adults who need constant hand holding and positive reinforcement. Parents raise children to be adults. That means they have to learn to make their own decisions, keep themselves happy, learn to have good relationships with people their own age, etc. It does not mean you need to be circling around your child every minute of his life waiting to catch him if he should be a bit shaky, fight his battles with the soccer coach who refuses to see how skilled he is, and argue with the teacher who gives him a c for mediocre work. You can however, be a great role model for your child and show her that it is possible to have a job that you enjoy that fulfills you, is good for society, and makes you self supporting.
"Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make."
I'd just like to point out that I agree with this statement IF you replace "woman" with "person". The fact that you stated that it's the most rewarding thing for a woman to do makes me question your perspective. To tack onto LB's statement, after gestation and lactation, there is really nothing that a father can't provide to the child.
Someone from either team has a better chance at fame and success if they devote all their energy to that goal. As I have said on other, similar threads, our society is comfortable with the concept of a man pursuing career and family with the help of a supportive spouse at home. It only gets complex when a woman wants the same.
interesting responses - however I see 2 basic types of people here: 1. the hardcore career type who could care less about having kids, 2. the family type, who has made a conscious decision to have kids and juggle work somehow, just not as intense as the "hardcore career" type.
I present a 3rd type. I had my first kid during my 5th year in college. I started my first job in architecture being a mother. I also always believed that I had what it took to "make it", i.e. attain fame and peer recognition for being a great talent.
I am now 34 (almost 35), with 3 kids and a husband, a house, and a dog. I have continually worked my a$$ off to prove to the world and to myself that I can "do it all". And yes, I have accomplished a LOT. Have I worked for famous starchitects? No. I don't believe Starchitecture firms allow for any type of family life, plus their salary structure would not have sufficed to afford 3 kids in daycare. However I have won my firms many many design awards. This was only possible thanks to my very supportive husband, who knew he married an architect and understood what that meant (many all-nighters, doing what it takes to get the job done). He doesn't like it, but he tolerates it, and he is proud. And we do take turns, as he also has a career that needs dedication. We have to work as a team, and without flexible work schedules, we would not be where we are today.
But for those women who think you have to make a choice - you don't. But you have to make wise decisions and try not to be "the perfect mom". I don't participate in the PTA, I don't bake every weekend, my kids are not in any after-school clubs etc. My career simply doesn't allow for that much time off. But they are perfectly happy, well-adjusted kids, who are very smart, and who understand how hard their parents work, and why, and that having a job is not the same as having a careeer.
Will I ever be "famous"? Not sure, I'm still young and my kids will be in college and out of the house by the time I'm 45. I think that will give me plenty of time to open my own firm, make a real name for myself (beyond a great local reputation) and leave the mark that I always wanted to leave in this profession.
And after I have achieved my "fame", it probably won't mean as much as it did before I achieved it, and then I will have my family to spend the rest of my retirement with.
It's all about balancing what life throws at you. You can plan all you want, but you might not be happy with what you've ended up. Career planning is great and so important, but don't forget that just because you might start a family, doesn't mean that you have to give up your career. You just have to make some adjustment. Success is relative and means different things to different people.
I wish I knew more women like yarchitect too. Every woman I worked with in the last 8 years that got pregnant, quit. Some tried to come back, but never did.
thanks, ladies. Don't get me wrong, it's a very tough balancing act, and most of the time, I don't feel like I'm doing a very good job balancing anything. Usually, the family suffers, while work gets done. Sometimes, work just has to take a backseat. But if you have a good employer, they will see that. Of course chances are most of us work for a-holes. It is a very male-dominated profession still, and my male counterpart has received the same promotions and benefits as I have without having deserved any of it. His skill set is probably 1/3 of mine (and he's older!!), he simply delegates, sticks to 40 hours, does not offer to help, and prefers to hide in his corner office. He has no design skills, no presentation skills, no 3D skills, and is strictly a PM who delegates. I do it ALL from pre-design through CA. But at the end of the day, we are being kept at the same level for political reasons (title AND salary!!)
