Air traffic control is where it is at. There is such a shortage you start with a 6-figure salary. Hours and stress level are probably about the same as architecture anyway.
yea all those careers sound super fun. CEO is pretty vague as well. Go be a doctor, lawyer, or financial manager. There is plenty of variability within that list. Do what you love....bottom line. If you don't enjoy it......tweak it until you do....and can feed your family.
I'm so sick of this obsession with money and status. Go get your mcmansion and you win.
I checked into dental school. With a BArch, all you need is another year of science, biology or similar, then 3 years. ALwats busy, have Wednesdays off, can sail or play golf or design homes for your friends.
I know a few doctors who wanted to be an architect but knew ahead of time the extremely bad conditions architects work under. So they became doctors and do architecture on the side. I know trough a revit class i took. Some of them even have a quite a few housing projects running at the moment, while some architects don't have nothing.
I hate to say it, but get out while you can. Save yourselves!! Through my career, 30 years, I've been laid off 4 times now. It is very hard on a family, and fortunately now I have insurance through my wife's job and no kids at home. If this had happened a few years ago, I would probaly be living out of my car, if it was paid off. You REALLY must ask yourself if it's worth it. This is a cycle that is not unique, except I hope for it's severity, and recurs about every 9 or 10 years.
To be fair, this thread started as a troll thread, diverted to an actual thread and then changed routes to be a thread about money and alternative careers which per Archinect thread posting policy would clearly violate at least 3 rules.
intexas, please don't be so negative. Through my career, 30 years, I have never been laid off. I have always been able to provide for may family, send my kids to college, live in a nice house, save for retirement, travel. I have been a partner in a firm where I was once on about 20% of my salary for four months, but overall, my salary has been pretty steady, and better than my expectations. Yes, I am in a 2 income household, and we are BOTH architects, but if I was the sole provider, I would be saying the same thing.
This is the worst business climate I have EVER seen for architects, but it WILL turn around. In two years, we will all be fighting over the same interns and experienced architects. Salaries will be higher because they will be more in demand because of those who dropped out of the profession. So if you love what you do, and YOU ARE GOOD AT IT, then stick with it.
There are jobs, they are just few and far between. Yes, this economy has been devastating for older architects and those out of school, and everyone in between, but things will improve. Most firm owners I know see things improving this year. It will take a while to hire, but it will happen. We are not the only profession that is hurting right now. Dentists are actually having a really tough time right now. Too many people lost their insurance and are putting off dental care.
archie, i am glad you've never been thru a layoff. It is horrible to say the least. I have colleagues as fortunate as you. Just saying my luck has perhaps run the other way, even though I have been an officer in 2 of the largest firms in the country. Unfortunately, about 3 in 10 architects in texas aren't as fortunate as you and are looking for work. I hear from them daily. 4 months at 20%, not bad. I've been 7 months and counting, and have colleagues closing in on a year without a check other than unemployment. 2 years before we are all employed could be devastating. Unemployment benefits, as of now only last for a year. I was just saying that it can be extraordinarily difficult for someone with 30+years experience, not ready to quit the profession, who has been VP level in some major firms, has numerous design awards, some national, plays well with others, loves what I do, yet is not seeing the upside of the profession as of now. The house will probably have to go on the market in about a month. Not exactly what they told us about in Pro Practice.
To respond to intexas and archie, I'm an architect w/ a bit less experience, +20 years. I've had many architects over the years warn me to the woes of being a practicing architect.
I enjoy teaching, but I question the ethics of encouraging younger folks to pursue this field, knowing what I know now.
Archie, it's great that you have had a successful, consistent career: may I ask if you feel your 30 year professional experience is the norm of all your classmates you graduated with, or is it more of an exception?
I would have to debate archie on the thesis that all will be well in 2 years, back to normal (I sincerely hope it is). In fact, I'll put out there it might actually get worse, as gov't spending decreases from the stimulus, more graduates hit the streets, and our tax base becomes even more unstable, I think it’s possible to see building activity in the doldrums for quite some time, like 5-10 years….
