In my research I came across a statement from an economic expert who said,

"On black monday (late 80's I think) 50% of the age group who was thinking they were about to retire changed their minds on that one day and never were able to retire"

I'm thinking that this current economic meltdown is much much worse so I think its reasonable to conclude that the baby boomers are all very very scared right now and have cut off all opportunities for the younger set out of desperation and the attempt to defend their territory.

I have stopped worrying about the baby boomers and begun worrying about the "Greatest Generation Ever" and if they would ever retire? There are a lot of architects in their dotage.

For the most part I am seeing small practitioners / owners fade away at the age of 75.

If boomers are 46-65 in 2010. They still have a long way to go. Don’t wait for them to die. Get proactive. Hang out your own shingle and build your own better mouse trap.

My problem is navigating the labyrinth of the IRS.

I know that I can't compete with the big firms/ unions that have full time accountants to keep their firms out of hot water with the IRS thugs.

Look folks -- this paranoia about baby-boomers (or whoever) is a non-starter. Where is it written that you're 'entitled' to their position in the firm?

If you're really worried about your own future and some aging hippie blocking your way, you need to stop thinking like you're always gonna work for somebody else. Arrange your career so that you always have a reasonable shot at starting your own firm. Either way, you're protected -- if you've done what you need to do so you can peal away whenever you want, then the firm where you work will realize you're partner material and deal with you appropriately. If not, you can haul your ass off on your own and hang out your shingle. It's the people who wait for somebody else to feed them work that need to really worry.

I will say that most of the baby-boomers I know already have addressed the generational transition in their own firms and are taking steady steps to bring along promising talent and transition their shares to a new generation in an orderly manner. If you don't do that, then - when the time comes to retire - there's nobody ready, willing and able to buy the firm and an outside purchaser's not going to be interested if there not someone to facilitate the transition for 5 years or so.

How to deal with the IRS and the unions distant? The market is hardly free these days with the leverage these behemoths give to the larger firms. How to hang out a shingle and survive is my question.

I've read many a book on the topic of "How to start and operate a firm" but they all seem to state the obvious...like when you actually could be a sole proprieter 25 years ago.

Piggy,

All firms big and small need to deal with the IRS. The IRS is your silent partner in your business. Just know that you are giving them 15% of whatever you pay yourself in self employment taxes.

If you search the forum there are many articles about starting a firm. If you search for it, there are budgets and operating exspences that you can use to figure out your overhead. If you search for it there are great discussions on marketing your firm and how to get business.

There are some great books to buy as well. My favorite is Staying Small Successfully. by Frank Stasiowski.

Remember you are there to create value for your client. Not the other way around.

Good Luck!

Sage advice thanks dsc_arch!

I've heard that argument before. My counter is that the demand for Architects is down to a level where the only way to reach equillibrium is for the supply to be pared back, i.e. retirements.

If every X'er that wanted some boomer's Principal position were to start their own firm we'd be awash in Architect's more than ever...causing further damage to fees, and by extension, our income.

barry is saying something that I've heard over and over and over amongst the "waiting in the wings" registered architects in mid-to-large firms. Recently a 65+ principal I've worked with decided to postpone retirement. This was said to be a good thing. If he were bringing in new clients, yes, but servicing established clients who have had their own in-house turnover making the original relationships irrelevant doesn't compute. Maybe someone more senior myself can explain.

One boss that I had used to talk about being promoted to partner before age 40. Said that he had no idea what he was doing at the time, etc. That same person also is quite paranoid of liability, getting sued, etc. Hence, he is quite reluctant to empower anyone and generally came across very controlling. Quite possibly because he was promoted to such a high position with little experience early in his career. Is that a generational difference. The WWII generation was given so much responsibility at such a young age that they generally were fearless about passing the responsibilities on, while the boomers struggled with that and hence are more timid about doing the same?

aquapura said, "Is that a generational difference. The WWII generation was given so much responsibility at such a young age that they generally were fearless about passing the responsibilities on, while the boomers struggled with that and hence are more timid about doing the same?"