It takes thick skin to endure this year after year, and I've known a couple of women who ended up leaving or quitting, because it got to be too much, pressure from the client, pressure from the principals, and unfair competition within the office with a lack of recognition where it matters most. It is a real problem, and what I've found with women who quit after getting pregnant is that they were unhappy to begin with, and the baby gave them an excuse to just turn the other way and walk away from the pressures of this profession.
It's definitely not a family-friendly job, and I think it is getting worse, as clients are becoming more and more demanding, shorter deadlines, smaller fees, bigger expectations. Because there is always another firm who will do it for less. And who suffers? The staff.
I've thought many many times about leaving the profession. So far I'm still in the game. I usually go through my ups and downs, and when I'm down, I'm usually "stuck", so quitting isn't an option (financially). Then the next thing I know, I have a new project, and it's fun again.
Another consideration is switching to Interiors, rather than base building. Interior projects tend to be smaller and shorter. It is less strenuous on a person, and typically a more manageable stress level, which makes for a more family-friendly work-life balance.
For those women contemplating leaving architecture, maybe switching to interiors is a better option? You could have your cake and eat it too? If that makes you happy, that is.
Interior design seems like a better option (less stressful+better salary) but I interned at an interior design company for a month and I didn't like it. I'm just not interested in choosing curtain colors.Besides...there is too much estrogen flowing in those offices,I may get cancer.
The interior designer population is 90% women+10% gay men.Not MY thing.
But if it is something you may like doing I say go for it or maybe there is something called interior architecture which is different than interior design?
start your own firm, yarchitect. You will not regret it. It is easier when your kids are young. I started a firm out of my house when my youngest was 4. It will give you lots of flexibility with schedules and working around family issues. You will probably earn more than working for a firm. And the tail end of a down turn in the economy is one of the best times to do this. I started in 93 at the end of a bad downturn (not this bad, though!) You will be poised to grow as the economy turns around.
Women are nurturers by nature. They are generally allow much easier access to being taken advantage of in any cutthroat economic situation, esp. in architecture.
I can't stand the men who take advantage and I can't stand the women who act as if the average woman is designed to approach life with a cutthroat attitude. Its sickening.
questions for women in architecture
i was reading various articles about ole scheeren's departure from oma and noticed one reason he gave for leaving was to "live a more balanced life." he worked at oma, a notorious pressure cooker, for 15 years, relocated halfway around the world, did some great projects, and is now what, 38 or 39? still young, by all accounts, and able to take any path he wants. my question is this--do women in this profession see this as a valid career trajectory? would you set aside this time in your life to focus so singlemindedly on your career, maybe leave your family, friends, culture for however long to relocate wherever work takes you, at the potential risk to your personal relationships, desire to eventually have a family, etc.? have you passed up exciting opportunities elsewhere to invest in a relationship/marriage/children, etc. ? basically, is this realistic for anyone, or does it privilege single men? what do you think?
if you respond to this, please state your age. i'm 34.
It takes a special type of person to do that, regardless of their gender. I think everyone enjoys the benefits of work/life balance. Men like having friends and families too you know...
I am a 24 year old male. I agree with Alexi, it definitely takes a special type of personality to pour all their energy into their career. I have very little experience in the profession, but that little bit made me realize what I want out of life.
I read about Ole Scheeren, that he is going to marry his current girlfriend - a Chinese actress, may be that's why he wants to stay in China and set his own practice.
of course, you are right...but those 'special' people obviously want balance eventually too...and 'special' women can't always wait until they are 40...
of course, you are right...but those 'special' people obviously want balance eventually too...and 'special' women can't always wait until they are 40...
elinor - absolutely it's a valid option. I'm 36 and did it for 12 years. While I don't own a home or a couple of vehicles, don't have children, etc, I also don't have the financial debt and have a wealth of incredible life experiences, which had definitely helped my design skills. I feel zero regret about choosing a "non-traditional" path. I chose to head back to my hometown at 34 and feel like if I had done this earlier I would have never felt comfortable being here.
