Your will has taken you to where you are for a reason. I too get frustrated and anxious about debt but I try to mask it as an opportunity loan/investment in my future.

I cannot speak for the GSD, but I'm sure things will only get better as you progress through the program. I thought my first year of architecture was bonkers, but looking back I have nice work to show, and so far I have not "re-learnt" what I was taught (new professors are enlightening!)

Speak to someone in the school. Older students? To be quite honest, you seem to have it all under control (seeing your girlfriend most weekends? u da man) and perhaps read the thread currently discussing school vs. practice, because this might help you realize when your engineering background will really help!

Sorry to hear about your semester, choochoo. I'm an M Arch I applicant this year, and visited the GSD for the open house. I ended up not staying for the whole day. You just described pretty well why I was put off by it . To me the focus seemed to be on a whole lot of bs and an embraced disconnect between design and human experience. I felt drawn to the allure of attending such a prestigious school, that's why I visited, but I could tell pretty quickly that I would be incredibly frustrated there and would, well, hate it.

Maybe thinking of it as an either/or situation is limiting you. It seems like it would be a shame to give up on architecture because you potentially chose a school that is not a good fit for you. Have you looked into the possibility of transferring to another MArch program?

I think, though, after reading about your situation, if I was in your shoes, I'd probably try to stick it out at the GSD. It's hard to be the voice that's not fitting in with the crowd, but it can also do the crowd some good. At the open house I was curious about the emphasis on the GSD being so diverse. Diverse in terms of race and nationality, okay, but in terms of thought and approach it struck me as entirely homogenous.

Couldn't agree more with you on that, then again, that's what the professors like to deal with since there isn't much room for theory in the real world when you're designing real buildings...at least the ones that get built.

As for your education, you have to figure out what you want on your own. I'm sure you could have a very successful career in civil engineering. Then again, being both a PE and registered Architect is a very valuable skill set. Firms would be all over themselves to have someone on staff like that. If money is an issue, leave GSD and get your MArch at some state school. You'll probably hear less about theory at state too. I honestly don't think the education is any worse at state universities and with your engineering degree you really shouldn't need the "connections" that GSD supposedly offers, which I'm sure aren't nearly as good in this economy as they were in better times.

Architectural thought/theory is pretty annoying and frustrating, but for some reason or another many of the academic gatekeepers feel its necessary to dabble in it, very few of them actually comprehend in any notable way the philosophers, critics, scientists they will quote. Just get through that part, you will learn some things and thats always good

Your at the GSD, its an excellent school and regardless of whether or not the GSD is the most happening architecture program, you will benefit except for the whole debt issue. I have heard that the GSD is not always the most nice place, hyper competitive students and faculty that are also competing with each other, but thats how it is in many professions. If you can get through with making time for your girl,riding the middle of the pack(don't get caught up in "beating" your peers, architecture school is a major ego battlefield), while also demonstrating what sounds like a clear superiority in terms of you computer/fabrication skills then I think you will come out with some good skills and armed with two degrees. If you want to be a designer either in a architecture or structural engineering or some other capacity I believe you would be a strong candidate to land a cool gig......assuming the economy "heals"

Working in the profession...there is no theory except at the high-brow, academically focused firms. Go check out some stuff by Felix Candela, or read up on the advanced geometry unit at ARUP(Lots of architects/engineers), seems like these types of places could all be in your wheelhouse

best of luck

on the one hand you should definitely finish it. on the other hand, if money is important it might be worth scraping it. if you're business minded and hope to have your own firm someday then acquiring alot of school debt is simply a way of putting that dream further out.

as an engineer you could already start a professional engineering practice. you could probably even find an architect willing to partner with you in some kind of design/engineering firm that might be able to open the doors to some very nice projects.

i don't know. it's really up to you, but personally i'm pretty bearish on the future of architecture for the next 15-20 years or so.

oh, and for whatever it's worth, i originally started out in engineering school but dropped that to become an architect so as far as i'm concerned there's nothing wrong with abandoning course if you're not completely sold on it.