I've seen the same thing looking back over my experiences.

aqua - I think you're onto something

I've noticed that the best mentors were the people most secure in their careers - they knew they do good work, and aren't afraid to empower people to come up to a level that helps them do more. What I've been running up against with many senior people (boomers, I guess) is that they seem very insecure (especially with the new technology) and are holding very tightly onto whatever shred of competence they seem to think they have. This in turn keeps even the most ambitious individuals who work for them from advancing - not just within the firm, but in their careers.

I'm happy for the firms who are working to bring up the next generation of principals, but there aren't enough of these places out there.

I also think most Xers would much rather be working with other people towards a collective goal rather than hanging out our own shingles... I foresee a lot more collaborative practices in coming years - not many single practitioners.

If I were to work for myself I'd want to do it with at least one good partner. I'm not afriaid to admit that there are strengths and weaknesses in my own skill set.

toasterover / aquapura: the really powerful trends in the profession have not abated. one of those trends is the continued bifurcation of the profession into a) very large firms; and b) very small firms.

increasingly, the mid-sized firm finds it hard to compete with both a) and b). however, a) and b) rarely compete against each other.

if you want to become an owner in a large firm, you probably need to resign yourself to a long promotion ladder and having little real operational control. being a shareholder in a large firm is a lot like working for IBM while simultaneously owning shares of IBM -- they're connected, but one is a job / the other is an investment.

if you want a lot of operational control, think about working for, or starting, a small 'boutique' firm. While the risk/reward ratio in a small firm is entirely different from that of a large firm, it always will appeal to a certain segment of the profession.

the mid-sized firm is the most difficult place to be today. to compete effectively as a mid-sized firm, I really think you must establish a strong niche presence. that too has its own risks (i.e. lack of diversification) that this recession has driven home in spades.

given what I describe above, I think it will become almost impossible in the future for small firms to become large firms -- the gap in the middle is just too dangerous to traverse. this will serve to reinforce the trend already underway.

Most of my neighbors think I'm a Writter, as I'm often seen out walking the dogs during the day when most people are slamming away in the office. They see me coming and going all the time. I very seldom have anything in my arms so they just put two and two together and it added up to writter.

I have worked in medium sized firms small firms and as the only employee in one firm. I can tell you I was so glad to get out of the medium sized firm. It seemed like we were just spinning wheels. I never felt like architecture was happening. I enjoyed working as a single employee for two different Architects. One was a professor and well he really didn't have enough work to keep me busy. The other was a nice guy who was looking to retirement so was not interested in jumping into the use of computers. So I was able to play around alot with rendering and such but no computer time and I had already been touched by the bug. So when the economy kicked up I went back to work in a firm with computers.

Today my wife and myself working as equal partners seem to be surviving these difficult times. I think there will always be room in the profession for small practices. Our business model is most different than large firms. We are the everyone...so the buck stops here. This we have found over the years is something clients value.

bluegoose - mid-size - over 20? I think over 15 and you're no longer a small office...

I gave up working for large firms early in my career because I felt it was difficult to gain any kind of meaningful experience - I wasn't interested in working up the corporate ladder to become partner. I wanted to be in the trenches - doing everything on the project... small offices are fun, but it all depends on who you're working with. the large offices it matters more what you are working on and who your immediate boss is. maybe this is a typical gen X trait, but I care more about who my coworkers are rather than the type of project I'm working on. I want to show up to work and be happy to see these people - to work together to solve problems. With a tight team, it's effortless.

I think often the issue is that this kind of atmosphere is alien to the boomers - they are uncomfortable with the idea of teamwork as Xers know it - this allowing of multiple perspectives to infiltrate the design and management of the project. Boomers don't see us as ambitious because we aren't clamoring over each other to get to the top of the heap... we like working together and sharing information, and I think they unrightfully see this as a sign of weakness rather than an asset.

back to the original intent of the thread - I haven't heard of any retirements coming down the line - my boss was planning on retiring within the next couple years, but he just signed an additional 5-year lease on our current space.

toasteroven said,

"I think often the issue is that this kind of atmosphere is alien to the boomers - they are uncomfortable with the idea of teamwork as Xers know it - this allowing of multiple perspectives to infiltrate the design and management of the project. Boomers don't see us as ambitious because we aren't clamoring over each other to get to the top of the heap... we like working together and sharing information, and I think they unrightfully see this as a sign of weakness rather than an asset."