I am also not the only female I know who has done this.
I'd say what all of the people I know who have chosen to take this route (male and female) have in common is an incredible support network. We know our friends and family will always be here/there. We continue to cultivate those relationships as we explore the world and our profession and also build new ones as we go which we maintain even when we're far away.
The traditional role of women getting married, having children, raising a family...well, that's each individuals choice. But for those who choose to focus on their career it's either not a priority or we realize all this can be done in our 30's and we explore the world and our career when we've got the energy of our youth!
It's not waiting if you're into what you're doing.....when you're not into it anymore, it's time to move on. That's what Scheeren's doing.
There are many people who never have children or get married and are satisfied with their lifestyle. It not so cut and dry. Some folks don't have kids until they're 50 or even 60. Basically, you make choices in life and those choices either support a family or don't. Architecture doesn't have anything to do with it.
There are so many different kinds of architecture firms out there, some of them (like OMA) don't support a work/life balance, but some do.
I agree with Alexi that gender doesn't matter when it comes to making the decision to devote yourself hardcore to your career. Some people do, some don't - I admit I've been essentially lazy about my career all along! The beauty of feminism is that women and men alike are now able to make decisions that work for them and their families, hopefully without judgement.
One of my personal catchphrases is that the workplace policies that are good for women are identical to the ones that are good for families. Men want to be able to spend time with their kids, go to soccer games, etc., not only women. It's just still somehow expected in our society that women will still shoulder the majority of the child/home issues, after having spent the time pregnant and on maternity leave too (that physical aspect isn't likely to change ever, if at all!).
That said, lots and lots of women manage to "do it all". An inspirational older woman architect I know, something of a mentor to me, sadly just passed away this week after having her own firm and raising a child for decades, and starting at a time when women in the profession were rare and faced major obstacles. Many, many women end up starting their own firms when they have young families - the flexibility of at least one partner being self-employed is really necessary for most, I think - I know I couldn't be doing it any other way.
BTW I'm 42, and had a child at age 36 - but like I said, I'm basically lazy. I probably should have achieved a lot more before having a kid than I did! But I have no regrets.
I think there is a problem with the acceptance of this kind of lifestyle as an inevitability.
I think that employers have a responsability/duty of care to employees when it comes to asking them to re-locate. It seems to be accepted that in order to get ahead you have to be prepared to go wherever, whenever.
Having said that remember that women are having children later its a part of our evolution as human beings, given that we live longer.
family and career are always, always going to be a major life conflict. i saw it in my mother who turned down a scholarship to cornell to do her phd in order to raise her children. as my wife and i prepare for our first child, i see us also having to make major career adjustments. it's a critical point, if not the critical point, in life that everyone who chooses to have a family must face. though i will say that having a partner that is completely sympathetic to you and will approach family as an equal partner makes these decisions a lot less daunting than if you had to make these decisions purely on your own. (i'm 32/male.)
Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make. If it makes any "modern" women out there feel less insecure...men can't hack it. I know because I've tried.
Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make. If it makes any "modern" women out there feel less insecure...men can't hack it. I know because I've tried.
...I'm a lousy mother and my husband is way better at parenting than I am.
I'm poking fun a bit, WinstonSmith, but honestly - people of both genders have excellent skills in some areas and terrible skills in others. Beyond incubating then breastfeeding the child, my husband has been a far better parent in every way: more patient, more watchful of safety, more observant of talents and traumas, more balanced and consistent, and a LOT more fun.
