Dead on Stone!! Some should consider another's opinions, especially if they have the experience to qualify their statements. Omniscient newcomers typically don't listen to the old guys so they stop giving advice when it falls on deaf ears and just sit back and say "told ya so, saw that one coming from a mile away." It takes a child's own undoing to finally "get it."
A former boss who's been in the profession for over 50 years gave me advice once, I didn't take it and like a kid on Halloween chasing candy, the situation exploded in my face.
Similar to computer software, the issue usually isn't the program, it's the incompetent user. I see little wrong with the profession (NCARB, various state boards, AREs, universities, AIA, etc.)...it's the economy!
There seems to be a great denial and refusal of self analysis among some of the older generation who helped craft the current situation. Even the behavior and decisions of their children is a reflection upon them.
i would like to point out stone, that you never offered me advice (at least not back when i was making decisions regarding college) and you never offered me any financial support. While your perspective on education may be appropriate for others in a situation similar to yours, your experience may not be common.
not only is the cost of education going up at a sharp rate, but incomes are going down for a lot of people. that would mean that not only is it much harder for a kid to afford an education now compared to my day, but it's much more unlikely that parents will be help finance their kids college. so what do you do then? tell your kid their future doesn't matter because you're not part of the wealthy few? it would be a lot harder to give your kids good advice when there aren't any good options.
Exactly. Some are foolish, many are foolish, and borrow tons. Others have the choice of either borrowing or not pursuing their dreams. There is a precarious balance that you can aim for, that you should aim for, but it is not as easy as "he chose to spend a lot, he chose not to".
As for licensure. It is as stagnant as much of building/architecture is and will continue to weight down the profession, adding to the decline.
Im going to say it again. College loans are a racket. One needs no further proof than the fact that the laws for those loans vs any otther type of loan are different and quite a bit more severe. The collections methods allowed for those loans are outlawed for other types of loans.
Because some young people are able to see the trap and avoid it doesn't mean that it isn't a trap. That some others run up debt foolishly for clothes and spring break vacations doesnt mean that is how all students got into trouble. Some students are making their own situation worse, but college loans are still a racket. Whether people choose to acknowledge that fact or not will make no difference if we let the problem fester til it explodes and takes the economy down a notch the way the housing bubble did.
Not that its anyones business, but I should be very ok with the amount of school debt I will accrue. We are about to pay off the second car loan :) It also helps that I decided I couldn't afford to pursue architecture becaue the only school nearby offers a masters degree.
This morning I once again feel blessed to have had such wonderful parents who would never gloat if my life had been difficult the past 7 years for failing to heed their sage advice.
As a matter of public policy, the Congress placed bankruptcy restrictions on student loans because 1) too many students abused the system by deliberately (and cynically) filing for bankruptcy immediately after graduation; 2) lenders increasingly were reluctant to provide student loans to anyone due to excessive losses arising from the previous point; and 3) unlike the case with your house or your car, you still have the full benefit of your education post-bankruptcy. As I see it, the main problem with student loans has more to do with lax underwriting standards and naiveté on the part of too many students.
"you still have the full benefit of your education post-bankruptcy"
It depends on the education and from where. It has become pretty obvious now to the current generations that a college education =/= job. Using naiveté as a means of blame when they were following the advice of their culture/nation/society that if you do not go to college you will have a poor life. Then part of these older generations that created this mirage also created the supposed need to pay so much for schooling (more of a product than an education), while others of created loans for the same system that are structured to tie those youth into a system of perpetual payments in addition to all the other costs of their life.
Also, some of y'all are giving too much credit to free will over influence. If you raise your children their whole life telling them one thing, and then when they believe you and chase it you turn around and call them naive for taking the only means possible to achieve it and say it is their fault, well that is a bit ridiculous.
Oh, please.
If you persist in playing the 'victim' and fail to recognize any degree of your own willful participation in your present situation, then you really are hopelessly naive.
So many college students demand to be treated as Independent adults, free to make their own life decisions. Then, when something goes wrong, they want to place all the blame for their predicament on the 'older generation'. Gimme a break. Take responsibility for your own frikking life.
Yeah, you're right, I forgot that it was all the youth that created this situation when they were in middle school. so that by the time they got to college, they would be allowed to accrue dept for education that exceeds the income they will get for the profession they were educated for.