My advice to the earlier career folks, is yes, it is never a bad time to re-define yourself with your skill set, and you are not “coping out” if you adjust the idea of being a “practicing architect” into something else. As an example, I have launched my own building product and although it’s tough to “re-tool” my skill set initially, I use my experience as an architect every day, just in a different way.
Intexas, sorry to hear about your situation, I was laid off 1 year ago from my “corporate” gig as an owners rep, which took me 20 years to achieve. Which I may add, is a job which will never exist again.
Intexas, I used to work with the Army Corps of Engineers out of Fort Worth for DHS, I know those folks are busy, check http://www.usajobs.gov/, I would be happy to provide you some names in Fort Worth to talk to upon request (via e-mail).
Sorry for the lengthy post, but it’s an important topic, especially for the earlier career folks who are at a bit of a cross roads I think.
gibson, thank you very much!! I sincerely apperciate it. I'm actually from Ft Worth, so a chance to return there would be great. Not sure how the email would work, so let me know how to get in touch for the contacts. I'll check the web site in the mean time.
I think we may be at the bottom of all this even though I still hear of layoffs in our area, and very few, if any, hires. So those with jobs may be able to stay in architecture, those without jobs may definitely need to pursue other careers. I'm looking at everything I can, not just in architecture practice, as are all that I know, who are out of work.
archie, I would hope you will be able to muster a hire or 2 soon. Not sure where you are located, but please check, I'm sure there is someone really needing an opportunity to just get back to work. If like me, they will be extraordinarily grateful, and probably the best employee you'll ever have.
OK, one final note as any re-hiring begins. Employers are going to significantly lower offering salaries (because they can), I've already encounterd this, companies expect me to take a %30 paycut to come on board. Also they will staff up with the 3-7 year experience people first. I know i sound negative, but I actually think I am just being realistic.
If I do get into arch school, I think I'm going to try being a renovator/landlord who flips houses for profit and sometimes rents the homes. I mean people with less education has done this and I'm sure arch will be useful in this endeavor. plus i think it offers autonomy that working for other people don't. And people always need a place to stay. I think I'll even try it in between school, during the summers to pay for grad school. who knows? just need some common sense, i think. And Canadian real estate right now isn't as bad. still a good time to buy though (lower prices).
I know a person who graduated with a landscape architecture degree and has done this. He now has over 1 million dollars in real estate were he to sell all of them now. and makes pretty good bank.
If I don't get into architecture, I think I'll try my hand in health care. Get an EMT certificate so I can work as a paramedic right away, gain experience, while working on pre-reqs and MCATs.
Since I find just about everything interesting picking just one as my "calling" has been difficult, so right now I'm just looking to get a decent job. Hearing different view points has been helpful to be prepared for what's to come and plan accordingly. thanks guys and gals.
Paaserby, sounds like a great plan, an insight, I always recommend to anyone looking into a career path, go and work in that field first. Find a company which does what you are thinking of, and go work for them for a summer or two, maybe your landscape architect friend could use you. Good Luck!
I'm pretty worried that gibson is right about employers really undercutting salaries because they can take advantage of desperate job seekers. All I can say is that all of those people will be sending out applications for the first day they start working and will likely jump ship as soon as something with better (i.e. appropriate) pay comes along. It's going to be a long and ugly road to recovery.
intexas, I know it is horrible for those who are laid off. But every profession is having a tough time, not just architects. Lots of people are getting laid off in practically every field. 3 in 10 architects in texas are looking for work. That means 7 in 10 are employed. If someone loves the profession, they should stick with it. If not, then by all means, pursue another field, but there are not really any that are "recession proof", except maybe accountants. (they have lots of work when bankruptcies are high!)
I think I am about average for my colleagues. Most people who graduated with me, including my spouse and most of my close friends, have never been laid off. I can only think of a few in my class, actually, who have been laid off. That doesn't mean it was always easy- anyone who has ownership in a firm will tell you there are ups and downs. I know a few of my friends who are owners of firms are struggling, and have had to cut staff and hours. If you save money from the 'up' years to spend in the 'down' though, the average has been pretty good for me.
