Hey all...long time reader, first time poster. I decided not to go to law school this year, in part because I had/have this idea that architecture school was where I belonged, and I have a few questions for anyone who cares to weigh in.
Some background: I just turned 26. Would enter school as I turn 27. Went to Harvard. Studied philosophy and did fine. I want to work in NY, SF or LA eventually.
First off: does anyone have any clue about the admissions rates at UCLA, Berkeley, Harvard, Yale? I'm totally in the dark. In a perfect world I'd end up at one of those but have no idea about the odds I'm up against. Also, any other school suggestions welcome.
Second: I've looked at the salaray poll and...jeez...really??!? At the best boutique firms you're making 55k several years out of school? How do people pay off debts....ever?
Finally: Looked at the "Like Your Job?" thread and seems like there are lots of frustrated architects out there. For those of you who are really into it, who feel fulfilled, what's your story? What did you do for school and what kind of environment are you in now?
Extra credit: how hard is it to set up your own practice and how soon can you do it?
most of your questions are answered in various threads on archinect. otherwise, you've left us with an awful lot of questions to absorb and they almost all have long answers.
the short answer is, yes, architects can be underpaid and frustrated. if you love it, those things become irrelevant.
if you know how to run a business, you could conceivable set up shop while still in school - though you couldn't call yourself an architect. you'd be a designer until registered. you won't be able to get registered until at least 3-4 yrs after you've graduated. so you'll be, what, probably 33-34? if you don't know how to run a business already, i'd suggest waiting and working for someone else and seeing how that goes first.
but that's all premature. when you get into school, all of your plans will change. when you are in school for a while, all of your plans will change again. when you graduate, all of your plans will change...
Sorry, that sounds bitter. But for the salary you could make as a lawyer you could hire an architect to be your full time partner and fulfill all of your design fantasies through them, plus have enough left over to buy a beamer or something.
Again, some short answers as I've got limited time this morning:
-people don't pay off their debts, ever. Most architects are broke or on the verge. If you are interested in building things, real estate dvelopment is far mroe rewarding financially and you can work with architects you like so you are manifesting good design work in the world. Being a lawyer turned developer isn't an impossible shift. The salary difference between lawyers and architects is vast while the work/stress load is pretty much the same, so if that's a real issues for you, you should think hard about it.
-the single most important element of starting your own business, IMO, is a strong network of non-architects. You could, conceivably, go to law school, build a network of aquaintances in the lawyer world, and start doing small design jobs on the side, building yourself into a design business through word-of-mouth among your wealthy lawyer friends. But you'll never be able to call yourself "an architect" unless you get an accredited degree and do a 3-year internship and pass the exams. This may or may not be important to you, lots of residential designers are not licensed.
Maybe it would help if you told us why you are attracted to architecture school? What is it that turns you on about architecture? I'm sure we can quickly de-romanticize it for you ;)
the un-answered issue is acceptance rates- note that most of the programs you've asked about have 60 to 80 students enroll each year. most students apply to multiple schools (and may only be accepted once). So you are looking at a best case scenario of 4 applicants for every spot to twice this for the most competive programs (oh they are all competitive).
If we go back to the 'why yale sucks' thread- yale really cares about your grades and gre scores.
harvard (as you know) cares about who your daddy is.
UCLA cares if you are blond and beautiful/
and berkeley cares if you can inhale...
there are other schools out there- don't fall for the 'name' quotiant when chosing. What are your interests, passions, and peeves?
there is an architecture school out there for everybody. (even if it's DeVry's Building Technology program)
Like I said, AP03, if you tell us what your interest is you might get more helpful responses here. If you've been reading for a long time you know how many smart-asses there are here, come on, guys, let's try to be helpful!
(bossman I hear your comment in a Yoda-like voice)
Lb, let me defend my answer, as it is smartasstic. Scam - meaning architecture is foremost a technical trade, and it's artistic core lies in the realm of craft based philosophy. By scam I mean to denounce the educational advertisements put forth by our beloved institutions that architecture is somehow integral to the production of civilization, whereas its just as easily argued its a product of civilization. When someone can actually define architecture, I will believe it not a scam. The saving grace here is that as an architect we can sell it anway we like or can afford.