There are no universals when it comes to this stuff. It's true what jafidler said (congratulations! by the way, yay!): it's a critical changing point in life to have a child. But then again, if it works for the partner parents, one partner can continue to be completely devoted to his/her career with no change in schedule while the other takes on essentially all the child-rearing duties except the financial. If that works for that family, great. Most partners manage to find a balance, and it's also important to remember: it gets easier as the kid gets older. The first two years are total chaos, even in the best of circumstances!
Not all females want to get married and have children ya know? I have bigger ambitions than having a kid so that lifestyle suits me.
Honestly, what I said is universally true. Sure there are miniscule exceptions but GENERALLY it is absolutely true:
"Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make."
For one thing, my wife is a nurse and she takes care of the sick and dying.
She has noticed a universal pattern. In every case the women who are not afraid to die and are happy in their deathly sick circumstances are those who had and reared children.
Sadly, the opposite is also true, she has noticed that universally the women that are childless and didn't nurture/ raise a family during the years when the opportunity was available are unswervingly miserable in their final years/ months/ moments.
I have noticed a lot of superb genes in the rank and file of this miserable profession that are going to waste in the best years of potential childbirth and rearing.
Children and a healthy marriage are a much better investment than "mastering" the latest software tool. Studies show that in the long, long run such families with the father working and the wife saving money on daycare actually end up much better off, financially speaking, in the long term.
interesting discussion...funny that some people automatically equate a desire for a relationship/children with a 'traditional' marriage+house+2 car+debt set-up...people can also have nontraditional lives that include these things...lots of architects have life/work partnerships...and kids are among the most nontraditional creatures around! (btw, i think alison smithson had 5.)
chaos--your trajectory more-or-less mirrors my own, except that i found it less personally fulfilling. i think my point of view is more along the lines of elisabeth's comment. people in all sorts of fields are recognizing the advantages of a healthy work-life balance, and fighting for it, but in architecture there is still this appreciation for this gung-ho, heroic, pull-out-all-the-stops-for-your-work enthusiasm. judging from my own experience, i'm not convinced it leads to more (or better) work. in all areas, from architecture school to office work (even the hands-down crappiest offices seem to expect you to work above and beyond!) this is valued. it's an affectation of the profession, more than anything else.
and believe me, i love what i do and plan to do a lot more of it!! this really shouldn't be read as some sort of embittered architect complaint.
"Not all females want to get married and have children ya know? I have bigger ambitions than having a kid so that lifestyle suits me."
What could be a bigger ambition than birthing and raising the next generation?
When you or I are dead and gone the only thing we will leave behind is our children and grandchildren.
"What could be a bigger ambition than birthing and raising the next generation?"
MY success,fame,money etc.
"When you or I are dead and gone the only thing we will leave behind is our children and grandchildren."
There is one thing I want to leave: MY NAME.
I don't give a shit if my "genes" survive.Now stop trying to convince me otherwise and get a life.
winstonsmith, i hope you are kidding about the bigger ambition of birthing and raising the next generation, b/c that is practically insulting.
having children is not the only thing we leave behind...and it does not have to be the only legacy that a woman has.
if you relegate your GREATEST ambition to having and raising children, then you are grossly NEGLECTING the next generation.
i would hope that we are more responsible for the next generation than to limit their futures to simply procreation.
So can someone tell me the name of the Architect who "designed" the Pyramids?
And, what are the realistic odds that your name will actually still be around in 100 years or more if you don't have children to pass it on? And will it even mean anything if it is still around?
Even Gehry is just a blip on the radar screen of time and history (although its difficult to grasp the bigger picture in scale of time most often).
I am much more grateful for the inheritance my ancestors gave to me than I am for some stupid chunk of stone or metal shaped into a building. Plus, I have records, names, faces, biographies going back thousands of years.
Procreation is the easy part. THe real work (enter the ambition that is required) is the work and sustained effort to do a quality job of nurturing one's offspring. Much more difficult (and rewarding if the effort is made) than what this profession can ever hope to pretend to offer.
it's not just about having kids though, kids are fine if you want to have them, but it should not be your SOLE goal in life to pass on your name...