We actually hired three entry level people in the last quarter of last year, and we made an offer to a 55+ year old architect who just accepted and is going to start in a few weeks. We offered them the same kind of wages we always would. In our area a few years ago, the salaries were in some cases artificially high because of a few large firms who just threw money at people to get them (one of them just laid off about 30% of their staff, third round of layoffs, the other one is down to 25% of their original size...), so one of them had to take a pay cut, but I think the salary and benefits are pretty good. And we have never laid anyone off, so hope that means something too, and hope we can continue with that trend.
If you want to know where to look for jobs I would look at the small cities in areas that did not experience a boom- there is less of a pendulum swing the other way now. Places that never had a big growth spurt seem to be hurting less: there was not as much overbuilding. Also, older cities with lots of buildings that are of the age that renovations can not be avoided have some stability.
"I'm pretty worried that .... employers are really undercutting salaries because they can take advantage of desperate job seekers."
Three reactions to this post:
a) The economics of practice right now don't revolve around just unemployment. Clients clearly understand that work is scarce -- they are demanding, and getting, very low fees from firms. If clients can't get the fee they want from one firm, they go to the next one. This changes the equation with respect to a firm's operating cost structure. I think the reality is that firms are not so much trying to abuse out-of-work architects as they are trying to stay competitive from a cost standpoint;
b) Out of necessity, many firms already have their existing staff on reduced wages, compared to 18-24 months back. For a firm that needs to add staff, it's not practical add new labor at wage rates inconsistent with what they're paying existing staff;
c) Over the past 24 months (or so) the labor market pendulum has swung from a seller's market to a buyer's market. Back in mid-2008 I knew many firm principals lamenting what they felt to be outrageous salary demands of candidates responding to job ads. This may be the flip-side of that.
While this might be the case, along the way the rest of my expenses have not gotten any cheaper, in fact exactly the opposite has happened. So although I can appreciate that offices are low-balling bids simply to get work, I still require a certain salary in order to pay the bills and I am not going to lower that any just to get a job. If that means I am sitting out of work for a while, then I guess so be it. And again, what this will result in is a dissatisfied labor force that will be in and out of jobs as quickly as possible. What we have done is turned architecture into a job rather than a career.
I would be careful about looking for work in the small cities/non-boom areas. In many cases you will find that firms from larger nearby cities and states are competing for the same work all the small town offices are, which has now pushed the unemployment into the smaller towns. Since most of the offices relied on state and government work rather than private money, the jobs are all proposal based and open to any office that applies. Even if it requires a local office, all if takes is a hasty partnership with a local office to do CD's.
The positive end is that the introduction of outside architects helps to bring new styles into cities that are generally dominated by one or two firms that do the majority of the work. But the downside is now it has created unemployment in areas that normally have very little change in their unemployment numbers.
Well put ._.. I think you are starting to describe a hidden problem here, inflation. I think you might see this in many professions, reduced salaries while cost of living goes up. Some call it the “silent tax.” I suggest investing 30 min and watch this: http://www.iousathemovie.com/
File, I do agree to an extent. Yes, firms are lowering their fees, I've heard of many small firms complaining that the big firms are coming in to bid on small projects and undercutting them just to get the project (possibly at a loss the bids are so low). So, I agree it's business and not personal. But regarding architects salaries...I mean look, architects bill out in the 100-150$ range generally (I’m guesstimating). I work with lawyers that bill out in the 350-400$ range. Same level of education, and I would argue it is harder to become an architect. As the licensed folks know, you are accepting a tremendous amount of liability by signing and sealing drawings. So any discussions I hear regarding the current level of architect’s salaries I believe is rhetorical.
So the net result we are discussing, despite the reasons of the current dynamics, is this a career choice you would recommend to your nephew or niece who is 17 and deciding what to major in at college?
Now, Archie previously has stated he would recommend this career path for those who love it, and has described his professional experiences (I hope it’s OK archie if I paraphrase). My history and experience is more akin to Intexas, I’ve been laid off 3 times. As a background, I have an undergrad and graduate degree and used to manage large, public building projects for the Federal Government. I have worked with Pritzer winning architects, and I have my own awards and publications under my belt.