I think this is an extremely insightful statement and my personal experiences in the trenches would affirm this idea for sure.

I also think the contemporary IRS tax procedures promote the boomer's more individualistic pusuit of ego satisfaction.

A principal at MVE won't be retiring anytime soon.

www.ocregister.com/news/corporate-232882-fulwider-personal.html

While this economy definitely has presented some challenges, I'm still on track to retire in about 6 years. My firm is well positioned to carry on, with a new generation of shareholders starting to take the reins. They've really stepped up and accepted the challenges of managing and marketing the firm. We've facilitated their purchase of shares and they seem to be growing comfortable with their expanded responsibilties (although they're still getting used to the idea of personal loan guarantees).

My own plans are in reasonably good shape. My finances are fairly strong and I'm in the process of liquidating my real estate investments here and acquiring replacement real estate assets in the community where my wife and I plan to retire. I'm rebalancing my investement portfolio towards a more conservative, fixed income mix.

When I do retire, I may do some consulting but probably not with my current firm. They are well equipped to carry on without my continued presence. Of course, I'll stay in touch ('cause they'll still owe me some money) but geographically I'll be very far away. I plan to spend my retirement doing things I haven't been able to do very often these past 35 years. I'm looking forward to this new chapter in my life.

At one level, I feel very fortunate to be in this position. But, I also know that my situation didn't happen by chance ... this is what I've been working towards for a long time. I'm really only familiar with my own situation and that of some other local firms, but I think some of the harsh posts above about boomers not wanting to share and collaborate are misguided.

I agree, BlueGoose, about boomers - especially those in the architecture field - not being as homogeneously selfish as some posters might think. I'd also point out that I know quite a few 20-somethings who are borderline sociopathic in their sense of self-entitlement.

Please, all, let's not generalize. It's lazy thinking.

And I also agree that mid-sized firms - not only in our profession, but in all of them - are going to give way to the huge companies, even multinationals, and the tiny one- or three-person firms. A sole prop architect can easily work into his/her 80s if s/he so desires. And it's a long, slow profession.

Adjusting for location a mid-sized firm could be between 15-and 50 people. I agree with the posts above that a mid-sized firm needs to be the best in its niche to survive.

At the height of the market 2006 we had 12 employees. For our area that was a huge practice, especially since we do not pursue public work. Running a practice that size was hard. Not because of the employees, but because of the cash flow. A $45,000 per month pay roll has to be made even though your major client(s) bailed on paying that month. The stress about killed me.

It was a great learning experience. I had always wanted to grow the practice, have people buy in shares and continue to grow the firm.

While, I may change my mind down the road (I am only 40), I do not want to go back on that roller coaster. At this time I am having more fun designing and building our projects.

dsc_arch; some advice about cash flow: If you want to eliminate the stress, keep about three months of payroll in an interest bearing account, and get a line of credit. Yes, you will be losing out on some interest you could be getting keeping the cash liquid, but think of all they time you will save not worrying about cash flow, and the stress you will eliminate in your life. Of course, it means you have to not take the profit out of the firm for a while to build up the reserve, but think of it as part of your retirement! I have had my business for 17 years, and not once have I had to spend one minute worrying about meeting payroll. Priceless.

Way to go Blue Goose. I have a pretty good retirement fund set up too. I am totally not interested in managing my portfolio, so I pay a professional to do this, and his advice has been great- the last couple of years stock market ups and downs have had virtually no effect on my portfolio. You have been more successful than me in your transition plans, though. I would love to retire in the next couple of years, but have been having trouble getting the next generation to take over management responsibilities, mostly marketing. There is no one here who seems to be capable of being the 'rainmaker'. My mistake was hiring great people who had skills different than mine, not a replacement for me. How did you handle that? Is it a team that will be replacing you, or one or two people?