So as an architect, if you build a cantilever with enough surface area to hold 50 people and you tell 50 people to go onto that cantilever to enjoy the few, but you carelessly supported it with a single 2x4, the blame falls solely on those 50 people when the cantilever collapses due to your poor design and misguidance?
How can you even expect the youth to understand a financial system that a large number of their elders do not even understand?
We all have to play the hand we're dealt. Whining about it and trying to throw the blame on others may temporarily cause you to feel a bit better, but it doesn't do a single damn thing to change your situation.
babs, you're not wrong about taking responsibility and such.
however, first i think you need to understand that this is a very real problem with real consequences, not only for the loan taker but for our economy at large. a whole lot of people are entering the real world saddled with a ton of debt they can't realistically pay off. they're not going to be able to be consumers as easily as previous generations because they won't get as much money for equal work. since consumption and service is about the only thing America produces, that's going to have a very serious toll. they won't be as incentivized since they don't get to keep as much of their paychecks. eventually the money they owe has to come from somewhere and that will likely somehow be a government bailout of sorts and the cost will be carried by tax payers. the other two possibilities are the bank takes the loss, which is very unlikely, or the student remains gainfully employed with a high enough salary to make payments. this is another asset bubble that will burst.
Second, the last few posts here are related to causes of this mess. somebody, at some point, is going to have to deal with this (unless the world ends this december, which i assume you agree with since you agree with our political leaders and think this can all be ignored and it will go away on it's own). it's too big and effects too many people to say 'quit whining' and 'take care of yourself.' that's like asking aig or countrywide to take care of themselves. they don't have the assets to fix the problems they created, so it's just not a possible scenario. these comments about the expectations placed on kids today, the advice they're given regarding the costs of education, and who is giving that advice is a good start to why we're in this mess and how to fix it.
Sure, you can say that only children of the wealthy have earned an education, the same as a lot of people seem to think only the children of the wealthy deserve health care. in my opinion, that is not acceptable.
If you ignore all blame for where it is due, younger and older, then the problems and issues will persist if not worsen. That most certainly will cause "my" (which I assume you are broadly referring to the younger generation) situation to change, but not in a positive manner.
It ain't the system, it's the incompetent users to "blame." Change doesn't come from the bottom-up, from the have-nots, it comes from the top, the haves who decide to initiate the paradigm shift. At least that's the case here in the US, ie. slavery ended not because of the cries of slaves but because the haves (yankees) decided to do something about it as it impacted their bottom line, money, free labor, etc. not inhumanity.
Back to the OP, NCARB has made an architect license more accessible than ever. There's enough study material that anybody with basic reading comprehension abilities can pass the ARE's on the first go. I know plenty of architects licensed under 30 (some at 25, my math isn't off unless driver's licenses are forged), yet I know EVEN MORE who didn't get licensed until their 40's because they couldn't pass the 7 part exam within 5 years, which mind you previously was offered ONCE a year, in large cities, pass/fail, 72 hr exam, and if you failed one part you had to take them ALL over again. With NCARB streamlining the process to make it easier for architects to relocate, gain reciprocity and practice anywhere in the US. Yet it's still TOO HARD for people and people still complain about the process not being fair. Making it easier for "incompetent" architects to practice is what's going to kill this profession.
There are many paths to licensure, more than ever. If you don't want whatever the "system" unfairly throws your way; don't pursue it then, we're adults capable of making our own decisions and accepting the consequences. I come from a VERY poor, single-parent household and put myself through one of the top universities in the country and worked my butt off to licensure. Crap I didn't even know the difference between a 4 yr, 5th yr, grad school until my junior year when my professor said "Hey, you know you need another degree to get a license in most states." I sucked it up, went back to school, accrued more debt, and got it done. (everybody has a story, mine isn't unique)
Sorry but the ONLY way the profession changes is from the top, the haves, the architects. Unfortunately the have-nots, know-nots, unlicensed individuals have no say: "You're not qualified to have that opinion." You can state your opinion at the local bar or on a forum but guess what, it ain't changing ANYTHING. Ask the Occupy Wall Street protesters if anything's changed yet...other than overdraft protection. Some wish to believe we live in a Democracy, our system is hardly a Republic.