I think .._.. has a very accurate analogy that architecture has become more of a job than a career. My experience in traditional firms is that people are hired and let go on a per project basis and that has become the norm. This is also the experience of many of my colleagues in the NY and LA markets. I have worked for firms where they started to “outsource” the drafting to Mexico, just like you would computer code, because it is cheaper.
I wish I could be more encouraging and “hopeful” to the next generation, but I think that would be a disservice. I am trying to portray an honest, direct, assessment of what I have learned in Architecture in 20 years.
file - you raise some good points. It's easy here for some of the younger members of the forum to ascribe evil intent to firms that are merely trying to survive. While a few firms might take unfair advantage of the labor situation, in my view most firms are just doing what they have to do to stay in business. Most of the problems we face as an industry are the result of an inept and corrupt Republican administration - not the routine malfeasance of firm owners.
Most of the problems we face go well beyond the previous administrationand are 40 years in the making but nice try troll. Architects are part of the larger construction industry and that industry is under structural shifts we haven't seen since the imediate postwar expansion
2step: pray tell, do share your vast experience - educate us on the specifics of those 'structural shifts' that have greater impact on this current recession than the total economic incompetence of the Bush/Cheney administration.
The country is very much built outin the private sector whee arcitects are prmarly eployed, beyond renovation work there is an ever decreasing percentage of work not related to engineering and infrastructure. I don't see how bus is at fault for30 years ofcheap money leading to an asset bubble, if you want to blame someone start a new thread. The fact is we have all the inventory we need and then some in residential, comercial and retail and we will have to find new ways to service. In my market teaming with contractors for full service contracts seems to be the new normal.
Agreed. It's exactly this kind of political finger-pointing that has gotten us in this mess to begin with. The Republican vs. Democrat pissing war has gotten really old. Both sides just need to own up and admit they have both made mistakes before we have Civil War 2010.
Interesting dynamic in this thread: contributor "A" and allies blame firms for the tribulations of unemployed/underemployed architects; contributor "B" defends firms, suggesting they are reacting to economic forces beyond their control; contributor "C" supports "B" and suggests that the depth of the current troubles are the direct result of 8 years of poor, or nonexistent, oversight of the financial markets; contributor "C" gets abused for derailing the thread, while nobody abuses contributor "A" and his allies for their biases. odd, don't you think?
meanwhile, I'm still looking for a job. I commend and admire archie for his success in practice and ability to add folks. This is rare and wish I had more insight into his practice. I think. Also it points out that I believe for anyone considerng entering the field, that trying to start your own firm is imperative. I unfortunately wasn't able to make that leap, had a family and responsiblities that I couldn't risk, also a bit of cowardice on my part, but my point is that if you go into the biz, try to get out on your own ASAP.
Passrbyice, seems like a good strategy, go for it.
meanwhile, I'm still looking for a job. I commend and admire archie for his success in practice and ability to add folks. This is rare and wish I had more insight into his practice. I think. Also it points out that I believe for anyone considerng entering the field, that trying to start your own firm is imperative. I unfortunately wasn't able to make that leap, had a family and responsiblities that I couldn't risk, also a bit of cowardice on my part, but my point is that if you go into the biz, try to get out on your own ASAP.
Passrbyice, seems like a good strategy, go for it.
Mar 1, 10 9:32 am ·
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Any good leads on jobs?
my sources are failing
depends on your location. New York looks insane going by the postings on archinect
I heard of some more local layoffs today. So...in other words...no.
Just a wake up call.