YOU can make a difference in the world beyond just having children and raising them with morals and values. [sounds cheesy yes, but seriously]
try volunteering, try traveling more, try something new and seeing where it takes you.
the POINT of this conversation is to discuss situations where you balance life and work and to that goes MUCH FARTHER than simply having kids in our profession.
if you want to have kids great, if you want to adopt even better, but PLEASE do not sell me the "the only happy people in life are the ones that have kids to carry on their legacy" b/c THAT IS ridiculous.
HOPEFULLY my legacy extends beyond my child-rearing capabilities -- b/c there is alot more to me as a person, and as a designer than just if i can birth and raise children.
So what is your inheritance you received worth without culture? Buildings are much more than "stupid chunks of stone or metal". Why are you even in architecture if you care nothing about contributing ideas or making some contribution to society and culture? Hopefully we're into architecture for something more than just to make our name last. Nothing physical, including buildings, can possibly survive the epochs to come but ideas can last beyond physicality. Isn't this at least as important (to some of us) as having children.
Also, the architect of the first pyramid of giza was Hemiunu.
Easy, listen to your instincts, be true to yourself, have no regrets, and don't feel pressure to conform!
No really... look into having some eggs frozen if you think you might want kids later.
The way I've always seen it is this...having a child has never been a priority for me. As I've entered my mid-30's it's become less so. Although I've always said that if I entered a relationship with a man who I believed would be long-lasting and if having children was important to him I would be more than happy to consider it.
Again, as I've reached my mid-30s and as I've been a smoker half my life, I would be more apt to consider adoption than having a biological child. Either way, even though I've never had the desire to be a full-time mother, I know I would love my child the same as if I had always wanted this.
My friends children are where I put my energy. It frees me to live my life as I wish but I also spend copious amounts of time cultivating my relationship with them. They are as important to me as if they were my own and they are the beneficiaries on all my life-insurance policies and for my will. Their future is important to me.
I've also spent alot of my energy cultivating and continuing my relationships with those who have been/are important to me. My friends are my family and I am part of theirs. Both sides appreciate what we bring to the relationship...their more traditional roles of family, house, 2 cars etc, and my much less traditional role of exploring the world as a single, no-child female.
My desire to live this way makes me no less of a woman, nor does it mean I will be less happy/satisfied on my death bed. I don't believe that having children is what makes those women WinstonSmith spoke about satisfied, I believe it was the relationship they had with them. While my relationship with my friends, my family, and their children true is NOT the exact same as they have with their children, it is still truly satisfying for my expectations.
Again, if the desire for having children DOES appear in my life as some point there is the option of adoption. And by this I do not mean adopting a new born, an infant, a toddler...but rather, adopting a child who is somewhat older as who want's to be 60 with a toddler running around the house!
I'd much rather have some nice human beings as my kids than leave behind pyramids.
But there's no value in stretching the argument to extremes because, let's just face it, most of us wouldn't create pyramids anyway, kids or no kids, paradox included (you sound very young paradox, btw).
but if I'm lucky to have kids I would like to have some achievements by then because I think it's one of the most enduring lessons you can pass down to your kids, to have a life and a passion of your own.
Well-said, Chaos. Every time the implication is made that having children is somehow the "most important" thing people can do it diminishes all the other important effects we have on other people's lives who are not our offspring.
Some people have a strong drive to reproduce via children. Some have a strong drive to reproduce, essentially, with a piece of built material culture (building, art). Some people - like authors - have a desire to have their words outlive them.
The point of feminism is that we are all free to pursue the life goals that are important to us and are able to be in balance with the well-being of those we consider family.
Back to the initial post: I worked at a firm that had one female partner out of three, and two of the partners had just started having kids when I joined the firm. For both those reasons it was an exceptionally family-friendly place to work, and a life-work balance was valued. We all worked very very hard, but within reason.