In my last semester of finishing up my M.Arch, I completely understand what you are going through. I had a dollar for every time that I wanted to quit my M.Arch program, I could pay my hefty tuition right of pocket. In my first semester quite a few people left, and we never saw them again...

I think that the answer is to maybe look into other schools that you can consider transfer instead of quitting completely. Each school has a personality and how things work. I suggest that you talk to your counselor and look into some options and maybe even a leave of absence to figure out what you want to do.

MBA. If you are smart enough to question things when times are good, you'll be even smarter to kick yourself if they get bad.

Figure out what you want out of life and work backwards. If you don't have an insane (yes, insanity is a prerequisite) burning to design, then forget it, there is nothing that will make owing a fortune, making pennies, and working too hard worth it.

Go back to engineering, get an MBA, combine the two. You've already answered your question, imho.

You're chances of getting an objective response here are pretty slim....

I don't expect to get completely objective responses anywhere, but I think they have been thought provoking so far.

I'm also in civil engineering, plan to take the PE in April and enter M.Arch program in summer or fall.

I think the duel degree is really worth pursuing, I think you might regret it if you don't finish, especially already racking up the loans.

That being said, it sounds like GSD isn't the place for you. I found the program to be way overrated and way too much theory. (for me at least) Maybe take some time off, work, earn your engineering time, build a portfolio and reapply for merit scholarships at a more practical based school? I have to be honest, knowing that I will have my PE while entering grad school is serious peace of mind, I know I can always leave school and find a job or at least work on my own.

good luck, it's nice to hear there are engineers out there getting into design!

Seriously, are you listening to news?

$60k for ivy league master degree is nothing!

I owe that much for undegrad degree from not so ivy school, and am unemployed and not scared about my debt. You on the other hand have a money generating degree already and will have another awesome degree, you will be very valuable by the time you finish your studies!

I don't see any reason to be scared about a mere $60k in your position, you don't even know how lucky you are!

If you don't like what they teach there, then challenge them and make it the way you want it to be, be a rebel!

I just finished my 1st Semester at the GSD, and maybe have some insight for ChooChoo.

Why did you want to go to architecture school in the first place? Did you enjoy theory before you came to architecture school?

The great French engineer/architect Boyèr was a prelude to such notable modern thinkers as R. Buckminster Fuller. Although the truth is, most superstar engineers are unknown in architecture school, unless you count C. Balmond.

I think there are probably different paths you could go down to get where you'd like to be. The institution of architecture school has been toying with people's egos and imaginations for quite sometime to sustain a slightly ridiculous business model, and I agree that sometimes the GSD can be an incredibly antagonistic place.

However I would also suggest that all graduate schools are full of neurotic, competitive professors, and most Deans would insist that this is vital for sustaining a self-refreshing intellectual environment.

Have you met some of the 2nd and 3rd years? In my experience they are a lot more "chilled" out and have all begun to develop separate identities within the field. No one, including PSC himself, wants the GSD to produce a mess of seething, insecure diva architects, so try not to feel like this is the only available option.

After 1st year the list of professors is a lot more broad and presents different personality types than the Edgy New Yorker, just look at the work produced in 3rd Semester and beyond.

Furthermore, alumni of the GSD are doing work in many fields redefining the use of design education and ultimately progressing the field of architecture. They are leaders in politics, construction, computing, etc.

A lot of your classmates will graduate with almost twice as much in debt, so $60,000 really aint no thing. You go to Harvard now.

Finally, I would just say that the GSD needs you and your classmates appreciate your perspective and ingenuity. 1st Semester is supposed to suck, in the semesters to come you will be able to do what you want.

Thank you for your candidness.

I've been curious how the theory pedagogy differs between schools, but haven't exhaustively searched the forums for a thread about it yet.