1. Surgeons: $206,770
2. Anesthesiologists: $197,570
3. Orthodontists: $194,930
4. Obstetrician and Gynecologists: $192,780
5. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons: $190,420
6. Internists: $176,740
7. Prosthodontists: $169,810
8. Physicians: $165,000
9. Family and General Practitioners: $161,490
10. CEOs: $160,440
11. Dentists: $154,270
12. Psychiatrists: $154,050
13. Pediatricians: $153,370
14. Specialist Dentists: $142,070
15. Podiatrists: $125,760
16. Lawyers: $124,750
17. Natural Sciences Managers: $123,140
18. Engineering Managers: $120,580
19. Pilots: $119,750
20. Petroleum Engineers: $119,140
21. Computer and Information Systems Managers: $118,710
22. Marketing Managers: $118,160
23. Financial Managers: $110,640
24. Sales Managers: $110,390
25. Air Traffic Controllers: $108,090
It's time to change careers
I've actualy lost money for two years
I guess doing nothing would have been the better option
Air traffic control is where it is at. There is such a shortage you start with a 6-figure salary. Hours and stress level are probably about the same as architecture anyway.
harold-
yea all those careers sound super fun. CEO is pretty vague as well. Go be a doctor, lawyer, or financial manager. There is plenty of variability within that list. Do what you love....bottom line. If you don't enjoy it......tweak it until you do....and can feed your family.
I'm so sick of this obsession with money and status. Go get your mcmansion and you win.
I checked into dental school. With a BArch, all you need is another year of science, biology or similar, then 3 years. ALwats busy, have Wednesdays off, can sail or play golf or design homes for your friends.
I know a few doctors who wanted to be an architect but knew ahead of time the extremely bad conditions architects work under. So they became doctors and do architecture on the side. I know trough a revit class i took. Some of them even have a quite a few housing projects running at the moment, while some architects don't have nothing.
I hate to say it, but get out while you can. Save yourselves!! Through my career, 30 years, I've been laid off 4 times now. It is very hard on a family, and fortunately now I have insurance through my wife's job and no kids at home. If this had happened a few years ago, I would probaly be living out of my car, if it was paid off. You REALLY must ask yourself if it's worth it. This is a cycle that is not unique, except I hope for it's severity, and recurs about every 9 or 10 years.
Posting in a troll thread.
talking about current job leads isnt a troll thread
what's the difference between an intern and an internist?
$145,000. ;)
though i agree with voneckht; hearing architects bitch about money all the time gets pretty damn tedious.
To be fair, this thread started as a troll thread, diverted to an actual thread and then changed routes to be a thread about money and alternative careers which per Archinect thread posting policy would clearly violate at least 3 rules.
intexas, please don't be so negative. Through my career, 30 years, I have never been laid off. I have always been able to provide for may family, send my kids to college, live in a nice house, save for retirement, travel. I have been a partner in a firm where I was once on about 20% of my salary for four months, but overall, my salary has been pretty steady, and better than my expectations. Yes, I am in a 2 income household, and we are BOTH architects, but if I was the sole provider, I would be saying the same thing.
This is the worst business climate I have EVER seen for architects, but it WILL turn around. In two years, we will all be fighting over the same interns and experienced architects. Salaries will be higher because they will be more in demand because of those who dropped out of the profession. So if you love what you do, and YOU ARE GOOD AT IT, then stick with it.
There are jobs, they are just few and far between. Yes, this economy has been devastating for older architects and those out of school, and everyone in between, but things will improve. Most firm owners I know see things improving this year. It will take a while to hire, but it will happen. We are not the only profession that is hurting right now. Dentists are actually having a really tough time right now. Too many people lost their insurance and are putting off dental care.
really? I think it's if you're specifically soliciting a certain job....not asking the question of where there's work
archie- great comment. good to hear
archie, i am glad you've never been thru a layoff. It is horrible to say the least. I have colleagues as fortunate as you. Just saying my luck has perhaps run the other way, even though I have been an officer in 2 of the largest firms in the country. Unfortunately, about 3 in 10 architects in texas aren't as fortunate as you and are looking for work. I hear from them daily. 4 months at 20%, not bad. I've been 7 months and counting, and have colleagues closing in on a year without a check other than unemployment. 2 years before we are all employed could be devastating. Unemployment benefits, as of now only last for a year. I was just saying that it can be extraordinarily difficult for someone with 30+years experience, not ready to quit the profession, who has been VP level in some major firms, has numerous design awards, some national, plays well with others, loves what I do, yet is not seeing the upside of the profession as of now. The house will probably have to go on the market in about a month. Not exactly what they told us about in Pro Practice.