3) The reason there is a lot of frustration in architecture is because we tend to be really passionate about what we do, otherwise (see #2) we wouldn't bother doing it. It is easier to get frustrated when you love something and have high expectations for it. I find that people in other fields on the whole seem "happier" with their jobs precisely because the jobs are stupid and boring and the people don't care about them. These people go home at 5pm, leave the work at the job, and derive what happiness they have solely from their home life. Architecture isn't like that. If you're doing it, it's because you derive immense pleasure from it, and therefore your happiness partially depends on what you do at work; therefore the stakes are higher and frustration is more likely to occur. On the other hand, absolutely awesome days at work when you LOVE your job and LOVE your life are also more likely to occur.
So there you have it. If anyone ever asks about this again I'm going to repeat this verbatim.
Hey, thanks for the comments. Really helpful actually.
I decided not to go to law school cause the idea of a job without any creative element scared the sh*t out of me. So I'm almost afraid to ask: how much creativity can I expect to have coming out of school?
This is what attracts me to architecture. 1) The creative element. You're making aesthetic things. 2) The eventual possibility for self-employment. 3) I like how all these other fields are related to architecture...psychology, history, philosophy, environmental science. It's like what I love about art plus some humanities and science thrown in. 4) I'm convinced we need lots more "sustainable" design and I want to contribute. 5) I just think I'd be happy tinkering with balsa wood and glue guns for years on end.
Ok, disabuse me of these fantasies...
Thanks again.
Oh, I found that Yale is somewhere in the 20-30% range. Others are probably similar.
It's easier to fall out of love with architecture after 15 years of paycheck-to-paycheck living than it is after only 3 years of it. Young and idealistic and starving is one thing, 40 and a parent is another.
One thing I (still) love about architecture is simply that you're working with material things. The law, for example, is based in words and ideas, it's not concrete. I love making concrete decisions: be it "aesthetic" like which tile will look great in this shower, or "technical" like we should build this addition slab on grade rather than wood on a crawl space.
Today I hate the profession because I'm broke. It's the end of the month and I'm flat broke. But I still get excited when the contractor calls and says he's faxed over shop drawings of the custom vanity cabinet for me to approve.
This isn't helping you at all, AP03, but that's what is running through my head right now.
I guess how it relates to your comments above, AP03, is that you emphasize making aesthetic decisions. Be aware that the aesthetic aspect, in a typical building, is only maybe 10% of the decision-making process, the other 90% is technical decisions aka how do we get it built without blowing the budget. For many of us, this aspect of "designing" - because it is all, as Old Fogey said, design, whether aestehetic or technical - is as easy to fall in love with as the aesthetic part. It's not always pretty, but if you find a way to love the nuts and bolts too, you'll be another deeply frustrated yet also deeply satisfied architect (and you'll be broke).
I think Steven Ward nailed it... If you love it, all the bullshit is irrelevent.
Me-
$50k in debt out of school.
$67k in debt after 3 years after working for a well known boutique. Worth it.
$97k in debt after 3 years of running my own office.
Worth it.
At the rate I'm going I gonna beat Louis Kahn with debt when I die ($500k). I love what I'm doing and I'm building what I want so its worth it...
Yeah libertybelle--best feelings at the end of the day are: a) seeing something you drew come out in reality really beautifully--touching it, handling it, admiring it glowing there before you--and b) hearing clients tell you over and over how much they LOVE what you've done for them!
I'm 100% certain law school is not for me. Plans B and C are hedge fund work (soulless but lucrative) and non-profit work (morally valuable but intellectually boring).
Libertybell: thanks. I can see myself really enjoying the nuts and bolts technical decisions and this kind of work, where I'm motivated to do even the "drudgery", is what I want. And yes, the working with material things is, for whatever reason, something that gets me off too. I guess I'm naturally pretty tactile and visually oriented.
Setting up your own practice is probably the dream of many architects and it's mine too. Can't you make decent money this way? How wide is the gulf between the starchitects and the rest? How much do the heads of successful 2-15 person boutiques make in SF, for example?
the most profitable size firm to run is between 16-19 people with one principal. The key to making money as an architect is to have other people doing the work for you. LB- if you manage the transition from your hands on practice, to inspiring others to make everything happen for you, then you will have bank at the end of the month & year. but this is a topic for another thread (oh, we discussed this a while ago). Practices of this size can easily make a profit of $500k+ (per my esteemed professional practice instructor). Architects don't have to be broke, you just have to be great at negociating your fees and managing the projects. Remember, you don't want to get hired for being the cheapest.