"require a professional license and NCARB" ? You wouldn't need NCARB if you're licensed.
Most licensed architects aren't even NCARB certified. A lot of boards accept an experience verification process as long as it's comparable to NCARB's IDP. Not all boards require NCARB IDP, key word require. IDP or equivalent, NAAB or equivalent, etc. It's in most board's rules and regulations and even explained on NCARB's website...The only thing NCARB required by all jurisdictions is passing the AREs and that's only required if seeking licensure by examination. Direct registration through NCARB is not law in all jurisdictions. However, more boards are adopting the IDP standard and NCARB's blue cover does streamline reciprocity but that's about it after you're licensed.
54 jurisdictions x multiple routes to licensure = more access than ever.
@leveen: most people are looking to become licensed in whatever state they live in - a large number of states require a professional degree and/or IDP - even if you are looking to go alternative path and gain licensure via reciprocity.
unless you were initially licensed sometime in the 80s and were grandfathered in, this path doesn't make much sense for many people who live in states with much stricter requirements.
Toasteroven, you are absolutely correct. Without knowing what state every "poster" resides or seeks liensure, it is impossible to give appropriate advice pertaining to licensure other than "verify with your state board." To name a few; Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, you can get licensed with only a high school diploma (and "X" yrs experience)...insane but true...Some require NCARB IDP, some don't, some require professional degrees, others don't.
require NCARB? really? i'm NCARB, but thats because each state creates absurd hurdles for anyone not licensed in that particular state and my certification clears asinine obfuscatory processes. in my state, it's not even called reciprocity, it's comity, and if you call it reciprocity, you get yelled at by the numb nuts running this state board.
ncarb explains the numbers...
Dead on Stone!! Some should consider another's opinions, especially if they have the experience to qualify their statements. Omniscient newcomers typically don't listen to the old guys so they stop giving advice when it falls on deaf ears and just sit back and say "told ya so, saw that one coming from a mile away." It takes a child's own undoing to finally "get it."
A former boss who's been in the profession for over 50 years gave me advice once, I didn't take it and like a kid on Halloween chasing candy, the situation exploded in my face.
Similar to computer software, the issue usually isn't the program, it's the incompetent user. I see little wrong with the profession (NCARB, various state boards, AREs, universities, AIA, etc.)...it's the economy!
There seems to be a great denial and refusal of self analysis among some of the older generation who helped craft the current situation. Even the behavior and decisions of their children is a reflection upon them.
i would like to point out stone, that you never offered me advice (at least not back when i was making decisions regarding college) and you never offered me any financial support. While your perspective on education may be appropriate for others in a situation similar to yours, your experience may not be common.
not only is the cost of education going up at a sharp rate, but incomes are going down for a lot of people. that would mean that not only is it much harder for a kid to afford an education now compared to my day, but it's much more unlikely that parents will be help finance their kids college. so what do you do then? tell your kid their future doesn't matter because you're not part of the wealthy few? it would be a lot harder to give your kids good advice when there aren't any good options.
curtram, you are on point! stone ignores the fact that debt is not an option for some of us.
Exactly. Some are foolish, many are foolish, and borrow tons. Others have the choice of either borrowing or not pursuing their dreams. There is a precarious balance that you can aim for, that you should aim for, but it is not as easy as "he chose to spend a lot, he chose not to".
As for licensure. It is as stagnant as much of building/architecture is and will continue to weight down the profession, adding to the decline.
Im going to say it again. College loans are a racket. One needs no further proof than the fact that the laws for those loans vs any otther type of loan are different and quite a bit more severe. The collections methods allowed for those loans are outlawed for other types of loans.
Because some young people are able to see the trap and avoid it doesn't mean that it isn't a trap. That some others run up debt foolishly for clothes and spring break vacations doesnt mean that is how all students got into trouble. Some students are making their own situation worse, but college loans are still a racket. Whether people choose to acknowledge that fact or not will make no difference if we let the problem fester til it explodes and takes the economy down a notch the way the housing bubble did.
Not that its anyones business, but I should be very ok with the amount of school debt I will accrue. We are about to pay off the second car loan :) It also helps that I decided I couldn't afford to pursue architecture becaue the only school nearby offers a masters degree.