To respond to intexas and archie, I'm an architect w/ a bit less experience, +20 years. I've had many architects over the years warn me to the woes of being a practicing architect.
I enjoy teaching, but I question the ethics of encouraging younger folks to pursue this field, knowing what I know now.
Archie, it's great that you have had a successful, consistent career: may I ask if you feel your 30 year professional experience is the norm of all your classmates you graduated with, or is it more of an exception?
I would have to debate archie on the thesis that all will be well in 2 years, back to normal (I sincerely hope it is). In fact, I'll put out there it might actually get worse, as gov't spending decreases from the stimulus, more graduates hit the streets, and our tax base becomes even more unstable, I think it’s possible to see building activity in the doldrums for quite some time, like 5-10 years….
My advice to the earlier career folks, is yes, it is never a bad time to re-define yourself with your skill set, and you are not “coping out” if you adjust the idea of being a “practicing architect” into something else. As an example, I have launched my own building product and although it’s tough to “re-tool” my skill set initially, I use my experience as an architect every day, just in a different way.
Intexas, sorry to hear about your situation, I was laid off 1 year ago from my “corporate” gig as an owners rep, which took me 20 years to achieve. Which I may add, is a job which will never exist again.
Intexas, I used to work with the Army Corps of Engineers out of Fort Worth for DHS, I know those folks are busy, check http://www.usajobs.gov/, I would be happy to provide you some names in Fort Worth to talk to upon request (via e-mail).
Sorry for the lengthy post, but it’s an important topic, especially for the earlier career folks who are at a bit of a cross roads I think.
gibson, thank you very much!! I sincerely apperciate it. I'm actually from Ft Worth, so a chance to return there would be great. Not sure how the email would work, so let me know how to get in touch for the contacts. I'll check the web site in the mean time.
I think we may be at the bottom of all this even though I still hear of layoffs in our area, and very few, if any, hires. So those with jobs may be able to stay in architecture, those without jobs may definitely need to pursue other careers. I'm looking at everything I can, not just in architecture practice, as are all that I know, who are out of work.
archie, I would hope you will be able to muster a hire or 2 soon. Not sure where you are located, but please check, I'm sure there is someone really needing an opportunity to just get back to work. If like me, they will be extraordinarily grateful, and probably the best employee you'll ever have.
OK, one final note as any re-hiring begins. Employers are going to significantly lower offering salaries (because they can), I've already encounterd this, companies expect me to take a %30 paycut to come on board. Also they will staff up with the 3-7 year experience people first. I know i sound negative, but I actually think I am just being realistic.
If I do get into arch school, I think I'm going to try being a renovator/landlord who flips houses for profit and sometimes rents the homes. I mean people with less education has done this and I'm sure arch will be useful in this endeavor. plus i think it offers autonomy that working for other people don't. And people always need a place to stay. I think I'll even try it in between school, during the summers to pay for grad school. who knows? just need some common sense, i think. And Canadian real estate right now isn't as bad. still a good time to buy though (lower prices).
I know a person who graduated with a landscape architecture degree and has done this. He now has over 1 million dollars in real estate were he to sell all of them now. and makes pretty good bank.
If I don't get into architecture, I think I'll try my hand in health care. Get an EMT certificate so I can work as a paramedic right away, gain experience, while working on pre-reqs and MCATs.
Since I find just about everything interesting picking just one as my "calling" has been difficult, so right now I'm just looking to get a decent job. Hearing different view points has been helpful to be prepared for what's to come and plan accordingly. thanks guys and gals.
Paaserby, sounds like a great plan, an insight, I always recommend to anyone looking into a career path, go and work in that field first. Find a company which does what you are thinking of, and go work for them for a summer or two, maybe your landscape architect friend could use you. Good Luck!
I'm pretty worried that gibson is right about employers really undercutting salaries because they can take advantage of desperate job seekers. All I can say is that all of those people will be sending out applications for the first day they start working and will likely jump ship as soon as something with better (i.e. appropriate) pay comes along. It's going to be a long and ugly road to recovery.
intexas, I know it is horrible for those who are laid off. But every profession is having a tough time, not just architects. Lots of people are getting laid off in practically every field. 3 in 10 architects in texas are looking for work. That means 7 in 10 are employed. If someone loves the profession, they should stick with it. If not, then by all means, pursue another field, but there are not really any that are "recession proof", except maybe accountants. (they have lots of work when bankruptcies are high!)