Thanks for the advise Archie.

At the time, we did have lines of credit. We just had more clients who decided it was better for them to take their chances in court rather than pay us.

We were able to sell an investment property and zero out our debts.

I am the rain maker for our small firm. It is a unique skill set and not everyone has the temperament. If you find someone who does, I have a lot of books-on-tape and reading suggestions for them.

dsc_arch -
If you're feeling generous, I wouldn't mind hearing some of your rain maker reading suggestions.

All I have are boiler maker suggestions.
hard-boiled at that.

Part of rain making is never stop. Every time we do it is at our own peril.

I am happy to share things that have worked for me.

For our firm Thursdays are marketing Thursdays. We spend the entire day prospecting, honing the web page, and networking with those outside of the AEC industry.

specific books that I look to:
Rain Making: Attract New Clients No Matter What Your Field ~ Ford Harding.

The Connectors: How the World's Most Successful Businesspeople Build Relationships and Win Clients for Life~ Maribeth Kuzmeski

The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It. ~ Michael E. Gerber

Focal Point: A Proven System to Simplify Your Life, Double Your Productivity, and Achieve All Your Goals ~ Brian Tracy

Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive: Outsell, Outmanage, Outmotivate, and Outnegotiate Your Competition ~ Harvey B. Mackay (Author)

The Secrets of Closing the Sale by Zig Ziglar

Good luck and happy reading!

Quite a list.
Thank you.

you are welcome.

Also, back to the topic, this is timely:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703525704575061212230194910.html?mod=WSJ_business_LeftSecondHighlights

: we identified several young professionals about 8 years back who we felt had the potential to become owners and eventually take over the firm. without making any promises to any of them, we began to suggest what we had in mind and what we thought each of them needed to work on in order to stay on that track. these discussions were initiated as part of our standard performance review / career development process. informally, we began to mentor them individually on the skills needed by partners. they knew they were 'annointed' but they also knew that their elevation depended totally on their continued growth and ability to prove that they could do the job required.

frankly, of the five original candidates we identified initially, two eventually washed out - they just were not willing / able to grow in the direction necessary. happily, even though there were some bumps along the way, the other three made substantial progress over the next five years. at that time, we offered them an opportunity to purchase a small amount of stock each. they've added to their holdings each year after. we have not necessarily offered each person the same number of shares each year -- those decisions are made on a case-by-case basis.

whether you start your own firm or become an owner in an existing firm, it takes some time to start thinking like an owner and to start accepting the full range of responsibilities that go with being an owner. not everybody will make it. one of the three we invited to own stock has had a really, REALLY hard time adjusting to these expanded responsibilities -- preferring to retain a Project Manager perspective, rather than the broader perspective of an owner. However, we're still working with that person and, in the end, I expect her to make the transition.

I have several other partners who are closer to my own age. one of the best decisions we made among ourselves was to change our shareholder agreement so that partners approaching retirement age are obligated to start selling a portion of their shares each year in the run up to age 65. They don't have to retire at 65, but they cannot own shares after they turn 66. This did two great things for us: a) it convinced the younger generation that we were serious about ownership transition and that we weren't going to cling to our shares until pried from our cold, dead hands; and b) it forced the founding partners to come to grips with the idea of identifying, and cultivating, successors.

We anticipated there would be some fall out among the initial candidates and that did happen. However, we started early enough and with a sufficient number of candidates that the process has been reasonably orderly and effective. This is not something that can be hurried ... it takes a lot of work and it's not easy.

Hope that's the sort of stuff you wanted to know.