AP03- If you have the aptitude to love the banal and tedious technical stuff (what part of law is anything but that), then you'll be a great architect. Just don't get dreams of starchitecture and of global domination. Good luck!
Wow silverlake. Wow. This isn't schadenfreude but your post makes me feel so much better as I am still $20K in debt from school loans plus $20K in debt while working for myself and I've only been in private practice for 18 months!
Architecture is my passion and my life → "Yes" → Apply to Architecture School → kick butt and become an Architect.
Architecture is not my passion, I have other options that interest me → "No" → do not apply to Architecture school, do not become an Architect, select something else, do not pass "Go".
Sorry for the sarcasm and directness, but it really does boil down to this:)
the problem with your diagram kitty kat is that everyone answers yes to the passion question when they are contemplating the decision. I know I did and look how I turned out.
It's so funny and sad to realize that a lot of us (architects) say we are passionate about what we do and money doesn't buy happiness... same stuff that we've been hearing/saying since our school days (liked to touch materials, loved LEGO, loved to do something creative, blah blah blah). I do know that it's very important to do what you love to do, but you know what, reality sucks. It all would make sense, if this becomes reality:
I went out with my wife and had fancy dinner, and oh boy, the restaurant accepted my Platinum "Creativity" card. I paid off my student loan with this awesome "my love of architecture." Hey, I get to send my kids to the top prep schools with my life savings of "passion for architecture." I just purchased my dream home with my "pleasure doing architecture."
Of course, very few lucky ones who has been blessed with architectural talent, or born in rich family, will make that top .001% of being starchitects.
Decision Tree Matrix Revision per vado commentary:
Architecture is my passion because I like long hours; I like starting out as a Cad Monkey and an errand boy; I like that I don't have a life except for my Architecture career; I like that I have limited time to spend with my family and freinds; I like to spend my hours not being appreciated; I love to draw; I like to build 2-D/3-D renderings; I like to build models; I like that others steal my ideas and call them their own; I like being passionate when no one else is or cares; I like that I work hard to prove to the boss that I know what I am doing only to get nowhere; I like that co-workers think that they are better than me and that they have something to prove; I like to do unrelated Architecture tasks; I like that I will be in debt for the next 100 years; I like to prove that clients are not always right but I typically fail in my attempt; and above all, wearing a bow tie kicks butt :)
IF YES, then → "Apply to Architecture School" → kick butt and become an Architect.
IF NO, then ↓
I have other interests and I am good at doing something else that will reward me financially and will offer me the opportunity to succeed and will allow me to spend time with the ones I love, then → do not apply to Architecture school, do not become an Architect, select something else, do not pass "Go".
Please feel free to add to this and I will be happy to continue the list...
if you are worried about being in debt and not making too much money to pay it off, consider going to a lower profile school that maybe wont put you in debt.
ive been working since i finished undergrad in 02 and while i was in grad school till 06 and no one has ever cared what school i went to as long as i could do my job.
on the other hand, at a high profile school, you probably get a good contact base and resources through alumni will definitely come in handy when you are done with school.
if you are expecting to make 100k before you are 30, chances are this isnt for you
Should I go to grad school? Where? Then what?
Hey all...long time reader, first time poster. I decided not to go to law school this year, in part because I had/have this idea that architecture school was where I belonged, and I have a few questions for anyone who cares to weigh in.
Some background: I just turned 26. Would enter school as I turn 27. Went to Harvard. Studied philosophy and did fine. I want to work in NY, SF or LA eventually.
First off: does anyone have any clue about the admissions rates at UCLA, Berkeley, Harvard, Yale? I'm totally in the dark. In a perfect world I'd end up at one of those but have no idea about the odds I'm up against. Also, any other school suggestions welcome.
Second: I've looked at the salaray poll and...jeez...really??!? At the best boutique firms you're making 55k several years out of school? How do people pay off debts....ever?
Finally: Looked at the "Like Your Job?" thread and seems like there are lots of frustrated architects out there. For those of you who are really into it, who feel fulfilled, what's your story? What did you do for school and what kind of environment are you in now?
Extra credit: how hard is it to set up your own practice and how soon can you do it?