I'm young enough to pursue my goals and old enough to know what I want in life.Thanks.
"And, what are the realistic odds that your name will actually still be around in 100 years or more if you don't have children to pass it on?"
Well...if you are traditional and believe that a woman should take her husbands last name only, then your daughter won't be passing on her name... So then is it pointless for her to procreate?
People should chose the path that fits them best. Some people shouldn't be parents and know this. And some people can't have children-I have many elderly aunts and uncles that never could have children-and when they died, they were happy and fulfilled in life anyway. They made a point, as someone said above, to make the relationships in their life worthwhile. That is what is important, regardless of whether or not you are a parent. I know parents who won't be remembered by their children b/c of the shitty job they did in raising them.
And for me growing up, my mom left college to raise children-going back to work as we got older. But my entire life, I knew she had left college, doing something she had loved (art major) and was never able to return b/c of us. Now, she is an amazing mother, and always showed us enormous amounts of love, but I was always aware that a piece of her was missing-that there was something out there that she didn't get to pursue that left a hole in her soul. And I knew at a very young age that I wasn't going to do that. That I would pursue my dreams, and then if it came later in life and I was ready I would have kids.
Now I am 34 and finally done with my masters and working at a job I love. And so now we are thinking of kids, but I will continue working at the job I love, b/c that also fulfills me and I want my children to know that they can pursue what they love and still love their children and be passionate about that as well.
The point of the rant is that there is more than one choice, and you can't prescribe your ideals onto someone else. So find what YOU want to do and do that.
there is massive gap between selfishness and selflessness. Parents that sacrifice everything like the tinydancer's mother in the preceeding example understand this. Those that aren't willing to lay it all on the line...well, you simply can not have it both ways. At some point your children WILL know if they were the priority and got the gold or if they were close runners up and were given second place.
And, for the record, I didn't make the rules (so please don't waste precious time turning this into a browbeating session to "modernize" WinstonSmith). This principle has always been true and will always remain true whether anyone likes it or not.
Oh Piggy, Piggy, oops I mean Winston, Winston.....
Winston, you said: I am much more grateful for the inheritance my ancestors gave to me than I am for some stupid chunk of stone or metal shaped into a building. Plus, I have records, names, faces, biographies going back thousands of years.[/i[]
But a lot of people don't feel this way about their heritage, a lot of people [i]despise their heritage and are proud of their ability to break away from the tradition into which they were born.
I'm personally proud of my roots, but I realize that not everyone is like me. You can say "this principle has always been true..." but that's only "true" for your own worldview. Other people think differently, and THAT is true "whether anyone likes it or not".
Oops, tag chaos! Sorry.
Gravity and the overarching importance of the family are both eternal laws of the Universe.
I am sad & sorry that others don't know what its like to have an awesome family and to be proud of their heritage and the fame of their dead relative's deeds.
Of course some people come from crappy families. But every single one of us can choose to reverse unhappy trends in family life in our own generation, if we so choose.
But it is like a garden, ground must be prepared, seeds planted, care taken to maintain the right atmosphere for healthy growth, bugs and microbes that threaten to drain the energy from positive growth must not go unchecked, and then the harvest must be timed properly.
As someone alluded to procreation in this thread before..."planting the seeds" is really the easiest, and most obvious (and frankly, fun) part. The bulk of the work, "ambition" comes with what is just plain and simple hard work but the rewards are totally worth it. And not every garden is perfect but by trying the garden can be heaps and heaps better than it would otherwise be without actively tending to it with a mind to reap the harvest down the road.
It does get frustrating to observe so many genes with such gorgeous potential going to waste in the ridiculous pursuit of a fleeting opportunity for fame and fortune.
After 35 years old the chances of having a baby with Downs Syndrome like quadruples exponentially and I think the average age for the onset of menopause is 45 or something like that. Most women are happiest having and rearing children. There are exceptions. It is just such a shame that many of the brightest and generally most beautiful young women in society choose to waste away their genetic potential and enduring happiness chasing professional pursuits, esp. something as ridiculous as the latest architectural "theory" that will certainly come and then go and then be gone forever twenty years from now.