Thanks Blue Goose. We tried the same sort of thing, probably on a smaller scale than you- our firm is only 32, with only two original partners. We haven't given up yet, but the four that we have been working with are moving slower than I anticipated. We are not even asking them to buy in, they are getting ownership gifted for the most part, but they have been slow to embrace the challenges of ownership. They keep wanting us to "teach" them everything, but some things you just have to do. For example, you can give someone a lot of advice about marketing, but eventually they need to just get out there and meet people. I worry that the first generation was entrepreneurial (my partner and myself) and this next generation is not, and that will hurt the firm long term.
Also, did yo have any issues between the three that will eventually become partners? Usually when you set up a business, you choose your partner(s), and in this case it is us putting together a team. One person has become the 'leader' because he is more outgoing than the others, but I am not sure his business skills are what it takes to be the actual leader.

If you have an old copy of the AIA Handbook of Professional Practice, 12 Edition, Section 2.61 (binder one of four page 297) discusses this at length.

Typically the first generation are the entrepreneurs, the second take a good thing and run it into the ground, and the third revives it.

BTW this should be added to the Rain Making reading list posted above.

Ownership transition is one of the hardest things for a firm to do well. Most folks don't have any experience of doing, let alone doing it well. I've worked for several practices that are in their 2nd or 3rd generation and witnessed their struggles first hand.

Bluegoose & Archie, you both seem to be handling the transition better then any place that I've worked at - so congrats and best wishes.

Over the past few years as a PM, I've set about developing an ownership mentality (and credit that as to why I survived several rounds of layoffs before jumping to teaching last year). My personal preference (if I return to practice) would be to join a firm at an associate level with a 5 to 8 year timeline for buying in. As a team player, I recognize that value of institutional memory and having a team that works well versus trying to build those aspects from scratch. I do seek to become a rainmaker, but only where I have the trust and freedom to pursue my own niche that will compliment the existing practice.

I've also learned how hard it is to try and change firm culture when the owner is resistant (after paying lip service to the idea) - so finding the right match will be a challenge.

BlueGoose - one question. How did you identify who you wanted to groom for ownership? I'm assuming you didn't just pick the most productive or profitable employees.

Advise on how to move up the ranks?

As someone who is registered and LEED accredited I've got that covered. (Most co-workers have little to no ambition to even take the ARE's) Have brought in several new clients, all be it small jobs, but it proves I have networking and personality skills to land work. Always get decent review comments about my on-the-job performance. So what's missing? Advise?

: I suppose everybody goes about this differently - it's unlikely there's one best way.

Nevertheless, we started by thinking about what characteristics the owners of a firm need to demonstrate to be successful. Those include, among others, a) the ability to bring in enough work to keep the firm going; b) the ability to manage clients in a way that will induce those clients to return; c) the ability to manage the work (and staff) in a manner that satisfies the client while simultaneously advancing the firm -- both economically and professionally; d) the ability (and willingness) to manage the enterprise -- understanding that the firm is broader and more complex than any one project; e) the ability to work effectively with other people in a variety of different settings; and f) an ability to assess, manage and stomach risk, at both the project and at the enterprise level.

It's doubtful that any of us at any age ever become truly expert at all six of the dimensions I outline above. So, we knew at the beginning that we were unlikely to find any younger staff who already could handle all of this. However, we did know these people well enough to understand a little about their innate abilities, their intelligence, their willingness to work hard and learn new things; their capacity for growth; their ambitions, etc.

Based on that understanding, we picked a group that seemed to have the best potential for rising to the challenges. As I said earlier, we were not successful in all of our choices -- that's probably to be expected. But, we worked hard to expose these people to things they needed to master; we made ourselves available to answer questions and help them solve problems they never encountered before; we gave them candid feedback. Some rose to the challenge like champs; regrettably, some didn't.

I can't emphasize enough -- there must be a close and open relationship between the two generations -- they must be able to talk candidly about what's going on and they both must recognize their common interests. Each generation must understand and accept what the other requires out of the transition. It cannot be a tug-of-war or it simply won't work.

Well said BlueGoose.

are you a mid-sized firm and do you have a specific niche?

If so at what stage of your firms growth did you decide to have a niche and is it in public work?

My working hypothesis is that for firms to get to any real size they must take on public work and then specialize in that work.