I think I am about average for my colleagues. Most people who graduated with me, including my spouse and most of my close friends, have never been laid off. I can only think of a few in my class, actually, who have been laid off. That doesn't mean it was always easy- anyone who has ownership in a firm will tell you there are ups and downs. I know a few of my friends who are owners of firms are struggling, and have had to cut staff and hours. If you save money from the 'up' years to spend in the 'down' though, the average has been pretty good for me.
We actually hired three entry level people in the last quarter of last year, and we made an offer to a 55+ year old architect who just accepted and is going to start in a few weeks. We offered them the same kind of wages we always would. In our area a few years ago, the salaries were in some cases artificially high because of a few large firms who just threw money at people to get them (one of them just laid off about 30% of their staff, third round of layoffs, the other one is down to 25% of their original size...), so one of them had to take a pay cut, but I think the salary and benefits are pretty good. And we have never laid anyone off, so hope that means something too, and hope we can continue with that trend.
If you want to know where to look for jobs I would look at the small cities in areas that did not experience a boom- there is less of a pendulum swing the other way now. Places that never had a big growth spurt seem to be hurting less: there was not as much overbuilding. Also, older cities with lots of buildings that are of the age that renovations can not be avoided have some stability.
Three reactions to this post:
a) The economics of practice right now don't revolve around just unemployment. Clients clearly understand that work is scarce -- they are demanding, and getting, very low fees from firms. If clients can't get the fee they want from one firm, they go to the next one. This changes the equation with respect to a firm's operating cost structure. I think the reality is that firms are not so much trying to abuse out-of-work architects as they are trying to stay competitive from a cost standpoint;
b) Out of necessity, many firms already have their existing staff on reduced wages, compared to 18-24 months back. For a firm that needs to add staff, it's not practical add new labor at wage rates inconsistent with what they're paying existing staff;
c) Over the past 24 months (or so) the labor market pendulum has swung from a seller's market to a buyer's market. Back in mid-2008 I knew many firm principals lamenting what they felt to be outrageous salary demands of candidates responding to job ads. This may be the flip-side of that.
While this might be the case, along the way the rest of my expenses have not gotten any cheaper, in fact exactly the opposite has happened. So although I can appreciate that offices are low-balling bids simply to get work, I still require a certain salary in order to pay the bills and I am not going to lower that any just to get a job. If that means I am sitting out of work for a while, then I guess so be it. And again, what this will result in is a dissatisfied labor force that will be in and out of jobs as quickly as possible. What we have done is turned architecture into a job rather than a career.
I would be careful about looking for work in the small cities/non-boom areas. In many cases you will find that firms from larger nearby cities and states are competing for the same work all the small town offices are, which has now pushed the unemployment into the smaller towns. Since most of the offices relied on state and government work rather than private money, the jobs are all proposal based and open to any office that applies. Even if it requires a local office, all if takes is a hasty partnership with a local office to do CD's.
The positive end is that the introduction of outside architects helps to bring new styles into cities that are generally dominated by one or two firms that do the majority of the work. But the downside is now it has created unemployment in areas that normally have very little change in their unemployment numbers.
Well put ._.. I think you are starting to describe a hidden problem here, inflation. I think you might see this in many professions, reduced salaries while cost of living goes up. Some call it the “silent tax.” I suggest investing 30 min and watch this:
http://www.iousathemovie.com/
File, I do agree to an extent. Yes, firms are lowering their fees, I've heard of many small firms complaining that the big firms are coming in to bid on small projects and undercutting them just to get the project (possibly at a loss the bids are so low). So, I agree it's business and not personal. But regarding architects salaries...I mean look, architects bill out in the 100-150$ range generally (I’m guesstimating). I work with lawyers that bill out in the 350-400$ range. Same level of education, and I would argue it is harder to become an architect. As the licensed folks know, you are accepting a tremendous amount of liability by signing and sealing drawings. So any discussions I hear regarding the current level of architect’s salaries I believe is rhetorical.