This is an idiotic question, but what do you mean by "humanism"?

University of Florida's theory program seems STRONGLY focused on phenomenology, which I would say concentrates on "humanism." Pallasmaa taught a graduate studio there last semester and Perez-Gomez came to the critique.

I've found that phenomenology is useful as a cognitive branch between a evidence-based design and the type of architectural theory that reads like article bot-generated postmodern literary analysis.

I agree with the previous posters that maybe you should transfer to a different school. Taking on the kind of debt you're talking about would make me vomit monthly. Please feel free to e-mail me if you would like more info about UF.

I think the wikipedia entry explains what I mean pretty clearly:

"Humanism is a perspective common to a wide range of ethical stances that attaches importance to human dignity, concerns, and capabilities, particularly rationality. Although the word has many senses, its meaning comes into focus when contrasted to the supernatural or to appeals to authority."

Clearly, I wouldn't ask schools to join the International Humanist and Ethical Union, I would just say that the curriculum at the GSD does not directly address in its first semester any issues of ethics or rationality. This is the hallmark of the postmodernism in education - I think it has the tendency to breed cynicality and I don't like that.

Choochoo - i was in the same boat my first year of M.Arch. luckily I did not have to borrow money for my education, so i stuck with it. However, if i have to do a cost benefit analysis on your sitation, it seems like your best bet is to cut your losses. I do not know many people from either GSD or Princeton who made it in the professional world - unless you consider inane academia as part of the professional world- I do not. But do not despair, the most important thing to learn in architecture school is the ability to bullshit with confidence. Some people acquire this in their first year...it took me the full 3 years, if you think you've mastered this, cut your losses and quit.

if you do think more about switching schools, you may want to investigate some programs that have a focus in sustainability--this might be a much more satisfying kind of work--your knack for analysis and systems would go far.

there are other schools that would probably support your aspirations more effectively.

I am going to suggest that you remain at the GSD. Theory is just a hiccup if you don't take it seriously. Perhaps the point is more for you to be acclimatized to concerns of those slightly older than yourself, who matured in an environment still ripe for frivolous construction. One could argue that many of the theories we struggle with now were originally reactions to such epochal events as mass industrialization, the two world wars, holocaust, late capitalism- which at the time I'm sure seemed more like forces of nature than human foibles.

Point is that ethics and rationality become incredibly subjective terms when examined from multiple perspectives. Just consider the ethical differences surrounding abortion and the environment, and you will see this term still up for debate in this country. And this is the country you may be building in primarily. Striving for objectivity and efficiency is good, no doubt, but which platform will enable you to make change most effectively? I see the word Architect as being slightly more malleable than engineer, perhaps because it has meant so little in the past.

Furthermore, the GSD has more resources than any other school. Many schools have excellent programs in sustainability, but few seem to approach it with any kind of criticality. While the GSD can at times seem slightly insidious and blase about environmental concerns, the resources are there. The first semester is intended to provide you with tools for solving formal design problems. If they did not do this, they could not call themselves an architecture school. So, as time goes by, you have the power to take you education into your own hands. It is grad school after all, you can (theoretically) do whatever you want, you have electives, option studios, opportunities to get money to work with NGOs over the summer, and ultimately compile a thesis of original work.

So maybe go talk to your academic advisor or some older students, or maybe even leaders in the field you admire, Archinect has the tendency to get bitchy when it comes to the GSD.

Thanks, 10. I hope I do not come across as presumptuous at times. Your comments are well honed, as I would expect for a PhD.

I am going to be talking to several architects, two engineers (including Martin Bechtold), and hopefully some other professors at the GSD in January.

Scratch the PhD, I mean BFA. :)

you mean my comments are well stoned?

Hi choochoo,

try checking out Boston Architectural College to see if their concurrent learning model -- Theory(classrm) & Practice (paid-work @ Arch firms) -- works for you, both academically and financially...HTH! Wish u luck w/ coming to your final decision.