Winston: Spoken exactly like a man who has a vested interest in more women staying out of the career path - on another thread you're telling people to stay out of the architecture path.
Good luck with your worldview.
LB,
Do you wear trousers?
D
wow sexist much.
there's a difference between fact and belief. and confusing one with the other is what often leads to war.
Jesus, Buddha, and many other influential people never had families. They weren't after fame or personal glory, but their effect on humanity is still felt today. No one is less than or better than if one has a family or not. To have a family is great, but to have no family is equally so.
and people only fight about ideas they're not sure about.
Facts have no need of defending since it's obvious. Like if it's sunny out, you don't have to defend your statement that it is in fact sunny, cause it's obvious. Those are really the only things you can know for sure are facts. mundane things like "pass the salt"
The rest are a matter of opinion, customs, and conditioning which are not necessarily "universal". To proclaim otherwise is a recipe for conflict and ignorance, as we've seen over and over and over and over again.
Who says you can't have a life and pursue your career goals and still have happy, well adjusted children. Ever heard of the phrase "helicopter parents"? it is possible to do too much for your kids. That is one reason we are raising so many self centered young adults who need constant hand holding and positive reinforcement. Parents raise children to be adults. That means they have to learn to make their own decisions, keep themselves happy, learn to have good relationships with people their own age, etc. It does not mean you need to be circling around your child every minute of his life waiting to catch him if he should be a bit shaky, fight his battles with the soccer coach who refuses to see how skilled he is, and argue with the teacher who gives him a c for mediocre work. You can however, be a great role model for your child and show her that it is possible to have a job that you enjoy that fulfills you, is good for society, and makes you self supporting.
"Having and Raising good children is the best investment any woman can make."
I'd just like to point out that I agree with this statement IF you replace "woman" with "person". The fact that you stated that it's the most rewarding thing for a woman to do makes me question your perspective. To tack onto LB's statement, after gestation and lactation, there is really nothing that a father can't provide to the child.
Someone from either team has a better chance at fame and success if they devote all their energy to that goal. As I have said on other, similar threads, our society is comfortable with the concept of a man pursuing career and family with the help of a supportive spouse at home. It only gets complex when a woman wants the same.
Oh, you all are being such girls.
I don't suffer from gender inequality. I suffer from equine inequality. You could even say inequinality.
This is because I was born a unicorn.
interesting responses - however I see 2 basic types of people here: 1. the hardcore career type who could care less about having kids, 2. the family type, who has made a conscious decision to have kids and juggle work somehow, just not as intense as the "hardcore career" type.
I present a 3rd type. I had my first kid during my 5th year in college. I started my first job in architecture being a mother. I also always believed that I had what it took to "make it", i.e. attain fame and peer recognition for being a great talent.
I am now 34 (almost 35), with 3 kids and a husband, a house, and a dog. I have continually worked my a$$ off to prove to the world and to myself that I can "do it all". And yes, I have accomplished a LOT. Have I worked for famous starchitects? No. I don't believe Starchitecture firms allow for any type of family life, plus their salary structure would not have sufficed to afford 3 kids in daycare. However I have won my firms many many design awards. This was only possible thanks to my very supportive husband, who knew he married an architect and understood what that meant (many all-nighters, doing what it takes to get the job done). He doesn't like it, but he tolerates it, and he is proud. And we do take turns, as he also has a career that needs dedication. We have to work as a team, and without flexible work schedules, we would not be where we are today.
But for those women who think you have to make a choice - you don't. But you have to make wise decisions and try not to be "the perfect mom". I don't participate in the PTA, I don't bake every weekend, my kids are not in any after-school clubs etc. My career simply doesn't allow for that much time off. But they are perfectly happy, well-adjusted kids, who are very smart, and who understand how hard their parents work, and why, and that having a job is not the same as having a careeer.