In our area there are a lot of school architects that are mid-sized and approach firm transition similar to your approach.

retirements get out the way, we coming through!

: yes -- we are a mid-sized firm and we focus on one specific aspect of commercial design. the firm started in that niche and we've never really been much inclined to expand into other areas. we work across an extremely broad geographic area. we do virtually no public sector work. when the economy is kicking over, we do great; when it's like this, I have a fair amount of time to spend on Archinect.

blue goose - how about you go sailing or something and give me your job!

sorry JS, already sold it to somebody else; besides, I don't own a boat.

LOL well if you change your mind about the boat, we could go into treasure hunting together
there is supposedly still 6 billion in treasure out there

LB - you're right - I'm generalizing.

I think many of us in our late-20s and 30s are simply tired of paying our dues, playing tech support, and wanting to move ahead in our careers. most of us don't quite have enough of a network, capital, and experience built up to start our own firms or play a more significant role in the office, but we're almost there - and instead of being patient, we're feeling like something is standing in our way... and we blame the old people.

this is probably the way it's always been - but I just can't help feeling that there are less opportunities to get ahead than there used to be.

My mistake was hiring great people who had skills different than mine, not a replacement for me. How did you handle that? Is it a team that will be replacing you, or one or two people?

I keep having to adapt my skill sets due to what is needed in a particular office. I could probably get really good at something specific, but I've had to wear so many hats in my career that I sometimes don't even know what I'm good at anymore. Definitely not the direction I wanted my career to take, but when you're hungry you'll do any kind of work, and I've managed to do pretty well dealing with whatever people throw at me - and this willingness to take on anything has kept me employed.

I wonder how many people like me are in your office - not doing what they are actually good at because they are filling some need? I'll bet there are a couple people who could be great at marketing - becoming rain-makers, but perhaps they've fallen into a specific role that you've created for them?

bluegoose - your firm sounds like a really great place to work. i've only experienced that level of commitment to staff growth at one of the several offices I've worked for. the reason I complain so much is that your behavior isn't the norm. I mean, I can't even remember the last time I had a performance review.

BG,

You give me hope that I can eventually grow the firm again and not have to deal with public work!

Toasteroven,
I saw the same thing. I never quite fit in the other firms I worked for. I was too brash, entrepreneurial and did not want to wait.

Early on I saw the writing on the wall that I was never going to make the cut anytime soon.

As soon as I got my license I started my own firm.

Even though it was the right choice for me, at 28, I was a bit to young, inexperienced in firm management (especially in setting fees), and under capitalized. Over the years I have paid for my mistakes manyties over.

But I have learned a lot, and have had fun along the way!

: It's always interesting how different people see the different sides of the same situation. Right now, our firm would be delighed to have some public work in the office. However, if you haven't been swimming in that pond regularly for many years, it's almost impossible to be taken seriously by public clients when a downturn occurs in the private sector.

: thank you for your kind words. I've received similar reactions to other posts I've made and always felt a little unsure why people react to our situation as they do. For us, the way we run our firm seems about as natural as anything can be and we don't understand why most firms don't behave similarly. But, after four plus years of visiting Archinect, I've learned that many, many firms don't seem to have a clue about the proper way to treat their staff.

An observation to the younger members of this forum: you complain bitterly here about the way you're treated in your offices. While I expect those criticisms contain a certain hyperbole that comes from inexperience, frustration and youth, I do accept that many firms may not be very enlightened when it comes to managing their human resources. Remember this when you move into positions of authority.

How a firm treats its staff is a matter of choice. Each new generation is under no obligation to haze the next ... we can change the way our profession operates ... it happens one person, and one firm, at a time.

Blue Goose, I wish I was more like you. You sound so sane and organized and rational. Everything you stated is required of a principal/owner is exactly dead on. Something toasteroven said resonates with me: he things in his late twenties he has paid his dues. He is still a babe in the woods! When I was in my late twenties working in a firm, I was pretty much acting as if I was an owner: i marketed the company, brought in major jobs, ran them efficiently, etc etc. Paying your dues is not just showing up and doing your job. You need to act like you have the job you want. In your example, we have given little seminars to every single person in the firm about marketing, and how they can help to bring in work as part of their every day lives (think who you meet at your kids soccer game!) In the past 5 years, we have only had one person bring us one lead.