Thanks a lot in advance for any replies.
most of your questions are answered in various threads on archinect. otherwise, you've left us with an awful lot of questions to absorb and they almost all have long answers.
the short answer is, yes, architects can be underpaid and frustrated. if you love it, those things become irrelevant.
if you know how to run a business, you could conceivable set up shop while still in school - though you couldn't call yourself an architect. you'd be a designer until registered. you won't be able to get registered until at least 3-4 yrs after you've graduated. so you'll be, what, probably 33-34? if you don't know how to run a business already, i'd suggest waiting and working for someone else and seeing how that goes first.
but that's all premature. when you get into school, all of your plans will change. when you are in school for a while, all of your plans will change again. when you graduate, all of your plans will change...
Even shorter answer: you should have gone to law school.
Ha!!! I was on the verge of posting "some smartass out there is no doubt going to post "Go to law school" and DubK steps right up!!! Wahoo!!!
More in a minute....
Sorry, that sounds bitter. But for the salary you could make as a lawyer you could hire an architect to be your full time partner and fulfill all of your design fantasies through them, plus have enough left over to buy a beamer or something.
Again, some short answers as I've got limited time this morning:
-people don't pay off their debts, ever. Most architects are broke or on the verge. If you are interested in building things, real estate dvelopment is far mroe rewarding financially and you can work with architects you like so you are manifesting good design work in the world. Being a lawyer turned developer isn't an impossible shift. The salary difference between lawyers and architects is vast while the work/stress load is pretty much the same, so if that's a real issues for you, you should think hard about it.
-the single most important element of starting your own business, IMO, is a strong network of non-architects. You could, conceivably, go to law school, build a network of aquaintances in the lawyer world, and start doing small design jobs on the side, building yourself into a design business through word-of-mouth among your wealthy lawyer friends. But you'll never be able to call yourself "an architect" unless you get an accredited degree and do a 3-year internship and pass the exams. This may or may not be important to you, lots of residential designers are not licensed.
Maybe it would help if you told us why you are attracted to architecture school? What is it that turns you on about architecture? I'm sure we can quickly de-romanticize it for you ;)
my debts are paid off.
the un-answered issue is acceptance rates- note that most of the programs you've asked about have 60 to 80 students enroll each year. most students apply to multiple schools (and may only be accepted once). So you are looking at a best case scenario of 4 applicants for every spot to twice this for the most competive programs (oh they are all competitive).
If we go back to the 'why yale sucks' thread- yale really cares about your grades and gre scores.
harvard (as you know) cares about who your daddy is.
UCLA cares if you are blond and beautiful/
and berkeley cares if you can inhale...
there are other schools out there- don't fall for the 'name' quotiant when chosing. What are your interests, passions, and peeves?
there is an architecture school out there for everybody. (even if it's DeVry's Building Technology program)
architecture is a scam.
as a philosopher you should know that the answers are inside you
Like I said, AP03, if you tell us what your interest is you might get more helpful responses here. If you've been reading for a long time you know how many smart-asses there are here, come on, guys, let's try to be helpful!
(bossman I hear your comment in a Yoda-like voice)
i wish i'd have gone to law school :( especially after looking through these freakin contracts all morning...
Lb, let me defend my answer, as it is smartasstic. Scam - meaning architecture is foremost a technical trade, and it's artistic core lies in the realm of craft based philosophy. By scam I mean to denounce the educational advertisements put forth by our beloved institutions that architecture is somehow integral to the production of civilization, whereas its just as easily argued its a product of civilization. When someone can actually define architecture, I will believe it not a scam. The saving grace here is that as an architect we can sell it anway we like or can afford.
2) Yes.
3) The reason there is a lot of frustration in architecture is because we tend to be really passionate about what we do, otherwise (see #2) we wouldn't bother doing it. It is easier to get frustrated when you love something and have high expectations for it. I find that people in other fields on the whole seem "happier" with their jobs precisely because the jobs are stupid and boring and the people don't care about them. These people go home at 5pm, leave the work at the job, and derive what happiness they have solely from their home life. Architecture isn't like that. If you're doing it, it's because you derive immense pleasure from it, and therefore your happiness partially depends on what you do at work; therefore the stakes are higher and frustration is more likely to occur. On the other hand, absolutely awesome days at work when you LOVE your job and LOVE your life are also more likely to occur.
So there you have it. If anyone ever asks about this again I'm going to repeat this verbatim.
But what about super happy motivated architecture lovers who are not really any good at it? Production or design wise.