Will I ever be "famous"? Not sure, I'm still young and my kids will be in college and out of the house by the time I'm 45. I think that will give me plenty of time to open my own firm, make a real name for myself (beyond a great local reputation) and leave the mark that I always wanted to leave in this profession.
And after I have achieved my "fame", it probably won't mean as much as it did before I achieved it, and then I will have my family to spend the rest of my retirement with.
It's all about balancing what life throws at you. You can plan all you want, but you might not be happy with what you've ended up. Career planning is great and so important, but don't forget that just because you might start a family, doesn't mean that you have to give up your career. You just have to make some adjustment. Success is relative and means different things to different people.
thank you yarchitect for that excellent post! I wish I knew more women like you...
I wish I knew more women like yarchitect too. Every woman I worked with in the last 8 years that got pregnant, quit. Some tried to come back, but never did.
Excellent post, yarchitect.
thanks, ladies. Don't get me wrong, it's a very tough balancing act, and most of the time, I don't feel like I'm doing a very good job balancing anything. Usually, the family suffers, while work gets done. Sometimes, work just has to take a backseat. But if you have a good employer, they will see that. Of course chances are most of us work for a-holes. It is a very male-dominated profession still, and my male counterpart has received the same promotions and benefits as I have without having deserved any of it. His skill set is probably 1/3 of mine (and he's older!!), he simply delegates, sticks to 40 hours, does not offer to help, and prefers to hide in his corner office. He has no design skills, no presentation skills, no 3D skills, and is strictly a PM who delegates. I do it ALL from pre-design through CA. But at the end of the day, we are being kept at the same level for political reasons (title AND salary!!)
It takes thick skin to endure this year after year, and I've known a couple of women who ended up leaving or quitting, because it got to be too much, pressure from the client, pressure from the principals, and unfair competition within the office with a lack of recognition where it matters most. It is a real problem, and what I've found with women who quit after getting pregnant is that they were unhappy to begin with, and the baby gave them an excuse to just turn the other way and walk away from the pressures of this profession.
It's definitely not a family-friendly job, and I think it is getting worse, as clients are becoming more and more demanding, shorter deadlines, smaller fees, bigger expectations. Because there is always another firm who will do it for less. And who suffers? The staff.
I've thought many many times about leaving the profession. So far I'm still in the game. I usually go through my ups and downs, and when I'm down, I'm usually "stuck", so quitting isn't an option (financially). Then the next thing I know, I have a new project, and it's fun again.
Another consideration is switching to Interiors, rather than base building. Interior projects tend to be smaller and shorter. It is less strenuous on a person, and typically a more manageable stress level, which makes for a more family-friendly work-life balance.
For those women contemplating leaving architecture, maybe switching to interiors is a better option? You could have your cake and eat it too? If that makes you happy, that is.
Interior design seems like a better option (less stressful+better salary) but I interned at an interior design company for a month and I didn't like it. I'm just not interested in choosing curtain colors.Besides...there is too much estrogen flowing in those offices,I may get cancer.
The interior designer population is 90% women+10% gay men.Not MY thing.
But if it is something you may like doing I say go for it or maybe there is something called interior architecture which is different than interior design?
start your own firm, yarchitect. You will not regret it. It is easier when your kids are young. I started a firm out of my house when my youngest was 4. It will give you lots of flexibility with schedules and working around family issues. You will probably earn more than working for a firm. And the tail end of a down turn in the economy is one of the best times to do this. I started in 93 at the end of a bad downturn (not this bad, though!) You will be poised to grow as the economy turns around.
Women are nurturers by nature. They are generally allow much easier access to being taken advantage of in any cutthroat economic situation, esp. in architecture.
I can't stand the men who take advantage and I can't stand the women who act as if the average woman is designed to approach life with a cutthroat attitude. Its sickening.
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