This morning I once again feel blessed to have had such wonderful parents who would never gloat if my life had been difficult the past 7 years for failing to heed their sage advice.
As a matter of public policy, the Congress placed bankruptcy restrictions on student loans because 1) too many students abused the system by deliberately (and cynically) filing for bankruptcy immediately after graduation; 2) lenders increasingly were reluctant to provide student loans to anyone due to excessive losses arising from the previous point; and 3) unlike the case with your house or your car, you still have the full benefit of your education post-bankruptcy. As I see it, the main problem with student loans has more to do with lax underwriting standards and naiveté on the part of too many students.
"you still have the full benefit of your education post-bankruptcy"
It depends on the education and from where. It has become pretty obvious now to the current generations that a college education =/= job. Using naiveté as a means of blame when they were following the advice of their culture/nation/society that if you do not go to college you will have a poor life. Then part of these older generations that created this mirage also created the supposed need to pay so much for schooling (more of a product than an education), while others of created loans for the same system that are structured to tie those youth into a system of perpetual payments in addition to all the other costs of their life.
Also, some of y'all are giving too much credit to free will over influence. If you raise your children their whole life telling them one thing, and then when they believe you and chase it you turn around and call them naive for taking the only means possible to achieve it and say it is their fault, well that is a bit ridiculous.
Oh, please. If you persist in playing the 'victim' and fail to recognize any degree of your own willful participation in your present situation, then you really are hopelessly naive. So many college students demand to be treated as Independent adults, free to make their own life decisions. Then, when something goes wrong, they want to place all the blame for their predicament on the 'older generation'. Gimme a break. Take responsibility for your own frikking life.
"Take responsibility for your own frikking life"
Yeaaah! Got raped? Blame yourself. Thanks reverend babs.
Yeah, you're right, I forgot that it was all the youth that created this situation when they were in middle school. so that by the time they got to college, they would be allowed to accrue dept for education that exceeds the income they will get for the profession they were educated for.
So as an architect, if you build a cantilever with enough surface area to hold 50 people and you tell 50 people to go onto that cantilever to enjoy the few, but you carelessly supported it with a single 2x4, the blame falls solely on those 50 people when the cantilever collapses due to your poor design and misguidance?
How can you even expect the youth to understand a financial system that a large number of their elders do not even understand?
We all have to play the hand we're dealt. Whining about it and trying to throw the blame on others may temporarily cause you to feel a bit better, but it doesn't do a single damn thing to change your situation.
babs, you're not wrong about taking responsibility and such.
however, first i think you need to understand that this is a very real problem with real consequences, not only for the loan taker but for our economy at large. a whole lot of people are entering the real world saddled with a ton of debt they can't realistically pay off. they're not going to be able to be consumers as easily as previous generations because they won't get as much money for equal work. since consumption and service is about the only thing America produces, that's going to have a very serious toll. they won't be as incentivized since they don't get to keep as much of their paychecks. eventually the money they owe has to come from somewhere and that will likely somehow be a government bailout of sorts and the cost will be carried by tax payers. the other two possibilities are the bank takes the loss, which is very unlikely, or the student remains gainfully employed with a high enough salary to make payments. this is another asset bubble that will burst.
Second, the last few posts here are related to causes of this mess. somebody, at some point, is going to have to deal with this (unless the world ends this december, which i assume you agree with since you agree with our political leaders and think this can all be ignored and it will go away on it's own). it's too big and effects too many people to say 'quit whining' and 'take care of yourself.' that's like asking aig or countrywide to take care of themselves. they don't have the assets to fix the problems they created, so it's just not a possible scenario. these comments about the expectations placed on kids today, the advice they're given regarding the costs of education, and who is giving that advice is a good start to why we're in this mess and how to fix it.
Sure, you can say that only children of the wealthy have earned an education, the same as a lot of people seem to think only the children of the wealthy deserve health care. in my opinion, that is not acceptable.
If you ignore all blame for where it is due, younger and older, then the problems and issues will persist if not worsen. That most certainly will cause "my" (which I assume you are broadly referring to the younger generation) situation to change, but not in a positive manner.