Blue Goose, are you by any chance in retail? If so, congrats on making it thru the toughest year ever. Many firms did not survive.

Archie,

I agree everything and everywhere is marketing. However I find it hard to get staff to market in their own time: Chamber events and the what not. We even pay them to go - still no interest.

BTW I just got off the phone with a contact I made at the "daddy daughter dance" at my children school. An L.A. who has multiple clients who need an architect!

: no - not retail (shudder ! chills run up back !). Those guys really got whacked.

: a further thought about motivating people to do business development. I've observed that people rarely take marketing seriously until their paycheck or promotability is at risk. I think if you make it clear to people that they've risen about as far as they're likely to go without becoming a rainmaker, then some proportion of that bunch will get off their asses and kick it up to the next level. If you and others keep feeding them work and paying their salary, then they're not really helping to grow the firm -- they're just eating the fruit that somebody else put on the tree.

In my experience, people who make the leap to success in business development approach what they do every day as a "career" -- those who don't make the leap tend to approach each day as a "job" and a "paycheck".

People pursuing a "career" don't punch a timeclock.

Sorry to skip over everyone's comments but this stood out to me - "I think many of us in our late-20s and 30s are simply tired of paying our dues, playing tech support, and wanting to move ahead in our careers."

I would be lying if I said I didn't feel the same way once in a while. Not all the time, but sometimes and not necessarily directed towards those older than me because they're older. But here is a specific example:

On one project, the miniscule time I've put on Construction Documents was changed to General Overhead Time after finding that there was a lot of time put on specs and reports by my supervisor. While I have tremendous respect for this person, it was a bit frustrating to learn of this when I've had to on multiple occasion had to help with ridiculous things like "words eating words" (i.e. the Insert/Overwrite function), inserting images, headers/footers, bulk image renaming/sizing, etc. Or even creative ways to cut down on a lot of work. Hell, I would prefer just doing that kind of work myself, if it'll cut down on the ridiculous amount of time that person is spending on purely formatting so they can focus on actual content and we can all move on.

The supervisor is way passed his retirement age. But still, I wouldn't want to generalize that all older folks are this way. Or that there is some huge divide separating us as in "Them vs Us." This is the first time, though, that I've wondered if the level of unemployment would be different if architects actually retired.

One thing to remember kids, when being offered to buy into a partnership or stock offering is now you are buying all the problems that may come with it. You may be buying long term debt, defered benefits costs or even significant liability. I struggled briefly with the concept of generational succession but no one seemed to want to want to work with an older guy ( me ) when they could hang out their shingle instead, and I dont really blame them because thats what I did when I was younger. But as Blue Goose said, these are the rainmakers. They sell, they have circles of friends outside architecture and they get on the phone and hustle. Sadly, these types arent making past the colleges these days. We need more of them now more than ever.

damn, 2step -- you mean owning a part of the firm isn't just about doing design, and taking long lunches, and playing golf with your buddies, and driving that BMW and getting rich on the back of overworked, underpaid interns? now, I'm really depressed.

archie -

I think the vast majority of us started out as people who don't just punch in, but there are some environments that make you this way. There are places where I ended up just punching-in in order to keep my sanity, but I've always been active in finding ways to develop my career and figuring out what direction I want to go - and don't stick around these places for very long.

I'm definitely one of those people who tends to go the extra mile - but what's the point of doing more for a firm that isn't willing to support your professional development - or actively stands in your way?

toasterover: "what's the point of doing more for a firm that isn't willing to support your professional development - or actively stands in your way"

toaster - with the highest respect - this is "victim" talk. if you can't - or won't - move to another, more supportive, firm, then I think you have to adopt personal strategies to overcome these obstacles.

it's your career -- if you don't move it forward, you can't expect someone else, or the firm, to move it forward for you.