Hey, thanks for the comments. Really helpful actually.
I decided not to go to law school cause the idea of a job without any creative element scared the sh*t out of me. So I'm almost afraid to ask: how much creativity can I expect to have coming out of school?
This is what attracts me to architecture. 1) The creative element. You're making aesthetic things. 2) The eventual possibility for self-employment. 3) I like how all these other fields are related to architecture...psychology, history, philosophy, environmental science. It's like what I love about art plus some humanities and science thrown in. 4) I'm convinced we need lots more "sustainable" design and I want to contribute. 5) I just think I'd be happy tinkering with balsa wood and glue guns for years on end.
Ok, disabuse me of these fantasies...
Thanks again.
Oh, I found that Yale is somewhere in the 20-30% range. Others are probably similar.
i wish i'd have gone to law school. all i seem to do is look through contracts these days.
can I re-write your question: "how much creative input can I expect to have coming out of school?"
It's easier to fall out of love with architecture after 15 years of paycheck-to-paycheck living than it is after only 3 years of it. Young and idealistic and starving is one thing, 40 and a parent is another.
One thing I (still) love about architecture is simply that you're working with material things. The law, for example, is based in words and ideas, it's not concrete. I love making concrete decisions: be it "aesthetic" like which tile will look great in this shower, or "technical" like we should build this addition slab on grade rather than wood on a crawl space.
Today I hate the profession because I'm broke. It's the end of the month and I'm flat broke. But I still get excited when the contractor calls and says he's faxed over shop drawings of the custom vanity cabinet for me to approve.
This isn't helping you at all, AP03, but that's what is running through my head right now.
I guess how it relates to your comments above, AP03, is that you emphasize making aesthetic decisions. Be aware that the aesthetic aspect, in a typical building, is only maybe 10% of the decision-making process, the other 90% is technical decisions aka how do we get it built without blowing the budget. For many of us, this aspect of "designing" - because it is all, as Old Fogey said, design, whether aestehetic or technical - is as easy to fall in love with as the aesthetic part. It's not always pretty, but if you find a way to love the nuts and bolts too, you'll be another deeply frustrated yet also deeply satisfied architect (and you'll be broke).
I think Steven Ward nailed it... If you love it, all the bullshit is irrelevent.
Me-
$50k in debt out of school.
$67k in debt after 3 years after working for a well known boutique. Worth it.
$97k in debt after 3 years of running my own office.
Worth it.
At the rate I'm going I gonna beat Louis Kahn with debt when I die ($500k). I love what I'm doing and I'm building what I want so its worth it...
Yeah libertybelle--best feelings at the end of the day are: a) seeing something you drew come out in reality really beautifully--touching it, handling it, admiring it glowing there before you--and b) hearing clients tell you over and over how much they LOVE what you've done for them!
It's amazing to me that we get to walk away from our jobs at the end of the day and leave behind something beautiful that got actually made.
I'm 100% certain law school is not for me. Plans B and C are hedge fund work (soulless but lucrative) and non-profit work (morally valuable but intellectually boring).
Libertybell: thanks. I can see myself really enjoying the nuts and bolts technical decisions and this kind of work, where I'm motivated to do even the "drudgery", is what I want. And yes, the working with material things is, for whatever reason, something that gets me off too. I guess I'm naturally pretty tactile and visually oriented.
Setting up your own practice is probably the dream of many architects and it's mine too. Can't you make decent money this way? How wide is the gulf between the starchitects and the rest? How much do the heads of successful 2-15 person boutiques make in SF, for example?
Thanks for all your help people.
the most profitable size firm to run is between 16-19 people with one principal. The key to making money as an architect is to have other people doing the work for you. LB- if you manage the transition from your hands on practice, to inspiring others to make everything happen for you, then you will have bank at the end of the month & year. but this is a topic for another thread (oh, we discussed this a while ago). Practices of this size can easily make a profit of $500k+ (per my esteemed professional practice instructor). Architects don't have to be broke, you just have to be great at negociating your fees and managing the projects. Remember, you don't want to get hired for being the cheapest.