It ain't the system, it's the incompetent users to "blame." Change doesn't come from the bottom-up, from the have-nots, it comes from the top, the haves who decide to initiate the paradigm shift. At least that's the case here in the US, ie. slavery ended not because of the cries of slaves but because the haves (yankees) decided to do something about it as it impacted their bottom line, money, free labor, etc. not inhumanity.
Back to the OP, NCARB has made an architect license more accessible than ever. There's enough study material that anybody with basic reading comprehension abilities can pass the ARE's on the first go. I know plenty of architects licensed under 30 (some at 25, my math isn't off unless driver's licenses are forged), yet I know EVEN MORE who didn't get licensed until their 40's because they couldn't pass the 7 part exam within 5 years, which mind you previously was offered ONCE a year, in large cities, pass/fail, 72 hr exam, and if you failed one part you had to take them ALL over again. With NCARB streamlining the process to make it easier for architects to relocate, gain reciprocity and practice anywhere in the US. Yet it's still TOO HARD for people and people still complain about the process not being fair. Making it easier for "incompetent" architects to practice is what's going to kill this profession.
There are many paths to licensure, more than ever. If you don't want whatever the "system" unfairly throws your way; don't pursue it then, we're adults capable of making our own decisions and accepting the consequences. I come from a VERY poor, single-parent household and put myself through one of the top universities in the country and worked my butt off to licensure. Crap I didn't even know the difference between a 4 yr, 5th yr, grad school until my junior year when my professor said "Hey, you know you need another degree to get a license in most states." I sucked it up, went back to school, accrued more debt, and got it done. (everybody has a story, mine isn't unique)
Sorry but the ONLY way the profession changes is from the top, the haves, the architects. Unfortunately the have-nots, know-nots, unlicensed individuals have no say: "You're not qualified to have that opinion." You can state your opinion at the local bar or on a forum but guess what, it ain't changing ANYTHING. Ask the Occupy Wall Street protesters if anything's changed yet...other than overdraft protection. Some wish to believe we live in a Democracy, our system is hardly a Republic.
There are many paths to licensure, more than ever.
many paths to licensure? please tell.
Google it.
NCARB is NOT a national requirement. Nor is a BArch, nor MArch, etc.
Every jurisdiction board sets its own standards, listing all 54 would be cumbersome.
The vast MAJORITY however require a professional license and NCARB, only a few jurisdictions possess other relevant routes.
"require a professional license and NCARB" ? You wouldn't need NCARB if you're licensed.
Most licensed architects aren't even NCARB certified. A lot of boards accept an experience verification process as long as it's comparable to NCARB's IDP. Not all boards require NCARB IDP, key word require. IDP or equivalent, NAAB or equivalent, etc. It's in most board's rules and regulations and even explained on NCARB's website...The only thing NCARB required by all jurisdictions is passing the AREs and that's only required if seeking licensure by examination. Direct registration through NCARB is not law in all jurisdictions. However, more boards are adopting the IDP standard and NCARB's blue cover does streamline reciprocity but that's about it after you're licensed.
54 jurisdictions x multiple routes to licensure = more access than ever.
http://www.ncarb.org/Reg-Board-Requirements.aspx
@leveen: most people are looking to become licensed in whatever state they live in - a large number of states require a professional degree and/or IDP - even if you are looking to go alternative path and gain licensure via reciprocity.
unless you were initially licensed sometime in the 80s and were grandfathered in, this path doesn't make much sense for many people who live in states with much stricter requirements.
For example - I know Illinois and Minnesota require IDP regardless of whether or not you're licensed in another state.
and 8 states won't accept the NCARB certificate for "broadly experienced architect"
Toasteroven, you are absolutely correct. Without knowing what state every "poster" resides or seeks liensure, it is impossible to give appropriate advice pertaining to licensure other than "verify with your state board." To name a few; Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, you can get licensed with only a high school diploma (and "X" yrs experience)...insane but true...Some require NCARB IDP, some don't, some require professional degrees, others don't.
Who knew that Preston Scott Cohen,
the Gerald M. McCue Professor in Architecture at the GSD
..is not a registered architect
require NCARB? really? i'm NCARB, but thats because each state creates absurd hurdles for anyone not licensed in that particular state and my certification clears asinine obfuscatory processes. in my state, it's not even called reciprocity, it's comity, and if you call it reciprocity, you get yelled at by the numb nuts running this state board.
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