So the net result we are discussing, despite the reasons of the current dynamics, is this a career choice you would recommend to your nephew or niece who is 17 and deciding what to major in at college?
Now, Archie previously has stated he would recommend this career path for those who love it, and has described his professional experiences (I hope it’s OK archie if I paraphrase). My history and experience is more akin to Intexas, I’ve been laid off 3 times. As a background, I have an undergrad and graduate degree and used to manage large, public building projects for the Federal Government. I have worked with Pritzer winning architects, and I have my own awards and publications under my belt.
I think .._.. has a very accurate analogy that architecture has become more of a job than a career. My experience in traditional firms is that people are hired and let go on a per project basis and that has become the norm. This is also the experience of many of my colleagues in the NY and LA markets. I have worked for firms where they started to “outsource” the drafting to Mexico, just like you would computer code, because it is cheaper.
I wish I could be more encouraging and “hopeful” to the next generation, but I think that would be a disservice. I am trying to portray an honest, direct, assessment of what I have learned in Architecture in 20 years.
file - you raise some good points. It's easy here for some of the younger members of the forum to ascribe evil intent to firms that are merely trying to survive. While a few firms might take unfair advantage of the labor situation, in my view most firms are just doing what they have to do to stay in business. Most of the problems we face as an industry are the result of an inept and corrupt Republican administration - not the routine malfeasance of firm owners.
Most of the problems we face go well beyond the previous administrationand are 40 years in the making but nice try troll. Architects are part of the larger construction industry and that industry is under structural shifts we haven't seen since the imediate postwar expansion
2step: pray tell, do share your vast experience - educate us on the specifics of those 'structural shifts' that have greater impact on this current recession than the total economic incompetence of the Bush/Cheney administration.
The country is very much built outin the private sector whee arcitects are prmarly eployed, beyond renovation work there is an ever decreasing percentage of work not related to engineering and infrastructure. I don't see how bus is at fault for30 years ofcheap money leading to an asset bubble, if you want to blame someone start a new thread. The fact is we have all the inventory we need and then some in residential, comercial and retail and we will have to find new ways to service. In my market teaming with contractors for full service contracts seems to be the new normal.
Folks, as an alternate thread, I am interested in trying to capture some of this in terms of how much people are currently working, please post your employment status here:
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=96338_0_42_0_C
Agreed. It's exactly this kind of political finger-pointing that has gotten us in this mess to begin with. The Republican vs. Democrat pissing war has gotten really old. Both sides just need to own up and admit they have both made mistakes before we have Civil War 2010.
Interesting dynamic in this thread: contributor "A" and allies blame firms for the tribulations of unemployed/underemployed architects; contributor "B" defends firms, suggesting they are reacting to economic forces beyond their control; contributor "C" supports "B" and suggests that the depth of the current troubles are the direct result of 8 years of poor, or nonexistent, oversight of the financial markets; contributor "C" gets abused for derailing the thread, while nobody abuses contributor "A" and his allies for their biases. odd, don't you think?
meanwhile, I'm still looking for a job. I commend and admire archie for his success in practice and ability to add folks. This is rare and wish I had more insight into his practice. I think. Also it points out that I believe for anyone considerng entering the field, that trying to start your own firm is imperative. I unfortunately wasn't able to make that leap, had a family and responsiblities that I couldn't risk, also a bit of cowardice on my part, but my point is that if you go into the biz, try to get out on your own ASAP.
Passrbyice, seems like a good strategy, go for it.
meanwhile, I'm still looking for a job. I commend and admire archie for his success in practice and ability to add folks. This is rare and wish I had more insight into his practice. I think. Also it points out that I believe for anyone considerng entering the field, that trying to start your own firm is imperative. I unfortunately wasn't able to make that leap, had a family and responsiblities that I couldn't risk, also a bit of cowardice on my part, but my point is that if you go into the biz, try to get out on your own ASAP.
Passrbyice, seems like a good strategy, go for it.
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