AP03- If you have the aptitude to love the banal and tedious technical stuff (what part of law is anything but that), then you'll be a great architect. Just don't get dreams of starchitecture and of global domination. Good luck!
yes but you may get to design where to put the door schedule on the page. please, don't mess it up.
this entry is so depressing
Wow silverlake. Wow. This isn't schadenfreude but your post makes me feel so much better as I am still $20K in debt from school loans plus $20K in debt while working for myself and I've only been in private practice for 18 months!
here is how i am trying to pay off my $140k loan. please pass it on.
http://architshirts.com/
"Architects don't have to be broke, you just have to be great at negociating your fees and managing the projects"
...and be damn lucky...if it were only so simple
Get your M.Arch, become an architect, marry a lawyer.
Decision tree short answer to your question:
Architecture is my passion and my life → "Yes" → Apply to Architecture School → kick butt and become an Architect.
Architecture is not my passion, I have other options that interest me → "No" → do not apply to Architecture school, do not become an Architect, select something else, do not pass "Go".
Sorry for the sarcasm and directness, but it really does boil down to this:)
.
the problem with your diagram kitty kat is that everyone answers yes to the passion question when they are contemplating the decision. I know I did and look how I turned out.
buy a small shop and build ...power tools is where it's at
:
sh*t - my logic is flawed ;)
It's so funny and sad to realize that a lot of us (architects) say we are passionate about what we do and money doesn't buy happiness... same stuff that we've been hearing/saying since our school days (liked to touch materials, loved LEGO, loved to do something creative, blah blah blah). I do know that it's very important to do what you love to do, but you know what, reality sucks. It all would make sense, if this becomes reality:
I went out with my wife and had fancy dinner, and oh boy, the restaurant accepted my Platinum "Creativity" card. I paid off my student loan with this awesome "my love of architecture." Hey, I get to send my kids to the top prep schools with my life savings of "passion for architecture." I just purchased my dream home with my "pleasure doing architecture."
Of course, very few lucky ones who has been blessed with architectural talent, or born in rich family, will make that top .001% of being starchitects.
Decision Tree Matrix Revision per vado commentary:
Architecture is my passion because I like long hours; I like starting out as a Cad Monkey and an errand boy; I like that I don't have a life except for my Architecture career; I like that I have limited time to spend with my family and freinds; I like to spend my hours not being appreciated; I love to draw; I like to build 2-D/3-D renderings; I like to build models; I like that others steal my ideas and call them their own; I like being passionate when no one else is or cares; I like that I work hard to prove to the boss that I know what I am doing only to get nowhere; I like that co-workers think that they are better than me and that they have something to prove; I like to do unrelated Architecture tasks; I like that I will be in debt for the next 100 years; I like to prove that clients are not always right but I typically fail in my attempt; and above all, wearing a bow tie kicks butt :)
IF YES, then → "Apply to Architecture School" → kick butt and become an Architect.
IF NO, then
↓
I have other interests and I am good at doing something else that will reward me financially and will offer me the opportunity to succeed and will allow me to spend time with the ones I love, then → do not apply to Architecture school, do not become an Architect, select something else, do not pass "Go".
Please feel free to add to this and I will be happy to continue the list...
BANG!*
if you are worried about being in debt and not making too much money to pay it off, consider going to a lower profile school that maybe wont put you in debt.
ive been working since i finished undergrad in 02 and while i was in grad school till 06 and no one has ever cared what school i went to as long as i could do my job.
on the other hand, at a high profile school, you probably get a good contact base and resources through alumni will definitely come in handy when you are done with school.
if you are expecting to make 100k before you are 30, chances are this isnt for you
what about become a lawyer and design the firm... doctors do it...
though your process diagram was brilliant, katze, the most impt thing i got out of it was 'damn! how did she make those arrows?'
i know! from the character map, which microsoft started hiding at some version shortly after windows 3.1?!
Now I don't know what direction I am going! I'm all confused.
↖ ↗
↙ ↘
somethin only a tech fellow would know...
↘ ↙
↗ ↖
⇺ ⋃ ≡ ⋄ ⇈ ⊝ ⌞
und Gesundheit!
↚ ↔ Eindrucksvoll! ↔ ↚
right mouse button
view source
control c
control v (several times)
exchange and change some of the numbers
you've seen the other archinect poster I'm with stupid>>>? Well, I'm stupid.
sheetrock,
i like these ones...funny
dammson, that's a pretty fancy graphic :) you fancy graphic lover you!
singing in the shower – You've revealed the research I've been working on over the last 5 years – there goes my tech fellow award – shit :)
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